Preview: a read-only copy of the forum. To post or reply, use the current forum.

Reincarnation

560 posts · 25 participants · started Jun 2, 2017, 2:41 PM

BradlyParticipant
Jan 2, 2020, 2:46 PM

fordstar7 wrote:

My trouble with the seeming unfairness has nothing to do with wealth or possessions. It has to do with the unspeakable suffering and cruelty, death and hardship that so many have been thrust into. Granted, this mortal life is a starting point but I bet that didn’t ease the suffering of those in the death camps or the killing fields. I know, I am ignorant of the grand scheme and hope to someday have a more clear understanding of the UB which will no doubt enlighten me and I thank all for their comments and suggestions. I guess from most comments suffering is a blessing. But for now I will have keep examining my thoughts and get over it.

Suffering is seldom any form of blessing while in its grip!! But certainly can suffering lead to many qualities of being and becoming which delivers an experiential wisdom that is simply not available by any other means. Such wisdom is a precious and desireable commodity in the universe of universes! Not the suffering of its source but its result.

It is not the fire and bath or the hammer and anvil that is great and strong but the steel that is forged and formed by those agents and that experience. It is not the process so much as its results that truly matters.

The Creator Sons are likewise forged by 7 experiences of living the lives of their created beings in time. These Paradise Sons are created in perfection and yet are incomplete in their full potential without such experience. Jesus experienced the full measure of mortal suffering and his cruel death was not the worst by any measure. He suffered the disappointments of parents, the tragic death of his own father, the burden of his father’s household, the disapproval of his mother, the failure of his chosen apostles to understand him, the rejection of his people and his message, disloyalty and betrayal, beliitlement and being a fugitive, the disparagement of character and public condemnation, and that final week ending in his brutal torture and murder. Truly was he tested in all things as we are!

In Paper 19 we are taught that mortals eventually become vital partners with Divine beings in the administration of the universes of time due to our unique and profound experiential wisdom and empathy for struggle and suffering and the value of mercy and patience and kindness in the application of God’s will and love to the beings created in time.

Our suffering here and now results in meaning and value that is profoundly desirable for the perfecting progress and wisdom derived thereby and therefrom. The UB describes an eternity of benefits for those who so suffer in this brief life and mere instant in time.

I know I am personally inspired by and in awe of those I have witnessed who exhibit such poise and forgiveness and kindness and loyalty and faith and perserverence while personally suffering in so many different ways. God works in mysterious ways and certainly is suffering one of the most mysterious ways in which God’s purpose, plan, and power are experienced and expressed.

Still is this true…most of us suffer most by our immature, unwise, and self centered choices and immediately find relief from such suffering simply by making better choices due to our own spiritization. And almost all other forms of suffering will end or find relief as more and more individuals learn to embrace the Spirit within and make better decisions thereby.

Hope this helps!

^19:2.4 ^(216.2) Wisdom is twofold in origin, being derived from the perfection of divine insight inherent in perfect beings and from the personal experience acquired by evolutionary creatures. The Perfectors of Wisdom are the divine wisdom of the Paradise perfection of Deity insight. Their administrative associates on Uversa, the Mighty Messengers, Those without Name and Number, and Those High in Authority, when acting together, are the universe wisdom of experience. A divine being can have perfection of divine knowledge. An evolutionary mortal can sometime attain perfection of ascendant knowledge, but neither of these beings alone exhausts the potentials of all possible wisdom. Accordingly, whenever in the conduct of the superuniverse it is desired to achieve the maximum of administrative wisdom, these perfectors of the wisdom of divine insight are always associated with those ascendant personalities who have come up to the high responsibilities of superuniverse authority through the experiential tribulations of evolutionary progression.

^19:2.5 ^(216.3) The Perfectors of Wisdom will always require this complement of experiential wisdom for the completion of their administrative sagacity. But it has been postulated that a high and hitherto unattained level of wisdom may possibly be achieved by the Paradise finaliters after they are sometime inducted into the seventh stage of spirit existence. If this inference is correct, then would such perfected beings of evolutionary ascent undoubtedly become the most effective universe administrators ever to be known in all creation. I believe that such is the high destiny of finaliters.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Jan 3, 2020, 4:30 PM
Another truth and fact taught by Eastern Philosophies which is confirmed by the UB is the true source of all suffering – a universal reality that is the true cause of all such effects.

That is the reality of freewill itself.

God’s Divine plan provides each being with personality and mind in time the power of freewill. None are created perfect in time (the 7 Super Universes) and all are experiential beings – not perfected, but perfecting and experiential beings to whom knowledge, education, maturity, experience, and wisdom are each and all acquired over time. God does not demand, require, or coerce any such freewill personality to obey any specific codes or laws or demands….although reality IS based upon laws and order and process that assures the foundation and patterns of a very orderly reality.

Those with freewill choose to either learn, know, understand, and choose to identify with reality or not to. But that is not all there is to it. If so, then simple good intentions and proper motives would make a perfect world and universe. So a universe of freewill beings and experiential wisdom has 2 results which can not be overcome by law or command or wish or magic – one is the unreality of the false liberty of self importance where self is more important than others and the other is the true liberty of loving service to others which creates community, a community wherein all serve the greatest good for the greatest number and serve one another personally. In reality, the self is far better served by such a community than might ever be served by self importance – the each and the all are best served by universe reality!

The unreality of false liberty results in chaos and dysfunction and so many forms of suffering. The closer to the perfection of Paradise freewill beings are created and exist, the less error and less ignorance there is and the more wisdom and knowledge one is created with. Mortals are the furthest of all freewill beings from Paradise perfection. We require the most time and experience and education to overcome the animal legacy of self importance and belligerence and to choose the true liberty of universe reality. Each generation over a million or two million years slowly and incrementally advances toward more wisdom collectively and experientially to reach that golden time of Light and Life on each such world.

Each person on those worlds is connected to the Spirit in ways which allows them individually and personally to attain spirit progress and soul and soul survival and soul growth and even personal Light and Life in relationship to the Spirit within. But collectively and totally? Well that takes a long, long time. Remember…none are coerced or manipulated to transition from false liberty to true liberty….and such a transition, whether personally or socially, requires experiential wisdom and maturity. These cannot be circumvented in freewill reality. Self importance will result in suffering. Guaranteed. Count on it. This learning curve of experiential wisdom is the hammer and anvil. It is by suffering that we seek relief from suffering and we seek the solution to suffering…and that relief and that solution is the Spirit and the universe reality of true liberty.

So….the only alternative to the potential and reality of suffering is NO freewill. For nobody, anywhere, ever. Freewill is the very foundation of perfecting and becoming. Freewill results in uncertainties. Remember, good intentions do not by themselves eliminate error and repercussion and consequences of suffering….still is wisdom derived from the trial and errors of experience and choice. Uncertainty is the very doorway of discovery and adventure! If everything is certain then everything is perfect. Perfecting and becoming by freewill in time by experience and wisdom results in error and suffering from error.

Logically and philosophically, suffering is unavoidable and delivers wisdom to those who change their choices based on the outcomes of prior choice…better choices, better outcomes….true liberty reality, false liberty consequences. By this process and reality do the Super Universes of time seek an end to suffering and implement the glory of reality in all of creation…..and so they/we do….one person and one choice at a time.

We are told that those with the vision to see this grand reality and to view the trajectory of time and progress achieved and the target of future intersection are not dismayed by such a perspective but marvel at the wonder and beauty of such an arc of achievement and destiny!!

Remember: Things are not as they appear, and neither are they different. To the viewer that is. Things are as they are and according to the UB, things are perfectly perfecting and progressively gaining momentum. The question is can we see that? What’s the appearance of our personal perspective? For our perspective determines appearances…but do not determine reality!!

Disappointment, guilt, blame, regret, impatience, anxiety….what and who do such feelings help? Not ourselves, not others, not the world, or the universe, or the present, or the past, or the future…. If we wish to help and change and reduce suffering, it is within we will find the solution and the perspective of the Spirit. One’s perspective and connection to Spirit is demonstrated by only one proof – the fruits of the Spirit! And by those can we indeed change the world for the better!

195:5.11 (2076.2) In confusion over man’s origin, do not lose sight of his eternal destiny. Forget not that Jesus loved even little children, and that he forever made clear the great worth of human personality.

195:5.12 (2076.3) As you view the world, remember that the black patches of evil which you see are shown against a white background of ultimate good. You do not view merely white patches of good which show up miserably against a black background of evil.

195:5.13 (2076.4) When there is so much good truth to publish and proclaim, why should men dwell so much upon the evil in the world just because it appears to be a fact? The beauties of the spiritual values of truth are more pleasurable and uplifting than is the phenomenon of evil.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Jan 4, 2020, 3:24 PM
The truth within the myth of reincarnation is the progressive enlightening and experiential wisdom and progress acquired over time by our personal freewill choices. That truth and reality results in the blessings and the consequences of the choices made. There are personal and collective blessings…and consequences too. It must be so…it cannot be any other way.

It is fruitless to deny reality and pointless to resist or resent reality. For those who truly see reality, it is a wondrous and joyful and friendly universe filled with love, truth, beauty, and goodness.

^3:5.5 ^(51.4) The uncertainties of life and the vicissitudes of existence do not in any manner contradict the concept of the universal sovereignty of God. All evolutionary creature life is beset by certain inevitabilities. Consider the following:

^3:5.6 ^(51.5) 1. Is courage—strength of character—desirable? Then must man be reared in an environment which necessitates grappling with hardships and reacting to disappointments.

^3:5.7 ^(51.6) 2. Is altruism—service of one’s fellows—desirable? Then must life experience provide for encountering situations of social inequality.

^3:5.8 ^(51.7) 3. Is hope—the grandeur of trust—desirable? Then human existence must constantly be confronted with insecurities and recurrent uncertainties.

^3:5.9 ^(51.8) 4. Is faith—the supreme assertion of human thought—desirable? Then must the mind of man find itself in that troublesome predicament where it ever knows less than it can believe.

^3:5.10 ^(51.9) 5. Is the love of truth and the willingness to go wherever it leads, desirable? Then must man grow up in a world where error is present and falsehood always possible.

^3:5.11 ^(51.10) 6. Is idealism—the approaching concept of the divine—desirable? Then must man struggle in an environment of relative goodness and beauty, surroundings stimulative of the irrepressible reach for better things.

^3:5.12 ^(51.11) 7. Is loyalty—devotion to highest duty—desirable? Then must man carry on amid the possibilities of betrayal and desertion. The valor of devotion to duty consists in the implied danger of default.

^3:5.13 ^(51.12) 8. Is unselfishness—the spirit of self-forgetfulness—desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.

^3:5.14 ^(51.13) 9. Is pleasure—the satisfaction of happiness—desirable? Then must man live in a world where the alternative of pain and the likelihood of suffering are ever-present experiential possibilities.

^3:5.15 ^(52.1) Throughout the universe, every unit is regarded as a part of the whole. Survival of the part is dependent on co-operation with the plan and purpose of the whole, the wholehearted desire and perfect willingness to do the Father’s divine will. The onlyevolutionary world without error (the possibility of unwise judgment) would be a world without free intelligence. In the Havona universe there are a billion perfect worlds with their perfect inhabitants, but evolving man must be fallible if he is to be free. Free and inexperienced intelligence cannot possibly at first be uniformly wise. The possibility of mistaken judgment (evil) becomes sin only when the human will consciously endorses and knowingly embraces a deliberate immoral judgment.

^3:5.16 ^(52.2) The full appreciation of truth, beauty, and goodness is inherent in the perfection of the divine universe. The inhabitants of the Havona worlds do not require the potential of relative value levels as a choice stimulus; such perfect beings are able to identify and choose the good in the absence of all contrastive and thought-compelling moral situations. But all such perfect beings are, in moral nature and spiritual status, what they are by virtue of the fact of existence. They have experientially earned advancement only within their inherent status. Mortal man earns even his status as an ascension candidate by his own faith and hope. Everything divine which the human mind grasps and the human soul acquires is an experiential attainment; it is a realityof personal experience and is therefore a unique possession in contrast to the inherent goodness and righteousness of the inerrant personalities of Havona.

^3:5.17 ^(52.3) The creatures of Havona are naturally brave, but they are not courageous in the human sense. They are innately kind and considerate, but hardly altruistic in the human way. They are expectant of a pleasant future, but not hopeful in the exquisite manner of the trusting mortal of the uncertain evolutionary spheres. They have faith in the stability of the universe, but they are utter strangers to that saving faith whereby mortal man climbs from the status of an animal up to the portals of Paradise. They love the truth, but they know nothing of its soul-saving qualities. They are idealists, but they were born that way; they are wholly ignorant of the ecstasy of becoming such by exhilarating choice. They are loyal, but they have never experienced the thrill of wholehearted and intelligent devotion to duty in the face of temptation to default. They are unselfish, but they never gained such levels of experience by the magnificent conquest of a belligerent self. They enjoy pleasure, but they do not comprehend the sweetness of the pleasure escape from the pain potential.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
urantia4meParticipant
Jan 5, 2020, 5:49 AM
Thank you Bart, Bradly and Mara for all of your insightful comments/UB quotes! Now that I better understand the main point Bart was making, it truly is easier said than done for most people to accept the truths proclaimed in the UB. And some suffering is SO intense and long-lasting by our human standards, one can easily understand why people become bitter unbelievers in the goodness of humanity, GOD, and life in general. In fact, that is related to the old question of “If GOD is all-good and all-powerful, why then does GOD permit such evil and suffering?!” Furthermore, for many people, simply learning about all the valid truths expressed in the UB does not seem to be of much help while one actively experiences evil and suffering. For many people, it seems like only after the evil and suffering ends does one have a chance to catch their breath and carefully think about all that happened to him/her. And for many others, that isn’t even possible during their physical lives on Earth, for they die as a result of that evil and suffering. I think it’s best to ask someone who has personally experienced intense evil and suffering to explain how he/she has managed to handle such a situation and still maintain a positive outlook in life in order to more fully appreciate the truths expressed in the UB. For that reason Bart, I would recommend either talking with survivors of great evil and suffering, or you can read what some survivors have written concerning their personal success despite overwhelming difficulties. Then compare those answers with what is in the UB, and then you may be even more pleasantly surprised by how the UB addresses such difficult topics. I would also like to recommend to you another great book – “Man’s Search For Meaning” by Victor Frankl, who struggled to find the best ways he could to survive as a Jewish man in a Nazi concentration camp. By the way, I didn’t intend to simply gloss over what Bart had written in his prior post by my comment that this starting lifetime for each of us is not such a big deal in the grand scheme of eternity. But if any of us were experiencing similar intense evil and suffering, we would be forced to ask ourselves, “What truly would keep us from not losing our minds and not killing ourselves to escape such a terrible situation?!” Would quotes from the UB be enough to help us survive until the end?! I’m speaking from personal experience, for several years ago, I contemplated suicide due to very unpleasant situations in my life at that time. That was even after 2 decades of a so-called Christian upbringing! So I already knew all the usual responses that people in my life were going to give me, including the best Bible verses that could be recommended. None of the normal stuff helped me get through that time period. Only hoping (without any logical reason for hoping) that things would someday change for the better, plus thinking there was a chance that whatever would happen after death could be even worse, kept me going. I have learned a lot about life since then, so hopefully I would NOT think of suicide ever again. Even though I have struggled in life, I also realize my struggles have been relatively minor compared to what others have experienced, yet others still continue to struggle in their life circumstances, which inspires me. But I will add that it really helps to have someone (or something like the UB) to more fully explain what life and death is really about! Bye for now.
urantia4meParticipant
Jan 5, 2020, 5:39 PM
For the record, according to the UB, the Buddha was NOT born into wealth/royalty as a prince, as has been told for many centuries. The UB says that story was made up by his followers. (Likewise, many other famous people are also described in the UB as being much different than our history books & cultures have taught us. The UB really does a great job of separating facts from fiction!) The UB gives much more info about the Buddha, but I don’t recall in which UB Papers that he is mentioned, though I absolutely read about him in the UB. I’m sure any of you can verify what I shared with you by conducting a simple search.
Mark KurtzParticipant
Jan 5, 2020, 6:26 PM
See Jesus’ comments to Gonod and his son Ganid in 132:7.3 and subsequent. This offers clarity.

^(1466.3) ^132:7.3 It was on the visit to Switzerland, up in the mountains, that Jesus had an all-day talk with both father and son about Buddhism. Many times Ganid had asked Jesus direct questions about Buddha, but he had always received more or less evasive replies. Now, in the presence of the son, the father asked Jesus a direct question about Buddha, and he received a direct reply. Said Gonod: “I would really like to know what you think of Buddha.” And Jesus answered:

^(1466.4) ^132:7.4 “Your Buddha was much better than your Buddhism. Buddha was a great man, even a prophet to his people, but he was an orphan prophet; by that I mean that he early lost sight of his spiritual Father, the Father in heaven. His experience was tragic. He tried to live and teach as a messenger of God, but without God. Buddha guided his ship of salvation right up to the safe harbor, right up to the entrance to the haven of mortal salvation, and there, because of faulty charts of navigation, the good ship ran aground. There it has rested these many generations, motionless and almost hopelessly stranded. And thereon have many of your people remained all these years. They live within hailing distance of the safe waters of rest, but they refuse to enter because the noble craft of the good Buddha met the misfortune of grounding just outside the harbor. And the Buddhist peoples never will enter this harbor unless they abandon the philosophic craft of their prophet and seize upon his noble spirit. Had your people remained true to the spirit of Buddha, you would have long since entered your haven of spirit tranquillity, soul rest, and assurance of salvation.

^(1467.1) ^132:7.5 “You see, Gonod, Buddha knew God in spirit but failed clearly to discover him in mind; the Jews discovered God in mind but largely failed to know him in spirit. Today, the Buddhists flounder about in a philosophy without God, while my people are piteously enslaved to the fear of a God without a saving philosophy of life and liberty. You have a philosophy without a God; the Jews have a God but are largely without a philosophy of living as related thereto. Buddha, failing to envision God as a spirit and as a Father, failed to provide in his teaching the moral energy and the spiritual driving power which a religion must possess if it is to change a race and exalt a nation.”
urantia4meParticipant
Jan 9, 2020, 7:14 AM
That was nice of you Mark to include that section regarding Jesus’ comments on Buddhism and Judaism, but I was specifically referring to Urantia Paper 94, Section 7.1…

“…His followers later made it appear that he was the son of a fabulously wealthy ruler, but, in truth, he was the heir apparent to the throne of a petty chieftain who ruled by sufferance over a small and secluded mountain valley in the southern Himalayas.”

I only bring this to everyone’s attention because Bradly recently seemed to validate that which most everyone falsely believes regarding the supposed history of the Buddha, which surprised me because Bradly is normally very careful to accurately present that which is in the Urantia Book. The UB does have almost 2100 pages, so it would not surprise me if Bradly simply had never read that part of the UB. And what I have highlighted is no offense or consequence to the Buddha, for he still achieved an amazing level of knowledge and wisdom! And no offense to Bradly – I am simply trying to accurately present what is in the UB.
urantia4meParticipant
Jan 9, 2020, 7:39 AM
Like Bonita, I have decided to take a longer break from this forum. I prefer to simply read the UB in my own way & at my own pace, not necessarily focusing on just one topic at a time whenever having a discussion on this forum. Plus I still have other reading/research projects that are taking a good bit off my time. Best wishes to everyone!
BradlyParticipant
Jan 9, 2020, 1:58 PM
Best wishes Michael. I’ve enjoyed your time here and am hopeful for your eventual return. Thank you for sharing your journey of discovery.

Reading and study of the UB is a delightful experience of fact and truth for seekers…so many confirmations and ah ha moments which expand perspective and enhance our philosophy of living.

Indeed am I of an age when I should rely less on memory and more on the text itself. I appreciate your kind correction about Siddhartha.

God’s Speed and see you on up the Glory Road!!

^2:7.10 ^(43.3) The religious challenge of this age is to those farseeing and forward-looking men and women of spiritual insight who will dare to construct a new and appealing philosophy of living out of the enlarged and exquisitely integrated modern concepts of cosmic truth, universe beauty, and divine goodness. Such a new and righteous vision of morality will attract all that is good in the mind of man and challenge that which is best in the human soul. Truth, beauty, and goodness are divine realities, and as man ascends the scale of spiritual living, these supreme qualities of the Eternal become increasingly co-ordinated and unified in God, who is love.

^2:7.11 ^(43.4) All truth—material, philosophic, or spiritual—is both beautiful and good. All real beauty—material art or spiritual symmetry—is both true and good. All genuine goodness—whether personal morality, social equity, or divine ministry—is equally true and beautiful. Health, sanity, and happiness are integrations of truth, beauty, and goodness as they are blended in human experience. Such levels of efficient living come about through the unification of energy systems, idea systems, and spirit systems.

^2:7.12 ^(43.5) Truth is coherent, beauty attractive, goodness stabilizing. And when these values of that which is real are co-ordinated in personality experience, the result is a high order of love conditioned by wisdom and qualified by loyalty. The real purpose of all universe education is to effect the better co-ordination of the isolated child of the worlds with the larger realities of his expanding experience. Reality is finite on the human level, infinite and eternal on the higher and divine levels.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
urantia4meParticipant
Jan 16, 2020, 4:02 PM
Hello again Bradly (& other “watchers”). I did not expect to return so soon to this forum, but I since one of my initial questions sadly led to a bit of conflict between you & Bonita, I felt I should inform both of you that I think I found (in the UB) the answer to what mechanism in our current reality may be causing so many humans to mistakenly perceive reincarnation as true, especially in documented cases where amazing facts & details of the previous person’s life could not have been known (through normal means) to the current person having such profound “memories”?!

In Paper 117 (God The Supreme), in section 5 (The Oversoul of Creation), in the 5th paragraph on page 1286 of the physical Urantia book, I found this to be the best answer so far:

“The great circuits of energy, mind, and spirit are never the permanent possessions of ascending personality; these ministries remain forever a part of Supremacy. In the mortal experience the human intellect resides in the rhythmic pulsations of the adjutant mind-spirits and effects its decisions within the arena produced by encircuitment within this ministry. Upon mortal death the human self is everlastingly divorced from the adjutant circuit. While these adjutants never seem to transmit experience from one personality to another, the can and do transmit the impersonal repercussions of decision-action through God the Sevenfold to God the Supreme. (At least this is true of the adjutants of worship and wisdom.)”

So rather than ONLY thinking that our minds can imagine such crazy things, we now see that there are real elements & processes that people can misperceive as reincarnation. Until I read more of the UB, I can only wonder what is also true regarding the other 5 adjutant mind-spirits that may also help to explain why so many humans over the centuries have perceived reincarnation as true. I am NOT saying that our past discussions on this UB forum were not helpful/informative, but I didn’t feel like our other comments & conclusions fully explained the more profound cases of supposed reincarnation that I had found over the years. To me, that paragraph is even more helpful/informative than the UB quotes that specifically mention the word reincarnation! If Bonita (or you Bradly) had already shared that UB quote that I quoted in this post, I apologize for my not remembering it.

Best wishes to all!
BradlyParticipant
Jan 17, 2020, 2:54 PM
Michael- glad to learn of your continued studies! Your post touches upon several important concepts for consideration.

But first…let us consider this notion of “well documented” so called prior life memories. Logic and reason might require consideration that well documented memories does not make these mind phenomena accurate or memories of actual experience rather than mental and contemporary constructs of the mind. Any research on memory delivers ample evidence of the factual existence and commonly shared reality of false memory and embellished memory and transitional memories which change over time and there is also memory implanting and invention and creation by others. False memory is common, not at all unusual.

Sometimes, actually most often, it is the simplest answer/solutions that offer the most truth.

Now…to the text. We did not study this exact text yet…but we did consider certain aspects. This text does not teach or say that mortal memories may originate in one mortal mind to transfer to the Supreme to then go to another (or any other) mortal mind.

Also, this text does say these records so transferred by the higher Adjutants of Worship & Wisdom are of the “impersonal repercussions” which would not be personal memories.

Our actual thoughts are delivered to Deity, including the Supreme, by the circuit of reflectivity. The Supreme is the Experiential Deity of the totality aggregation and integration of all creature experience and wisdom in time and space that is without evil or sin.

The UB teaches that there is a reality-filter (if you will) that keeps all repercussions of sin and error localized and temporal in effect while all that is experienced or expressed that is true, beautiful , and good survives eternally and flows up and in to the Supreme . All experience and experiential wisdom that is righteous survives within the individual being but also survives collectively in the Supreme.

Each experience of righteousness is the realization of potential while each expression of righteousness creates new potentials for realization in an unending feedback loop of cause and effect!!

Our personal and collective future includes a time to come when the each will receive the experience of the all. This is the subject of the Paper and the quote you cite above. But the each does not receive the experience or the memories of each other as individuals by any manner described here or anywhere in the Papers that I know of…doesn’t happen….according to the UB that is.

^117:5.10 ^(1287.1) How do these manifold circuits of cosmic ministry register the meanings, values, and facts of evolutionary experience in the Supreme? We are not exactly certain, but we believe that this registry takes place through the persons of the Supreme Creators of Paradise origin who are the immediate bestowers of these circuits of time and space. The mind-experience accumulations of the seven adjutant mind-spirits, in their ministry to the physical level of intellect, are a part of the local universe experience of the Divine Minister, and through this Creative Spirit they probably find registry in the mind of Supremacy. Likewise are mortal experiences with the Spirit of Truth and the Holy Spirit probably registered by similar techniques in the person of Supremacy.

^117:5.11 ^(1287.2) Even the experience of man and Adjuster must find echo in the divinity of God the Supreme, for, as the Adjusters experience, they are like the Supreme, and the evolving soul of mortal man is created out of the pre-existent possibility for such experience within the Supreme.

^117:5.12 ^(1287.3) In this manner do the manifold experiences of all creation become a part of the evolution of Supremacy. Creatures merely utilize the qualities and quantities of the finite as they ascend to the Father; the impersonal consequences of such utilization remain forever a part of the living cosmos, the Supreme person.

^117:5.13 ^(1287.4) What man himself takes with him as a personality possession are the character consequences of the experience of having used the mind and spirit circuits of the grand universe in his Paradise ascent. When man decides, and when he consummates this decision in action, man experiences, and the meanings and the values of this experience are forever a part of his eternal character on all levels, from the finite to the final. Cosmically moral and divinely spiritual character represents the creature’s capital accumulation of personal decisions which have been illuminated by sincere worship, glorified by intelligent love, and consummated in brotherly service.

^117:5.14 ^(1287.5) The evolving Supreme will eventually compensate finite creatures for their inability ever to achieve more than limited experience contact with the universe of universes. Creatures can attain the Paradise Father, but their evolutionary minds, being finite, are incapable of really understanding the infinite and absolute Father. But since all creature experiencing registers in, and is a part of, the Supreme, when all creatures attain the final level of finite existence, and after total universe development makes possible their attainment of God the Supreme as an actual divinity presence, then, inherent in the fact of such contact, is contact with total experience. The finite of time contains within itself the seeds of eternity; and we are taught that, when the fullness of evolution witnesses the exhaustion of the capacity for cosmic growth, the total finite will embark upon the absonite phases of the eternal career in quest of the Father as Ultimate.

You can learn more about the adjutants in Papers 34 and 36.

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/search?keys=Adjutants+&op=Search

Enjoy the journey home!

Bradly

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
urantia4meParticipant
Jan 21, 2020, 6:27 AM
Hello again,

I always read and appreciate your responses and UB quotes, Bradly. I hope I did not give the wrong impression by my reaction to the info I found in the Paper on God the Supreme. The way that quote from section 5 was worded simply made me realize that the UB was describing functions associated with the adjutant mind-spirits that COULD be misinterpreted by us humans as proof of reincarnation. But the UB is clear enough in that same paragraph that we humans only live and die once on this physical planet Earth. By the way, I was NOT saying those documented cases (to which I referred in my previous post) are “positive proof” of reincarnation – only that the details of the cases that I have personally read about are quite impressive to me. The particular cases that I’m familiar with (such as the case that can be found online by using the search words “The Reincarnation of Anne Frank”) do NOT at all seem to be the nonsensical ramblings of crazy people or claims from people lying to get attention, as you keep claiming. But I can understand why you keep insisting that they can’t be anything but that, based on what is in the UB – that book leaves no doubt about its position on the subject of reincarnation. I have not yet developed the level of trust that you seem to have in the UB, but I value it enough now to ALWAYS give it serious consideration whenever I read it.

On a different note, this past weekend I was mainly reading the sections that dealt with the evolution of the human race, starting with the Papers that detail the arrival of Adam and Eve, and later the migrations and interactions of people since then. I also read Paper 39 dealing with The Seraphic Hosts, some of which are moving through the universe(s) at nearly 3 times the speed of light! What a fascinating book! Bye for now.
BradlyParticipant
Jan 22, 2020, 12:47 AM
Thank you Michael. Your growing appreciation for the Papers are notable and good to hear.

To clarify my thoughts on believers in reincarnation. …I have never claimed nor do I believe such folks (and there are so many of them) are crazy or liars or ramblers of nonsense pr silliness! I think we ALL (or certainly most) suffer from false memories. Quite naturally.

Some of us are quite good at it and very creative indeed. The mortal mind is a very powerful and very creative agent that is designed to transcend its material and animal limits. Fantasy, fiction, delusion, and false beliefs are among the least of its powers.

Faith, insight, metaphysics, invention, reason, logic, philosophy, religion, and wisdom come by this same mind. Reincarnation is a very reasoned and logical transcendence of simple termination of being by death AND the Christian simplistic belief in personal perfection by simple mortality…BOTH. And its based on reality.

But it is also inaccurate and incomplete and inferior to the reality presented in the Papers. That’s all….inferior and inaccurate and incomplete.

Those with memories of past lives may have such memories indeed, but those are not memories of their own or any other’s past lives…according to the UB.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/false-memories

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-false-memory-2795193

The UB teaches that the scientific method is a reliable and desirable discipline to consider and understand and explain reality. Consider a true investigation of the very common and very real phenomena of false memories.

It is interesting to note that the UB also teaches that all faith in God and a Higher Being and Greater Power and First Source is a functional and desirable and powerful reality and a mighty fulcrum of personal religious experience and relationship with the inner Spirit and transformational in its results…no matter how false the beliefs or metaphysics or philosophy which leads to it!!!!

Very ignorant and primitive and superstitious mortals can and do have very powerful religious experience and great faith despite their beliefs as well as because of them. I look forward to a greater understanding of the teachings… .by us all.

^101:9.2 ^(1115.3) When you presume to sit in critical judgment on the primitive religion of man (or on the religion of primitive man), you should remember to judge such savages and to evaluate their religious experience in accordance with their enlightenment and status of conscience. Do not make the mistake of judging another’s religion by your own standards of knowledge and truth.

^101:9.3 ^(1115.4) True religion is that sublime and profound conviction within the soul which compellingly admonishes man that it would be wrong for him not to believe in those morontial realities which constitute his highest ethical and moral concepts, his highest interpretation of life’s greatest values and the universe’s deepest realities. And such a religion is simply the experience of yielding intellectual loyalty to the highest dictates of spiritual consciousness.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Jan 21, 2020, 4:51 PM
Missing post…please check spam folder.

Thank you.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
AlainParticipant
Jan 23, 2020, 3:26 AM
Hi all,

Concerning past memories, let us consider also that our experimented Adjusters carry with them a lot of memories from their past experiences upon indwelling humans. Who knows what they might use as flashes in our minds if they so consider such vivid recaps to be useful in our present experience.
BradlyParticipant
Jan 23, 2020, 2:44 PM
Greetings Alain!!

I look forward to you posting supporting text for such a proposition. I have great reservations about such a source for those memories which some believe to be evidence of prior personal lives on the planet of origin.

What purpose might there be for any experience of one person for the benefit or wisdom ir spiritization of any other being? Experiential learning and wisdom must be personally acquired and all truth must be personally realized and actualized or there is no meanings or value attached.

No one else’s experience can deliver wisdom or growth or truth to me I do not think. And then there is the fact that any such memory transcripts or “recaps” would be of aliens in strange lands as Adjusters do not normally indwell multiple minds on the same world.

I remain confident that false memories are the source of these false beliefs in prior lives.

^109:4.6 ^(1199.1) In a sense the Adjusters may be fostering a certain degree of planetary cross-fertilization in the domains of truth, beauty, and goodness. But they are seldom given two indwelling experiences on the same planet; there is no Adjuster now serving on Urantia who has been on this world previously. I know whereof I speak since we have their numbers and records in the archives of Uversa.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Jan 25, 2020, 6:02 PM
The scientific method has demonstrated the source of alleged previous-lives-memories and the Urantia Papers, as the claimed Epochal Revelation of fact, knowledge, and truth of universe realities, concurs and substantiates the findings of many of the conclusions of the scientific method and supports the method unequivocally in its eventual results (which is not to say that all modern theories are supported by the UB by any means – for example the Big Bang and the single Darwinian thread of species and human evolution and the mechanistic and accidental universe are all totally false theories presented by the scientific method and which will all be eventually discredited and disproven by the method too!).

False memories have a very clear and obvious source. So does the belief in reincarnation. That belief combined with false memories result in a great faith that is independent of the validity or falsehood of the belief itself. All faith is good in its results no matter how primitive, superstitious, or fictional the founding beliefs may be which lead to and result in faith and religious experience. So the belief in magic and luck and reincarnation and mediumship and any and all such primitivisms are or may be positive in their effects and results. And so should the scientific method likewise deliver evidence of God and universe realities…and so it does….to those who can see and hear anyway!! Just because science claims something does not make it true. Just because belief claims something does not make it true either!!

The good news is reality does not require nor depend upon scientific claims or personal beliefs!! And neither does faith and personal spiritual progress or soul birth or personal survival from this world to the next!! False beliefs are but temporary obstacles to the experience of universe realities to come. God’s love does not depend upon one’s knowledge or beliefs. That is the good news of the Papers to our world.

88:4.1 (970.6) Civilized man attacks the problems of a real environment through his science; savage man attempted to solve the real problems of an illusory ghost environment by magic. Magic was the technique of manipulating the conjectured spirit environment whose machinations endlessly explained the inexplicable; it was the art of obtaining voluntary spirit co-operation and of coercing involuntary spirit aid through the use of fetishes or other and more powerful spirits.

88:4.2 (970.7) The object of magic, sorcery, and necromancy was twofold:

88:4.3 (970.8) 1. To secure insight into the future.
88:4.4 (970.9) 2. Favorably to influence environment.

88:4.5 (970.10) The objects of science are identical with those of magic. Mankind is progressing from magic to science, not by meditation and reason, but rather through long experience, gradually and painfully. Man is gradually backing into the truth, beginning in error, progressing in error, and finally attaining the threshold of truth. Only with the arrival of the scientific method has he faced forward. But primitive man had to experiment or perish.

88:4.6 (970.11) The fascination of early superstition was the mother of the later scientific curiosity. There was progressive dynamic emotion—fear plus curiosity—in these primitive superstitions; there was progressive driving power in the olden magic. These superstitions represented the emergence of the human desire to know and to control planetary environment.

195:7.1 (2078.4) How foolish it is for material-minded man to allow such vulnerable theories as those of a mechanistic universe to deprive him of the vast spiritual resources of the personal experience of true religion. Facts never quarrel with real spiritual faith; theories may. Better that science should be devoted to the destruction of superstition rather than attempting the overthrow of religious faith—human belief in spiritual realities and divine values.

195:7.2 (2078.5) Science should do for man materially what religion does for him spiritually: extend the horizon of life and enlarge his personality. True science can have no lasting quarrel with true religion. The “scientific method” is merely an intellectual yardstick wherewith to measure material adventures and physical achievements. But being material and wholly intellectual, it is utterly useless in the evaluation of spiritual realities and religious experiences.

195:7.3 (2078.6) The inconsistency of the modern mechanist is: If this were merely a material universe and man only a machine, such a man would be wholly unable to recognize himself as such a machine, and likewise would such a machine-man be wholly unconscious of the fact of the existence of such a material universe. The materialistic dismay and despair of a mechanistic science has failed to recognize the fact of the spirit-indwelt mind of the scientist whose very supermaterial insight formulates these mistaken and self-contradictory concepts of a materialistic universe.

195:7.4 (2078.7) Paradise values of eternity and infinity, of truth, beauty, and goodness, are concealed within the facts of the phenomena of the universes of time and space. But it requires the eye of faith in a spirit-born mortal to detect and discern these spiritual values.

195:7.5 (2078.8) The realities and values of spiritual progress are not a “psychologic projection”—a mere glorified daydream of the material mind. Such things are the spiritual forecasts of the indwelling Adjuster, the spirit of God living in the mind of man. And let not your dabblings with the faintly glimpsed findings of “relativity” disturb your concepts of the eternity and infinity of God. And in all your solicitation concerning the necessity for self-expression do not make the mistake of failing to provide for Adjuster-expression, the manifestation of your real and better self.

195:7.6 (2079.1) If this were only a material universe, material man would never be able to arrive at the concept of the mechanistic character of such an exclusively material existence. This very mechanistic concept of the universe is in itself a nonmaterial phenomenon of mind, and all mind is of nonmaterial origin, no matter how thoroughly it may appear to be materially conditioned and mechanistically controlled.

195:7.7 (2079.2) The partially evolved mental mechanism of mortal man is not overendowed with consistency and wisdom. Man’s conceit often outruns his reason and eludes his logic.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
AlainParticipant
Jan 26, 2020, 6:20 AM
Thank you much Bradly for this supportive information.

And I particularly look upon this one:

195:7.5 (2078.8) The realities and values of spiritual progress are not a “psychologic projection”—a mere glorified daydream of the material mind. Such things are the spiritual forecasts of the indwelling Adjuster, the spirit of God living in the mind of man. And let not your dabblings with the faintly glimpsed findings of “relativity” disturb your concepts of the eternity and infinity of God. And in all your solicitation concerning the necessity for self-expression do not make the mistake of failing to provide for Adjuster-expression, the manifestation of your real and better self.

So considering the experiences our Adjusters have gained on other planets (alien to us as you mentioned previously), we must also consider that other planets, while evolving within their particularities, also must grow from the stone age to modern and post modern growth. Meaning that many of them have discovered cement and stone builded housing maybe long before we did. And my assumption is that if our Adjusters can and do use this past experience in their possession for the benefit of our growth, within flashes of seemingly past memories, they surely do it to stimulate some aspect of our motivation and creativity. For me, there is no past life. This is my first one. But if I can benefit from any Adjuster flashes to inspire me in my quest it is good.

^110:7.3 ^(1212.4) Most Adjusters who have translated their subjects from Urantia were highly experienced and of record as previous indwellers of numerous mortals on other spheres. Remember, Adjusters gain valuable indwelling experience on planets of the loan order; it does not follow that Adjusters only gain experience for advanced work in those mortal subjects who fail to survive.

Anyhow, I don’t remember from which chapter I read it from but the UB does say that even within our eternal development our Adjuster will only present to us the immediate useful facts (recorded from his past experience) that impinge on our actual need.
BradlyParticipant
Jan 26, 2020, 3:53 PM
Greetings again Alain!!

The connection between mortal and God Fragment is profoundly important and so interesting. Their ministry to us is one of spiritization and discovery of truth in the religious experience which might lead to fusion. Certainly, we are taught, they apply the entirety and totality of their prior experience to that task.

^44:8.2 ^(507.7) There are three possible sources of special human ability: At the bottom always there exists the natural or inherent aptitude. Special ability is never an arbitrary gift of the Gods; there is always an ancestral foundation for every outstanding talent. In addition to this natural ability, or rather supplemental thereto, there may be contributed the leadings of the Thought Adjuster in those individuals whose indwelling Adjusters may have had actual and bona fide experiences along such lines on other worlds and in other mortal creatures. In those cases where both the human mind and the indwelling Adjuster are unusually skillful, the spirit artisans may be delegated to act as harmonizers of these talents and otherwise to assist and inspire these mortals to seek for ever-perfecting ideals and to attempt their enhanced portrayal for the edification of the realm.

^109:6.1 ^(1200.1) Adjusters never fail; nothing worth surviving is ever lost; every meaningful value in every will creature is certain of survival, irrespective of the survival or nonsurvival of the meaning-discovering or evaluating personality. And so it is, a mortal creature may reject survival; still the life experience is not wasted; the eternal Adjuster carries the worth-while features of such an apparent life of failure over into some other world and there bestows these surviving meanings and values upon some higher type of mortal mind, one of survival capacity. No worth-while experience ever happens in vain; no true meaning or real value ever perishes.

^109:6.2 ^(1200.2) As related to fusion candidates, if a Mystery Monitor is deserted by the mortal associate, if the human partner declines to pursue the ascending career, when released by natural death (or prior thereto), the Adjuster carries away everything of survival value which has evolved in the mind of that nonsurviving creature. If an Adjuster should repeatedly fail to attain fusion personality because of the nonsurvival of successive human subjects, and if this Monitor should subsequently be personalized, all the acquired experience of having indwelt and mastered all these mortal minds would become the actual possession of such a newly Personalized Adjuster, an endowment to be enjoyed and utilized throughout all future ages. A Personalized Adjuster of this order is a composite assembly of all the survival traits of all his former creature hosts.

Me here: we are also warned of the very real dangers of believing in that which the mortal mind can easily invent as fictions, constructs, projections, visions, dreams, illusions, delusions, and memories as real or factual or revelatory.

^100:5.6 ^(1099.4) If one is disposed to recognize a theoretical subconscious mind as a practical working hypothesis in the otherwise unified intellectual life, then, to be consistent, one should postulate a similar and corresponding realm of ascending intellectual activity as the superconscious level, the zone of immediate contact with the indwelling spirit entity, the Thought Adjuster. The great danger in all these psychic speculations is that visions and other so-called mystic experiences, along with extraordinary dreams, may be regarded as divine communications to the human mind. In times past, divine beings have revealed themselves to certain God-knowing persons, not because of their mystic trances or morbid visions, but in spite of all these phenomena.

^100:5.8 ^(1099.6) There is great dangerassociated with the habitual practice of religious daydreaming; mysticism may become a technique of reality avoidance, albeit it has sometimes been a means of genuine spiritual communion. Short seasons of retreat from the busy scenes of life may not be seriously dangerous, but prolonged isolation of personality is most undesirable. Under no circumstances should the trancelike state of visionary consciousness be cultivated as a religious experience.

^100:5.9 ^(1099.7) The characteristics of the mystical state are diffusion of consciousness with vivid islands of focal attention operating on a comparatively passive intellect. All of this gravitates consciousness toward the subconscious rather than in the direction of the zone of spiritual contact, the superconscious. Many mystics have carried their mental dissociation to the level of abnormal mental manifestations.

Me here: we are taught to be both cognizant and wary of the power of mind and its capacity and ingerent design for creative invention! Heroes, ghosts, gods, mythology, and metaphysical explanations for every phenomena and observation and hypothetical cause and effect that we do not understand are the results of the inherent functionality AND design of the mortal mind.

Belief in prior lives is hardly an unusual or profound metaphysical invention to explain fictional memories…especially when those are ‘received’ through any form of mediumship or enhanced, embellished, and articulated by trance or hypnotic ‘assistance’. Those seeking to validate or offer proof of such memories to others provide no evidence with meaning or value.

Whatever the Thought Adjusters might share is certainly related to truth, beauty, and goodness realization and expression…and not a memory of any prior circumstance, situation, or event experienced by a different mortal from a different world and epoch who failed to fuse…I do not think. But just an opinion after all.

The so called visions of past lives shared with me and I have read about all appear very specifically of earth bound humans in historical contexts, many are quite specific indeed!!! Especially those alleged to be “well documented”…a euphemism for detailed in time, character, situation, and historical ‘verification’. It is believed by some (falsely) that the more vivid the memories the more valid the memories. And yet false and invented and embellished memories are most often the most vivid of all memories.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
AlainParticipant
Jan 27, 2020, 3:18 AM
No counter-arguement on my part Bradly.

Many thanks for the info.

Cheers.

Reply on the current forum