inhibitors are neutralized by curiosity and the yearning to understand the problem at hand.
That’s interesting what you’ve said there Mara. I wonder what the correlation is regarding how the kingdom is “at hand” and how that too, might be a problem.
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Agondonters
420 posts · 13 participants · started Mar 23, 2017, 2:39 PM
My goal is to change trolling behavior, which involves the one trolling recognizing the behavior as attention seeking. That is something I’m not sure happens with shining light alone. I think there has to be a willingness to see. You?
We have instruction about the Master on troublesome people. For our mutual edification:
149:2.13 The Master was admired by all who met him except by those who entertained deep-seated religious prejudices or those who thought they discerned political dangers in his teachings. Men were astonished at the originality and authoritativeness of his teaching. They marveled at his patience in dealing with backward and troublesome inquirers. He inspired hope and confidence in the hearts of all who came under his ministry. Only those who had not met him feared him, and he was hated only by those who regarded him as the champion of that truth which was destined to overthrow the evil and error which they had determined to hold in their hearts at all cost.“. . . he was hated only by those who regarded him as the champion of that truth which was destined to overthrow the evil and error which they had determined to hold in their hearts at all cost.”“. . . he was hated only by those who regarded him as the champion of that truth which was destined to overthrow the evil and error which they had determined to hold in their hearts at all cost.”
BINGO! So those folks aren’t willing to buy that pearl of great price . . . they prefer evil and error. Sad when you think evil and error is more precious than truth. That’s definitely insane.
I see what you all are saying. Yes, when you tell yourself you’re not confused, it means you don’t understand that you are. Bradly you mentioned the “lack of understanding” when you brought up the issue of confusion. I wonder, are they the same thing? If you can be, or are, confused about what you “understand,” you can’t be confused if you don’t understand something in the first place, right? This is what I was eluding to when I said, if you are busy selling all that is possessed, “selling” what you understand needs to be included. Am I confused? Enno
Well Enno….your grip on your prejudice is amazing. No one must “sell” anything. You still miss the point of parable, simile, allegory, etc. The kingdom is not the pearl dude. Nothing must be sold to enter the Kingdom or progress in the Spirit. The parables (about the Kingdom) are lessons on the VALUE of being in the kingdom….and how being in the Kingdom has more value than any other experience or choice. Something you don’t seem to understand “in the first place”. Just sayin’……………repeating a falsehood over and over will never make the false to become true.
As to the “kingdom at hand”…..this teaching became apparent to me even as a youth. The kingdom is not hither or thither or some future time or event….the kingdom is here and it is now….at hand….immediately to hand….it resides within (kingdom #1) and it includes all believers (kingdom #2), and all of creation (kingdom #3). The point is to stop waiting for and hoping for that which exists here and now….or so I think. And it’s not a “problem”. It’s a promise and guarantee of reality itself. = )
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
No one must “sell” anything.
See, I’m learning from you. Absolutely, I’m not confused about that.
God has granted me free will and I don’t have to do anything.
If you could only fathom the motives of your associates, how much better you would understand them.
Bradly,
One more thing. If the value of being in the kingdom is great, and the choice to be in the kingdom (with the pearl parable in mind) doesn’t cost anything, then why did Jesus say that something had to be done, once the choice was made that a pearl of great value was discovered?
I interpret “having discovered” to mean “having chosen.”
You said:
The parables (about the Kingdom) are lessons on the VALUE of being in the kingdom….and how being in the Kingdom has more value than any other experience or choice.
Right. But doesn’t the parable suggest that without doing something (sell and buy) you won’t be able to possess (or be in) the pearl, which the kingdom is like?
Help me out. I’m trying to understand you.
Enno
No one must “sell” anything. You still miss the point of parable . . .
I do not have the wherewithal to understand how someone can so irascibly mistake the physical world for that which is spiritual, especially in light of what Jesus said regarding parables:
171:8.8 . . .but Jesus would only say, in answer to their many questions: “Ponder well these words in your hearts while each of you finds out their true meaning.”
He said ponder these words in your heart.Bradly, One more thing. If the value of being in the kingdom is great, and the choice to be in the kingdom (with the pearl parable in mind) doesn’t cost anything, then why did Jesus say that something had to be done, once the choice was made that a pearl of great value was discovered? I interpret “having discovered” to mean “having chosen.” You said:
The parables (about the Kingdom) are lessons on the VALUE of being in the kingdom….and how being in the Kingdom has more value than any other experience or choice.
Right. But doesn’t the parable suggest that without doing something (sell and buy) you won’t be able to possess (or be in) the pearl, which the kingdom is like? Help me out. I’m trying to understand you. Enno
Doing something? Well sure. We all do things and choose things all the time. But entrance to the kingdom is “purchased” so to speak by our faith in the kingdom…meaning our choices are guided by the Spirit nature. We take on new motives, intentions, priorities, and make decisions based on our love of God and demonstrate that with self forgetting service for others spreading the Divine love we feel to those around us. This is the price and the cost for Circle Progress. Fusion requires far more than does survival of the mortal life. Much of the Master’s teaching, especially to the Apostles, was about Circle Progress toward the goal of fusion itself. How to become God focused, God inspired, God led….or God Centered.
Nothing to sell….nothing to buy. It’s described as transferring the seat of our identity from me to we which begins with from me to God. What’s more important to us – our material being and the toys, distractions, pleasures, escapes, and entertainments of our physical self OR the adventure of growing in the Spirit and becoming more and more REAL and living in reality? All we must give up is that which is not real and all we must embrace is reality itself. It is true this is easier said than done….until it becomes our very nature. The material mind and selfhood will enjoy the fruits of the Spirit…it’s no sacrifice….it brings joy, comfort, confidence, peace, and the desire to share these fruits with our brothers and sisters.
So will you “sell” what’s unreal to “buy” what is real? Unreality has no value. Reality IS value. We must choose unreality or reality. It’s a simple choice with profound results.
What should be done, primarily, is to pray and to find God within and to look for God in the world around us and in others. Takes time and practice and some frustration, disappointment, failure, and “Adjust”-ment.
The section of the Papers I read first and most often since:
Paper 100 – Religion in Human Experience
Paper 101 – The Real Nature of Religion
Paper 102 – The Foundations of Religious Faith
Paper 103 – The Reality of Religious Experience
Paper 104 – Growth of the Trinity Concept
Paper 105 – Deity and Reality
Paper 106 – Universe Levels of Reality
Paper 107 – Origin and Nature of Thought Adjusters
Paper 108 – Mission and Ministry of Thought Adjusters
Paper 109 – Relation of Adjusters to Universe Creatures
Paper 110 – Relation of Adjusters to Individual Mortals
Paper 111 – The Adjuster and The Soul
Paper 112 – Personality Survival
Paper 113 – Seraphic Guardians of DestinySo joining the kingdom and being born again is often but one decision. But it is but the first of an endless many more decisions. We learn by both the quantity and the quality of the choices we make….all the way to Paradise. Our progress is measured and known to allow the incremental acquisition of experiential wisdom. It does not matter how long this might take. It is only the direction of progress that defines the reality of progress in the soul of the believer.
I can hear you casting about for “what” exactly must be done. A common theme of yours. Who’s doing what? Who’s not doing what? This is not your or my business brother. You are your business…and no one else. Should keep you plenty busy…I know my relationship with God and my growth in the Spirit keeps me very busy indeed. Growth may be unconscious but that which brings growth is based upon what we choose consciously. The price for the pearl is one easily afforded. It is purchased by choice. And you will never “possess” it but it can possess you…if you choose the reality of the universe and the eternal adventure.
Some primitives believe it is purchased by ceremony, rite, sacrifice, suffering, or some other form of price/cost. This is ridiculous. God loves us. Like a father. He only wants us to learn to love like he loves….and that is not for sale….at ANY price. Freely we receive. Freely we are to give. Pretty simple really…to understand anyway. Doing it? Well….there’s an adventure!
Or so I understand it.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
I thought the only thing you need to enter the kingdom is faith. Faith is a gift, so entrance is free. It’s a right, just as the quote says. The cost to stay in the kingdom is effort . . . effort in the form of willingness to seek and strive for perfection . . . the willingness to evolve.
I don’t think the parable is all that hard to understand. Bradly is right, nothing is bought or sold. It’s about changing your attitude and priorities. It’s about figuring out what you want most and then going after it with all you have. It’s about the evolution of dominance by choice. Evolution is very costly, just read TUB to see how much it has cost us in blood, sweat and treasure over the millennia.
Some how my thread has metastasized to this thread. Oh well . . . .
Bradly, I appreciate that. What’s interesting, and it started for me this past weekend, is that I’ve discovered that my self-understanding cannot exceed the understanding I possess of you. And everyone else too.
Thank you.
Btw Bonita, actually it started earlier than last weekend. It was when you told me in what I perceived to be an understanding way, you told me to “Stay on topic Enno.”
Regards
Thanks Bonita!
And yes, let us stay focused here on the ascendant experience from tadpole to finaliter and how/why some finaliters are deemed to be Agondonter.
Joining the kingdom of believers is one step in that transformation.
But what of all the forms of the kingdom employed in the Papers?
Let’s discuss that on the Kingdom topic and not here, except for those instances where the two may intersect time to time.
The Kingdom of Heaven is a most important topic….and especially so as Jesus introduced us to that brand new concept 2000 years ago. The Apostles hardly grasped the concept while with the Master…the kingdom at hand…..rather than the kingdom to come expected by the Israelites….and still waited on by our Christian friends today.
And while Enno’s detours here have heretofore been pretty circular so far, perhaps we can pick up another tangent of interest specifically related to Agondonters. Now that we’ve determined and verified the cost of entering the kingdom is but faith IN that kingdom.
Perhaps the fruit that appears on the branch which is attached to the vine of Divine Reality? For something with no cost, the benefits received for faith are endlessly wonderful….and immediate!!
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
I think fruit production does cost us something if effort can be considered a cost. You have to work at staying connected to the vine in order for fruit to appear. We don’t produce the fruit, God does. All we have to do is maintain the connection of our one individual branch of the tree to the original life force coming from God. I think life creates many problems for our little branch that can put it in peril of being blown off, rotted off, chewed off or knocked off. Lots of things are out there that can separate the branch from the tree, so I think it takes concerted effort to maintain the connection at all times. Jesus did that and he blossomed. He’s our model for holding onto the tree, the living vine, and I don’t think there’s a better one out there to learn from. But here’s where understanding doesn’t matter that much. All you have to understand is, if you let go, you’re toast. Pretty basic stuff, elemental ABC’s. Even a caveman can do it.
But Jesus told us that we’re supposed to do more than just hold on. We’re supposed to produce more and more fruit. Just holding on is basic and fundamental, growing more fruit involves additional effort. What do you suppose that effort is? Is there more understanding involved? I think so. It’s like moving from pre-school to kindergarten to first grade. There has to be progress from the basic ABC’s to actually writing words that make sense.
But the understanding I’m talking about is not all intellectual, it’s more than the three R’s, it’s understanding the nature of God himself, the person, by keeping the communication going 24/7 and staying involved in a relationship (give and take). That takes work, concentration, commitment and consistency. I for one am totally committed, but I lack consistency . . . I think most people do. We have to be reminded to keep the lines open . . . and that is the process of circle progression . . . keeping the lines open and improving the swiftness of processing meanings and values with increasing accuracy of reality recognition and acceptance. It’s a journey and the goal is more and more and more fruit bearing.
180:2.1 Then Jesus stood up again and continued teaching his apostles: “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. I am the vine, and you are the branches. And the Father requires of me only that you shall bear much fruit. The vine is pruned only to increase the fruitfulness of its branches. Every branch coming out of me which bears no fruit, the Father will take away. Every branch which bears fruit, the Father will cleanse that it may bear more fruit. Already are you clean through the word I have spoken, but you must continue to be clean. You must abide in me, and I in you; the branch will die if it is separated from the vine. As the branch cannot bear fruit except it abides in the vine, so neither can you yield the fruits of loving service except you abide in me. Remember: I am the real vine, and you are the living branches. He who lives in me, and I in him, will bear much fruit of the spirit and experience the supreme joy of yielding this spiritual harvest. If you will maintain this living spiritual connection with me, you will bear abundant fruit. If you abide in me and my words live in you, you will be able to commune freely with me, and then can my living spirit so infuse you that you may ask whatsoever my spirit wills and do all this with the assurance that the Father will grant us our petition. Herein is the Father glorified: that the vine has many living branches, and that every branch bears much fruit. And when the world sees these fruit-bearing branches–my friends who love one another, even as I have loved them–all men will know that you are truly my disciples.
180:2.5 When there exists this living connection between divinity and humanity, if humanity should thoughtlessly and ignorantly pray for selfish ease and vainglorious accomplishments, there could be only one divine answer: more and increased bearing of the fruits of the spirit on the stems of the living branches. When the branch of the vine is alive, there can be only one answer to all its petitions: increased grape bearing. In fact, the branch exists only for, and can do nothing except, fruit bearing, yielding grapes. So does the true believer exist only for the purpose of bearing the fruits of the spirit: to love man as he himself has been loved by God—that we should love one another, even as Jesus has loved us.
No one must “sell” anything.
“See, I’m learning from you. Absolutely, I’m not confused about that. God has granted me free will and I don’t have to do anything.”
Well….you didn’t learn that from me! Who has ever said we “don’t have to do anything”? There is no faith without act. Faith transforms what we choose to act upon and what our act will be. Experience can (and needs to) transform faith-acts into wisdom and growth and maturity. Learning, discerning, understanding, incorporating, integrating, expanding, serving….all require us to act and do. But not the same things or order or with the same skill and wisdom. Can we love God and the family of believers and God’s universe of universes and do nothing? No way. Faith activates and motivates actions which are our unique and personal expressions of faith and love.
99:4.3 (1089.11) True religion is a meaningful way of living dynamically face to face with the commonplace realities of everyday life. But if religion is to stimulate individual development of character and augment integration of personality, it must not be standardized. If it is to stimulate evaluation of experience and serve as a value-lure, it must not be stereotyped. If religion is to promote supreme loyalties, it must not be formalized.
99:4.4 (1089.12) No matter what upheavals may attend the social and economic growth of civilization, religion is genuine and worth while if it fosters in the individual an experience in which the sovereignty of truth, beauty, and goodness prevails, for such is the true spiritual concept of supreme reality. And through love and worship this becomes meaningful as fellowship with man and sonship with God.
99:4.5 (1090.1) After all, it is what one believes rather than what one knows that determines conduct and dominates personal performances. Purely factual knowledge exerts very little influence upon the average man unless it becomes emotionally activated. But the activation of religion is superemotional, unifying the entire human experience on transcendent levels through contact with, and release of, spiritual energies in the mortal life.
99:4.6 (1090.2) During the psychologically unsettled times of the twentieth century, amid the economic upheavals, the moral crosscurrents, and the sociologic rip tides of the cyclonic transitions of a scientific era, thousands upon thousands of men and women have become humanly dislocated; they are anxious, restless, fearful, uncertain, and unsettled; as never before in the world’s history they need the consolation and stabilization of sound religion. In the face of unprecedented scientific achievement and mechanical development there is spiritual stagnation and philosophic chaos.
Me here: So….are we adding to the chaos caused by anxiety, impatience, fear, and uncertainty? Or are we demonstrating the fruits of the Spirit and bringing relief to fear, doubt, anger, anxieties in others by our lights of hope, confidence, sublime peace, patience, long-suffering, and calm regard to all material ills and woes? We are either part of the problem….or part of the solution and that depends upon the branch’s connection to the vine and the fruits that come by such connection.
99:7.3 (1093.1) Religion inspires man to live courageously and joyfully on the face of the earth; it joins patience with passion, insight to zeal, sympathy with power, and ideals with energy.
99:7.4 (1093.2) Man can never wisely decide temporal issues or transcend the selfishness of personal interests unless he meditates in the presence of the sovereignty of God and reckons with the realities of divine meanings and spiritual values.
Me here: So much to learn and understand……and DO! = )
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
I agree Bonita that becoming attached to the vine is but step one. I think the attachment to the vine depends upon our loyalty to the vine and the source of the vine and our confidence in the vine demonstrated in our life by our choices. Faith is an act and an expression of the ideals discovered by our spirit nature which should come to truly dominate our reason for living. Living requires effort. Does living in the Spirit require more effort? I have not found this to be so. Life is hard…but mine has become easier amongst the same vicissitudes and along the edges of conflict….not harder but easier. The yoke is light we are told. I feel it gets lighter and lighter the more trust in God I have and the more that faith in love drives my choices! Reality is not as difficult an environment as unreality.
To Bonita’s points:
100:2.1 (1095.5) Spiritual development depends, first, on the maintenance of a living spiritual connection with true spiritual forces and, second, on the continuous bearing of spiritual fruit: yielding the ministry to one’s fellows of that which has been received from one’s spiritual benefactors. Spiritual progress is predicated on intellectual recognition of spiritual poverty coupled with the self-consciousness of perfection-hunger, the desire to know God and be like him, the wholehearted purpose to do the will of the Father in heaven.
100:2.2 (1095.6) Spiritual growth is first an awakening to needs, next a discernment of meanings, and then a discovery of values. The evidence of true spiritual development consists in the exhibition of a human personality motivated by love, activated by unselfish ministry, and dominated by the wholehearted worship of the perfection ideals of divinity. And this entire experience constitutes the reality of religion as contrasted with mere theological beliefs.
100:2.3 (1095.7) Religion can progress to that level of experience whereon it becomes an enlightened and wise technique of spiritual reaction to the universe. Such a glorified religion can function on three levels of human personality: the intellectual, the morontial, and the spiritual; upon the mind, in the evolving soul, and with the indwelling spirit.
100:2.4 (1096.1) Spirituality becomes at once the indicator of one’s nearness to God and the measure of one’s usefulness to fellow beings. Spirituality enhances the ability to discover beauty in things, recognize truth in meanings, and discover goodness in values. Spiritual development is determined by capacity therefor and is directly proportional to the elimination of the selfish qualities of love.
100:2.5 (1096.2) Actual spiritual status is the measure of Deity attainment, Adjuster attunement. The achievement of finality of spirituality is equivalent to the attainment of the maximum of reality, the maximum of Godlikeness. Eternal life is the endless quest for infinite values.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Life is hard…but mine has become easier amongst the same vicissitudes and along the edges of conflict….not harder but easier. The yoke is light we are told.
Yes! But not because challenges disappear. In fact, challenges keep coming rightatcha. What gets easier is the use of soul powers. The more you use them, the more masterful you become in dealing with those challenges. It’s like any skill or craft. The more you use the tools, the better you get at it, the more artful the result and more lasting the beauty.
Oh absolutely!! My life is no less chaotic….thanks to aging parents and children and business ownership!!!!
Have you heard of the Rule of 63? There’s ALWAYS 63 things that need doing….no matter how many things you get done!
What the fruits have delivered to me is that, in my family and world I am becoming the eye of the hurricane and the rock of calm and fortitude. I am so much more relaxed and less anxious. I have confidence in seeking the lessons within choices rather than managing the outcomes of choices or worry about what happens next! And man things are happening!
Don’t recall the quote but we are taught that we will be given larger and more important tasks laid before us based on our willingness and ability with smaller challenges first. The angels and the TAs constantly steer obstacles/challenges onto our daily path to train us how to remain calm and centered in the face of uncertainty, frustration, failure, and confusion. The material life brings us plenty to do and learn from as we apply the spiritualized perspective to bear on our daily walk.
An old topic of mine is learning how better to respond to the same situations and circumstances of life demanding us to make a choice (response-ability). Procrastination is a form of avoidance. The Spirit delivers a fearlessness and fierceness and re-energizes us to engage in life without anxiety or the fear of failure. Failure is but an opportunity to learn.
Do you know how many failure Edison had in the light bulb before the first glow appeared? Do you know who the strike out king was the year Babe got the home run record?
Life is a day’s work…let us enjoy the day….and the work. = )
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
I’d like to share something with you. Maybe it will help you understand me better, and why I’ve become so focused on the doing thing. Even doing it without thinking, nor understanding it.
My dad, the high priest of atheism, although, he generally treated me well, is very confused about fatherhood and sonship (me).
He isn’t an insightful man, denying that spirit exists even, relegating it with all the other things about religion, he believes to be all made up by the bad people of the Catholic church.
He was rather preoccupied with this, constantly thinking about how he’s right about everything (because he had to be), and everyone else; is wrong.
This preoccupation didn’t allow him much time to engage with his kids. None of us have much to do with him anymore, and if he thinks about this fact, he probably does it like he told me many times: “Enno, I handle it like water off a duck.”
Of the few times he noticed me needing fatherly guidance when I was a kid (I’m his eldest child), he many times told me the same thing over and over and over, until finally, as a young adult, I was only left with great consternation.
He would say:
“Enno, just do as I tell you!”
And the other thing he said, which always accompanied this statement, he said by the way he said it, and the menacing look on his face, said that if I didn’t do what he told me, it would be hell for me.
Now as you might imagine, this situation became really awkward after I awoke to realize he was wrong about God, my Father.
I love my dad and I know he loves me. But as I grew more aware of what was, and still is, being revealed to me about my Father, I could not reconcile the irony of my atheist dad repeatedly and firmly telling me:
“Do as I tell you.”
I still pray that my dad remembers what he told me, and realizes that it was the Father within him, who actually, was calling his name, while using his voice to do it.
Enno
Well….you’re on your own now. And it is time for us all to take responsibility for our own choices and priorities and understandings don’t you think?
God does not provide a list of do’s and don’ts…..that’s up to our own free will and that list will be expressed by our own volition now.
Thanks for sharing….could you tie it into the topic somehow?
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
- Bradly wrote: Well….you’re on your own now. And it is time for us all to take responsibility for our own choices and priorities and understandings don’t you think?
Thanks for that Bradly. My sentiments as well . . . a little maturity here please? The fact that you were scorned by your father does not give you license to come to this forum and scorn Bradly and me . . . a little tired of it, frankly. And we’ve heard the story before. Thanks anyway.
could you tie it into the topic somehow?
Well where is this topic now? I think we’re still talking about confusion and the lack of understanding right?
What I shared I did to illustrate how bad confusion can be, due to the lack of understanding, and how even with an atheist, God is still whispering in his ears the echoes of the words that have come out of his own mouth, maybe. I can’t get over the irony of it.
When I think about what the main message of the Urantia Book is, I see that it’s dedication, dedication to, by faith alone, the doing of the Father’s will.
Jesus is our inspiration for how to do it. In our minds, Jesus keeps asking us to:
“Do as well as you can understand, my Father’s, and your Father’s will.”
That’s it!
