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Reincarnation

560 posts · 25 participants · started Jun 2, 2017, 2:41 PM

  1. G’day everyone,

    Salute Urantia4me,

    Always interesting sharing personals point of view about philosophy, religions.

    def. Reincarnation refers to the belief that an aspect of every human being (or all living beings in some cultures) continues to exist after death, this aspect may be the soul or mind or consciousness or something transcendent which is reborn in an interconnected cycle of existence.

    Frankly, U4me, it’s a logical approach to examine physical, terrestrial, Urantian’s matter. And, interesting debate.

    Down here, it is subject to a countless perception. Bradley DO verbalize and consciously circonspect all of it through his process of reflective reasoning.

    me4U,

    Ommm …. to all

     

  2. Hello again everyone (especially to Andre – I apologize for not knowing how to get the accent mark to appear over the “e” in your name):

    I agree with you, Andre – reincarnation is a fascinating subject, especially for those of us who are very curious about exploring the mysteries of life/reality.  Whenever I share ideas/opinion, please know that I do NOT claim to have perfect knowledge on any subject; I simply like to exam things as honestly and as logically as I can, and I love discussions with others who share similar curiosities and approaches to discovering truths, even if they don’t necessarily agree with me.  However, I am not so fond of people who are narrow-minded or closed-minded on any subject; it just makes more sense to learn as much as possible while alive on this Earth.  And if something is true, then it should hold up to scrutiny, so in one sense, there is no need for some people to be so defensive when exchanging; in fact, we should welcome our ideas to be HONESTLY tested by others, which is unlike how the Pharisees questioned Jesus, simply trying to discredit him instead of testing his ideas for the purpose of learning.  For me, I value cross-referencing as many varied sources as possible on any subject, especially controversial topics.  You (Andre) seem like someone who shares my enthusiasm for learning – I will take time to read more of your writings within the Urantia forum, presenting comments and questions as I think of them, and hopefully others will benefit from our exchange of ideas!  Most of the time, I will write on weekends, for I work on weekdays.

    By the way, a belated happy birthday to Jesus, who according to the Urantia book, was born on August 21st in the year 7 BC at 12 Noon! I love the precise language used throughout the Urantia book – every word of every sentence matters, and is used as efficiently as possible – it’s amazing even for that reason alone, but there are many more reasons to consider the Urantia book as a “must-read” source of information!

    Blessings to all of you,

    Michael

  3. Hello Bradly!  Sorry I didn’t see your reply to my last post in this forum.  In time, you will see that our ideas as NOT as different as you may be currently perceiving them to be; I blame myself for not expressing myself more clearly in my posts, for when I wrote that previous post, it was way past my normal bedtime!  But I will gradually share other ideas on this subject, when I have more time to write.  Before I get ready to go to work soon, let me say that I am aware that the Urantia book, the Bible and Swedenborg all agree that humans only get one lifetime on the surface of Earth.  You may be surprised that I am seriously factoring that idea into my personal worldview, which is more like a buffet of ideas, not just one traditional worldview, but my main criteria is that the ideas must make sense to me and be logical in some reasonable form.  That was the idea I originally began with, but there is SOME reasonable logic within what I have read about reincarnation.  Thus, whenever I see to ideas that make sense in their own ways but seem to contradict each other – like destiny versus freewill – I also consider the possibility that my limited human perspectives are keeping me from seeing the (potential or likely) harmony that exists between them.  That is why I recommended learning the basics ideas of Swedenborg regarding reincarnation; NOT for the purpose of changing what you currently believe, but simply to add to your overall knowledge.  It’s the difference between reading one book on a particular topic versus reading 10 books on that same topic – educated, enhanced perceptions.  I shall also read more of your posts on other topics as well, Bradly!

    Best regards,

    Michael

  4. Thus, whenever I see to ideas that make sense in their own ways but seem to contradict each other – like destiny versus freewill – I also consider the possibility that my limited human perspectives are keeping me from seeing the (potential or likely) harmony that exists between them.

    Yeah, I like that.  I’ve always thought that if something doesn’t make sense to me that it might possibly be my own fault . . . hence the need to ask questions and do some detective work before jumping to conclusions, especially if the first conclusion that occurs to me is negative, dissenting or critical.

    Personally I don’t see a contradiction between destiny and free will, but I can easily see where it can seem problematic.

  5. Hi,

    Couldn’t agreed more on your ways to approach persons and subjects Michaël.

    Care have been taken from you  setting the table, it’s always a good and factual consideration to bring to one’s mind this awareness.

    “ no need for some people to be so defensive when exchanging; in fact, we should welcome our ideas to be HONESTLY tested by others.”

    Looking forward Michael to feast what will be put on the table.

    Warm regard,

    André

  6. Hello Bradly! Sorry I didn’t see your reply to my last post in this forum. In time, you will see that our ideas as NOT as different as you may be currently perceiving them to be; I blame myself for not expressing myself more clearly in my posts, for when I wrote that previous post, it was way past my normal bedtime! But I will gradually share other ideas on this subject, when I have more time to write. Before I get ready to go to work soon, let me say that I am aware that the Urantia book, the Bible and Swedenborg all agree that humans only get one lifetime on the surface of Earth. You may be surprised that I am seriously factoring that idea into my personal worldview, which is more like a buffet of ideas, not just one traditional worldview, but my main criteria is that the ideas must make sense to me and be logical in some reasonable form. That was the idea I originally began with, but there is SOME reasonable logic within what I have read about reincarnation. Thus, whenever I see to ideas that make sense in their own ways but seem to contradict each other – like destiny versus freewill – I also consider the possibility that my limited human perspectives are keeping me from seeing the (potential or likely) harmony that exists between them. That is why I recommended learning the basics ideas of Swedenborg regarding reincarnation; NOT for the purpose of changing what you currently believe, but simply to add to your overall knowledge. It’s the difference between reading one book on a particular topic versus reading 10 books on that same topic – educated, enhanced perceptions. I shall also read more of your posts on other topics as well, Bradly! Best regards, Michael

    Michael- I would not be surprised by our mutual agreements on a good number of truths and reality perspective.  I am unaware so far of any disagreement but surely there will be some differences in our experiential perspective.   No worries.

    There is, after all, only one reality if so many perspectives of it.  And yet I think it is not so unusual for thinking people inspired by the Spirit within to share a view of life and the universe that is not dependent upon details so much as scope and scale.

    To share a particular presentation of such details as we do here truly creates an interesting environment for study and contemplation as we share its contents.

    The appeal to me of reincarnation was the accurate belief of mine that material death does not deliver some form of magical perfection for experiential beings.  This Christian myth is so illogical and uninspiring.  A progressive growth and enlightening experience seemed far more plausible.

     

    Again…welcome.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  7. Hello Bonita, Andre, and Bradly!

    Let me try to reply to each of you within this one reply, offering ideas along the way…

    I will get back to the subject of reincarnation, but I am wondering (Bonita) how you currently view the harmony between destiny and free will (or rather free choice, which I thought was the same thing until I recently read a good book called “The Revelation of Ramala” which explains how/why there is a significant difference).  I’m also curious if the Urantia book makes a similar distinction between freewill and free choice.  By the way, have all of you noticed how carefully/thoroughly the Urantia defines/explains words/ideas?!  And how awesome that the Urantia book shows exactly which parts of the Bible are true/accurate, and which parts are not so true/accurate – and each time, the Urantia book make perfect sense, such as what happened after the baptism of Jesus – some big differences between the two books!

    But (Bradly), I don’t totally dismiss the Bible, for as the Urantia book indicates, it too was a revelation when its various parts were originally being written.  I fully realize the Bible is not nearly as pure as it once was, for even when people try to preserve original meanings and connotations, things are lost when translating from one language into another.  That I’m certain is a current challenge for the Urantia Foundation as well.  If you go with a literal word-for-word translation, you may lose the spirit of the message, and it will likely be quite an awkward reading.  If you try to capture the spirit of the message in the most common languages today, you run the risk of losing original meanings of words.  But with the Bible’s history, you also had various church leaders selectively choosing what would be included in the Bible.  Thus, even the Bible refers to the book of Enoch within the “book” of Jude, the book of Enoch is NOT included in the standard Bibles.

    (For all, including Andre)… as we seek truth and learn, we should appreciate how knowledge builds upon previous knowledge, and be aware that our gradually-increasing capabilities of understanding/grasping truth is taken into consideration by those more advanced beings who are revealing layers of truth to us in stages.  Consider how we as individual humans gradually learn about basic astronomy, such as “the sun rising and the sun setting”.  Adults say it that way to young children because that is all they can typically understand about astronomy at a young age.  However, when we grow older and learn about astronomy in school, our teachers explain how the Earth revolves around the Sun, and not vice-versa; thus in reality, the Sun is not setting or rising.  But when we first learn that, I don’t recall anyone claiming that adults lied to us about the sun “rising and setting”; likewise, I now choose to view the relationship between the Bible and the Urantia book in a similar way, with the Urantia book greatly explaining (and enhancing our understanding of) the Bible.  Truth should ideally be revealed in stages that correspond to our gradually-increasing levels of understanding.  Throughout much of modern human history, most people were uneducated and illiterate, orally passing along information for many generations; hence it was absolutely necessary to present truths often in the form of children stories, like the biblical story of Adam and Eve.  But notice the time period when the Urantia book was provided by various advanced/celestial beings – science was firmly established worldwide, and many people globally had become relatively educated.  And don’t be surprised if someday in the distant future that another revelation will be needed for humanity, but isn’t that a natural part of human evolution – a natural consequence of continual learning?!

    By the way, one of the most impressive/intriguing things about the Urantia book is how it gives so much detail about what individuals were thinking when they made important decisions, like what Jesus contemplated shortly after his baptism, and like what Adam and Eve were thinking before and after they “fell from grace” by changing the original plans that they had agreed upon.  And the Urantia book even gives the how and why it is known what Adam and Eve thought and felt – because the same being(s) who presented the Urantia papers on that topic was/were there (at that time in the presence of Adam and Eve)!  As you can see, excitement about some topics causes me to take detours :-)

    Now about reincarnation, I did a google search for “Urantia” & “reincarnation” and one of the weblinks that showed up was from the Urantia Book Fellowship – something very good produced by Dean White.  I was pleasantly surprised when I reached last paragraph of his comments on reincarnation… “After exploring some of these questions I am now more inclined to answer questions about reincarnation with a more positive statement about many lifetimes in an ascension plan similar to reincarnation, or with an affirmation that Urantia [book] does allow for experiences of previous lives.  It certainly challenges us to search for enhanced perspective on all our conflicts.”  That closely captures the overall point I was hoping to make in my prior posts, but here is an added thought from me – suppose metaphysical literature for the past 100 years has actually succeeded in explaining real processes from particular SIMPLE/GENERAL perspectives, while the Urantia book also succeeded in explaining real processes from it’s particular COMPLEX/SPECIFIC perspectives, the latter one not necessarily nullifying the former one – that is what I am currently considering about reincarnation, similar to how I view the relationship between the Bible and the Urantia book.  And yet again, I would like to share some ideas that I have recently been thinking of after reading a book about Multiple Personality Disorder (which has since been renamed), regarding the relationship between the conscious human awareness (and the on-the-surface ego personality) and the subconscious awareness (and the below-the-surface ego personalities), and how that may be related to our perceptions of reincarnation, but it will take a while to explain my ideas in depth, and it is 3am my time, so to sleep I must soon go!

    Good night and good day – until next time…Michael

  8. I’m also curious if the Urantia book makes a similar distinction between freewill and free choice.

    It describes the relativity of choice, but the freedom to choose within that relative range is incontrovertible.

    118.6.4  All volition is relative. In the originating sense, only the Father-I AM possesses finality of volition; in the absolute sense, only the Father, the Son, and the Spirit exhibit the prerogatives of volition unconditioned by time and unlimited by space. Mortal man is endowed with free will, the power of choice, and though such choosing is not absolute, nevertheless, it is relatively final on the finite level and concerning the destiny of the choosing personality.

    118.8.1  In the time-space creations, free will is hedged about with restraints, with limitations. Material-life evolution is first mechanical, then mind activated, and (after the bestowal of personality) it may become spirit directed. Organic evolution on the inhabited worlds is physically limited by the potentials of the original physical-life implantations of the Life Carriers.

    118.9.2  Mechanisms produced by higher minds function to liberate their creative sources but to some degree unvaryingly limit the action of all subordinate intelligences. To the creatures of the universes this limitation becomes apparent as the mechanism of the universes. Man does not have unfettered free will; there are limits to his range of choice, but within the radius of this choice his will is relatively sovereign.

  9. I too still admire the wisdom and historical record of fact and fable to be found in the Bible, including a very robust record of the Jesusonian Gospel.  The UB teaches that some of the OT originates from ancient Egypt and even earlier.

    It also makes the distinction between the UB and the Bible that the first is an Epochal Revelation gifted to mortals by celestials and the latter is a very human work and collection of inspired truths, fables founded in reality, and pure fictions of nationalism and cultural ego…very human indeed.

    I have always enjoyed this unifying and harmonizing teaching too:

    103:6.2 (1135.4) When man approaches the study and examination of his universe from the outside, he brings into being the various physical sciences; when he approaches the research of himself and the universe from the inside,he gives origin to theology and metaphysics. The later art of philosophy develops in an effort to harmonize the many discrepancies which are destined at first to appear between the findings and teachings of these two diametrically opposite avenues of approaching the universe of things and beings.

    103:6.3 (1135.5) Religion has to do with the spiritual viewpoint, the awareness of the insideness of human experience. Man’s spiritual nature affords him the opportunity of turning the universe outside in. It is therefore true that, viewed exclusively from the insideness of personality experience, all creation appears to be spiritual in nature.

    103:6.4 (1135.6) When man analytically inspects the universe through the material endowments of his physical senses and associated mind perception, the cosmos appears to be mechanical and energy-material. Such a technique of studying reality consists in turning the universe inside out.

    103:6.5 (1135.7) A logical and consistent philosophic concept of the universe cannot be built up on the postulations of either materialism or spiritism, for both of these systems of thinking, when universally applied, are compelled to view the cosmos in distortion, the former contacting with a universe turned inside out, the latter realizing the nature of a universe turned outside in. Never, then, can either science or religion, in and of themselves, standing alone, hope to gain an adequate understanding of universal truths and relationships without the guidance of human philosophy and the illumination of divine revelation.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  10. Thank you Bonita and Bradly – you both seem skillful in finding very relevant sections in the Urantia book for various topics, from what I have read in this forum thus far.  I wish I was a speed reader, for I read at a pace that may take me well over a year to read the entire Urantia book; for now, I look in the Table of Contents and just read the sections that interest me – having the actual book is very nice.  Today I read the section on the Seven Mansion Worlds and was totally impressed, and it put things (I have read and pondered from other sources) into perspective for me – such as reincarnation – and also influenced me to consider some things I had not thought of until today, which I will share with you now…

    This chapter in the Urantia book seems to show the most complete picture of what happens after each of us physically dies.  (By the way, have you all heard of that parable of the 3 blind men who each grabbed a different part of an elephant and thought that they each knew exactly what an elephant is like?  One man grabbed the tail and said an elephant is like a rope.  The 2nd man grabbed a leg and said an elephant is like a tree, and 3rd man grabbed the trunk and said an elephant is like a big snake.  They all possessed real parts but misinterpreted each of their parts as the whole.  In similar fashion, I realize that much of what I have learned over the years from church, from school, and from books on metaphysics is more like pieces of a bigger puzzle rather than the entire puzzle, but the Urantia book seems like a GIANT piece of the bigger puzzle – or possibly the whole puzzle – for those seeking answers to life’s biggest questions.  But since I have told you that I like to cross-reference multiple sources, please consider these personal observations)…

    To me, this section covering the Seven Mansion Worlds seems related to Edgar Cayce’s discussion on Planetary Sojourns.  It also seems related to why the Ramala source (that I mentioned in a prior post) states that we humans cannot evolve beyond this solar system UNTIL we learn (after physical death, in the Astral realm) from our experiences gained on the 7 main planets in our solar system (as they exist within the Astral realm, since we are assuming we only live one lifetime in the physical 3D realm.  Would it surprise you to hear that each planet in our solar system – maybe all planets in our universe are multi-dimensional beyond our 3D awareness – exists simultaneously in what we would call mutiple planes/dimensions?!  Even the U.S. military recently declassified documents in which they admit that our Earth has both a 3D existence and a 4D existence, and that some of the ETs are visiting Earth in the physical 3rd dimension from Earth in the 4th dimension.  If you don’t believe that, I will certainly understand your skepticism, but thinking in those terms may help to understand some additional ideas that I will eventually share with you, in addition to understanding ideas in the Urantia book.  Likewise, each living human body possesses 7 main chakras that correspond to 7 subtle energy bodies that combine to form our composite soul bodies, though typically we do not sense the presence of those subtle bodies with our 5 senses.  So now I will speculate that each time we “graduate” from a Mansion World, another corresponding part of our composite soul body (which corresponds to its respective Mansion World) “merges” with the next subtle energy body within our composite soul body.  (In the case of our physical body, we simple leave that body to disintegrate – a different set of physics exists in the Astral dimension, which has 7 main levels.)  Can you see why I was excited to read about the Seven Mansion Worlds in the Urantia book?  It fits very well with what I had recently learned (in pieces) elsewhere!

    Now I want to speculate why so many people for so much of Earth’s history have believed in reincarnation…traditional ideas of reincarnation MAY be a natural but misinterpreted side-effect of an individual consciousness attempting to distinguish itself from a group/collective consciousness.  We already know from psychology that each person’s subconscious mind connects its individual conscious awareness to humanity’s collective consciousness.  So theoretically, I could unconsciously assume the memories of experiences of ANY person in the past to be my own memories.  But if that is true, then how can we know that our memories are truly our own?  That makes me wonder if that is a partial reason why the Urantia book says we are assigned Thought Adjusters after our first moral choice, often around age 6.  Age 6 also happens to be around the time when children who have demonstrated knowledge of the past lives of other people (as clearly proven in the brief TV series, “The Ghost Within My Child”, as well as some cases documented by Ian Stevenson – I think that was his name) seem to quickly forget about the past lives by age 7 or 8.  Maybe Thought Adjusters limit how much our individual minds access humanity’s collective consciousness, partly for the purpose of letting only the skills and interests of particular persons from the past potentially influence us at a subconscious level in order to “guide” us (for proper development) without directly interfering with our freedom of choice?!  (This paragraph was somewhat related to the ideas I had after reading a book about Multiple Personality Disorder.)

    I will be curious to see what each of you (including Andre) thinks of what I have been pondering lately.  I intend to soon read the next chapter called the Morontia Life, and then consider what else in my mind the Urantia book may shed light upon :-)   I’m supposed to go out of town for the weekend, so starting on Friday, there may be 5 days or so that I won’t be able to check this forum for replies, but I hope to check it at least one more time before I leave.  Hope everyone is doing well; if not, feel free to ask me for ideas, for I have read much (and tried much) regarding natural remedies and alternative medicine, and have access to medical books as well.  But if anyone seeks relationship or financial advice, I’m probably not the best person to ask; I’ve learned much after 2 marriages, but not soon enough to save them.  But after reading about the Seven Mansion Worlds, I think I know how part of my time in the afterlife will be spent!

    Blessings to all of you!  Michael

     

  11. Hi fellows,

    Hi Michael,

    Prolific thinker, flowing out of all sources that comes into your hands. Creative ideas, imaginative orchestration. What could be better to stimulate,arouse congeners? I am all in Michael.

    TUB (the urantia book)

    132:7.9 … the revelation of God to man through, and in, Jesus…. And it was, and is, ever thus. That which the enlightened and reflective human imagination of spiritual teaching and leading wholeheartedly and unselfishly wants to do and be, becomes measurably creative in accordance with the degree of mortal dedication to the divine doing of the Father’s will. When man goes in partnership with God, great things may, and do, happen.

    Thank you,

    André

     

  12. Greetings Michael and Friends!!

     

    Yes…the elephant examinations and description is very humorous and illuminating.   The UB teaches that such methods are recommended,  that is to seek out the reality perspective and philosophy and metaphysics and religious experience of other believers to find triangulation and widen the lens of view and to tame prejudices and narrow mindedness and entrenchment.

    While there is only one universe reality , each being has a very personal and subjective and therefore limited lens with which to view that objective reality.  We are taught that objectivity is desirable and inherently achieved by time and education and experience and maturity and wisdom and that anything less than those results in our very subjective and partial and inaccurate beliefs about reality.

    While the sharing of multiple “blind” or limited , subjective perspectives does not result in an accurate and objective view of reality, nonetheless does the seeking of others’ views contribute to our own in important ways.

    As to collective conscious …hmmm.  An interesting topic.  Complicated.  Consider a keyword search for “reflectivity” in the UB and here at TRUTHBOOK.  The TA’s certainly have access to that circuit and have their own.  God the Supreme is the Divine repository of all experience and expression of truth, beauty , and goodness in time and space.   Our own mortal and personal access to these collections of conscious, thought, experience, and expression is another matter…but there is no hive mind or collective consciousness taught within the UB as I understand the term to mean.

    So I would agree our access to any other “mind” is limited and controlled…if it is allowable at all.  I think memory is less reliable for mortals than celestials due to the electro/chemical interface of the brain and the inherent inferiorities thusly imposed upon mortal/material mind.  We are subject to implanted/created/false memories as well as embellished/distorted/edited memories and the memory imprints of fiction and fantasy and transfer and adoption.  The mind which can transcend time and material limits can certainly create great mischief and distortions in our thinking….and especially so our remembering and even more especially so in our early and formative childhood years when fiction and invention and imagination blur the distinctions between reality and fantasy!

    The TV series you cite certainly “proves” nothing at all except the power of mind and its ability to invent and distort realities which are not at all real.  The UB warns us of the very real dangers in associating thoughts, images, feelings, and beliefs with truth, reality, and contact with the Spirit…or the so called collective mind/conscious.

     

    False memory
    Psychological Phenomenon
    A false memory is a psychological phenomenon where a person recalls something that did not happen or that something happened differently from the way it actually happened. This phenomenon was initially investigated by psychological pioneers Pierre Janet and Sigmund Freud. Elizabeth Loftus has, since her debuting research project in 1974, been a lead researcher in memory recovery and false memories.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory

    All mind has one origin and source.  All individual thoughts are known and archived and integrated and actualized and made into new realities and new potentials by Deity but not by or of or in itself as a so called collective conscious …or so I understand the teachings.

     

    Best wishes in your reading.

    :-)

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  13. As far as your dimensional claims are concerned Michael….the UB does, I think, affirm and concur that the Morontial estate is another level of dimensional reality between the dimensions of the material reality and the purely spirit realities and that the morontial reality is a spectrum of levels of reality dimension which we will traverse over time between our material life on our planet of birth and origin and Paradise.

    Those celestial beings which attend, serve, manage, administer, lead, and rule our world are all around us.  A few of them can be seen by mortal/material eye upon their intention to be so seen.  Each level of being has a range of “vision” which allows them to “see” other beings within a certain limited spectrum of shared positional reality.  You may be interested to know that there are those spirits which cannot discern material levels of reality as we cannot discern morontial or spirit levels.  But more interesting is to consider that because of our origin as pure material and evolutionary beings who ascend and transcend one level of reality to another all the way to pure spirit form in Paradise, that we become the ONLY beings in all the universe of universes to be equally adept and aware within every level of reality and conversant and familiar with every level of being and creature and mind in all the universes of both time and eternity.

    The last shall be first.  Indeed we are taught that us lowly beings will come to help perfect and eternal beings to “compensate” for the limitations of their perfection by our experiential perspective and wisdom gained by struggle and growth.

    The number 7 is the natural expression of the potential combinations of 3, the Trinity functionality in the universes while the number 10 is the mathematical base for the material realities of time and space.

    42:9.2 (479.7) The number seven is basic to the central universe and the spiritual system of inherent transmissions of character, but the number ten, the decimal system, is inherent in energy, matter, and the material creation. Nevertheless the atomic world does display a certain periodic characterization which recurs in groups of seven—a birthmark carried by this material world indicative of its far-distant spiritual origin.

    42:9.3 (480.1) This sevenfold persistence of creative constitution is exhibited in the chemical domains as a recurrence of similar physical and chemical properties in segregated periods of seven when the basic elements are arranged in the order of their atomic weights. When the Urantia chemical elements are thus arranged in a row, any given quality or property tends to recur by sevens. This periodic change by sevens recurs diminishingly and with variations throughout the entire chemical table, being most markedly observable in the earlier or lighter atomic groupings. Starting from any one element, after noting some one property, such a quality will change for six consecutive elements, but on reaching the eighth, it tends to reappear, that is, the eighth chemically active element resembles the first, the ninth the second, and so on. Such a fact of the physical world unmistakably points to the sevenfold constitution of ancestral energy and is indicative of the fundamental reality of the sevenfold diversity of the creations of time and space. Man should also note that there are seven colors in the natural spectrum.

    I appreciate your perspective on the limitations self imposed by the Spirit within to protect our freewill and our self determination thereby.  We do not personally have any form of pre-life or pre-existence we are taught and neither do we have pre-determined outcomes or fates.  We determine our experience and our expression of that experience.  We are taught that the angels and the Spirit within do utilize circumstances and situations and relationships and intersections of decisions to guide us and to teach us and it is by our response to all such intersections of choice that are those seeds sown which deliver the harvest we reap.  But we do reap what WE sow by our own self determined motives, intentions, priorities, and decisions.

    Let me say clearly that we discuss what the UB teaches according to the recall and understanding by each of us here.  That posted which is not text is opinion.  I do not say disagreement with the UB is wrong….only that it disagrees with the text which we share in study here together.  It is not important to me who believes the claims of the UB and who does not.  It is important to me that the UB speak for itself.  To that end, I always encourage the actual reading of the text by all students and it has become a most trusted reference source of truth and fact to me over many readings.

    Best wishes!

     

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  14. Even the U.S. military recently declassified documents in which they admit that our Earth has both a 3D existence and a 4D existence, and that some of the ETs are visiting Earth in the physical 3rd dimension from Earth in the 4th dimension.

    Have you had a chance to read up on morontia reality yet?

    16:4.5 Unquestionably, when we encounter the functional activities of the various Morontia Power Supervisors, we are face to face with certain of the unrevealed activities of the Master Spirits. Who, aside from these ancestors of both physical controllers and spirit ministers, could have contrived so to combine and associate material and spiritual energies as to produce a hitherto nonexistent phase of universe reality — morontia substance and morontia mind?

    Likewise, each living human body possesses 7 main chakras that correspond to 7 subtle energy bodies that combine to form our composite soul bodies, though typically we do not sense the presence of those subtle bodies with our 5 senses.

    We have only one soul and it does not exist within the physical body according to TUB.  The soul is a morontia reality which consists of more than just energy, and whatever energy it has is morontial.  Morontia reality does not function within the physical realm.

    0:5.10 4. Soul. The soul of man is an experiential acquirement. As a mortal creature chooses to “do the will of the Father in heaven,” so the indwelling spirit becomes the father of a new reality in human experience. The mortal and material mind is the mother of this same emerging reality. The substance of this new reality is neither material nor spiritual — it is morontial. This is the emerging and immortal soul which is destined to survive mortal death and begin the Paradise ascension.

    So now I will speculate that each time we “graduate” from a Mansion World, another corresponding part of our composite soul body (which corresponds to its respective Mansion World) “merges” with the next subtle energy body within our composite soul body.

    The mansion worlds are where mortals “merge” with their Thought Adjuster.  It’s called fusion.  What you are attempting to describe above, TUB calls “spiritualization”.  Becoming more Godlike in the next life makes a mortal more spiritual and less morontial, hence the need for 570 ascending forms.

    5:1.3 Although the approach to the Paradise presence of the Father must await your attainment of the highest finite levels of spirit progression, you should rejoice in the recognition of the ever-present possibility of immediate communion with the bestowal spirit of the Father so intimately associated with your inner soul and your spiritualizing self.

    48:1.5 From the time of leaving the material worlds until you are constituted a first-stage spirit on Salvington, you will undergo just 570 separate and ascending morontia changes. Eight of these occur in the system, seventy-one in the constellation, and 491 during the sojourn on the spheres of Salvington.

    48:1.6 In the days of the mortal flesh the divine spirit indwells you, almost as a thing apart — in reality an invasion of man by the bestowed spirit of the Universal Father. But in the morontia life the spirit will become a real part of your personality, and as you successively pass through the 570 progressive transformations, you ascend from the material to the spiritual estate of creature life.

    We already know from psychology that each person’s subconscious mind connects its individual conscious awareness to humanity’s collective consciousness.

    I think it’s more likely that the seven adjutant mind spirits are the collective consciousness of the planet, but they do not cross-fertilize from one individual to another, nor between animals, or animals and humans.  Our minds are an individualized circuit of the cosmic mind ministered to by the adjutants, and after the birth of the soul, also by higher spirit ministries including the Adjuster.   Minds do run in channels with similarities in terms of the mechanisms of thought, but not in the actual sharing of data unless done so by free-will choice.  That’s not to exclude the fact that anything within the human consciousness is immediately available to the Divine Minister.

    16:6.3 The fact of the cosmic mind explains the kinship of various types of human and superhuman minds. Not only are kindred spirits attracted to each other, but kindred minds are also very fraternal and inclined towards co-operation the one with the other. Human minds are sometimes observed to be running in channels of astonishing similarity and inexplicable agreement.

    Hope everyone is doing well; if not, feel free to ask me for ideas, for I have read much (and tried much) regarding natural remedies and alternative medicine, and have access to medical books as well.

    A physician myself who has dabbled in the same.

     

  15. Greetings!  Bravo on the replies to my most recent post – you all have proved that there are still thoughtful, intelligent people in the world!  I wish I had time thoroughly reply to each of you, but the coming day is my last day to prepare for my trip.  BUT, I did read the 4 most recent posts – very thorough replies.  I appreciate the extensive knowledge and devotion that you – Bradly and Bonita – have regarding the UB.  And I am glad that Andre can truly relate to my genuineness as a fellow truth seeker.  I am generally aware of some people claiming false memories are the most rational answer to the beliefs in reincarnation, and if I were a mainstream atheist or mainstream Christian, I would easily place my bets on that claims, but I no longer consider myself either one or the other who so quickly dismisses the claims of others.  But Bradly, I will consider “false memories” as a possibility for now.

    It may help you all to know that I used to whole-heartedly promote mainstream Christian teachings, sometimes debating with others, including those who promoted reincarnation.  If I had remained faithful to those beliefs, I would have NEVER considered reading the UB, and what a loss that would have been for me!  So now I hesitate to think of things being so black and white, or something being either this way or that way.  I try to carefully consider all reasonable possibilities for any subject, thinking in terms of “likely”, “not likely”, or “cannot determine at this time,” which gives me flexibility to revise my beliefs as I continue to learn.  Keeping an open mind has gotten me quite far, even to this point of having such good discussions with all of you :-)   And Bonita, I have not yet read the chapter on Morontia life, other than your interesting quotes from that chapter, but I will, likely after I return from my trip.  And nice to know that you are a physician who has dabbled in natural medicine.  I once had a member of my church tell me that taking herbs was comparable to witchcraft; I left mainstream Christianity shortly thereafter, not exactly for that reason – more because of too much narrow-mindedness.

    Unfortunately, I have not tried to find the section I once read in the UB that says it’s “not exactly true reincarnation”, which to me implies that the celestial beings that produced the UB papers are fully aware of humans understandably misinterpreting a real & common phenomenon.  However, I don’t think the 570 transformations (except perhaps the first 8 transformations) are that which humans are misinterpreting as reincarnation; it seems like it should be something “closer to home”; that’s why I have considered Carl Jung’s concept of the collective conscious of humanity, as well as the Akashic records as an alternative explanation to traditional ideas of reincarnation.  But have no fear, Andre – I will be keeping my personal library as it is for now, which includes a variety of interesting books, some that assume reincarnation is basically reaping what we have sown beyond the boundaries of one physical lifetime.  In the meantime, I will continue to read and seriously consider the possibility that the UB is a genuine, divine revelation, not merely another reference book.  Take care everyone…

    Michael

  16. Hi,

    As far I can remembered Ministry-Deities always work for me including my participation. Books, radio program, exibition hall centered on metaphysics (philosophy).
    I was driven by insatiable curiosity. Philosophy/Religion/Mind was and are constant concern. With TUB a signpost, up to date revelations were a beacon to shed light on all humans perspectives to explain logically our relative reality.

    Previously, Bradley and Bonita, do it by putting in perspectives all those phylosophic,religious and mind matter using TUB’s cornerstone.

    Thank you,

    André

     

  17. Michael says above: “If I had remained faithful to those beliefs, I would have NEVER considered reading the UB, and what a loss that would have been for me! So now I hesitate to think of things being so black and white, or something being either this way or that way. I try to carefully consider all reasonable possibilities for any subject, thinking in terms of “likely”, “not likely”, or “cannot determine at this time,” which gives me flexibility to revise my beliefs as I continue to learn. Keeping an open mind has gotten me quite far, even to this point of having such good discussions with all of you.”

    Beliefs are so helpful and so limiting all at the same time!!  The mortal experience is filled with all manner of paradox and conundrum.  One of my favorite Zen teachings is reinforced throughout the UB:  Things are not as they appear.  And neither are they different!!

    Things are not as we believe but they can be no different either!  And yet the mortal mind cannot function as designed and believe in nothing.  Prior to study of the UB I concluded that beliefs were critical to our spirituality.  That false beliefs could not be transcended spiritually.  Papers 100-103 certainly changed that false perception and belief!!!  Knowledge and facts of universe reality are eventually critical to experiential wisdom and spiritization of being…but are nearly irrelevant to traversing the Psychic Circles and successful survival of the material life and even fusion with our God Fragment within!  Those all depend almost exclusively on truth, faith, and relationship with the Spirit within…all of which can be quite successful without facts or true beliefs and even with totally false beliefs and reality constructs (metaphysics) by children, primitives, the ignorant and uneducated, and the superstitious and stupid.

    No matter how false our beliefs, still can we discern the Spirit and respond to the Spirit and grow in the Spirit and give birth to soul and grow soul and survive this material life AND grow the fruits of the Spirit and enjoy peace, happiness, joy, confidence, and inner assurance by connection to the Divine nature within.  So we do not need true beliefs but we can become faith children with totally false beliefs and prejudice!!  (Prejudice being a blind loyalty to our own beliefs which prevents careful consideration of “all reasonable possibilities”.)

    The authors do tell us however that facts and knowledge of reality are very important to progress and a balanced and integrated and functional perspective and philosophy.  Indeed, they say that the value of periodic and epochal revelation is the reduction in confusion and the elimination of the errors of false beliefs and incomplete metaphysics….or understanding and view of reality.

    Here’s a link to the very few quotes that include the term “reincarnation”:

    https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/search?keys=reincarnation&op=Search

     

    Enjoy your week!  I look forward to your return.

    ;-)

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  18. . . . that’s why I have considered Carl Jung’s concept of the collective conscious of humanity . . .

    I think Carl Jung theorized about the collective UNconscious, no?   He claimed it had to do with mythological motifs and images which  surface either as subconscious symbols of dreams or collective symbols of cultural mythos.  There are a lot of similarities in Joseph Campbell’s work.  There is no question that man has an inherent tendency toward myth making.

    4:5.1 Religious tradition is the imperfectly preserved record of the experiences of the God-knowing men of past ages, but such records are untrustworthy as guides for religious living or as the source of true information about the Universal Father. Such ancient beliefs have been invariably altered by the fact that primitive man was a mythmaker.

     

  19. Hello everyone – I’m back from my trip, and I just read the recent posts – you all give so many good things to consider!  Let me work backwards…You are right, Bonita, about Carl Jung describing the collective UNconscious of humanity as it relates to archetypes; forgive me for sometimes mixing and matching ideas that I have read/heard, and then unintentionally using terms that are not as accurate in a strict sense, but still capture the general ideas behind the main points that I attempt to make.  And thank you Bradly for not only your comments but also the weblink – one of the first 2 quotes regarding the word reincarnation was what I had read, though the texts does not say word for word “not exactly reincarnation” ; again, I refer back to my aforementioned comment to Bonita, who always provides good, relevant quotes from TUB.  You do also Bradly, but you write at such a level that I sometimes need to re-read your replies :-)   And Andre still understands me very well; likewise, even though I have only read a fraction of TUB, it is most definitely a signpost for all of us to factor into our personal worldviews.

    One thing that you all have made me realize is that we each are approaching this subject from not only somewhat different viewpoints, but we are also using different terminology based on our different viewpoints, which is making it a bit of a challenge for us, similar to how language barriers can cause unnecessary friction.  For example, what if life in the Astral realm (as described in good metaphysical books) is actually the same as the first 7-8 Mansion Worlds which are part of Morontia Life (as described by TUB)?!  And what if life at the Quantum level (as described by Quantum physicists) is actually the same as BOTH, meaning we are all trying to describe the same “elephant” using the terminology we are most familiar with, especially with regard to the topic of (potential versus actual) “simultaneous realities”?!  After I read the chapter on Morontia Life, I hope to be better able to answer that last “what if” question.

    To me, considering that as a real possibility/probability could then help to explain why so many people MAY have been misinterpreting “something real” as reincarnation.  At best, even real psychics, mediums, and mystics have only been seeing glimpses of “the afterlife”, and without seeing the big picture, it could be easy for them to misinterpret “simultaneous realities” (which MAY be a result of the natural laws that constitute Astral/Quantum/Morontia Life) as “sequential reincarnation” occurring on Earth/Urantia.  As a related analogy, on Earth, we hear/learn that we humans are to change and adapt to our environment; in the afterlife, I have heard/learned that our thoughts and emotions immediately influence our environment to change and adapt to us humans – do you see the difference?!  And isn’t that greater reality a little bit like how our physical brains “correct” the upside-down images that come into our eyes into right-side up images?!  Ok, enough pondering  by me for tonite.

    Looking forward to all of your replies :-)

    Michael

  20. (I don’t know what happened to the post I just uploaded – I posted it and then saw an error that I tried to edit, then I submitted it again, but now I don’t see my post at all – can anyone explain why?)

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