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Personality survival

43 posts · 8 participants · started Feb 18, 2015, 7:38 PM

  1. What is your understanding regarding personality survival and, in particular, the timing of such.  This quote from TUB pretty much says it in a nutshell:

    Under the sub-heading of Adjuster Fusion in the Personality Survival paper 112.

    (1238.1)112:7.6 On the evolutionary worlds, selfhood is material; it is a thing in the universe and as such is subject to the laws of material existence. It is a fact in time and is responsive to the vicissitudes thereof. Survival decisions must here be formulated. In the morontia state the self has become a new and more enduring universe reality, and its continuing growth is predicated on its increasing attunement to the mind and spirit circuits of the universes. Survival decisions are now being confirmed. When the self attains the spiritual level, it has become a secure value in the universe, and this new value is predicated upon the fact that survival decisions have been made, which fact has been witnessed by eternal fusion with the Thought Adjuster. And having achieved the status of a true universe value, the creature becomes liberated in potential for the seeking of the highest universe value — God.

    This seems to say that the first step in personality survival is that a decision must be “formulated” while on the evolutionary world.  Is that others’ understanding as well?  I wonder what is meant by “formulated”?  What I am getting at here, is I am wondering about my loved ones who are devoted to their atheism and would very likely never acknowledge that a survival decision is incumbent upon them or that there is any Diety that would care one way or another.

    Are they doomed to lose all chances of personality survival if they do not change their beliefs before their physical death? Is this what awaits people who die as athiest:

     

    (1232.3)112:5.2 That which comes from the Father is like the Father eternal, and this is just as true of personality, which God gives by his own freewill choice, as it is of the divine Thought Adjuster, an actual fragment of God. Man’s personality is eternal but with regard to identity a conditioned eternal reality. Having appeared in response to the Father’s will, personality will attain Deity destiny, but man must choose whether or not he will be present at the attainment of such destiny. In default of such choice, personality attains experiential Deity directly, becoming a part of the Supreme Being. The cycle is foreordained, but man’s participation therein is optional, personal, and experiential.

    If so, does this mean that my atheist loved ones will not experience the Mansion Worlds and will not be  recognizable as an individual personality?

  2. Mark KurtzParticipant
    Feb 18, 2015, 8:53 PM

    Formulate is an important word you’ve highlighted for attention.  Consider a dictionary definition:

    formulate |ˈfôrmyəˌlāt|verb [ with obj. ]create or devise methodically (a strategy or a proposal): economists and statisticians were needed to help formulate economic policy.•     express (an idea) in a concise or systematic way: the argument is sufficiently clear that it can be formulated mathematically.  

    It seems to me the authors imply an active preparation in one’s mind, a process of acceptance, in this case for relating to God, not necessarily to a religion for which an atheist may find objections.  In other words, there is no stagnant mind situation; formulating is action.  The authors apparently are aware of and have a lot of experience with mortals on many different planets throughout Nebadon and therefore they know we may question and wonder through religion and spiritual mysteries.  One can hardly formulate without active thought.  They know mortals may object to religions and that some may like to be referred to as atheists.  But, we could all do well by recalling the parable of the late coming workers who were paid the same as those who worked all day.  Some atheists likely will give in, even at last moments, some not waiting until last breaths, to accept “possible” spirit realities and a God.  We are also informed no human being has ever been authorized to the judge the soul status of another.  We are right to be  concerned, but perhaps all we can do for some is to offer questions to inspire curiosity.   Some questions will stick in their minds  and maybe nag!  For this possibility perhaps, we should never say never!  This is all I can do with my limited experiences with atheists.  Perhaps you can do more!

    With the above said, we cannot guarantee what thoughts will come to mind of atheists!  They may be adamant, but when it comes down to reality of wondering and uncertainty regarding mortality of self, there may be ‘second thoughts’.  We are reminded the Gods would not want to lose even one  soul; therefore mercy is ample and flowing for those who genuinely change heart, even weakly so.  It seems we cannot absolutely address your question of whether your relatives will experience the Mansion Worlds.

    Maybe this helps; maybe not!

  3. BradlyParticipant
    Feb 18, 2015, 8:57 PM

    I don’t think so Keryn but must advise you that this issue of who survives and how many is one that perplexes most of us and seems to have no clear specificity in text.  I think the “love-response” is critically important though.  We are told that knowledge and belief are secondary to love and faith.  But how can an atheist have faith?  We are also told that we have near endless mercy credits and they cannot be spent down without a “knowing” “rejection”.  Well then, just how can a mortal on this crazy world “know” enough to “reject” a reality they know nothing about?  It is confusing.

    I think the bottom line is that when a soul is created by free will choice, that additional choices and love extensions (remember that true love is a circuit….it cannot be held but only given to be received) and the appreciation of truth, beauty, and goodness does still attend and serve spirit progress in those who have no context for or belief in or knowledge of universe reality.  That there is still opportunity for circle progress.  But I am no authority on the matter.  But we are told that the flicker and the possibility of reality response keeps the mercy credits working still.  I am convinced of our friendly universe and the opportunity to experience our potential beyond such a brief, mortal life on a world such as ours.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  4. BonitaParticipant
    Feb 18, 2015, 8:58 PM
    Keryn wrote:

    If so, does this mean that my atheist loved ones will not experience the Mansion Worlds and will not be  recognizable as an individual personality?

    Not necessarily.  Atheists come in all stripes.  Having a problem believing in the existence of  personal Deity is not a fatal flaw.  What about all those religions that don’t have any concept of the personhood of Deity?  Some people worship a singularity of some sort.  Whatever . . .  Do they at least recognize truth, beauty and goodness?

    I don’t think you have anything to worry about concerning your relatives.  They may have to wait until the next dispensation for resurrection, but that’s not a big deal either. Time is not an issue.

    I’m always comforted by the mercy credits.  Each person is given enough to ensure survival.  And survival is assured until a person is completely conscious of their decision.  I don’t think the judges count ignorance of truth against anyone.  Once someone has been satisfactorily educated and still doesn’t want any part of it, then I suppose those credits might run out.  But I think you have to be a very empty selfish person to go down that road.

  5. emanny3003Blocked
    Feb 19, 2015, 12:52 AM

    You are not to worry about yourselves or others. Be good and do good. You have and Infinite Father. Why are the children always worried for tomorrow when you must be good and do good, NOW. Enter the Kingdom now.

  6. BonitaParticipant
    Feb 19, 2015, 1:27 PM

    It looks as though Bradly and I posted at the same time and pretty much said the same thing; and Mark said similar. I love when that happens.

    I do think that anyone who earnestly attempts to live the golden rule will be saved.  Living the golden rule is evidence of a moral nature and the moral nature is evidence of spiritual ministry within the mind.  I think that counts as a flicker.  I don’t think it is necessary to call it God, but to recognize it as “other-than-self”.  Those who are completely selfish and have no concern for others are the ones I think who are in the most peril, even if they claim to believe in God.

  7. emanny3003Blocked
    Feb 19, 2015, 2:26 PM

    Not to worry;

    do good, be good

  8. BonitaParticipant
    Feb 19, 2015, 3:23 PM

    Jesus always insisted that true goodness must be unconscious (140:8.26).  Therefore, one’s goodness towards others is not necessarily conscious either.  I think if you try to go around doing good, you get points for the effort, but what you’re doing may or may not actually be good, especially if you’re conscious of it.

    Do-gooders always seem to mean well.  Intentions are worth something, but acts can be evil even if the intentions are not.   Adam and Eve are good examples of that.  I think we should take heart even they made that mistake, so we are not exempt from it either.  It takes a great deal of devotion to be selfless.  We all miss the mark, which is why I think well-intentioned atheists are just as welcome in heaven as supposedly God-loving souls.

     

  9. Mark KurtzParticipant
    Feb 19, 2015, 9:34 PM

    Keryn,

    I am reading the Ordination Sermon, the great message Jesus gave the Apostles after presenting them to the Father.  I suggest a thoughtful reading of Papers 139-140 could offer anyone a basis for growth and success at helping others to become believers in God.  Its humbling to realize how much work is needed, but moving in the direction Jesus models here is good.  The main point is for us all to become like he suggests and people will be attracted.  No doctrine or adopting any religion is necessary.

     

  10. Mark – that makes a lot of sense to me.  I have been working on that approach with my loved ones who are proud about their non-belief in God.  I have just quietly tried to be an example of the peace of mind and sustained sense of well being that comes from having faith in our Universal Father and of the example of Jesus in loving my brothers and sisters as Jesus would love them.

  11. emanny3003Blocked
    Feb 19, 2015, 10:25 PM
    Bonita wrote:

    Jesus always insisted that true goodness must be unconscious (140:8.26). Therefore, one’s goodness towards others is not necessarily conscious either. I think if you try to go around doing good, you get points for the effort, but what you’re doing may or may not actually be good, especially if you’re conscious of it.

    Do-gooders always seem to mean well. Intentions are worth something, but acts can be evil even if the intentions are not. Adam and Eve are good examples of that. I think we should take heart even they made that mistake, so we are not exempt from it either. It takes a great deal of devotion to be selfless. We all miss the mark, which is why I think well-intentioned atheists are just as welcome in heaven as supposedly God-loving souls.

    Agreed.

    Be good first and then doing good is an unconscious act of being.

  12. Mark KurtzParticipant
    Feb 20, 2015, 3:33 AM

    Also what comes to mind are the 11 fruits of the divine Spirit the Morontia Jesus stated during his last appearance to the 11 remaining apostles.  We are a good example of God when we exhibit 1) Loving service 2) Unselfish devotion 3) Courageous loyalty 4) Sincere fairness 5) Enlightened honesty 6) Undying hope 7) Confiding trust 8) Merciful ministry 9) Unfailing goodness 10) Forgiving tolerance and 11) Enduring peace.

    I thinks its difficult to exhibit all of these well as mortals, but we are assured on high these are sure signs of Godliness.  I guess we are to have faith that these fruits will attract persons to like God.  After all, what material substance or machine can match these?  What mathematical formula can define these 11 attractive spiritual features?  I guess it takes faith to believe these will eventually attract what is good in a person.   A person would have to knowingly and willfully work hard to resist these divine features.

    Find these at 193:2.2

    Enough said.

  13. BonitaParticipant
    Feb 20, 2015, 12:16 PM
    Mark Kurtz wrote:  The main point is for us all to become like he suggests and people will be attracted.  No doctrine or adopting any religion is necessary.

    I agree with that.  I’m reminded of what Jesus told the apostles about this very thing:

    155:1.5 “Let me emphatically state this eternal truth: If you, by truth co-ordination, learn to exemplify in your lives this beautiful wholeness of righteousness, your fellow men will then seek after you that they may gain what you have so acquired. The measure wherewith truth seekers are drawn to you represents the measure of your truth endowment, your righteousness. The extent to which you have to go with your message to the people is, in a way, the measure of your failure to live the whole or righteous life, the truth-co-ordinated life.”

  14. emanny3003Blocked
    Feb 21, 2015, 12:54 AM
    Mark Kurtz wrote:

    Also what comes to mind are the 11 fruits of the divine Spirit the Morontia Jesus stated during his last appearance to the 11 remaining apostles.  We are a good example of God when we exhibit 1) Loving service 2) Unselfish devotion 3) Courageous loyalty 4) Sincere fairness 5) Enlightened honesty 6) Undying hope 7) Confiding trust 8) Merciful ministry 9) Unfailing goodness 10) Forgiving tolerance and 11) Enduring peace.

    Yes. Be good.

  15. BradlyParticipant
    Feb 22, 2015, 3:15 AM
    Mark Kurtz wrote:

    Also what comes to mind are the 11 fruits of the divine Spirit the Morontia Jesus stated during his last appearance to the 11 remaining apostles. We are a good example of God when we exhibit 1) Loving service 2) Unselfish devotion 3) Courageous loyalty 4) Sincere fairness 5) Enlightened honesty 6) Undying hope 7) Confiding trust 8) Merciful ministry 9) Unfailing goodness 10) Forgiving tolerance and 11) Enduring peace.

     

    While these are the fruits of spirit progress, they may also serve as aspirations or modes/models for “being” since they are also the very motives, intentions, priorities, choices and practices/acts which lead to spirit progress.  I think something to consider is that these qualities have an unlimited/infinite capacity for evermore improvement and perfecting into ultimate perfection of being.   The quality and quantity, as well as the sequence and aggregation of such choices, which brings forth the fruit, is unique to each ascender and this personalization of these fruits creates unique hybrids of each ascender too…..and all fruit thusly created casts forth the resulting seeds of cause further…..and resides within the experiential Supreme.

    So I most certainly agree it is “difficult to exhibit” all of these (as Mark says) and every situation is a new challenge to us and requires another response.  There is a season in our spiritization experience where we must be very aware and thoughtful when faced with our choices, but success in this season leads eventually to where these choices and situations are faced “instinctually” and automatically, by ingrained and righteous reflex….innocent as a dove and wise as a serpent.  I think this is the example of our Master.  Now, certainly, Jesus was contemplative and purposeful and mindful but he responded to every circumstance and situation with a grace and poise that only comes from great wisdom and experience it seems to me.

    At least this is so once he left the workbench when his hour had come.  But what about before that?  Jesus seems to have exhibited such a unified personality and purposeful poise even as a youth.  I find this fascinating and incomprehensible relative to my slow and tumultuous transfer of the seat of identity and time unit adjustments.  Imagine the time to come when most, even all, beings around us and including us exhibits all these fruits in force and in harmony!

    ;-)

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  16. BonitaParticipant
    Feb 22, 2015, 2:43 PM

    Remember that it is the character of the personality that changes and it is the character of the personality that determines survivability.   We are supposed to grow in divinity of character.  It’s not a measure of how divine you are but the fact that your inherited character is growing in divinity (becoming more Godlike).  Not everyone is born with good heredity when it comes to character. A bad character is difficult to overcome regardless of the environment, and a good character requires a proper environment in order to blossom.  Remember what we were told about Cain and Abel when it comes to the interplay between inherited character and environment?

    76:2.6 While a good environment cannot contribute much toward really overcoming the character handicaps of a base heredity, a bad environment can very effectively spoil an excellent inheritance, at least during the younger years of life. Good social environment and proper education are indispensable soil and atmosphere for getting the most out of a good inheritance.

     

  17. MaraParticipant
    Feb 22, 2015, 3:44 PM
    Bonita wrote:

    76:2.6 While a good environment cannot contribute much toward really overcoming the character handicaps of a base heredity . . . .

    What is a base heredity?

     

  18. BonitaParticipant
    Feb 22, 2015, 5:12 PM
    Mara wrote:  What is a base heredity?

    A base heredity is an inherited character which is ignoble, low-minded, mean, immoral, improper, unscrupulous, unprincipled, dishonest, shameful, bad, wrong, evil, wicked.

    A good inherited character is the opposite: noble, high-minded, kind, moral, proper, scrupulous, principled, honest, admirable, good, right, virtuous, righteous.

     

     

  19. BonitaParticipant
    Feb 24, 2015, 3:22 PM

    Just for fun, I thought I’d remind everyone of the fact that even though an identity may become extinct, personality survives as part of the Supreme (2:3.4).   It’s not really personality survival, it’s identity survival.  Personality is not identity; the two can be separated.  Identity is merely an attribute of a unifying personality.

    112:0.7 5. Personality, while devoid of identity, can unify the identity of any living energy system.

  20. MaraParticipant
    Feb 24, 2015, 4:41 PM
    Bonita wrote:  A base heredity is an inherited character which is ignoble, low-minded, mean, immoral, improper, unscrupulous, unprincipled, dishonest, shameful, bad, wrong, evil, wicked.
    Are you sure these are inherited?  I was thinking more along the lines of the failure of the occurrence of the first moral choice of the human child, i.e. such a choice is not made, and therefore the seventh adjutant mind spirit is not activated, and therefore a Thought Adjuster is not dispatched from Divinington.

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