↗ Live site
Preview: a read-only copy of the forum. To post or reply, use the current forum.

Agondonters

420 posts · 13 participants · started Mar 23, 2017, 2:39 PM

  1. The “temptations” faced by mortals would appear to me to be related to self serving, dominance over others, self importance, self indulgence, and allowing the physical or material body to determine motive, intention, priority, and choice.

    I grew up being taught that all such temptations came from only two sources:  humanity’s ‘sinful’ ‘nature’ and the devil.

    Now we know (and many have known for a long time) that temptation is a function of our dual nature.  I think one might claim that the spirit nature does as much tempting as the material nature does….we are ‘tempted’ to look inward and to listen to the small voice and to be generous and kind and to forgive….and to love one another.

    Remember the old cartoons where an angel whispers in one ear and a devil whispers in the other and the mind in between them is torn by indecision?  Not so inaccurate perhaps?  But it is merely the adjutants trying to teach and lure the mind to the higher and more noble aspects of our inherent nature.  Every time we allow the spirit nature to ‘decide’, we progress and every time we allow the material/self nature to decide, we regress.  There is a momentum and mass that comes over time making it more of a struggle to move the other way.  Bonita has posted a quote about this – the more materialistic OR spiritual we are, the less tension and confusion in our choices – while the more we are responsive to one nature or the other, the less confusion in mind we have.  Got to be careful which ear is hearing the most and guiding us in our choices!

    Reminds me of the old Native American tale of the two wolves:

    One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people.

    He said, “My son, the battle is between two wolves inside us all”

    “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”

    The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”

    The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed”.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  2. Bradley

    is that Cherokee lesson from the book the education of little tree?

    sounds very familiar

  3. Gene wrote: the temptations of the lesser-lower is not necessarily temptation to do evil.

    Exactly!  The lower adjutants are normal evolutionary urges designed to propel, not only our physical bodies, but our human natures forward.   The lower urges are not necessarily evil.  They were put there with a purpose and they align with universe plans, which are not evil.

    What is evil about quick perception; self-preservation; automatic association of ideas; quick reasoning; moral stamina; spiritual bravery; curiosity; urge for cooperation; gregarious instincts and the will to harmonize with others?  Nothing . . . absolutely nothing.  And if these lower adjutant impulses are guided by the two higher adjutants, it leads to the development of the religious instinct, the soul and eventually a divine nature which will override the lower nature . . . because it’s better, more fun and more fulfilling.

    As long as people don’t inhibit these God-given urges provided by the Creative Spirit, then they will develop into faith-sons who survive.  It’s not that hard really.  The problem is, I think, that since the rebellion, people no longer trust mind spirit ministries; they try to micromanage them.  Distrust is not a good thing.  People on “normal” planets don’t have as much trouble with the lower adjutant mind ministry because they trust it. It hasn’t been turned around all backwards, upside down and inwards . . . looking at self-preservation in the completely wrong direction, the exact opposite of the urge of the very first and lowest adjutant.  If you’re fighting the first adjutant, how can the others do their job well . . . think about it.  If the adjutants can’t function well, the religious instincts don’t function well either.  Everything turns to muck in the mind.  Without revelation we’d sink under those circumstances.  It takes a strong, experienced Adjuster to get through that kind of mire.  And all it takes is a little cooperation . . . so simple a caveman can do it.

  4. Every time we allow the spirit nature to ‘decide’, we progress and every time we allow the material/self nature to decide, we regress.

    I don’t know if I agree with this entirely.  I don’t think it’s a matter of black and white; right ear, left ear.  Isn’t it more about striking a balance between the material and the spiritual?  All reality levels have needs and I don’t think it’s a seesaw relationship, up or down.  It’s about striking a harmonious relationship with all three levels of reality while growing and progressing forward toward more and more spiritual influence on those three levels.   It’s more of a wholistic approach.

    I don’t know the best way to explain this.  It seems that I always fall short describing the elliptical symmetry of reality.  But think about it: Jesus gave attention to both the material and spiritual needs of himself, his family and his apostles and their families.  Heck, his first miracle was about wine, and his second was healing physical bodies.  It all matters and it matters most if the spiritual nature can direct the activities of the material nature making life more true, beautiful and good.

    I do believe it is possible to live a righteous, completely God-centered life and be a fat, rich person with all the material comforts known to man.  Those things are not incompatible with the spiritual life.  More on that later.  Out of time for now.

  5. Bradly wrote: Every time we allow the spirit nature to ‘decide’, we progress and every time we allow the material/self nature to decide, we regress.

    The more I think about this statement, the less I agree with it.  I think it needs to be refined because decisions are made within the context of constantly moving parts.  A decision made this moment may be good, but in the next not so good, or even, perhaps better.  It’s not just about right and wrong decisions.  I think decisions cover the entire gamut and the goal is moving toward good, better and best.  But sometimes a neutral decision is the best . . . in other words . . .  doing nothing can be right under some circumstances.  For example, when Jesus took the apostles apart when they were knee-deep in disputes with John’s disciples over decisions that had to be made.  Sometimes no decision is best. So again, it can’t be black and white if decision making is to be a living and flexible part of life.

    When it comes to decisions, it’s about turning potentials into actuals.  But the best actuals are not only timed perfectly, they have the best bang for the buck when it comes to meanings and values.  It’s not just about making a right or wrong decision, the decision has to be done for the right reasons at the right time and in the right manner.  Lot’s of “rights” to consider there. And that is why I think what was right yesterday might not be right today, and vice versa.  It is a moving, growing and progressing concept.  Ever changing.  I’m reminded of this quote:

    118:6.6 In the mortal life, paths of differential conduct are continually opening and closing, and during the times when choice is possible the human personality is constantly deciding between these many courses of action.Temporal volition is linked to time, and it must await the passing of time to find opportunity for expression. Spiritual volition has begun to taste liberation from the fetters of time, having achieved partial escape from time sequence, and that is because spiritual volition is self-identifying with the will of God.

    Spiritual volition . . . what’s that?  I’m guessing that’s the will of God, which is something we sporadically do in this life.  And when we do, we begin to taste this type of liberation, but we are still limited in our choices while living within time.  We can make the faith-leap to our souls, which somewhat transcends time, but we must live within time.  This means that we can visit our souls, we can even choose to partially live there, but we still make decisions in this material world with our material minds.

    I think that as we climb the psychic circles, the soul has more and more influence over our material mind’s decision making process, provided the personality gives permission.   This is the goal.  Transference of dominance means that the personality gives permission to the soul to sort through the many options facing us when it’s decision time.   In this way, the meanings and values discovered in the soul eventually dominate decision making on the material level.  Years ago I used to call this bringing love to life.  (It wasn’t well received, but that was the “other” forum, c’est la vie!)  Bringing love to life is actuating the divine potentials discovered in the soul.

    Now personally, I don’t find divine potentials just floating around like butterflies in my soul awaiting my net.  It’s not like that at all.  Potentials are living, flexible, ever changing dependent upon the various relationships in one’s material life (personal and otherwise).  Each decision is potentially unique for the situation at hand.  The goal is to actuate the best option for the situation.  But sometimes I think that good and gooder, is also acceptable given our capacity to recognize meanings and values.  That’s why my conduct in a particular situation today may seem best, but when I look back from a future time, I may understand it as only okay.  Good enough, but could have been gooder. But I didn’t know any better at the time, so what I did was okay with God for that particular stage of growth I was in.

    Is this making any sense?  ‘Cause I never know when to shut up.

     

     

  6. sorry

  7. Robbie Nevil Lyrics        C’est La Vie

    Got a job
    That’s okay
    But they’ve got me workin’ night and day.
    Punchin’ in
    Punchin’ out
    Is this really what life’s all about?
    What you are gonna do
    What you are gonna feel? I don’t know.
    What you ore gonna feel
    What you are gonna do?
    Won’t someone tell me?
    What yov want to say
    What you want to do
    There’s only one thing left to say.
    What you want to do
    What you want to say.
    See’est la vie
    See’est la vie –
    That’s iust the way it goes – That’s right!
    See’est la vie
    See’est la vie –
    That’s iust the way it goes – That’s right!
    Baby’s gone all alone
    Are you sad because you’re on your own?
    Get back up
    Party down
    There’s so many good ones still around.
    What you are gonna do
    What you are gonna feel? I don’t know.
    What you are gonna feel
    What you are gonna do?
    Won’t someone tell me?
    What you want to say
    What you want to do
    I guess there’s just one thing to say.
    See’est la vie
    See’est la vie –
    That’s iust the way it goes – That’s right!
    Hey
    It’s J.J.
    What you been doin’?
    You say your car broke down
    The thing just isn’t movin’.
    Say J.J.
    Don’t you know when you’re down
    There’s just one way to go
    And that’s singin’
    See’est la vie
    See’est la vie –
    That’s iust the way it goes – That’s right!
    See’est la vie
    See’est la vie –
    That’s iust the way it goes – That’s right!
    See’est la vie
    See’est la vie –
    That’s iust the way it goes – That’s right!

    VanAmadon  …..    what this song his all about ????
    Nelsong …. sorry about what ???
    … his yours posts make senses to something ?
  8. … his yours posts make senses to something ?

    Thanks André.  It’s just another attempt to derail the topic.  We’ve seen this movie before and it’s a flop.

    But I’m curious, do you think decisions are black and white?  Good or bad?  Right or wrong?  Or do you think decisions are multifaceted.  Do you think most decisions require a bit of insight into potential cause and effect, value versus lack of value?  Don’t the best decisions bring more clarity and stability to a situation, rather than chaos and confusion.  Shouldn’t people think about what they do first?  Shouldn’t they ask their inner selves if this will help the situation in some way?  Or is a reflex reaction the best option, such as, it feels “good” to me right now so that’s what I’m gonna do?  Is going with your first gut reaction, the one that makes you happy about yourself, the best decision?  Don’t we judge decisions by their results?  If the result makes you feel good about yourself, but others experience more chaos (like derailing threads), is that really a worthwhile and valuable  decision worth presenting to the Supreme?

  9. Jesus decision to do nothing or be neutral was still a decision that had impact or consequences.

    can I interpret “transference of dominance” to mean wisdom and don’t you think that any decision other than gut reaction, or instinctual response requires it?

     

  10. Gene wrote: . . . can I interpret “transference of dominance” to mean wisdom
    Wisdom is only the first step to the transference of dominance.  The search for wisdom merely opens the gateway to the soul (spiritual insight).  Once you get there you still have to discover, recognize, interpret and choose.
    Recall this quote:

    16:6.6 1. Causation — the reality domain of the physical senses, the scientific realms of logical uniformity, the differentiation of the factual and the nonfactual, reflective conclusions based on cosmic response. This is the mathematical form of the cosmic discrimination.

    16:6.7 2. Duty — the reality domain of morals in the philosophic realm, the arena of reason, the recognition of relative right and wrong. This is the judicial form of the cosmic discrimination.

    16:6.8 3. Worship — the spiritual domain of the reality of religious experience, the personal realization of divine fellowship, the recognition of spirit values, the assurance of eternal survival, the ascent from the status of servants of God to the joy and liberty of the sons of God. This is the highest insight of the cosmic mind, the reverential and worshipful form of the cosmic discrimination.

    Wisdom is part of duty, philosophical reasoning, the ability to make moral judgments.  Transfer of dominance requires all three levels of reality recognition and discrimination.

    103:9.10 When reason once recognizes right and wrong, it exhibits wisdom; when wisdom chooses between right and wrong, truth and error, it demonstrates spirit leading. And thus are the functions of mind, soul, and spirit ever closely united and functionally interassociated. Reason deals with factual knowledge; wisdom, with philosophy and revelation; faith, with living spiritual experience. Through truth man attains beauty and by spiritual love ascends to goodness.

    Gene wrote: . . . don’t you think that any decision other than gut reaction, or instinctual response requires it?
    Ideally yes, but sadly there are so few cosmic thinkers, as TUB tells us.  Wisdom, I think, is earned.  Right?

    132:3.5 But truth can never become man’s possession without the exercise of faith. This is true because man’s thoughts, wisdom, ethics, and ideals will never rise higher than his faith, his sublime hope. And all such true faith is predicated on profound reflection, sincere self-criticism, and uncompromising moral consciousness. Faith is the inspiration of the spiritized creative imagination.

    I’m not sure if the discussion of wisdom is related to the agondonter phenomenon or not.  I guess if you consider the difference between faith and wisdom, or better, how they are interrelated, then perhaps it is.  Bradley’s the final arbiter.

    101:6.3   Moral will embraces decisions based on reasoned knowledge, augmented by wisdom, and sanctioned by religious faith. Such choices are acts of moral nature and evidence the existence of moral personality, the forerunner of morontia personality and eventually of true spirit status.

    101:6.8 The teachings of Jesus constituted the first Urantian religion which so fully embraced a harmonious co-ordination of knowledge, wisdom, faith, truth, and love as completely and simultaneously to provide temporal tranquillity, intellectual certainty, moral enlightenment, philosophic stability, ethical sensitivity, God-consciousness, and the positive assurance of personal survival.

    110:3.7 Choosing to respond to divine leading; sincerely basing the human life on the highest consciousness of truth, beauty, and goodness, and then co-ordinating these qualities of divinity through wisdom, worship, faith, and love

         
  11. What do you think is happening when we believe without seeing? A decision? No wisdom involved? No choosing?

    The various ministries reach down while we reach up is a process I recall reading about but reaching up is a choice/decision.

    On the other hand, response to the lower Adjutants I do not believe requires decision making, worship and wisdom seem to be different in that respect.

    i think I’m getting off track

  12. Gene wrote: What do you think is happening when we believe without seeing? A decision? No wisdom involved? No choosing?

    Well sure it’s a decision, but a decision without concrete evidence to influence it.  Believing without seeing is a decision based upon mystery.

    Think about it . . .  we accept the so-called laws of science because there is data we can use our senses to validate.  We know that what goes up must come down unless it goes so far up that it enters into orbit.  Physical gravity is real to us because we can perceive it with our physical senses.  That’s the level of discrimination called causation in the previous quote.

    We accept the reality of certain moral decisions because we can see their effects on the group.  There is something to measure success by.  When you lock up the guy who goes around in his birthday suit harassing little children, the group benefits, it’s verifiable.  When you stop the guy who gets his jollies shooting up the place, the group benefits.  All can agree it’s a good thing.  Those decisions take some thought, they require a sense of right and wrong, or wisdom, and the results are generally verifiable.  That’s the level of discrimination called duty in the previous quote.

    Then you have those unusual occurrences that everyone agrees are unexplainable.  We all recognize when someone does something so unselfish and generous that it’s way out of the “norm”.  It’s something very special.  We don’t know where that sort of thing comes from, but we know it is something remarkable.  Usually we put halos on these people, make monuments to them and even worship them.  Whatever it is that they have, whatever convinces them to do extraordinary things,  the causative agent can’t be seen or verified with human senses.  There’s mystery involved, or it’s magic; but accepting the mystery and attributing value to it without reproducible verification takes an act of faith.  That’s the level of discrimination called worship in the previous quote.

    If we had 8 foot tall people with violet rays of light shooting out of their heads, who eat a magic tree in order to keep living age after age, telling us that the mystery is no mystery at all but something that really exists, then we wouldn’t have to rely so heavily on faith-trust.  Yes, we would still need it, but we’d have some verifiable evidence that it’s real, evidence that we can see, touch and hear, which would make the decision infinitely easier, I would think.

     

     

  13. On the other hand, response to the lower Adjutants I do not believe requires decision making, worship and wisdom seem to be different in that respect.

    Great topic.  Maybe another thread?  It’s up to Bradley.

  14. I think the Adjutants are important elements to the Agondonter conversation….which I am enjoying very much….however, temporal issues require attention right now.  Thanks Bonita for your responses to my last post on the material and spiritual dual natures.  My post lacked clarity and I appreciate you view on the matter….and I know that we must apply both natures and will always value our material origins even when the transfer of the seat of our identity becomes more fully spiritized.  Sometimes uncertainty becomes chaos for us to respond to with skill and wisdom.

     

    Thanks everyone!  = )

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  15. Thanks Bradley.  I hope your temporal issues will be met with decisions born of the spirit, which are decisions based upon wisdom and infused with Adjuster guidance.  And yeah, I agree that uncertainty and chaos are incentives for wisdom which opens the gate to higher potentials, potentials which bring stability.  After all, that is what we are in search of right?  . . . harmony, stability, coordination, integration and identification with universe ideals.

    155.5.11  The religion of the spirit means effort, struggle, conflict, faith, determination, love, loyalty, and progress. The religion of the mind — the theology of authority — requires little or none of these exertions from its formal believers. Tradition is a safe refuge and an easy  for those fearful and halfhearted souls who instinctively shun the spirit struggles and mental uncertainties associated with those faith voyages of daring adventure out upon the high seas of unexplored truth in search for the farther shores of spiritual realities as they may be discovered by the progressive human mind and experienced by the evolving human soul.

     

  16. On the other hand, response to the lower Adjutants I do not believe requires decision making, worship and wisdom seem to be different in that respect.

    All the adjutants stimulate decision making and each has their effect.  Decisions are made within the mind and mind ministry has an active role in all of them unless thwarted.  Only the personality can pick and choose the decisions of mind it thinks worthwhile.  But mind ministry itself is always prodding, urging and driving the thought processes toward decisions which further the evolution of the whole.  That’s one of the reasons I think TUB is a breakthrough.  Who ever thought mind would be a ministry, something overseen by a greater power so loving and beautiful that it defies understanding?  Try explaining that to the average Joe.  Trust me, all you get is a blank stare, deer in headlights.  It’s a brand new idea in this world.

    Have you ever wondered why Andon’sdecision to run away from his sisters, and his cousins and his aunts (Gilbert & Sullivan, sorry) was such a big deal?  It doesn’t seem like enough of a decision to blast him into the seventh circle and bona fide humanhood to me, but alas it was.  Why was it so great?  It wasn’t very selfless. Was it even a moral decision?  It actually always seemed a little bit selfish to me, really. Why did that decision matter more than any other decision?  Well . . . I’m thinking partly because they were simians.  You can’t expect rocket science or messiahship from a simian.  It seems to me that any decision that moves the mind and person toward universe goals can suffice given the circumstances.

    Of course, we’re much further along on the evolutionary trail, so the decisions we make probably have a higher bar.  But just the same, we’re really just a little further along than a simian, so I’m sure simple decisions that don’t seem all that supernatural in power, may be the ones that really matter in the end.

    Oh  . . . oops . . . wait a minute.  I think I’ve wandered off topic.  Hmm, let me think.  So what were we talking about again?  Oh yeah, the difference between worship/wisdom decisions and other adjutant decisions.  I guess what I’m trying to say is that each adjutant has it’s duty to encourage certain types of decisions.  So in a way, they’re all different.  Worship and wisdom decisions are superanimal decisions.  They separate us from the simians and provide the moral soil for further growth.  Mind ministry doesn’t stop there though.  It always overlaps and always draws, with mind gravity, toward the source.  Yaddayaddayadda.  Okay, now your turn.

  17. Yaddayaddayadda. Okay, now your turn.

    Ok, let me add to the discussion then.

    So what I see here is, being thoroughly immersed in fiddling with the details of Adjutants, decisions and wisdom, all the while sitting on the seats of your identities, Rome burns.

    Ladies and gentlemen, is this what studying the Urantia Book is all about?

     

  18. Ladies and gentlemen, is this what studying the Urantia Book is all about?

    Stay on topic Enno.  If you’d like to start another topic on what studying TUB means to you, please feel free to do so.  Thanks in advance.

  19. Thanks for the suggestion Bonita.

Reply on the current forum

↑ Back to top