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Agondonters

420 posts · 13 participants · started Mar 23, 2017, 2:39 PM

BradlyParticipant
May 4, 2017, 3:14 PM
Thanks Bonita. And to Gene: thank you for such pertinent questions. It is the ‘question’ which begins the ‘quest’ to know and to understand. Learning and teaching both depend upon, first, the questions which come to mind. This quest is endless and is an inherent element in the universe adventure – the Divine University of Learning in Time and Space!

And to the Mod’s point: Yes…the topic of Agondonter does naturally lead to so many related conversations and issues to consider. For it is the agondonter who most completely must LEARN how to utilize all these variables of ministry in the growth of soul, the progression through the Circles to fusion, the coordination of facts and truth, and the personalized and experiential ascendant adventure!

Bonita – so….the TA is not mind but the mind is the arena of choice AND ALSO the arena of TA/pilot/voice teaching and leading, so the TA is the source of the yearning, thirsting, and hungering for understanding fact and living the truth?

I think I could use more understanding of ‘mind’…..how is it individual and how is it universal too?

And to select another tangent for consideration….how do you think the Supreme, whose growth in power and influence in time and space is enlarged or energized by all the free will choices of spiritual value/meaning, is engaged in personal or one on one ministry (I suppose in a way with the Supreme it’s more like ‘all others to one’ plus the power/wisdom of Deity). I know the Supreme has effect on the totality of time and space….wondering how the Supreme interacts or impacts the individual ascending mortal.

Thanks again. This topic has become so much greater than its meager beginning by my initial post! = )

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Van AmadonParticipant
May 4, 2017, 3:50 PM
(140:8.28) The right to enter the kingdom is conditioned by faith, personal belief. The cost of remaining in the progressive ascent of the kingdom is the pearl of great price, in order to possess which a man sells all that he has.

Discussing the Agondonters is interesting. Although, whether or not you’re an agondonter, the same cost will need to be paid to continue to ascend in the Father’s kingdom, and also, whether or not there is an understanding of mind, and how it works.

Understanding mind is secondary to the main thing.

(140:1.4) “But for you, my children, and for all others who would follow you into this kingdom, there is set a severe test. Faith alone will pass you through its portals, but you must bring forth the fruits of my Father’s spirit if you would continue to ascend in the progressive life of the divine fellowship. Verily, verily, I say to you, not every one who says, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but rather he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

“Not my will but yours be done”
BradlyParticipant
May 4, 2017, 4:10 PM
None of us are agondonters….just to be clear. We are ‘potential’ finaliters depending upon our response to love and our willingness to share that love. This is the will of God…to love one another. The ‘doing of the Father’s will’ is the personal choice to pursue truth, beauty, and goodness.

The “progressive ascent” is merely the personal response to Spirit – the reality response – and the choosing to pursue the spirit nature and to transfer the seat of identity by fellowship with God within. The “cost” is only a trifle….to learn to ‘adjust’ to the spiritual nature inherent within us each and all. This transfer in the material world does take attention and effort….but the yoke of the Master is light and becomes easier and easier to carry as it lightens the burden and costs of the material mind. Would I spend a dime to unload a dollar of burden? The cost of spiritualization gets easier and easier to bear while the cost of materialism only gets greater and greater. Or so I find to be true.

What do others think of this “cost”?

You claim that understanding is secondary….which does not make it irrelevant or unimportant….even if the claim is true.

143:2.4 “By the old way you seek to suppress, obey, and conform to the rules of living; by the new way you are first transformed by the Spirit of Truth and thereby strengthened in your inner soul by the constant spiritual renewing of your mind, and so are you endowed with the power of the certain and joyous performance of the gracious, acceptable, and perfect will of God.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Van AmadonParticipant
May 4, 2017, 4:22 PM

Bradly wrote:

The “cost” is only a trifle

The cost is a great price, which, a man sells all that he has, to posses.

Which includes all the “understanding” he has too.
BonitaParticipant
May 4, 2017, 4:26 PM

Bradly wrote: . . . the topic of Agondonter does naturally lead to so many related conversations and issues to consider.

You got that right! Isn’t agondonter status all about faith? . . . and doesn’t faith touch just about everything? At least everything worthwhile, that’s for sure! Faith is the cost and paying the price means bringing potentials to actuality. It’s about leaving that trail of actualized potential in the universe which is so pregnant with spiritual value that it contributes to the growth of the Supreme.

Bradly wrote:how do you think the Supreme, whose growth in power and influence in time and space is enlarged . . .

The Supreme is like the soul. It grows by the accumulation of actualized spiritual reality, by people making choices for truth, beauty and goodness, by people striving for divinity and yearning for perfection. The act is ours but the consequences are God’s. What that means is that the individual act results in individual soul growth, but the consequence of this occurring in all individuals is growth of the Supreme (God).

116:7.6   Man’s urge for Paradise perfection, his striving for God-attainment, creates a genuine divinity tension in the living cosmos which can only be resolved by the evolution of an immortal soul; this is what happens in the experience of a single mortal creature. But when all creatures and all Creators in the grand universe likewise strive for God-attainment and divine perfection, there is built up a profound cosmic tension which can only find resolution in the sublime synthesis of almighty power with the spirit person of the evolving God of all creatures, the Supreme Being.

117:3.6   Mortal man, being a creature, is not exactly like the Supreme Being, who is deity, but man’s evolution does in some ways resemble the growth of the Supreme. Man consciously grows from the material toward the spiritual by the strength, power, and persistency of his own decisions; he also grows as his Thought Adjuster develops new techniques for reaching down from the spiritual to the morontial soul levels; and once the soul comes into being, it begins to grow in and of itself.

Bradly wrote:  Bonita – so….the TA is not mind but the mind is the arena of choice AND ALSO the arena of TA/pilot/voice teaching and leading, so the TA is the source of the yearning, thirsting, and hungering for understanding fact and living the truth?

No, the Adjuster is not mind. The Adjuster is pre-mind, pre-personality and spirit . . . an actual piece of God. The Adjuster lives in the mind arena, but in the superconscious level (highest). The teaching and guiding are assisted by the Holy Spirit and Spirit of Truth in the soul. The actual still, small voice is contacted only at the superconscious level, which requires exploration of the soul all the way to the borderland, as the quote tells us. The business of teaching is individualized by the Master, since he and the Father are one.

Yes, the mind is the arena of choice because that is where ideas are formulated and ideals discovered. Personality gives us the ability to be self-conscious and morally aware of other selves as well as the power of choice. The mind has several overlapping levels and different thoughts happen at different levels. Those different thoughts can also overlap, sometimes causing confusion. Mind is unity. Spirit is love. Personality unifies through choice. Confusion and chaos is either a result of resisting mind ministry and spirit guidance, laziness or procrastination of the personality’s power of choice, or the sudden appearance of new thoughts that don’t fit into the established mental scaffolding (there may be others, of course). I’m not sure if you really want me to develop my ideas on mind ministry or not. This is one of my most favorite subjects, so I have a lot of material. If you wanna go there, I’m game.

Bradly wrote:  I think I could use more understanding of ‘mind’…..how is it individual and how is it universal too?

Mind is universal because it’s cosmic. Mind is individual because the Creative Spirit gives us a little specialized and individualized nebula of the cosmic mind to work with.

111:1.2 Intellectual selves have their origin in the cosmic mind much as nebulae take origin in the cosmic energies of universe space.

9:5.4 The Conjoint Creator is the ancestor of the cosmic mind, and the mind of man is an individualized circuit, an impersonal portion, of that cosmic mind as it is bestowed in a local universe by a Creative Daughter of the Third Source and Center.
BradlyParticipant
May 4, 2017, 4:43 PM
Yes….let’s “go there”!!

I am having a wonderful time with this topic….it has served to unite, unify, harmonize, and integrate so many different ministries and circuits and sources and influences on the tadpole mind. I am fascinated to learn how normal and natural the spiritualization process truly is for those who will simply recognize and respond to all these ministries of Divinity to each of us.

Let us not become distracted or entangled by those who seek that very thing. The kingdom “is like unto” something so worthy, beautiful, wonderful, desirable, and valuable that we will eagerly give up materialisms and attachments and self importance to have for our own. That’s all. Nothing of value must be surrendered to gain everything of and with value….there is no sacrifice except in the minds of those who “…seek to suppress, obey, and conform to the rules of living…” as they perceive them to be. Those who believe in sacrifice for salvation have missed the point of the last two epochal revelations…and this topic and its many quotes so far.

I might get one more chance, or not, to post before leaving to visit family. Everyone enjoy. May the Mods be alert and attentive and thanks for your support of this classroom of sharing!!

= )

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
May 4, 2017, 4:47 PM
VanAmadon wrote: The cost is a great price, which, a man sells all that he has, to posses. Which includes all the “understanding” he has too.

WHAT’S REALLY IN TUB:

1:6.6 The more completely man understands himself and appreciates the personality values of his fellows, the more he will crave to know the Original Personality, and the more earnestly such a God-knowing human will strive to become like the Original Personality.

2:4.2 The better man understands his neighbor, the easier it will be to forgive him, even to love him.

2:6.5 But love gives and craves affection, seeks understanding fellowship such as exists between parent and child.

Misunderstanding creates confusion and chaos, which is why it was endorsed by the rebels.

4:3.3 Much, very much, of the difficulty which Urantia mortals have in understanding God is due to the far-reaching consequences of the Lucifer rebellion and the Caligastia betrayal.
BonitaParticipant
May 4, 2017, 4:49 PM

Bradly wrote:

we will eagerly give up materialisms

No wait! We don’t have to give up materialism, we have to learn how to allow spirit to dominate it. We have to live a material life! No floating Buddhas . . .

I’ll be back in a few hours. Have appointments. Enjoying this too!
Van AmadonParticipant
May 4, 2017, 5:05 PM

Bradly wrote:

Nothing of value must be surrendered

Bradly, I see that you support the idea that, if you say it enough times, that black is white, the people who read your words will give up, and give in to it.

Black will never be white.

Hear what is revealed about the surrender of “value”.

163:2.5 Then said the young man: “But, Master, I am not content to be your disciple; I would be one of your new messengers.” When Jesus heard this, he looked down upon him with a great love and said: “I will have you to be one of my messengers if you are willing to pay the price, if you will supply the one thing which you lack.” Matadormus replied: “Master, I will do anything if I may be allowed to follow you.” Jesus, kissing the kneeling young man on the forehead, said: “If you would be my messenger, go and sell all that you have and, when you have bestowed the proceeds upon the poor or upon your brethren, come and follow me, and you shall have treasure in the kingdom of heaven.”

163:2.6 When Matadormus heard this, his countenance fell. He arose and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. This wealthy young Pharisee had been raised to believe that wealth was the token of God’s favor. Jesus knew that he was not free from the love of himself and his riches. The Master wanted to deliver him from the love of wealth, not necessarily from the wealth. While the disciples of Jesus did not part with all their worldly goods, the apostles and the seventy did. Matadormus desired to be one of the seventy new messengers, and that was the reason for Jesus’ requiring him to part with all of his temporal possessions.

163:2.7.

Almost every human being has some one thing which is held on to as a pet evil, and which the entrance into the kingdom of heaven requires as a part of the price of admission. If Matadormus had parted with his wealth, it probably would have been put right back into his hands for administration as treasurer of the seventy. For later on, after the establishment of the church at Jerusalem, he did obey the Master’s injunction, although it was then too late to enjoy membership in the seventy, and he became the treasurer of the Jerusalem church, of which James the Lord’s brother in the flesh was the head.

163:2.8.Thus always it was and forever will be: Men must arrive at their own decisions. There is a certain range of the freedom of choice which mortals may exercise. The forces of the spiritual world will not coerce man; they allow him to go the way of his own choosing.

So did Jesus ask Matadormus for a trifle?

How about this:

“Heed well what you have just seen. This poor widow cast in more than all the others, for all these others, from their superfluity, cast in some trifle as a gift, but this poor woman, even though she is in want, gave all that she had, even her living.”
BradlyParticipant
May 4, 2017, 5:11 PM
Accuracy and clarity are so important…I’m always throwing in misstatements!! Yes….our material life and attachments need only to be “dominated” by the spirit nature.

The world is a wonderful place for those whose personal reality encompasses ALL reality and whose motives, intentions, priorities, and choices are led by the spirit nature.

We are not to disengage or become disinterested in the wonders of the material universe created by Michael and ministered to by so many unseen friends in this friendly universe. The perspective gained by spiritualization changes the very nature of that which is viewed by perspective. The dark and doubting and sacrificial altars erected by some are might burdens to bear and illustrate minds still struggling with true “understanding”.

196:2.9 (2093.3) Jesus led men to feel at home in the world; he delivered them from the slavery of taboo and taught them that the world was not fundamentally evil. He did not long to escape from his earthly life; he mastered a technique of acceptably doing the Father’s will while in the flesh. He attained an idealistic religious life in the very midst of a realistic world. Jesus did not share Paul’s pessimistic view of humankind. The Master looked upon men as the sons of God and foresaw a magnificent and eternal future for those who chose survival. He was not a moral skeptic; he viewed man positively, not negatively. He saw most men as weak rather than wicked, more distraught than depraved. But no matter what their status, they were all God’s children and his brethren.

196:3.3 (2094.2) The progressive comprehension of reality is the equivalent of approaching God. The finding of God, the consciousness of identity with reality, is the equivalent of the experiencing of self-completion — self-entirety, self-totality. The experiencing of total reality is the full realization of God, the finality of the God-knowing experience.

196:3.4 (2094.3) The full summation of human life is the knowledge that man is educated by fact, ennobled by wisdom, and saved — justified — by religious faith.

196:3.8 (2094.7) 2. Interpretation of the universe — wisdom. Only the spirit-indwelt mind can comprehend that the universe is friendly to the individual.

Glory be to God!! = )

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Van AmadonParticipant
May 4, 2017, 5:20 PM

Bonita wrote:

We don’t have to give up materialism,

Yes we do.

(102:6.10) Materialism cheapens human life; the gospel of Jesus tremendously enhances and supernally exalts every mortal.

Black isn’t white.
AnonymousInactive
May 4, 2017, 5:31 PM

Bonita wrote:

Gene wrote: As we identify with deity and begin to actualize the related realities, do you think that these actualized realities have gravity?

No. As I understand it, actualized realities respond to the gravity already present, coming from the original source on Paradise. Simply put, if something is real, it locks on to the gravity source it relates to. For example, the greater the spiritual content of a given reality, the greater the attraction to the spirit gravity circuit, which pulls that bit of reality toward the Eternal Son. This quote might shed some light . . . not sure:

14:2.7 The universal spiritual gravity of the Eternal Son is amazingly active throughout the central universe. All spirit values and spiritual personalities are unceasingly drawn inward towards the abode of the Gods. This Godward urge is intense and inescapable. The ambition to attain God is stronger in the central universe, not because spirit gravity is stronger than in the outlying universes, but because those beings who have attained Havona are more fully spiritualized and hence more responsive to the ever-present action of the universal spirit-gravity pull of the Eternal Son.

In a manor of speaking Bonita has presented something which seems to apply when she posted the UB narration above. As I see it when we isolate gravity into two distinct forms as material, and spiritual gravity, we might look at one being a carrier wave for the other. By this I must qualify this a little more, in that material gravity resides primarily from the first source and center, where it is more so like sub-space in that ultimatons which are the unformed components of electrons which identify the specific arrangement of mater once fixed to atoms as they pass from the first to the second source. As these material atoms accumulate to assimilate various forms of aggregates of mater they acquire mass whereby create material gravity and attraction and the various physical bodies accumulate various strengths in gravity to each, they are suspended within the third source of neutrality like a mono-pole is to positive and negative charges but, through motion or the interaction of centripetal and centrifugal forces creates an anti-gravity affect used to stabilize the overall effect of gravity (the overwhelming attraction of sub-space as the original source – or pre-material creative force). Thereby, centripetal force acts as materiel-gravity and centrifugal force acts as spiritual-gravity counter acting but depending on the intensity or interaction of the two forces creates a third force that can ride the gravity waves in either direction as may be desired or needed at any one point in time. Therefore spiritual-gravity, uses material-gravity to transfer various aspects of reality in one direction or another depending on the intensity of the threshold achieved by an individual force.
Van AmadonParticipant
May 4, 2017, 5:50 PM
Ya know, this is a difficult planet to live on. It’s been said that no matter what, at the end of life, if you have a flicker of faith, you will survive.

It will take more time for some than others to progress spiritually, and given that this world is so hard, you would think God will consider many things we know not, when it comes to us Urantians.

Nonetheless, I wonder why there is so much denial of the truth, and what seems to be a program to confuse the “understanding”.

I’m not the only one who sees this, believe me.
BradlyParticipant
May 4, 2017, 6:52 PM
See’s what? Exactly please. Not knowing truth is no evil. Choosing falsehoods over truth known certainly is. One purpose of the UB: deliver facts of reality to bring truth through its realization. Humanity has many great ideals and a great many who work on their behalf. Understanding will deliver progress to the each and the all. Is there a “program” or merely a legacy based on fear and suffering I wonder?

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
May 4, 2017, 8:11 PM

VanAmadon wrote:

Bradly wrote:

Nothing of value must be surrendered

Bradly, I see that you support the idea that, if you say it enough times, that black is white, the people who read your words will give up, and give in to it. Black will never be white. Hear what is revealed about the surrender of “value”.

163:2.5 Then said the young man: “But, Master, I am not content to be your disciple; I would be one of your new messengers.” When Jesus heard this, he looked down upon him with a great love and said: “I will have you to be one of my messengers if you are willing to pay the price, if you will supply the one thing which you lack.” Matadormus replied: “Master, I will do anything if I may be allowed to follow you.” Jesus, kissing the kneeling young man on the forehead, said: “If you would be my messenger, go and sell all that you have and, when you have bestowed the proceeds upon the poor or upon your brethren, come and follow me, and you shall have treasure in the kingdom of heaven.”

163:2.6 When Matadormus heard this, his countenance fell. He arose and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. This wealthy young Pharisee had been raised to believe that wealth was the token of God’s favor. Jesus knew that he was not free from the love of himself and his riches. The Master wanted to deliver him from the love of wealth, not necessarily from the wealth. While the disciples of Jesus did not part with all their worldly goods, the apostles and the seventy did. Matadormus desired to be one of the seventy new messengers, and that was the reason for Jesus’ requiring him to part with all of his temporal possessions.

163:2.7. Almost every human being has some one thing which is held on to as a pet evil, and which the entrance into the kingdom of heaven requires as a part of the price of admission. If Matadormus had parted with his wealth, it probably would have been put right back into his hands for administration as treasurer of the seventy. For later on, after the establishment of the church at Jerusalem, he did obey the Master’s injunction, although it was then too late to enjoy membership in the seventy, and he became the treasurer of the Jerusalem church, of which James the Lord’s brother in the flesh was the head.

163:2.8.Thus always it was and forever will be: Men must arrive at their own decisions. There is a certain range of the freedom of choice which mortals may exercise. The forces of the spiritual world will not coerce man; they allow him to go the way of his own choosing.

So did Jesus ask Matadormus for a trifle?

How about this:

“Heed well what you have just seen. This poor widow cast in more than all the others, for all these others, from their superfluity, cast in some trifle as a gift, but this poor woman, even though she is in want, gave all that she had, even her living.”

WOW! When did a pet evil become value???? This makes no sense at all. Maybe reflection on the following quote is in order???

^100:3.3 In the contemplation of values you must distinguish between that which is value and that which has value. You must recognize the relation between pleasurable activities and their meaningful integration and enhanced realization on ever progressively higher and higher levels of human experience.
BonitaParticipant
May 4, 2017, 8:54 PM

VanAmadon wrote: Bonita said “We don’t have to give up materialism” and goes on to say we are material beings that need material things. So you can’t say she meant “We don’t have to give up material things”. Why is she doing that?

Perhaps I did not explain myself very well, although Bradly easily understood what I meant and you should too Enno if you read the entire post. You completely ignored the part about allowing spirit to dominate the material level. I wrote:

No wait! We don’t have to give up materialism, we have to learn how to allow spirit to dominate it. We have to live a material life! No floating Buddhas . . .

Bradly said we have to eagerly give up materialisms. Note the “s” on the end. He wasn’t talking about the philosophy of materialism, which is obviously a falsehood. I should have included the “s” in my post, but was in a hurry. But even so, you should have been able to understand the core of my message. The fact that you so quickly accuse me of a falsification and misrepresentation of the truth is quite troubling. How about asking for a clarification if you think something is wrong?

Not all of our materialistic tendencies are evil, and not all need to be given up. That’s an over generalization of reality. We all need to eat, we all need to sleep, we all need clothing, fuel sources and a host of other things to survive on this planet, all of which are material. Jesus did not give up any of these material things but he dealt with them in a spiritual manner.
nelsongParticipant
May 4, 2017, 8:57 PM

VanAmadon wrote:

Bradly, I’m getting tired of this. I’m talking about everybody seeing how the truth is being denied. You said that there isn’t a cost to follow Jesus. But there is. Saying that there isn’t a cost, is a denial of the truth. Bonita said “We don’t have to give up materialism” and goes on to say we are material beings that need material things. So you can’t say she meant “We don’t have to give up material things”. Why is she doing that? Material-ism most definitely needs to be “given up”. Please explain why you and Bonita keep insisting these kind of things. Keep misrepresenting the truth? It feels like it’s a program.

So I take it that you have a handle on truth but Bonita and Brad do not?

Who else sees this implied misrepresentation? I would like to know. Stand up and be counted, please.
BonitaParticipant
May 4, 2017, 9:25 PM

nelsong wrote: So I take it that you have a handle on truth but Bonita and Brad do not?

Oh geez! I’m not claiming to have a handle on truth. I don’t claim anything of the sort. I’m just here to study, discuss, and share my ideas. Most of the people I have encountered on these forums disagree with me about everything. I’m used to that and I really don’t care. But I don’t think it has anything to do with the revelation of truth. Isn’t that what folks on channeling forums try to do? Convince you that they have new truth that no one else has? No, that is definitely not my bailiwick. If you don’t like what I say, that’s fine with me. I just don’t think it’s helpful to constantly derail conversations and fling ad hominem just because you don’t like what’s being said. That’s just weird and more than a bit self-centered. That’s how I see it.
BonitaParticipant
May 4, 2017, 10:59 PM

Bradly wrote: To the Mods: I’m getting a little tired too to be frank. A historical review of Enno’s posts here should provide sufficient evidence of his value or lack thereof in his attendance on this Forum. He constantly disrupts discussion and discovery, personalizes taunts and accusations, and adds little to nothing to true dialogue since he will not answer any questions directly or respond when found to be in contradiction to the text itself. It’s dang discombobulating and disruptive IMO. You’re call of course. How many warnings does such a disruptor get I wonder?

Thanks so much for speaking up Bradly. I’m of the same mind. We were having such a lovely conversation. I was sincerely enjoying it and looking forward to more. Now I can’t remember what the heck we were talking about at all. I do wish the constant disruptions would cease. Many, many times I’ve thought of walking away from this forum because I find it to be so disheartening to be beaten up every time you open your mouth. It’s so sad.

Have a great time on your road trip, but frankly, there’s little reason for me to be here either. Perhaps the study group starting Memorial weekend might be a worthwhile venture . . . we’ll see.
BradlyParticipant
May 4, 2017, 10:41 PM
Thanks Nelson!!

Like Bonita, this tadpole claims no great wisdom or grip on truth…I too am here to learn knowledge by sharing the contents of fact and universe reality as delivered by the gift of Epochal Revelation (a book Enno claims to be dangerous). Enno also attacks me at TruthBook with great regularity and gusto – in between apologizing for his shock shtick and personal difficulties. I am here to learn. I utilize the text as the center piece of that learning.

Now I am accused of being a truth denier and a manipulator in league with another/others to deceive.

I asked Enno to specify the “cost” of spiritizing our dual nature. He offers nothing but unrelated text about a rich boy wanting to be an Apostle and keep his riches as “proof” of how much it costs to buy God’s love and salvation, which “pet evil” has nothing at all to do with his claim….this is about attachments and divided love and loyalty. Enno’s grasp of the text is slippery at best and is delivered unceasingly with darkness, doubts, fears, and anxieties…hardly evidence of the sublime peace that a believer might display from hope, faith, and confidence in God and the friendly universe the Revelation proclaims to us all.

To the Mods: I’m getting a little tired too to be frank. A historical review of Enno’s posts here should provide sufficient evidence of his value or lack thereof in his attendance on this Forum. He constantly disrupts discussion and discovery, personalizes taunts and accusations, and adds little to nothing to true dialogue since he will not answer any questions directly or respond when found to be in contradiction to the text itself. It’s dang discombobulating and disruptive IMO. You’re call of course. How many warnings does such a disruptor get I wonder?

I’m taking a few days on the road now. Thanks to those who participate and read along and those who provide this study group and support it daily…well done. Perhaps I’ll regain some patience by then? Yes indeed.

Carry on everyone and enjoy. There will always be obstacles and challenges for our learning and our understanding. May God’s light within guide us beyond all uncertainties and all doubts!! = )

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

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