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Agondonters

420 posts · 13 participants · started Mar 23, 2017, 2:39 PM

BonitaParticipant
May 18, 2017, 11:28 PM

Bradly wrote: So, conscience also ‘grows’ in purpose and value? Fascinating.

Yeah! That’s what TUB says. I didn’t come up with that all by myself, but it does make sense. If the conscience is tied to human morals and human morals are always evolving, then the conscience has to evolve too. Right? If it doesn’t, something’s wrong.

95:3.2 Moral evolution is not wholly dependent on revelation. High moral concepts can be derived from man’s own experience. Man can even evolve spiritual values and derive cosmic insight from his personal experiential living because a divine spirit indwells him. Such natural evolutions of conscience and character were also augmented by the periodic arrival of teachers of truth, in ancient times from the second Eden, later on from Melchizedek’s headquarters at Salem.

Bradly wrote: Now….how does the mind move from ghost fear based God awareness to the Father/Paternal relationship?

Well isn’t this an evolution as well? I think it evolves faster in a world not turned around backwards and upside down by rebellion and default. We’re told that mind ministry deliberately allows for creature fear (ghost fear) and then works to urge the mind to translate that into Creator fear. Continual overlapping levels of mind ministry, including the spirit presences within the soul, and periodic revelation, are supposed to naturally evolve the mind from fearing our Creator to revering him, then recognizing and appreciating him and finally loving him. TUB does say that “the fear of the Lord” is the beginning of wisdom (68:3.3; 131:2.6; 149:6.5).

149:6.3 “The ‘fear of the Lord’ has had different meanings in the successive ages, coming up from fear, through anguish and dread, to awe and reverence. And now from reverence I would lead you up, through recognition, realization, and appreciation, to love. When man recognizes only the works of God, he is led to fear the Supreme; but when man begins to understand and experience the personality and character of the living God, he is led increasingly to love such a good and perfect, universal and eternal Father. And it is just this changing of the relation of man to God that constitutes the mission of the Son of Man on earth.

I think that’s the meat and potatoes of the Jesus gospel, isn’t it? If you learn to love Jesus, then you’ll likely learn to love the Father (since they’re one) and recognize sonship. But people fight Jesus and his Spirit of Truth all the time. They work really hard to live out what isn’t true, hence all the depressed, miserable people who feed the opium black market, and when nothing works to make them happy, blame everyone else who doesn’t agree with them for not helping them fix the world according to their untruth . . . but alas I digress onto my soapbox . . . sorry . . . it’s one of my really, really big bugaboos.

Anyway, all people have to do is embrace the gospel. It seems so simple, but apparently it is not on this world. People are very slow to evolve their thinking.
GeneParticipant
May 19, 2017, 2:54 PM
Prayer must be a big part of all this.
BonitaParticipant
May 19, 2017, 3:40 PM

Gene wrote:

Prayer must be a big part of all this.

A big part of what?
GeneParticipant
May 19, 2017, 4:05 PM

Bonita wrote:

Gene wrote:

Prayer must be a big part of all this.

A big part of what?

how about the entire thread. The path of the agondonter is Gods will and prayer helps us get better at understanding what Gods will is.
BonitaParticipant
May 19, 2017, 9:19 PM

Gene wrote: The path of the agondonter is Gods will and prayer helps us get better at understanding what Gods will is.

Yeah, that and a whole lot more.
BradlyParticipant
May 20, 2017, 1:35 PM
So….back to the ‘conscious choices’ which bring ‘unconscious growth’ Bonita spoke of earlier. I agreed that any decisions which deliver growth in Spirit are conscious choices and many of those seem unreasonable or not in the immediate and material best interests of the mind making such choices. I think this is evidence then that we are not manipulated, shaped, and molded directly by any of the mind/spirit ministers. The free will is the sacred and absolute barrier that prevents such forces from mind-control, etc. (true liberty). Decisions are the very long ladder or bridge from the animal/material nature to the spirit nature and all such decisions are free will choices that must be reasoned or be responses to an inner urge to express a self forgetting choice; and that when a sufficient number and quality of such choices comes into being (and residing in the morontia mind/soul), then we begin to recognize the larger reality of ‘being’ and the nature of God and his Spirits becomes revealed more consciously.

So I’m thinking this might be a good point to consider personal revelation (PR) for it is this that truly personalizes and accelerates circle progress and our response to PR confirms, strengthens, and perpetuates this inner light of a new form of comprehension, realization, understanding, context, perspective, and influence on future decisions. PR without knowledge of reality may bring great distortions of truth response within and because of our own experiential results and beliefs and view of reality but it does deliver an energy or force nd momentum of spirit progress based on our recognition and response to PR. Thus the need for Epochal Revelation to reduce such confusions and eliminate the errors of context/perspective/belief/knowledge. The two together brings greater reality response and delivers the true nature of God and the religious transformation by transferring the seat of our identity – consciously.

To Gene’s point…….prayer is certainly a conscious act and demonstrates belief in and faith in the spirit nature of mortal and universal realities. I suppose the first prayers of early humanity were to all forms of gods and saints and ghosts but still today many may pray out of fear more than love and adoration and the seeking of the greater Will and Way. The Lord’s Prayer was a gift to transform the prayer and the one who prays in profoundly meaningful ways. The door to worship lies beyond the urge to pray and give thanks?

I also think that every single time we choose a kindness or situational/relationship response that is based on love or self forgetting service, there is a direct and immediate strengthening of the conscious experience that is powerful and rewarding…it feels good inside. And any sacrifice of self importance for the good of others becomes addictive to the soul….a new craving and a new paradigm of value and meaning presents itself….feeding this nature strengthens it and can make it dominant in all choices which leads us into even greater consciousness of truth, beauty, and goodness which becomes a very personal expression of this growing awareness and experience in and of reality.

Looking forward to further integrations and harmonizations of understanding (read – corrections to my view! hahahaha). = )

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
May 20, 2017, 3:01 PM

Bradly wrote: I also think that every single time we choose a kindness or situational/relationship response that is based on love or self forgetting service, there is a direct and immediate strengthening of the conscious experience that is powerful and rewarding…it feels good inside.

I don’t think we should judge whether or not a decision has value based on how it makes us feel inside. Doing the right thing by God does not always feel good. It can feel darn lousy and painful. Like you said, “and many of those seem unreasonable or not in the immediate and material best interests of the mind making such choices.”

They tell us that sometimes we have to experience the death of our fondest hopes (48:6.25), our most cherished ideas, and that hurts like heck. It can make a person want to cry out! But we do it anyway because we love God and we love all that he is even though we’re sweating blood to love him. Jesus showed us what this is like that night in the garden. He was so pained it was almost beyond tolerable. I think some circle making decisions can be like that. Just gut-wrenchingly painful, right down to our very corpuscles. It doesn’t feel good at all. This is why I get so fired up about do-gooders who look for things to do for others that make themselves feel good. That’s all wrong. Backwards.

True goodness is unconscious, therefore the feeling of a “reward” should make us suspicious that it’s not true goodness we just performed. Right? If it’s true goodness, we should be oblivious to it’s effects on ourselves. We wouldn’t have any idea it happened . . . like Jesus. But I agree that when we are truly good, we leave a trail of actualized reality behind us which increases our capacity to actualize even more. It’s that divine invasion of the soul thing (196:3.17). The act is ours but the consequences are God’s, so we should not expect any kind of reward, no warm and fuzzy feeling inside, no self-flattering attaboys at all. I think that leads to spiritual pride, a dangerous path.
BonitaParticipant
May 20, 2017, 3:20 PM

Bradly wrote: So I’m thinking this might be a good point to consider personal revelation (PR) for it is this that truly personalizes and accelerates circle progress . . .

Maybe it would be a good idea to define personal revelation and how you think it relates to the psychic circles, if it does at all. I believe there is a difference between personal revelation and personal religious experience that needs to be clarified. Personal religious experiences are not always related to circle mastery.

It is my experience that it is the circle work itself which results in increased revelations of truth. In other words, I’m not sure that it’s personal revelation which moves us forward in the psychic circles, but rather the other way around. The psychic work we do makes the difference. Decisions are made by the mind and chosen by the personality. The effort and work done to enhance the mind arena of choice improves the likelihood of Adjuster revelation. That effort and work is humble prayer and trusting communion, in my experience. It keeps the arena clean, pure, beautiful, open and easy-breezy for the Spirit to do his work. All I have to do is discover, recognize, allow the Spirit to interpret for me, and then choose. But that is enough work for a human tadpole, donchya think? Plenty, in my opinion. I don’t think we’re capable of much more, to be honest. If we think we’re capable of more, then we’re probably succumbing to pride or delusion. Dangerous stuff.
AnonymousInactive
May 20, 2017, 6:27 PM

Bonita wrote:

[. . .]This is why I get so fired up about do-gooders who look for things to do for others that make themselves feel good. That’s all wrong. Backwards.
True goodness is unconscious, therefore the feeling of a “reward” should make us suspicious that it’s not true goodness we just performed. Right? [. . .]

Wrong; for those who cannot feel love, have really never loved, or have been loved, in the first place, and would also not recognize love from others.

(1097.7) 100:4.3 But the great problem of religious living consists in the task of unifying the soul powers of the personality by the dominance of LOVE. Health, mental efficiency, and happiness arise from the unification of physical systems, mind systems, and spirit systems. Of health and sanity man understands much, but of happiness he has truly realized very little. The highest happiness is indissolubly linked with spiritual progress. Spiritual growth yields lasting joy, peace which passes all understanding.

(1098.1) 100:4.4 In physical life the senses tell of the existence of things; mind discovers the reality of meanings; but the spiritual experience reveals to the individual the true values of life. These high levels of human living are attained in the supreme love of God and in the unselfish love of man. If you love your fellow men, you must have discovered their values. Jesus loved men so much because he placed such a high value upon them. You can best discover values in your associates by discovering their motivation. If someone irritates you, causes feelings of resentment, you should sympathetically seek to discern his viewpoint, his reasons for such objectionable conduct. If once you understand your neighbor, you will become tolerant, and this tolerance will grow into friendship and ripen into love.

(1638.5) 146:2.5 4. There is a basic law of justice in the universe which mercy is powerless to circumvent. The unselfish glories of Paradise are not possible of reception by a thoroughly selfish creature of the realms of time and space. Even the infinite love of God cannot force the salvation of eternal survival upon any mortal creature who does not choose to survive. Mercy has great latitude of bestowal, but, after all, there are mandates of justice which even love combined with mercy cannot effectively abrogate. Again Jesus quoted from the Hebrew scriptures: “I have called and you refused to hear; I stretched out my hand, but no man regarded. You have set at naught all my counsel, and you have rejected my reproof, and because of this rebellious attitude it becomes inevitable that you shall call upon me and fail to receive an answer. Having rejected the way of life, you may seek me diligently in your times of suffering, but you will not find me.”
MaraParticipant
May 20, 2017, 6:41 PM

Bonita wrote:

If it’s true goodness, we should be oblivious to it’s effects on ourselves. We wouldn’t have any idea it happened . . . like Jesus.

Well, I don’t know how Jesus felt. It does feel good to know you have done something to help someone – something someone really needed done. I think doing good can be both unconscious by the fact, I suggest, that none of us really know the effect we have on someone, and, the fact that it is conscious because we know when we have stepped up to help someone in need. And of course there are those spontaneous act of kindness being scattered abroad like confetti.
BonitaParticipant
May 20, 2017, 8:23 PM
If you’re living the righteous life, a religious life, then everything you do would feel good because you do it out of love rather than duty. This is going to sound a little crazy, but I’m using a bit of the ridiculous for example:

I feel good brushing my teeth in the morning because I love my teeth not because I feel a duty to brush them. I feel good about feeding the cat because I love my cat not because I feel a duty to feed her. I feel good about paying my bills because I love the convenience of water and electric, not because I feel a duty to those companies. I feel good about cleaning my house because I love a beautiful house, not because I feel a duty to clean.

I know that’s an exaggeration, but how you approach even the mundane things in life is an indication of how you will approach the more important things in life. Comparing love of my teeth to love of my neighbor sounds nuts, but it isn’t. That loving attitude spreads to everything you do. So helping the fellow in the scooter at the supermarket get something off a shelf, or picking something off the floor for the lady at checkout with a baby in one arm and a toddler crawling up her leg, should feel no better than brushing your teeth. It’s all good stuff. It’s living the righteous life, what I called at one time, bringing love to life.

If you’re always doing things out of love, even cleaning the toilets is a good feeling, and you wouldn’t notice a difference between that and driving the old lady down the street to her doctor’s appointment. Yes they are different in their overall value perhaps, but selfless love doesn’t discriminate and choose between these things except to stop cleaning the toilet when someone cries for help . . . that’s called prioritizing . . . hope you get my gist. Everything a kingdom dweller does is sacred. Nothing is common or ordinary. And that’s because of the attitude with which it is done. If you do everything out of love, as if for God, then there is no difference in the good feeling you get from brushing your teeth or for bringing your shut-in friend a meal. It’s all the same goodness from a love so ingrained that it has become unconscious. Hope this makes sense.

192.2.13 Never forget that, when you are a faith son of God, all upright work of the realm is sacred. Nothing which a son of God does can be common. Do your work, therefore, from this time on, as for God. And when you are through on this world, I have other and better worlds where you shall likewise work for me. And in all of this work, on this world and on other worlds, I will work with you, and my spirit shall dwell within you.

But if you wake up in the morning and say to yourself, let me find something my friend wants done and do it for her today because I need to feel good. Then you’re screwed up backwards and inside out. That’s the point I’m trying to make. One is a conscious attempt to do one thing, at one time that is good; the other is a conscious attempt to be something good all the time, no matter where or what. In which case, you’d hardly notice one good feeling from the other because it would be a part of living. That is, except those times when God asks you to do those things which are really painful, you just do it and say, “Even though he slay me, yet will I serve him.” (101:3.16)
MaraParticipant
May 20, 2017, 10:10 PM
What I am conscious of is my love for God. I do have intervals of disobedience in doing God’s will, and I know when I misbehave and I’m always in a big hurry to get back on track. It seems acts of *good* have varying degrees of potency which are in proportion to the *divinity* of the underlying motivations.

48:6.7 On the mansion worlds they proclaim the great law of the conservation and dominance of goodness: No act of good is ever wholly lost; it may be long thwarted but never wholly annulled, and it is eternally potent in proportion to the divinity of its motivation.

MidiChlorian wrote: “Jesus loved men so much because. . . .”

That’s a good one. Here’s another:

196:3.29 Love is the highest motivation which man may utilize in his universe ascent.
MaraParticipant
May 20, 2017, 10:16 PM

Bonita wrote:

That is, except those times when God asks you to do those things which are really painful, you just do it and say, “Even though he slay me, yet will I serve him.” (101:3.16)

Yes, I recently experienced this. And lived to tell about it!
GeneParticipant
May 21, 2017, 1:20 AM
Paper 143:2.4, 5 and 6

talk about constant renewal and regeneration.

first the spirit of truth transforms and strengthens the inner soul by constant spiritual renewing in our minds

then Jeremiah is quoted and we are reminded how deceitful and desperately wicked our hearts can be.

Then we are told that salvation is by regeneration of the spirit.

My thoughts are a bit out of context with the teaching Jesus was working on but the idea of regeneration, constant renewing caught my attention.

Seems that being in the kingdom allows for our mistakes?? Even helps us grow??
BonitaParticipant
May 21, 2017, 12:16 PM

Gene wrote:

My thoughts are a bit out of context with the teaching Jesus was working on but the idea of regeneration, constant renewing caught my attention.

Yeah, that’s what I was saying over on the kingdom of heaven thread:

Accepting sonship, discovering and recognizing God as our Father and opening our hearts to the idea of not being an only child is like discovering a whole new part of our heritage we didn’t know existed before. New horizons open up and the world seems much different from that point on. It’s that different type of outlook on life, that new view of reality seen from within the kingdom that I’m interested in discussing. There’s a list (170:2.2-8) that describes this new attitude. What makes it so wonderful?

Doesn’t look like there’s much interest for a discussion of newness on that thread, but since you bring it up here, there is that list describing what newness is all about. And of course the job of making all things new, while at the same time renewing the Jesus message, belongs to the Spirit of Truth.

115:3.16 Always will actuals be opening up new avenues of the realization of hitherto impossible potentials – every human decision not only actualizes a new reality in human experience but also opens up a new capacity for human growth. The man lives in every child, and the morontia progressor is resident in the mature God-knowing man.

I think it’s the newness that makes life exciting and fun. I know if I go out and buy a new outfit, or a new trinket for the house I’m flying high for a while. Imagine what happens when it’s not a new material thing, but a new spiritual revelation! How high and how long do I fly then? Like forever.
GeneParticipant
May 21, 2017, 2:32 PM
Morontia Progressor: lots of meaning in those two words and only mentioned two other times that I could find:

The final dynamics of the cosmos have to do with the continual transfer of reality from potentiality to actuality. In theory, there may be an end to this metamorphosis, but in fact, such is impossible since the Potential and the Actual are both encircuited in the Original (the I AM), and this identification makes it forever impossible to place a limit on the developmental progression of the universe. Whatsoever is identified with the I AM can never find an end to progression since the actuality of the potentials of the I AM is absolute, and the potentiality of the actuals of the I AM is also absolute. Always will actuals be opening up new avenues of the realization of hitherto impossible potentials — every human decision not only actualizes a new reality in human experience but also opens up a new capacity for human growth. The man lives in every child, and the morontia progressor is resident in the mature God-knowing man.
119:8.8 [Part III]
Urantia is the sentimental shrine of all Nebadon, the chief of ten million inhabited worlds, the mortal home of Christ Michael, sovereign of all Nebadon, a Melchizedek minister to the realms, a system savior, an Adamic redeemer, a seraphic fellow, an associate of ascending spirits, a morontia progressor, a Son of Man in the likeness of mortal flesh, and the Planetary Prince of Urantia. And your record tells the truth when it says that this same Jesus has promised sometime to return to the world of his terminal bestowal, the World of the Cross.*

An experience us mortals can actually share with Jesus.

but the feel good part is realizing the progress, not necessarily the path
BonitaParticipant
May 21, 2017, 3:36 PM

Gene wrote: . . . but the feel good part is realizing the progress, not necessarily the path

Naah, I think the path also feels good most of the time. There are some uncomfortable decisions and some downright painful decisions, but they don’t seem to be all that regular an occurrence . . . at least not for me, not anymore, that is. But then again, maybe I’m not progressing. That’s a possibility I suppose. All I know is that I’m having a fantastic time on earth right now. It’s been a really rough go. Lots of superbly horrible nonsense to deal with over the years, but it seems to me like I don’t remember the pain as much as the good things that came out of it. Or at least the good things overshadow the bad so much that I loose interest in the bad. Not sure. Anyway, bringing love to life . . . really bringing it . . . is a delight, I have to say. It does feel good to me.

If I think about it, I think self-discipline makes life a lot easier. At least there’s a lot less chaos and a lot fewer people casting their evil shadows on me than there were earlier in my life. That certainly makes life more fun. Plus it’s all new. (Not sure if that’s because of senile decay of brain cells or the Spirit of Truth, but yeah, lots of things seem new to me all the time.)

119:8.8 The man lives in every child, and the morontia progressor is resident in the mature God-knowing man.

There’s a companion quote for that:

48:6.2 You should understand that the morontia life of an ascending mortal is really initiated on the inhabited words at the conception of the soul, at that moment when the creature mind of moral status is indwelt by the spirit Adjuster. And from that moment on, the mortal soul has potential capacity for supermortal function, even for recognition on the higher levels of the morontia spheres of the local universe.
AnonymousInactive
May 21, 2017, 6:56 PM

Bonita wrote:

If I think about it, I think self-discipline makes life a lot easier. At least there’s a lot less chaos and a lot fewer people casting their evil shadows on me than there were earlier in my life. That certainly makes life more fun. Plus it’s all new.

(1609.4) 143:2.3 “Verily, verily, I say to you, he who rules his own self is greater than he who captures a city. Self-mastery is the measure of man’s moral nature and the indicator of his spiritual development. In the old order you fasted and prayed; as the new creature of the rebirth of the spirit, you are taught to believe and rejoice. In the Father’s kingdom you are to become new creatures; old things are to pass away; behold I show you how all things are to become new. And by your love for one another you are to convince the world that you have passed from bondage to liberty, from death into life everlasting.

(1609.5) 143:2.4 “By the old way you seek to suppress, obey, and conform to the rules of living; by the new way you are first transformed by the Spirit of Truth and thereby strengthened in your inner soul by the constant spiritual renewing of your mind, and so are you endowed with the power of the certain and joyous performance of the gracious, acceptable, and perfect will of God. Forget not — it is your personal faith in the exceedingly great and precious promises of God that ensures your becoming partakers of the divine nature. Thus by your faith and the spirit’s transformation, you become in reality the temples of God, and his spirit actually dwells within you. If, then, the spirit dwells within you, you are no longer bondslaves of the flesh but free and liberated sons of the spirit. The new law of the spirit endows you with the liberty of self-mastery in place of the old law of the fear of self-bondage and the slavery of self-denial.

(1609.6) 143:2.5 “Many times, when you have done evil, you have thought to charge up your acts to the influence of the evil one when in reality you have but been led astray by your own natural tendencies. Did not the Prophet Jeremiah long ago tell you that the human heart is deceitful above all things and sometimes even desperately wicked? How easy for you to become self-deceived and thereby fall into foolish fears, divers lusts, enslaving pleasures, malice, envy, and even vengeful hatred!

(1610.1) 143:2.6 “Salvation is by the regeneration of the spirit and not by the self-righteous deeds of the flesh. You are justified by faith and fellowshipped by grace, not by fear and the self-denial of the flesh, albeit the Father’s children who have been born of the spirit are ever and always masters of the self and all that pertains to the desires of the flesh. When you know that you are saved by faith, you have real peace with God. And all who follow in the way of this heavenly peace are destined to be sanctified to the eternal service of the ever-advancing sons of the eternal God. Henceforth, it is not a duty but rather your exalted privilege to cleanse yourselves from all evils of mind and body while you seek for perfection in the love of God.

(1610.2) 143:2.7 “Your sonship is grounded in faith, and you are to remain unmoved by fear. Your joy is born of trust in the divine word, and you shall not therefore be led to doubt the reality of the Father’s love and mercy. It is the very goodness of God that leads men into true and genuine repentance. Your secret of the mastery of self is bound up with your faith in the indwelling spirit, which ever works by love. Even this saving faith you have not of yourselves; it also is the gift of God. And if you are the children of this living faith, you are no longer the bondslaves of self but rather the triumphant masters of yourselves, the liberated sons of God.

(1610.3) 143:2.8 “If, then, my children, you are born of the spirit, you are forever delivered from the self-conscious bondage of a life of self-denial and watchcare over the desires of the flesh, and you are translated into the joyous kingdom of the spirit, whence you spontaneously show forth the fruits of the spirit in your daily lives; and the fruits of the spirit are the essence of the highest type of enjoyable and ennobling self-control, even the heights of terrestrial mortal attainment — true self-mastery.”
BradlyParticipant
May 23, 2017, 4:26 PM
Thanks again to all contributors….what a winding path that has touched so many related issues!! I look forward to more. In the meantime, I often browse through older topics here and found many which go deeper into a particular topic or offer new perspectives on the same topics as discussed here. I thought it appropriate to post some links here for the enjoyment of those students who might like a more in depth study. This list is not exhaustive or all inclusive so others may also wish to do the same. Well done All!!

First up is the current discussion begun by Bonita: https://urassoc.arko.nyc/forums/topic/the-kingdom-of-heaven/

Growth part 3

Personality survival

What is conscience?

The Urantia Book and the Soul

The UB on Genuine and Personal Religious Experience

Calling All Philosophers

Destinies of Ascending Sons

I’ll be back with more…that’s just from 5 pages of 15 pages of topics – 203 total !!! = )

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
May 23, 2017, 4:44 PM
True Religion

Essay on the Alter Ego Approach to Prayer

Spiritual insight

Adjutant Mind-Spirits

The Soul- An Experiential Acquirement

Living Loyally

Who Am "I"?

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

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