Okay then. Thanks André, you’ve solved the mystery. There’s something in your tag line that changes the formatting. Would it be possible for the moderator to address this issue, please?
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Reincarnation
560 posts · 25 participants · started Jun 2, 2017, 2:41 PM
Have you never seen/read dream interpretation books?!
Oh yes! For years and years I tried to figure out dreams. I have journals upon journals of my dreams and shelves of books on everything mystical. Don’t forget my mother, the ultimate occultist. I, myself, have had hundreds of so-called prophetic dreams, out of body experiences and other adventures I cannot share which have given me much insight into how this whole thing works. TUB is right about all of it. Thank God for TUB which states that dream interpretation is based on primitive superstition. If it hadn’t been for TUB, some of those experiences might very well have made me into a crazed religious fanatic. Thankfully I’ve remained balanced . . . somewhat ????.
150:3.9 7. The interpretation of dreams is largely a superstitious and groundless system of ignorant and fantastic speculation.
86:5.11 All down through the ages men have stood in awe of the apparitions of the night season, and the Hebrews were no exception. They truly believed that God spoke to them in dreams, despite the injunctions of Moses against this idea. And Moses was right, for ordinary dreams are not the methods employed by the personalities of the spiritual world when they seek to communicate with material beings.
When you get a chance, do a search in TUB on the ghost dream and the breath-dream. There’s a lot of enlightening material there.
Also Bonita, I gather from a previous post that you have had some level of belief in the Bible; have you not read about Joseph in the book of Genesis interpreting the dreams of the Pharaoh in Egypt, and how Joseph said God enabled him to interpret dreams?! His correct interpretation of Pharaoh’s dreams enabled them to stockpile food during 7 years of plenty which enabled the people of Egypt to survive the next 7 years of famine. Why would dreams have value and meaning then but not now?! Learning how to correctly interpret dreams is the key.
Absolutely. There are such dreams, but they are not ordinary dreams. Ordinary dreams are garbled streams from the subconscious psyche. The dreams of actual celestial communication are extra-ordinary and extremely rare. Here are a few described in TUB: 48:6.21; 122:4.1; 122:8.6; 135:01
Very interesting, Bonita! Thanks again for the Urantia quotes, this time on the topic of dreams. Since the soul has connection to both the subconscious and the superconscious mind, that would explain my earlier post about dreams (and the subconscious, of which I was not fully distinguishing the superconscious from the subconscious but should have, for Cayce also talked about that as well – so did Dolores Cannon) as being “a mixed bag of goodies”. But I still find value in the dreams originating from the subconscious, for it allows me to better identify and attempt to tame/correct that lower animal part of my thoughts and emotions that I may not have been paying attention to but should. You all will laugh at this dream – I once dreamed that I was a monkey traveling from place to place with my group! The freedom of movement felt so good, but we always had to keep a lookout for rival monkey groups, which I did see before I woke up
There is another curious thought I have often had about the supposed purpose of reincarnation, which is, “If learning life lessons is the main reason to keep having lifetimes as physical humans upon the surface of the Earth, why then can’t we simply learn those lessons in the afterlife?!” Interesting how the Urantia Book has already greatly addressed that question!Since the soul has connection to both the subconscious and the superconscious mind,
That’s not correct according to TUB. The soul does not have a connection to the subconscious. They are miles apart and made of different substances. The soul is supermaterial, the subconscious is material, never the twain shall meet. They are entirely separate levels of consciousness. The conscious mind, however, does touch upon both levels of consciousness and it is the conscious mind that must make sense of it all.
Thoughts that arise in the superconscious must get filtered by the conscious mind in order to be understood, which is what causes all the distortion. The subconscious also has to become conscious in order to get filtered, and therein also lies distortion primarily because the subconscious is cluttered with thoughts that have yet to become organized and given meaning. Only thoughts with meaning make it into the conscious mind, which is its purpose. The rest of one’s experience with the outer world lies beneath the surface awaiting the opportunity to be categorized and given meaning.
On the other hand, superconscious thinking is an experience of the inner world and it is something that can be cultivated through spiritual insight, but even those new meanings are attached within the conscious mind. The conscious mind is all man has to work with despite the experiences of other levels of consciousness. It all gets filtered through the conscious mind, which is why both spiritual experiences and subconscious emanations seem so foreign and are so difficult to describe.
103:6.6 Always must man’s inner spirit depend for its expression and self-realization upon the mechanism and technique of the mind. Likewise must man’s outer experience of material reality be predicated on the mind consciousness of the experiencing personality. Therefore are the spiritual and the material, the inner and the outer, human experiences always correlated with the mind function and conditioned, as to their conscious realization, by the mind activity. Man experiences matter in his mind; he experiences spiritual reality in the soul but becomes conscious of this experience in his mind. The intellect is the harmonizer and the ever-present conditioner and qualifier of the sum total of mortal experience. Both energy-things and spirit values are colored by their interpretation through the mind media of consciousness.
What does connect the various levels of consciousness is mind ministry. There are many different types of mind ministry designed to aid us in unifying thought. That subject is a huge one. It would require you to do much more reading and digesting, so perhaps later.
Greetings Michael!!
You write above: “Another reference in the Morontia Life chapter indicates that we (meaning our morontia souls) will eventually experience all potential realities (as actual realities) that could have been experienced by us within our particular dispensations (on the surface of the physical planet Earth). Thus, if I were able to perceive the morontia environment, it’s reasonable to consider that I (from my limited human ways of thinking) could misinterpret those potential, simultaneous realities (in the morontia environment) as actual, sequential lifetimes (in the physical Earth environment). Since we humans will be perfectly reconstructed in the resurrection chambers on the 1st mansion world, I think we can also safely assume that the 1st mansion world environment may also appear as a perfect reconstruction of the physical Earth environment, at least from our current, physical human point of view. By the way, I have read one or more references in the Urantia Book that says our soul’s morontia life experiences have already begun (most active when we are sleeping) while we are still living as physical humans on the surface of Earth! That could also be why so many humans are convinced that we have had past lives!”
None of the architectural spheres are replications of the evolutionary worlds…..so no….the Mansion Worlds are not “a perfect reconstruction of the physical Earth environment”. Please remember that these worlds are for an entire System and not any single evolutionary planet’s ascendant survivors. We will be among survivors of up to 1000 worlds including Earth. We will still eat and drink and I do think much will seem very familiar to us….but far more beautiful and grand and glorious!! Let me suggest Paper 44 for a description of the Divinely appointed architectural spheres throughout the universes of time and space!!
As I have said before, reincarnation is not of human origin. It is the distorted remnant of the early and ancient teachings about the universe ascendant adventure. There is simply no reason to continue seeking its source or meaning or distortions over time. Joseph Campbell and many others have well demonstrated the singular source of so many myths, fables, and tales held in common by cultures all over the planet, passed orally for thousands of generations….which naturally results in unique distortions and contortions, but at their center is the seed of common origin. Reincarnation is simply one of those…a fictionalized fact from the teachings of the long ago celestials in The Garden or even prior.
48:1.1 (541.4) The morontia realms are the local universe liaison spheres between the material and spiritual levels of creature existence. This morontia life has been known on Urantia since the early days of the Planetary Prince. From time to time this transition state has been taught to mortals, and the concept, in distorted form, has found a place in present-day religions.
48:1.2 (541.5) The morontia spheres are the transition phases of mortal ascension through the progression worlds of the local universe. Only the seven worlds surrounding the finaliters’ sphere of the local systems are called mansion worlds, but all fifty-six of the system transition abodes, in common with the higher spheres around the constellations and the universe headquarters, are called morontia worlds. These creations partake of the physical beauty and the morontia grandeur of the local universe headquarters spheres.
48:2.22 (544.5) While the basic morontia forms of life and matter are identical from the first mansion world to the last universe transition sphere, there is a functional progression which gradually extends from the material to the spiritual. Your adaptation to this basically uniform but successively advancing and spiritizing creation is effected by this selective re-keying. Such an adjustment in the mechanism of personality is tantamount to a new creation, notwithstanding that you retain the same morontia form.
48:2.23 (544.6) You may repeatedly subject yourself to the test of these examiners, and as soon as you register adequate spiritual achievement, they will gladly certify you for advanced standing. These progressive changes result in altered reactions to the morontia environment, such as modifications in food requirements and numerous other personal practices.
48:8.4 (558.2) In traversing the ascending scale of living existence from mortal man to the Deity embrace, you actually live the very life of every possible phase and stage of perfected creature existence within the limits of the present universe age. From mortal man to Paradise finaliter embraces all that now can be—encompasses everything presently possible to the living orders of intelligent, perfected finite creature beings. If the future destiny of the Paradise finaliters is service in new universes now in the making, it is assured that in this new and future creation there will be no created orders of experiential beings whose lives will be wholly different from those which mortal finaliters have lived on some world as a part of their ascending training, as one of the stages of their agelong progress from animal to angel and from angel to spirit and from spirit to God.
112:6.1 (1235.5) Just as a butterfly emerges from the caterpillar stage, so will the true personalities of human beings emerge on the mansion worlds, for the first time revealed apart from their onetime enshroudment in the material flesh. The morontia career in the local universe has to do with the continued elevation of the personality mechanism from the beginning morontia level of soul existence up to the final morontia level of progressive spirituality.
I believe you have confused the work of the Adjuster with the soul’s self consciousness and volitional growth. It is true the Adjuster works during sleep, which may be due to less interference at various stages of slumber (?). But the soul grows and functions while we are awake and conscious and as the material mind discerns, decides, and understands that which contributes to soul. Soul becomes the other nature I think of our dual natures – material and spirit – and we are enticed and led to transfer the seat of our personal identity from our material self to our spirit self….this process is the transitional growth experience of traversing the 7 Circles of Progress and Spiritization. We become more morontially oriented in this life as the soul grows and we conquer the 7 Circles. This progression is probably also related to the historical and modern religious beliefs related to reincarnation.
All of life is about stages and levels of ascendant acquirement and experience, slowly growing and perfecting over time. The fiction of reincarnation is still a far superior belief than the Christian instant-perfection by mortal death beliefs. Reincarnation beliefs demand attention to growth and progress and the importance of freewill choices and the function of evolutionary progress in self and social and universal progress!! Nonetheless, reincarnation is inferior to reality itself and there simply is no cause for its perpetuation and prejudicial embrace. No one returns to the planet of birth and origin. No one progresses by a regressive rebirth as animal or insect. Progress is progressive and planned and managed with great attention to education and the development of experiential wisdom!!
110:6.1 (1209.1) The sum total of personality realization on a material world is contained within the successive conquest of the seven psychic circles of mortal potentiality. Entrance upon the seventh circle marks the beginning of true human personality function. Completion of the first circle denotes the relative maturity of the mortal being. Though the traversal of the seven circles of cosmic growth does not equal fusion with the Adjuster, the mastery of these circles marks the attainment of those steps which are preliminary to Adjuster fusion.
110:6.2 (1209.2) The Adjuster is your equal partner in the attainment of the seven circles—the achievement of comparative mortal maturity. The Adjuster ascends the circles with you from the seventh to the first but progresses to the status of supremacy and self-activity quite independent of the active co-operation of the mortal mind.
110:6.3 (1209.3) The psychic circles are not exclusively intellectual, neither are they wholly morontial; they have to do with personality status, mind attainment, soul growth, and Adjuster attunement. The successful traversal of these levels demands the harmonious functioning of the entire personality, not merely of some one phase thereof. The growth of the parts does not equal the true maturation of the whole; the parts really grow in proportion to the expansion of the entire self—the whole self—material, intellectual, and spiritual.
Sorry you find my writing to be so difficult to understand. I appreciate your efforts to understand my words. Glad you are here!!
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
I believe you have confused the work of the Adjuster with the soul’s self consciousness and volitional growth.
For clarity, I would like to point out that the soul does not have volition of its own. Only personality has volition. The personality may delegate authority to the soul during this life, but it is the personality and only the personality in control of volition. By using the phrase “volitional growth” I think Bradly means conscious decisions made by the personality which result in soul growth.
111:3.2 Neither does the soul make final decisions until death or translation divorces it from material association with the mortal mind except when and as this material mind delegates such authority freely and willingly to such a morontia soul of associated function. During life the mortal will, the personality power of decision-choice, is resident in the material mind circuits; as terrestrial mortal growth proceeds, this self, with its priceless powers of choice, becomes increasingly identified with the emerging morontia-soul entity; after death and following the mansion world resurrection, the human personality is completely identified with the morontia self. The soul is thus the embryo of the future morontia vehicle of personality identity.
Thank you Bonita!!
I do think I am confused. There is only one personality for volitional choices and yet, the soul is the emerging ME from the material ME which does lend itself to some confusion I think!! I would very much appreciate your consideration of the following and your comments and any related text you feel relevant. Thanks very much!!
100:1.6 (1095.1) Religious experience is markedly influenced by physical health, inherited temperament, and social environment. But these temporal conditions do not inhibit inner spiritual progress by a soul dedicated to the doing of the will of the Father in heaven. There are present in all normal mortals certain innate drives toward growth and self-realization which function if they are not specifically inhibited. The certain technique of fostering this constitutive endowment of the potential of spiritual growth is to maintain an attitude of wholehearted devotion to supreme values.
Is dedicated volitional?? Are all souls thusly dedicated inherently and without individual volition? Or is the human mind that is so dedicated?
100:2.3 (1095.7) Religion can progress to that level of experience whereon it becomes an enlightened and wise technique of spiritual reaction to the universe. Such a glorified religion can function on three levels of human personality: the intellectual, the morontial, and the spiritual; upon the mind, in the evolving soul, and with the indwelling spirit.
100:4.3 (1097.7) But the great problem of religious living consists in the task of unifying the soul powers of the personality by the dominance of love. Health, mental efficiency, and happiness arise from the unification of physical systems, mind systems, and spirit systems. Of health and sanity man understands much, but of happiness he has truly realized very little. The highest happiness is indissolubly linked with spiritual progress. Spiritual growth yields lasting joy, peace which passes all understanding.
Do you think this might mean that soul has volition through the single, shared personality of the mortal mind?
101:3.2 (1108.1) Faith-insight, or spiritual intuition, is the endowment of the cosmic mind in association with the Thought Adjuster, which is the Father’s gift to man. Spiritual reason, soul intelligence, is the endowment of the Holy Spirit, the Creative Spirit’s gift to man. Spiritual philosophy, the wisdom of spirit realities, is the endowment of the Spirit of Truth, the combined gift of the bestowal Sons to the children of men. And the co-ordination and interassociation of these spirit endowments constitute man a spirit personality in potential destiny.
I believe that soul function and growth is related to the topic but we could open a different topic for such a discussion if you wish. I am keenly interested in your thoughts and understanding related to soul…thanks again!!
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
I would very much appreciate your consideration of the following and your comments and any related text you feel relevant. Thanks very much!!
What exactly is your question?
So the conscious mind awareness is like a hub of a wheel for us, with the other kinds of conscious like the spokes of the wheel. Could someone explain how we can borrow someone else’s mind, as the Urantia Book suggests we borrow the mind of Jesus. I never quite understood a similar comment in the Bible either. Thanks for all your clarifications, Bonita and Bradly.
Oh wait, I just noticed questions imbedded in the quotes. Do you know that if you highlight your quote and hit the ” icon in the toolbar that the entire quote will indent and be a slightly different shade. Then hit return to start a new line to type your question and hit ” again. The formatting will change for the new line pushing the margin outward so it can be differentiated from the quote.
100:1.6 (1095.1) Religious experience is markedly influenced by physical health, inherited temperament, and social environment. But these temporal conditions do not inhibit inner spiritual progress by a soul dedicated to the doing of the will of the Father in heaven. There are present in all normal mortals certain innate drives toward growth and self-realization which function if they are not specifically inhibited. The certain technique of fostering this constitutive endowment of the potential of spiritual growth is to maintain an attitude of wholehearted devotion to supreme values.
Is dedicated volitional?? Are all souls thusly dedicated inherently and without individual volition? Or is the human mind that is so dedicated?
First of all, in the quote above, the word soul is a generality, meaning a moral being. It’s referring to the entire self who has a soul, and the self includes personality. TUB does that quite a bit because it assumes all humans who are reading have souls. They also use the word heart that way. Heart and soul, referring to the morally perceptive and spiritually progressing self. Selfhood has many parts.
In this quote the word dedication is volitional, but it is the personality who is in charge of choosing to dedicate itself to doing God’s will. In order to do that, the soul must be involved because there is no way to know what God’s will is without spiritual insight into the soul. A personality chooses to discover, recognize, interpret and act upon what it finds in the soul.
All souls begin to grow in and of themselves from the moment they are born. That does not mean the soul has volition, it means the soul has influence in its own growth. It has innate spiritual urges just like the human mind has innate adjutant urges. The soul’s urges for continued growth are perceptible by the human mind; they are felt, as in the feeling of the presence of God. This requires spiritual insight.
A mind open to the urges of the soul is a mind with a personality who has accepted the gifts of faith and spiritual insight, and according to the capacity of that faith and insight, heeds those urges when directed by the personality. Said differently, the personality can use its power of will to dedicate the human mind to discover, recognize and interpret those inner urges. Or, the personality can choose to ignore those urges and thwart the work of the Adjuster within the soul who is always seeking for moral material input necessary for soul growth. I would say for the most part that the urges of the soul actually come from the Adjuster. I’ve produced the quotes for this information so many times now I’m positive you already know what they are. If Michael wants to know, I’ll dig them up as a courtesy to a newbie.
But for the sake of discussion, here’s a quote that talks about the mind being dedicated. It’s similar to the idea of the soul being dedicated. What they mean is that the personality chooses to use its power of choice to devote mental energy to the task of discovering, recognizing, interpreting and doing God’s will.
133:7.12 The human mind does not well stand the conflict of double allegiance. It is a severe strain on the soul to undergo the experience of an effort to serve both good and evil. The supremely happy and efficiently unified mind is the one wholly dedicated to the doing of the will of the Father in heaven. Unresolved conflicts destroy unity and may terminate in mind disruption. But the survival character of a soul is not fostered by attempting to secure peace of mind at any price, by the surrender of noble aspirations, and by the compromise of spiritual ideals; rather is such peace attained by the stalwart assertion of the triumph of that which is true, and this victory is achieved in the overcoming of evil with the potent force of good.
So the conscious mind awareness is like a hub of a wheel for us, with the other kinds of conscious like the spokes of the wheel.
I don’t see consciousness as the spokes of a wheel, but I do visualize concentric circles of consciousness.
urantia4me wrote:Could someone explain how we can borrow someone else’s mind, as the Urantia Book suggests we borrow the mind of Jesus.The mind of Jesus is in your soul. The Spirit of Truth is the personification of Jesus, which includes his mind, spirit and personality. All you need to do is develop some soul-consciousness, then discover his presence there. Bingo! you have full access to his mind, according to your capacity to recognize it.100:2.3 (1095.7) Religion can progress to that level of experience whereon it becomes an enlightened and wise technique of spiritual reaction to the universe. Such a glorified religion can function on three levels of human personality: the intellectual, the morontial, and the spiritual; upon the mind, in the evolving soul, and with the indwelling spirit.
100:4.3 (1097.7) But the great problem of religious living consists in the task of unifying the soul powers of the personality by the dominance of love. Health, mental efficiency, and happiness arise from the unification of physical systems, mind systems, and spirit systems. Of health and sanity man understands much, but of happiness he has truly realized very little. The highest happiness is indissolubly linked with spiritual progress. Spiritual growth yields lasting joy, peace which passes all understanding.
Do you think this might mean that soul has volition through the single, shared personality of the mortal mind?
Well, the first quote describes all the parts of the self excluding the body: 1.) personality; 2.) mind; 3.) soul; 4.) spirit. Personality is the only part of the self that has the power of choice, but choice cannot be expressed without mind because mind is required to recognize choices. The soul is also minded. There are choices that come to consciousness within the lower material mind and there are choices that come to consciousness in the upper soul mind. The personality gets to pick because the personality has the benefit of two minds. When the personality chooses the upper soul mind options, and acts on them, the soul grows.
So yes, there’s one personality and two minds who share it, but the power of volition belongs solely to the personality. That’s how the personality eventually evolves its dominance from a natural identification with the lower mind to a survivable identification with the upper mind, the soul.
The soul powers of the personality, referred to in the second quote are the same as personality credits. It’s spiritual power, the supermaterial power of the Holy Spirit (supermind of the soul), not volition. Soul powers are the gifts of faith, grace, insight, sonship, righteousness and others. These gifts are of the soul, part of soul intelligence (supermind, Holy Spirit), and are not understood by the human material mind. They are simply felt.
48:7.6 4. Few mortals ever dare to draw anything like the sum of personality credits established by the combined ministries of nature and grace. The majority of impoverished souls are truly rich, but they refuse to believe it.
111:6.8 It is only natural that mortal man should be harassed by feelings of insecurity as he views himself inextricably bound to nature while he possesses spiritual powers wholly transcendent to all things temporal and finite. Only religious confidence — living faith — can sustain man amid such difficult and perplexing problems.
Hello – sorry that I was away from my computer for a while – I read the replies but not much free time to reply. For Bradly and Bonita, continue to reply as you normally do – eventually I will get up to speed, for I do plan to read more of the Urantia Book and set aside my other books for a while. HOWEVER, anytime you two can think of useful, familiar analogies, please use them; don’t worry Bonita – those are not as difficult as creating parables
Perhaps some things can be compared with aspects of computer technology, such as the software, hardware, and the internet. Or maybe the structure of well-known organizations/businesses could provide useful analogies. Or maybe compare things in TUB with things in nature. You know, the thought crossed my mind years ago that perhaps the higher beings want to “breed out” our animal traits using reincarnation; what surprised me is that while TUB dismisses reincarnation, TUB DOES indicate that we humans are intended to rid ourselves of our animal traits. By the way, as I read Bonita’s comments yesterday about the personality and the lower mind and upper mind, I was also thinking of Freud’s idea of the Id, Ego, and Super Ego.Normally cross-referencing multiple sources helps me learn faster, but some of you faithful Urantians were right – cross-referencing THIS book with others is hindering me from learning important concepts in this book. There’s SO MUCH unique information, as well as unique perspectives on a wide range of topics! So if I am away from this forum at times, don’t assume that I lost interest – I may simply be reading the Urantia Book at night before bedtime instead of getting on my computer. Speaking of sleep, I will go for now; it’s almost 1:30 am my time.
TUB DOES indicate that we humans are intended to rid ourselves of our animal traits.
I don’t think it’s possible to get rid of animal traits until we’re no longer animals. What TUB recommends is that we learn to master our animal traits and grow new divine traits . . . it’s a soul thing.
143:2.8 “If, then, my children, you are born of the spirit, you are forever delivered from the self-conscious bondage of a life of self-denial and watchcare over the desires of the flesh, and you are translated into the joyous kingdom of the spirit, whence you spontaneously show forth the fruits of the spirit in your daily lives; and the fruits of the spirit are the essence of the highest type of enjoyable and ennobling self-control, even the heights of terrestrial mortal attainment–true self-mastery.”
By the way, as I read Bonita’s comments yesterday about the personality and the lower mind and upper mind, I was also thinking of Freud’s idea of the Id, Ego, and Super Ego.
There are interesting analogies there, but the superego has nothing to do with the superconscious or the soul. Freud’s superego is the conscience. The conscience exists in the middle level of consciousness, the adjutant material mind. The conscience is humanly derived. The superconscious is spirit derived. Both the superego and the ego identify with the adjutant material mind. It’s the alter-ego which identifies with the soul. That’s a difficult concept to wrap your mind around because the term alter ego has some distorted psychological connotations which do not apply to this situation. The alter ego is who the ego is striving to become, and in a religious person, that would be Godlike in nature.
Conscience is defined as “the moral and ethical content of the mores of any current stage of existence” . . . it represents the “humanly conceived ideal of reaction in any given set of circumstances” and manifests as the “criticism of oneself by one’s own value-habits, personal ideals.”
Quotes regarding the conscience:
92:2.6 Religion has at one time or another sanctioned all sorts of contrary and inconsistent behavior, has at some time approved of practically all that is now regarded as immoral or sinful. Conscience, untaught by experience and unaided by reason, never has been, and never can be, a safe and unerring guide to human conduct. Conscience is not a divine voice speaking to the human soul. It is merely the sum total of the moral and ethical content of the mores of any current stage of existence; it simply represents the humanly conceived ideal of reaction in any given set of circumstances.
100:1.5 Growth is also predicated on the discovery of selfhood accompanied by self-criticism — conscience, for conscience is really the criticism of oneself by one’s own value-habits, personal ideals.
110:5.1 Do not confuse and confound the mission and influence of the Adjuster with what is commonly called conscience; they are not directly related. Conscience is a human and purely psychic reaction. It is not to be despised, but it is hardly the voice of God to the soul, which indeed the Adjuster’s would be if such a voice could be heard. Conscience, rightly, admonishes you to do right; but the Adjuster, in addition, endeavors to tell you what truly is right; that is, when and as you are able to perceive the Monitor’s leading.
Hello Bonita and others – I am still around but have been busier than normal lately, so no recent comments on the Forum until now. On Saturday night, I was reading about some of the helpful study aids that are on the main Urantia book website. Of course, because of my particular interests, I read about how the Forum began with William Sadler’s core group and the “contacted person” that puzzled Sadler Sr. for several years before one of the entities who communicated through the “sleeping person” said something like, “If you knew who you were talking to, you would ask more serious questions for the advancement of humanity”! The complete story is fascinating! One or more of the investigators who eventually formed the Forum knew this was nothing like the inferior forms of psychic-related phenomenon; to some of the researchers, it was supernatural/superhuman, while some others remained skeptical for quite a while as the Urantia papers were gradually produced. Just as I silently read that part of the story, my wife (who was asleep the whole time I read and was completely unaware of what I was reading) suddenly started giggling/laughing in her sleep, which I had never witnessed her do before that night! At first I wasn’t sure if she was laughing or crying. I kept asking if she was OK, but then she resumed her normally quiet sleeping.
What surprised me was what she told me the next day regarding the reason she was giggling. It was due to her dreaming about a “little man who she knew was doing supernatural things, while others who observed the little man thought he was only doing magic tricks!” Keep in mind that my wife has NOT read or shown any interest in the Urantia book, until I told her what I was reading at the very moment she began giggling – what an odd coincidence! I apologize for this NOT being related to reincarnation other than to say that my wife very much still believes in reincarnation, while I am continuing to question my prior beliefs (in light of the Urantia book), especially now after such an odd experience. I do NOT claim any special abilities; I only claim to have had numerous “coincidentally odd experiences” throughout my life that make me pay more attention to things in my life and things I read.
By the way, there are several other helpful resources on the website, including articles from astronomer Nigel Nunn, one of which I read – the one about the structure of the universe(s) described in the Urantia book possibly being previously unknown to astronomers but quite logical! I especially appreciated the diagrams that Nigel included with his article. I also began reading the simplified article that Sadler Jr. wrote a few years before he died to help people (like me) to better understand the introduction to the Urantia book, most of which I had read about a year or so ago but found it a bit challenging, though definitely logical in its presentation! Bye for now.
All of us, no matter how logical or objective or open minded or curious, have personal biases and prejudices and preconceptions. The UB says that is because of the inherent function of mind. Mind itself requires “knowing” and “understanding” – both. We are hard wired with curiosity and this imbedded need to know. In fact, according to the UB, mind will invent “facts” to link together what is known by what is presumed or what is concluded.
That which is unknown does not prevent the invention of facts and or beliefs by mind to complete all cause and effect observations and suppositions into complete and integrated concepts and constructs of reality. It is the very basis of learning and progressing and discovery and discernment and determines our perspective of reality and our philosophy for living. I had never heard such a thing before and had never considered the very real need to know leads to the invention of belief which may or may not coincide with or be related to reality and fact.
Indeed, reality and fact are evidently secondary to the mind’s need and dependence upon the invention of substitute realities when facts are not known or ascertainable to the mind. This fact is related to the fact and truth that soul may be born and truth discerned and faith experience in ways that deliver personal growth in the Spirit and the very real fruits of the Spirit can be experienced by those who know few or no facts and who’s reality concepts are pure fiction and personal beliefs are all wrong!! Still does the Spirit spiritize and spiritualize the mind and mortal being and soul. If accurate knowledge and factual belief was required for soul survival and personal salvation, we would all be doomed to oblivion!
Now what I find interesting about this reality is that those who discover the UB and the fascinating story of creation and reality are so reluctant to lay aside their personal prejudices, bias, and preconceptions which are so primitive and fear based and superstitious when the UB offers new portrayals of stale beliefs that offer such tremendous liberation and hope!!
Why in the world would anyone cling to reincarnation, the endless repetition of mortal life and suffering on one single material world, rotating between bugs and animals and people with disoriented memories or none of all these prior lives to finally achieve a point of progress when one just melds into the greater reality???? Really?? That instead of an endless adventure of learning and growing and perfecting with full cognition and memory of the entire journey, always gaining wisdom and knowledge and skill and always growing ever closer to the Spirit within until we finally fuse into a metamorphic state of nirvana like experience and expression over 570 phases of less and less materialism and more and greater spiritization…until we become a Mighty Messenger of God to all the universes of time and ultimately a Finaliter to serve and create for eternity in the grand adventures to come, always aware of being ME in this never ending journey and adventure of joy!!
Who might truly prefer the primitive superstition and falsehood of human reincarnation when they discover the true source and the reality of that myth within the UB?? How bias and prejudiced must one be to prefer reincarnation to the adventure of reality presented to us and which we share here together??? The truth is so much more glorious and wonderful!!!
To each their own. Please refer to the beginning of this post for the Good News!! False beliefs cannot prevent the reality adventure to come!! Enjoy the journey…and believe whatever you will….for according to the UB our beliefs do not define nor determine reality itself! Thank God for that!!
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
I’ve not read a bunch of reincarnation stuff, but Bradly you’re beating-up a strawman just like the U-book authors do.
If I had to characterize the “new age” version of reincarnation I’d say:
It’s in the first couple of mansion worlds and its for folks who are not ready to move on and everybody agrees they need to learn a few more lessons (and its what they want) so they choose their pre-birth agreements (who they wanna be and what they wanna learn) and each round is a step up the ladder. You’re always a human but sometimes you’re rich and sometimes you’re poor but it is EVOLUTIONARY.
So its not ‘endless’ and its not random and does not just “happen to” you. The Urantia Book is very up-front about being ‘conservative’ and not wanting folks to have distorted beliefs. There are many quotes in the book about how Urantia is your “first life” so don’t be surprised if it turns out they were omitting some stuff for our own good.
-paul in portland
Paul,
Thanks for your personal definition of reincarnation. That makes about 1000+1 versions. Yours is always progressive and always human. Good to know….but hardly definitive or common among adherents, historically or currently.
I fear you missed my point(s). I have already complimented the belief in personal development and progress beyond material death as far superior to the perfection by death fiction of Christianity. My question is why someone might persist in this concept of reincarnation and belief once the UB has been discovered.
The issue raised is about prejudice and the refusal to embrace that which is far more wonderful and spectacular and glorious than the preconceptions and beliefs one so tightly grips despite its obvious inferiorities. Reincarnation is but one of many superstitions and inferior beliefs students of the Revelation bring with them to discovery of the Papers.
My post was also about the functionality and inherencies of reality constructs, even fictitious ones by mortal mind. And it was about how faith and religious experience grow soul despite all ignorance and false beliefs and fictitious metaphysics. Both topics I have found unique to the Revelation. That’s 3 topics I hoped we might consider.
My last post is not really about reincarnation at all. But you might really wish to study it prior to defining it for others. I certainly have studied it myself. Oddly, I have found many who claim to believe in reincarnation also know very little about it too. Like many who believe the Bible but seem so ignorant of its contents.
Which makes such beliefs and prejudices even more peculiar for blind loyalty I think. The UB teaches that ignorance and prejudice are the greatest obstacles to personal growth.
Just sayin’…
I believe the strawman here is of your own creation at the expense of the actual topics I presented to the discussion. Your low opinion of the authors of the Papers is most unfortunate, if important and interesting regarding understanding your own opinions here. Oh well….we believe what we believe.
And please remember that we are gathered here as students of the Revelation to study the Papers or other topics as they relate to the UB.
Again, the good news is that our beliefs do not define reality or determine our destiny. We should all be glad to learn this.
Bradly
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
- 47:3.7 [Part II]On mansion world number one (or another in case of advanced status) you will resume your intellectual training and spiritual development at the exact level whereon they were interrupted by death. Between the time of planetary death or translation and resurrection on the mansion world, mortal man gains absolutely nothing aside from experiencing the fact of survival. You begin over there right where you leave off down here.All, is not the above excerpt adequate to convince UB readers the plan is for us mortals to move up? For me the UB authors are succinct in their words and concepts re reincarnation. There is nothing gained during the death sleep and it is clear the next stop is the resurrection hall. Progress is a big factor in the Plan for mortals, planets, systems, yes the entire super universe. We move onward for correction, learning, reorientation etc, not lingering in a former place. Improvement is a divine concept, but Divinity chooses how its activated.
