560 posts · 25 participants · started Jun 2, 2017, 2:41 PM
Dearest family,
May … group understanding, mutual appreciation, fraternal fellowship, spiritual communion, and divine harmony. (28:6.8) be poured ou t on this plateform whatever expression of relative knowledge is done.
Be a moderator, such I’am not. I will intervene now and raised a red flag. And concede with pleasure upgrading Bradly’s ponderation behavior.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Deleted as duplicate…by author.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Bonita wrote:
“… that reflectivity is centered in Majeston, who was created by the Supreme. Although reflectivity is focalized in Majeston on Paradise, it is not needed by the Paradise Deity themselves, who already know all things and are inherently conscious of all things. Reflectivity has to do with the Supreme, with the experiential and finite realms and it is a service. I repeat, reflectivity is a service for the extra-Paradise superuniverses.”
Worth keeping in mind the breath-taking back-story behind the creation of Majeston by the Supreme Being:
“This momentous transaction, occurring in the dawn of time, represents the initial effort of the Supreme Creator Personalities, represented by the Master Spirits, to function as cocreators with the Paradise Trinity. This union of the creative power of the Supreme Creators with the creative potentials of the Trinity is the very source of the actuality of the Supreme Being.” (17:2.2)
I especially like the next bit, concerning the reaction of the Deity Absolute:
“…, then a new and far-reaching reaction occurred in the Deity Absolute which imparted new personality prerogatives to the Supreme Being and culminated in the personalization of Majeston, …” (17:2.2)
To help put this in context:
“The creation of Majeston signalized the first supreme creative act of the Supreme Being. This will to action was volitional in the Supreme Being, but the stupendous reaction of the Deity Absolute was not foreknown. Not since the eternity-appearance of Havona had the universe witnessed such a tremendous factualization of such a gigantic and far-flung alignment of power and co-ordination of functional spirit activities. The Deity response to the creative wills of the Supreme Being and his associates was vastly beyond their purposeful intent and greatly in excess of their conceptual forecasts.” (17:2.5)
“The Deity response […] was vastly beyond their purposeful intent and greatly in excess of their conceptual forecasts” 
Nigel
Reflectivity is not a “psychic” circuit of mind contacting mind on a mortal to mortal or celestial to mortal or celestial to celestial basis and is not the means used by the Material Son and Daughter to “exchange” communication which is not at all “psychic” by any definition – but is quite mechanical in nature
Exactly, so why bring it up at all? Reflectivity has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Perceptions of our brothers and sisters in outer space is a theory of Michael’s, not a claim as you say. Why you insist on jumping to conclusions concerning people’s motives is a real problem Bradly. Michael has put forth many different theories with the hope of explaining why people choose to believe in reincarnation. It’s a scholarly approach to the subject which I have no problem with.
The fact that every personality in this universe is ministered to by the same exact cosmic mind makes us all cosmically connected. It does not mean, nor have I ever suggested that it means, that memories of individual human lives can be accessed randomly by other humans throughout the universe. Reincarnation is a myth no matter how you spin it, as are memories of past lives which never existed. But a cosmic mind connection with all people who are evolving in this universe is a fact. And no, I’m not going to provide quotes for you because you should already know that. I dare you to find a quote that refutes the fact that the cosmic mind influences the intellectual levels of all known existence.
Bradly wrote:You seem to have lost all connection to the actual context of this discussion and Michael’s actual posted beliefs and hopes and misconceptions about the UB’s teachings which mirror Ragathea’s. He believes in reincarnation and/or seeks substantiation for what he believes are actual memories and experiences of people’s past life claims.
Bradly wrote:You are supporting the belief in channeling and mediumship here…whether you intend to or not is irrelevant.
HOW DARE YOU!! That is an out and out lie and you should be filled with shame for such false accusations. Bradly you make me physically ill. How can you say such horrible things? This habit of judging and attacking people who are not members of your personal church truly disgusts me to my core. You debased me and dragged my name through the mud on another forum without me ever being able to defend myself, but here I can speak. What you’ve done is darn-near unforgivable and I won’t just sit back and allow you to spread monstrous lies about me. Supporting channeling and mediumship!! HOW DARE YOU!!
As to my meaning of the term “uplink” and lateral link, I meant only to describe my understanding that reflectivity is a mind circuit that flows upward and inward from the universes of time to Deity itself or its reflective agents but it flows to Paradise.
The problem with that is your understanding is incomplete. The reflectivity circuit is more than just mind. It is a unification of physical, mental and spiritual elements of existence. See 9:7.2. It’s the full Monty.
Also, upward and inward are not the only directions the reflectivity circuit flows. It also flows outward to the very limits of the superuniverses. There is both import and export of news-worthy information which goes both to and from the superuniverse headquarters. Reflectivity also participates in universe space messaging which means broadcasts are sent out laterally to various planets I think your ideas about reflectivity are very confused. Here’s a quote from a Mighty Messenger, which apparently you’ve never read or have forgotten, which describes lateral, interplanetary reflectivity. Please take note of the bolded text describing reflectivity and interplanetary communication.
28:7.4 We are denied the full privilege of using these angels of the reflective order on Urantia. They are frequent visitors on your world, accompanying assigned personalities, but here they cannot freely function. This sphere is still under partial spiritual quarantine, and some of the circuits essential to their services are not here at present. When your world is once more restored to the reflective circuits concerned, much of the work of interplanetary and interuniverse communication will be greatly simplified and expedited. Celestial workers on Urantia encounter many difficulties because of this functional curtailment of their reflective associates. But we go on joyfully conducting our affairs with the instrumentalities at hand, notwithstanding our local deprivation of many of the services of these marvelous beings, the living mirrors of space and the presence projectors of time.
You have posted no text that even suggests such communication forms as Michael is seeking confirmation of here.
Honest to God Bradly. Have you had your eyes checked recently? As you pointed out, Michael wrote: “Thus, perceptions some people have of reincarnation may indeed be coming from non-physical (but still very real) perceptions of “humanity’s brothers and sisters in outer space”
Where in that sentence do you see anything about communications?? I can’t find it. Do you think the word perception means communication? If so, I’ll be glad to send you a dictionary. Once again you’ve made something up and gone off on a tangent about reflectivity and channeling when they have nothing at all to do with the topic you just derailed. Perceptions are feelings, urges, impressions, consciousness or awareness of something. This is precisely what mind and spirit ministry is designed to do. All humans are seeking to satisfy this inner feeling that they are not alone, whether that be in the internal milieu of their own minds or in the outer milieu of space where there are other minds. It was put there for a reason and the reason has nothing to do with channeling past lives as you suggest. The fact that some people are prone to psychic illusions concerning their perceptions only serves to show the immaturity and incompleteness of human understanding. But it’s wrong to ridicule other people’s beliefs. Doing so only proves the lack of confidence you have in your own, as per TUB.
I am certainly aware of the broadcasts and their relationship to reflectivity …such an insulting accusation. Another one. Only you have ridiculed another here. I have no opinion or objections regarding the beliefs of others….only the claims of others about the UB.
You keep dancing around the false hope, inference, and claim of mind reading and psychic communication per Michael’s posts…which contradict the UB and which reflectivity has nothing to do with…still.
Someone is certainly ignoring something here. For sure.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Bonita wrote:
Bradly wrote:
You have posted no text that even suggests such communication forms as Michael is seeking confirmation of here.Honest to God Bradly. Have you had your eyes checked recently? As you pointed out, Michael wrote: “Thus, perceptions some people have of reincarnation may indeed be coming from non-physical (but still very real) perceptions of “humanity’s brothers and sisters in outer space” Where in that sentence do you see anything about communications?? I can’t find it. Do you think the word perception means communication? If so, I’ll be glad to send you a dictionary. Once again you’ve made something up and gone off on a tangent about reflectivity and channeling when they have nothing at all to do with the topic you just derailed. Perceptions are feelings, urges, impressions, consciousness or awareness of something. This is precisely what mind and spirit ministry is designed to do. All humans are seeking to satisfy this inner feeling that they are not alone, whether that be in the internal milieu of their own minds or in the outer milieu of space where there are other minds. It was put there for a reason and the reason has nothing to do with channeling past lives as you suggest. The fact that some people are prone to psychic illusions concerning their perceptions only serves to show the immaturity and incompleteness of human understanding. But it’s wrong to ridicule other people’s beliefs. Doing so only proves the lack of confidence you have in your own, as per TUB.
I have not ridiculed anyone’s beliefs here…especially not Michael’s. Indeed, I have told him several times he is welcome to his beliefs nor have I said they are even inaccurate…only that the UB agrees or disagrees with those. I don’t care who believes the UB and who does not. And I don’t think that agreement with or belief of the UB bestows any spirituality or special standing on anyone either.
I also do not believe that saving faith and spiritual progress have anything to do with beliefs and that all beliefs are inaccurate and immature perspectives of reality…which is itself indifferent to all beliefs. I do believe that faith and spiritual progress occur or can occur no matter one’s beliefs and no matter how inaccurate or completely false is someone’s beliefs.
And I believe the warning in the parable of the mill stone regarding the disturbance of any person’s faith. Therefore I find your accusations very distasteful and repugnant. Just more rude and inaccurate accusations and personal attacks by you. Sad.
If not communicated, then how I wonder is one being’s “perceptions” transferred to another being? Michael is asking about one person’s memories/thoughts being transferred to another mind. Of course its communication. And as far as I understand from the UB there is no method or mechanism for such perception or memory or communication transfer…psychic or otherwise!
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Thanks for such an in-depth exploration of this topic. But I’d like to second André’s request, that Bonita and Bradly desist with the niggling; while this does serve as a splendid illustration of the need for those “Union of Souls” (28:5.13),
“…, there continue to arise petty frictions, minor misunderstandings too trivial even to engage the attention of conciliators but sufficiently irritating and disturbing to mar the smooth working of the universe if they were allowed to multiply and continue.”
I’m sure the discussion would improve if these two preeminent UB students where to “see as they are seen”.
“3. The Union of Souls. Completing the triune staff of attachment to the Perfectors of Wisdom, are these reflectors of the ideals and status of ethical relationships. Of all the problems in the universe requiring an exercise of the consummate wisdom of experience and adaptability, none are more important than those arising out of the relationships and associations of intelligent beings. Whether in human associations of commerce and trade, friendship and marriage, or in the liaisons of the angelic hosts, there continue to arise petty frictions, minor misunderstandings too trivial even to engage the attention of conciliators but sufficiently irritating and disturbing to mar the smooth working of the universe if they were allowed to multiply and continue. Therefore do the Perfectors of Wisdom make available the wise experience of their order as the “oil of reconciliation” for an entire superuniverse. In all this work these wise men of the superuniverses are ably seconded by their reflective associates, the Unions of Souls, who make available current information regarding the status of the universe and concurrently portray the Paradise ideal of the best adjustment of these perplexing problems. When not specifically directionized elsewhere, these seconaphim remain in reflective liaison with the interpreters of ethics on Paradise.” (28:5.13)
Nigel
I am certainly aware of the broadcasts and their relationship to reflectivity
Then why make such a fuss refuting the so-called “lateral-link”? It seems more likely that you didn’t know or forgot, otherwise why would you leave yourself wide open to such an obvious mistake like that? And yes, I can understand why you feel insulted. It seems like some karmic cleansing might be needed here, no? It’s okay for you to show “Good Grief” irritation with people who have an imperfect understanding of something; and of course, that’s not insulting at all, is it? Not when you do it, right? It’s only insulting when you’re on the receiving end of a “Good Grief”, right? Reality check!
You keep dancing around the false hope, inference, and claim of mind reading and psychic communication per Michael’s posts…which reflectivity has nothing to do with…still.
Horse manure Bradly. At least you finally admit that reflectivity has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion which you have derailed with your Good Grief-laced pique. And if I decide to dance, I’ll dance any which way I please.
For some reason…we are missing several posts here!! Someone please check the bin. Thank you.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Hello everyone. This is the second message about posts going missing. I will pass this on to our maintenance crew! M2
WOW! Please allow me to catch up by carefully reading all of your thoughtful comments (and TUB quotes). I am not normally online everyday, but now that I know you all have given me much to consider, hopefully will be able to comment before the end of this week, or at least by next Monday night. But as you can see, I am still on my quest to figure out what is causing some to still perceive reincarnation as fact. And though I have met some who claim to have psychic ability, I have yet to find anyone who can consistently impress me, so I stopped looking. HOWEVER, I have had rare, personal instances that could not be adequately explained otherwise. I used to wish for that ability, but now I don’t. Better to just live and learn and love. By the way, about a month ago, I visited the A.R.E. in Virginia Beach and I convinced 2 workers in the bookstore to begin reading the Urantia Book! Yes, I still value comparing and contrasting TUB with other books in my collection, and I still value all of your feedback, even when you disagree.
Hello again – I quickly read all of the recent posts. Thank you for all of the interesting feedback, but I feel a little sad, for I certainly did not intend to trigger a feud between between you Bradly and you Bonita. You both have so much knowledge about the contents of TUB that I know if I put an idea or two of mine on this forum, you both will test my ideas for weaknesses based on the contents of TUB. What I was hoping you both would have picked upon was something I have been reading in a number of sources regarding reincarnation as a misinterpretation of simultaneous realities that we humans are unable to perceive and thus mistakenly interpret any such perceptions as sequential reincarnation. Believe it or not, there have been theories and related tests made by quantum physicists (and perhaps other kinds of researchers) that point toward simultaneous realities. It would be good if those who know TUB very well could identify related, or corresponding concepts sooner rather than later for the sake of reaching more of humanity with TUB and promoting it as one of the greatest books ever written that is still cutting-edge after almost 100 years! And I had hoped that my comments about a known fact from astronomy would have caused you to see why I am leaning toward humans sensing (at some level) simultaneous realities as a possible explanation for the lingering perception (and strong beliefs in) by so many in reincarnation. I realize I may be wrong about some of the particular elements that I stated in my prior post, but at least honestly consider (and test using TUB info) if the overall concept I have presented could POSSIBLY be true. Whether it’s psychic ability or some other way that humans are having such perceptions of “connectedness” is not something I am “married” to. That’s why I rely on you all (especially Bonita and Bradly, but I am also happy to hear that Andre is still with us) to provide useful TUB quotes and comments
Testing for missing posts. Please ignore this.
From Sydney, Australia
Greetings Michael!!
I understand you to be searching for a reasonable explanation within the Papers for the common belief in past lives for those who believe in reincarnation and who propose belief as evidence of prior lives and pre-existence. Belief as evidence is an interesting phenomena worthy of its own study I think.
Consider reading Papers 85, 86, and 87 for information on the power of human mind and its ability to create “realities” that form not merely personal motivation and beliefs but entire social structure and institutions and traditions and morals and mores that last tens, hundreds, or even thousands of generations…even though many such life defining beliefs are completely false.
I find this discussion very interesting and important. I sincerely hope I’ve said nothing you might find as dismissive or belittling or ridicule. It is not my intention to uphold any belief over any other. I only discuss here the contents of the UB…not whether even they are true or believable. The truth and universe reality are dependent upon each of us to determine for ourselves. My beliefs are certainly not superior to any other’s.
Indeed, one of my favorite bits of Zen: Things are not as they appear. And neither are they different!!
Things, or reality, are as they are…and our perception of reality is quite limited and partial. Our mortal and experiential perceptions and perspective does not define reality, it only distorts it! Mine too (of course)!!
Glad you are here! Thanks.
Bradly
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Hi Folks,
I’ve been working with webmaster to see if there’s been a technical error causing the missing posts. She can’t find anything wrong but did find the missing posts in a “Pending” file which is where posts go waiting for someone to decide whether to approve them or not. Still not sure how they got there because none of the moderators have sent them there.
We can see now that there has been some heated debate going on. The webmaster told me that posts can be sent to the Pending file automatically if something in the content triggers the filter like certain inappropriate words. I’ve restored all the posts without scrutinising them all for content and will ask the Moderators to check things out. In the meantime please remember the courtesy rules and keep your debates civil without getting into personal attacks.
Cheers,
Kathleen
From Sydney, Australia
Bonita accuses me above: “Quite the contrary Bradly. It is you who have judged, juried and condemned Michael from the beginning. It is you who have “Good Griefed” him, belittled him and made fun of his beliefs and theories. You have not done a single thing to help him find a link to truth other than regurgitate text. It’s a disgrace how you damn a person right out of the gate and then get up on your soapbox to preach the Gospel according to Bradly. It’s absolutely not helpful. You have no idea what Michael actually believes unless you are claiming some kind of clairvoyance. It appears to me that Michael’s ideas are in a state of evolution, like all of us who are seeking answers. Furthermore, it doesn’t matter a hoot what he believes or how he interprets TUB. That is his own personal business, not yours, and your lack of respect for a person attempting to come to terms with a new revelation of truth is sad and unfortunate.”
holy moly….what a mess…
While I refuse to defend myself or my opinions directly to Bonita, as a waste of time and pure distraction to the issues at hand, I will say this: a review of every post of mine in reply to Michael’s posts over the past 4 months and 10+ pages of posts includes no disrespect or rancor to Michael, but exactly the opposite. There is significant agreement and support and clarifying text and multiple instances of my own agreement and tolerance and allowances for Michael’s stated theories, inquiries, and beliefs as being no less important or valid than my own.
The same is also true of my responses to the topic originator, Ragathea. My posts remain available for any who may wish to determine their content and value.
I have stated and believe that reincarnation is a belief that is based on the reality of progressive religious realization and growth and is superior to the Christian based belief that mortal death delivers instant perfection. I have also supported the belief in karma and have a strong affinity for Eastern philosophy which embraces both teachings. So I have no reason or motive to belittle any such beliefs at all. Once upon a time I embraced them. And still find meaning and value in them. And respect those who embrace them still. The issue is what the UB teaches about the subject…or so I thought.
Michael…if I have offended you in any way, even in some small way, I do sincerely apologize and reiterate here my own belief that it is faith and not belief that determines one’s spiritual journey and progress. We are not here to judge beliefs. We are here to discuss the contents of the UB. Beliefs may be compared to the teachings by such study but we are also NOT here to declare the contents of the UB as factual and demand any student’s belief in the claims of the UB. We study its contents only…or I do, and so claim and have so claimed since attending any study group about the UB.
I, like the UB itself, do not request nor require any agreement with its contents or any belief in its claims. Never have. Never will.
Thank you for being here Michael. Your faith is inspiring to all. Best wishes.
Bradly
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
