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Agondonters

420 posts · 13 participants · started Mar 23, 2017, 2:39 PM

  1. BradlyParticipant
    Apr 5, 2017, 6:32 PM

    Van/nod says:  “What I propose is to take all what the Urantia Book says together and allow those spiritual agents that exist to enhance our spiritual perception to prevent what the revelators describe as degenerates to increase the misery, and to eliminate the likelihood that they will add to the agony many endure on our world. For example, the people of Syria.
    Regarding the folly of allowing the degeneration of society to advance, what do you propose to do about what the Urantia Book says Bradly?”

     

    You’re not making any sense nod….and this has nothing to do with the topic under discussion….thanks for derailing and taking over yet another discussion.  Keryn answered perfectly well for me.  You are the one always concerned with what others are doing or not and should be doing or not.

    I have confidence that our planetary evolution through the Mortal Epochs will bring us to a time (in 5-10 more generations) when medical science, social wisdom, brotherly love, and experiential wisdom will be able to address genetic faults and eugenic solutions driven by love, compassion, wisdom, and capabilities….none of which we have today….and yet science is on the cutting edge of biogenetic engineering way before the group wisdom Bonita mentions.

    Impatience is the immature expression of the incorrect time unit perspective.  Now get back to Agondonters….or hold your tongue please.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  2. AnonymousInactive
    Apr 5, 2017, 6:35 PM

    (920.3) 82:6.5 Hybridization of superior and dissimilar stocks is the secret of the creation of new and more vigorous strains. And this is true of plants, animals, and the human species. Hybridization augments vigor and increases fertility. Race mixtures of the average or superior strata of various peoples greatly increase creative potential, as is shown in the present population of the United States of North America. When such matings take place between the lower or inferior strata, creativity is diminished, as is shown by the present-day peoples of southern India.

    (920.4) 82:6.6 Race blending greatly contributes to the sudden appearance of new characteristics, and if such hybridization is the union of superior strains, then these new characteristics will also be superior traits.

    (920.5) 82:6.7 As long as present-day races are so overloaded with inferior and degenerate strains, race intermingling on a large scale would be most detrimental, but most of the objections to such experiments rest on social and cultural prejudices rather than on biological considerations. Even among inferior stocks, hybrids often are an improvement on their ancestors. Hybridization makes for species improvement because of the role of the dominant genes. Racial intermixture increases the likelihood of a larger number of the desirable dominants being present in the hybrid.

    (920.6) 82:6.8 For the past hundred years more racial hybridization has been taking place on Urantia than has occurred in thousands of years. The danger of gross disharmonies as a result of crossbreeding of human stocks has been greatly exaggerated. The chief troubles of “half-breeds” are due to social prejudices.

     

    (920.7) 82:6.9 The Pitcairn experiment of blending the white and Polynesian races turned out fairly well because the white men and the Polynesian women were of fairly good racial strains. Interbreeding between the highest types of the white, red, and yellow races would immediately bring into existence many new and biologically effective characteristics. These three peoples belong to the primary Sangik races. Mixtures of the white and black races are not so desirable in their immediate results, neither are such mulatto offspring so objectionable as social and racial prejudice would seek to make them appear. Physically, such white-black hybrids are excellent specimens of humanity, notwithstanding their slight inferiority in some other respects.

    (920.8) 82:6.10 When a primary Sangik race amalgamates with a secondary Sangik race, the latter is considerably improved at the expense of the former. And on a small scale — extending over long periods of time — there can be little serious objection to such a sacrificial contribution by the primary races to the betterment of the secondary groups. Biologically considered, the secondary Sangiks were in some respects superior to the primary races.

    (921.1) 82:6.11 After all, the real jeopardy of the human species is to be found in the unrestrained multiplication of the inferior and degenerate strains of the various civilized peoples rather than in any supposed danger of their racial interbreeding.

  3. VanAmadon wrote:

    Please try to understand. The terms the revelators used: idiots degenerates defectives and so forth, I use to emphasize what the Urantia Book says. If you were invaded in your home at night by someone who we can be safe to say can be described by the terms the revelators use, would you be kind, or nice to him? Or would you “fahgettaboutit” in the aftermath?

    I knew where the terms came from; I was not offended by the terms.

    Are you familiar with the phrase ‘turn the other cheek’?

    140:3.14 (1571.1) “I am sending you out into the world to represent me and to act as ambassadors of my Father’s kingdom, and as you go forth to proclaim the glad tidings, put your trust in the Father whose messengers you are. Do not forcibly resist injustice; put not your trust in the arm of the flesh. If your neighbor smites you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Be willing to suffer injustice rather than to go to law among yourselves. In kindness and with mercy minister to all who are in distress and in need.

    I think the disagreement lies in how we each define, in our own minds, those terms used by the revelators.  “Idiots”, “degenerates”, “defectives” etc.  To me, these refer to those who are subnormal in their genetic gifts or their mental capacities in some way. It has nothing to do with race or enthicity, it is an individual biological trait that causes them to be inferior in terms of their capacity for spiritual growth or the expression of truth, beauty and love.  None of us are able to identify that in someone else.   We simply do not possess sufficient wisdom to do so.

     

  4. BonitaParticipant
    Apr 5, 2017, 6:40 PM

     

    VanAmadon wrote:  Please try to understand. The terms the revelators used: idiots degenerates defectives

    Rip Van Winkle, will you please start your own thread on this subject.  This thread is about Agondonters . . .  last I checked.  I think it’s a bit idiotic, defective and degenerate to derail a topic the way you constantly do . . .  ah shucks, I’ve done it again.  I’ve made a judgment. Forgive me.  What does the group think about this?  As I’ve said before and believe, I don’t think individuals, especially like myself, can make these judgments since I am clearly swayed by my own personal prejudices and passions.

     

     

     

  5. Bradly,

    I wanted to say that this topic of agondonters is an excellent one and has provided rich discussion so far.  I apologize to you for my part in following the eugenics derail.  I really do want to talk about agondonters some more.  In particular, something in this quote is striking:

    50:7.2 (579.1) On Jerusem the ascenders from these isolated worlds occupy a residential sector by themselves and are known as the agondonters, meaning evolutionary will creatures who can believe without seeing, persevere when isolated, and triumph over insuperable difficulties even when alone. This functional grouping of the agondonters persists throughout the ascension of the local universe and the traversal of the superuniverse; it disappears during the sojourn in Havona but promptly reappears upon the attainment of Paradise and definitely persists in the Corps of the Mortal Finality. Tabamantia is an agondonter of finaliter status, having survived from one of the quarantined spheres involved in the first rebellion ever to take place in the universes of time and space.

     

    I wonder why the designation of agondonter “disappears” during the sojourn in Havona but then “reappears” upon Paradise.  That would seem to indicate that the designation has some type of function or reason for being used everywhere except in Havona.

    Any thoughts as to why that is?

  6. BonitaParticipant
    Apr 5, 2017, 6:45 PM
    Bradly wrote:

    Now get back to Agondonters….or hold your tongue please.

    Oh heck.  I must have been typing when you posted this . . .  I guess it is a group decision then.  Do two make a group? I’ll have to look that up but I think it would be better if we had a third person . . .

    ANYBODY! Please speak up if you want Rip Van Winkle to start his own thread . . .

  7. BonitaParticipant
    Apr 5, 2017, 6:50 PM
    Keryn wrote:  I apologize to you for my part in following the eugenics derail.

    Can I interpret this to mean your vote is for a separate thread?  I’d like to make you poster #3 in the group making that judgment.  What do you say?

  8. A Google search on “agondonters” yields this pdf document, that seems to be sourced to Chris Halvorson (please forgive me if I am referencing a sketchy or unapproved source, here, but I think what I pull from it is harmless enough, in any case).

    Eymology of coined words used in the Urantia Papers

    Agondonters etymology is shown as:

    Agondonter:
    (Latin) agon, a struggle; (Latin) donator, one who gives (one who
    gives a struggle?) When a specific denotation is wanted in connection with a
    systematically used root or phoneme, the requisite word or sufficient part thereof is
    simply stuck into the phoneme: “Divinington,” “Ascendington,” “abandonters,”
    “supernaphim,” “Chronoldeks,” “agondonters.”
    Isn’t that interesting?   One who gives struggle.  Perhaps even, one who voluntarily struggles [to create a relationship with an unseen being, God].
  9. Van AmadonParticipant
    Apr 5, 2017, 7:04 PM

    I thought we were discussing the agony of being an agondonter.

    Please, explain how this issue is not at the heart of it.

     

  10. Really?  I thought we were discussing the joys of being agondonters!

  11. Van AmadonParticipant
    Apr 5, 2017, 7:18 PM

    Yes. The joy of having a book that says things about how to increase joy for our descendants by following him. The one who gave us the direction.

     

  12. BonitaParticipant
    Apr 5, 2017, 8:21 PM

    Being an agondonter is a blessing beyond measure.  It’s a reward for faith-effort that sets us apart from the average. That’s pretty incredible.  How anyone could think it has anything, except four letters, in common with the word agony is beyond me.  Holy Cow!  The ability to believe without seeing is extraordinary.  To be able to persevere in isolation is something very few are capable of.  And the ability to overcome insuperable difficulties makes us all superheroes in a way.  We get our super strength from invisible sources without much perceivable help.  That is something really really special. It’s a stunning degree of faith!   Where’s the agony in that?

    50:7.3 All through the Paradise career, reward follows effort as the result of causes. Such rewards set off the individual from the average, provide a differential of creature experience, and contribute to the versatility of ultimate performances in the collective body of the finaliters.

     

    As to Gene’s question about the distinction of being an agondonter disappearing while in Havona is interesting. I have no idea.  I don’t think they ever explain that, but I’ll keep looking for clues.

  13. Bonita wrote:

    As to Gene’s question about the distinction of being an agondonter disappearing while in Havona is interesting. I have no idea. I don’t think they ever explain that, but I’ll keep looking for clues.

    That was my question.  ;-)  

  14. Van AmadonParticipant
    Apr 5, 2017, 8:39 PM

    Ultimately, there’s nothing special about being an agondonter.

    (177:5.6) “one more day to do the Father’s will “

  15. Let’s look at the entire quote, shall we?  and the context in which it is used – Jesus’ last night.  This has nothing to do with agondonter-ship.

    177:5.6 (1928.3) It was just before midnight when Jesus, knowing this would be the last night he would ever sleep through with his chosen family on earth, said, as he dispersed them for the night: “Go to your sleep, my brethren, and peace be upon you till we rise on the morrow, one more day to do the Father’s will and experience the joy of knowing that we are his sons.”

    Nevertheless, it does talk about the joy of knowing we are his sons.  Which is certainly something ‘special’ in my opinion.  Why so pessimistic, VanAmadon?

  16. BonitaParticipant
    Apr 5, 2017, 9:17 PM
    Keryn wrote:  That was my question.

    OOPS.  Then it is true . . . senile decay has arrived.  Sorry.

  17. Van AmadonParticipant
    Apr 5, 2017, 9:29 PM
    Keryn wrote:

    Why so pessimistic, VanAmadon?

    Nobody who knows me will ever tell you that I’m remotely pessimistic. For me, relating things about who I am and what I think is difficult on this new media we call the internet. But I don’t want to make excuses. I won’t ever give up sharing my joy in living life, and one of its greatest things, the Urantia Book. Forgive me if what I say about it confounds you. I think I’m actually too optimistic really. And I get into trouble when I don’t articulate well. But I’ll get better.

    Enno

  18. GeneParticipant
    Apr 5, 2017, 9:30 PM

    Bonita said:

    “We get our super strength from invisible sources without much perceivable help.”

    Interesting you would put it  this way: not certain how to capture my thoughts about this but all this help certainly gets incorporated into our lives in varying degrees and maybe perception needs more broader definition or maybe perception has little to do with it??

    analogous to responding to the first five Adjutants, most is so automatic: (I watch my dog carefully sometimes and can observe some of these interactions easily and there is zero perception involved at all – as far as my dog is concerned)

    Possibly the higher Adjutants may be a bit more perceivable? After all , aren’t all 7 part of the cosmic mind?? The lowest level of mind??

    do you think that believing without seeing involves a higher level of mind? Aren’t we kind of stuck in the cosmic for now?

     

     

  19. BonitaParticipant
    Apr 5, 2017, 9:53 PM
    Gene wrote:

    Possibly the higher Adjutants may be a bit more perceivable? After all , aren’t all 7 part of the cosmic mind?? The lowest level of mind?? do you think that believing without seeing involves a higher level of mind? Aren’t we kind of stuck in the cosmic for now?

    Hmmm . . .  not sure that’s entirely true.  The cosmic mind goes all the way up to the Seven Master Spirits.  It’s pretty high flying stuff.  What we have is a Nebadon variation of the cosmic mind, but its origin is still way up there.  I don’t think this is the right thread to discuss the cosmic mind, but I can say we are aware of it on some level.  There’s those three cosmic reality recognition reflexes.

    When I said not much perceptible help, I’m talking about human senses failing us.  The mind can learn to feel the presence of God in the soul, but it takes effort and desire.  A lot of people rely on their basic physical senses to navigate through their lives.  On worlds with visible celestials in residence, folks have confirmation with their physical senses.  We have to rely on training ourselves to pick up spiritual senses, and then lock on with faith.  Is that any clearer?

    9:4.3 The mind endowment of the seven superuniverses is derived from the Seven Master Spirits, the primary personalities of the Conjoint Creator. These Master Spirits distribute mind to the grand universe as the cosmic mind, and your local universe is pervaded by the Nebadon variant of the Orvonton type of cosmic mind.

  20. I think I found the answer to my own question:

    Keryn wrote:

    Bradly, I wanted to say that this topic of agondonters is an excellent one and has provided rich discussion so far. I apologize to you for my part in following the eugenics derail. I really do want to talk about agondonters some more. In particular, something in this quote is striking:

    50:7.2 (579.1) On Jerusem the ascenders from these isolated worlds occupy a residential sector by themselves and are known as the agondonters, meaning evolutionary will creatures who can believe without seeing, persevere when isolated, and triumph over insuperable difficulties even when alone. This functional grouping of the agondonters persists throughout the ascension of the local universe and the traversal of the superuniverse; it disappears during the sojourn in Havona but promptly reappears upon the attainment of Paradise and definitely persists in the Corps of the Mortal Finality. Tabamantia is an agondonter of finaliter status, having survived from one of the quarantined spheres involved in the first rebellion ever to take place in the universes of time and space.

    I wonder why the designation of agondonter “disappears” during the sojourn in Havona but then “reappears” upon Paradise. That would seem to indicate that the designation has some type of function or reason for being used everywhere except in Havona. Any thoughts as to why that is?

     

    Consider the following quotes in light of the phase from the quote above “this functional grouping of the agondonters … disappears during the sojourn in Havona”:

    30:4:27  Sometimes all training worlds of mortal residence are called universe “mansions,” and it was to such spheres that Jesus alluded when he said: “In my Father’s house are many mansions.” From here on, within a given group of spheres like the mansion worlds, ascenders will progress individually from one sphere to another and from one phase of life to another, but they will always advance from one stage of universe study to another in class formation.

    30:4.27 (343.2) The journey from the superuniverse headquarters to the Havona receiving spheres is always made alone. From now on no more class or group instruction will be administered. You are through with the technical and administrative training of the evolutionary worlds of time and space. Now begins your personal education, your individual spiritual training. From first to last, throughout all Havona, the instruction is personal and threefold in nature: intellectual, spiritual, and experiential.

    So perhaps the group designation of agondonter disappears on Havona because, while there, we are alone, without class or group affiliation.

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