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Agondonters

420 posts · 13 participants · started Mar 23, 2017, 2:39 PM

BradlyParticipant
May 12, 2017, 9:31 PM
Thanks for including “..as well as you can understand..”

This is key I think. God’s will for us does not include particular or certain choices or behaviors. God’s will is love; love of life, love of one another, love for creation, and love for God.

When one is motivated by love, more and more of our choices will lead to experiential wisdom or a greater understanding of love, a better appreciation of love, and a better and better expression of love by our experiential wisdom acquired by doing anything at all motivated by higher and higher forms of love. When we become motivated by loving service to one another, we have found God’s will and WAY. The more of us who do so the more power and influence does love have on the totality of all of us.

It is my will that thine will be done Lord. Even the lowly tadpole on a dark world can do this.

1:1.2 (22.5) The Universal Father never imposes any form of arbitrary recognition, formal worship, or slavish service upon the intelligent will creatures of the universes. The evolutionary inhabitants of the worlds of time and space must of themselves — in their own hearts — recognize, love, and voluntarily worship him. The Creator refuses to coerce or compel the submission of the spiritual free wills of his material creatures. The affectionate dedication of the human will to the doing of the Father’s will is man’s choicest gift to God; in fact, such a consecration of creature will constitutes man’s only possible gift of true value to the Paradise Father. In God, man lives, moves, and has his being; there is nothing which man can give to God except this choosing to abide by the Father’s will, and such decisions, effected by the intelligent will creatures of the universes, constitute the reality of that true worship which is so satisfying to the love-dominated nature of the Creator Father.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Van AmadonParticipant
May 12, 2017, 11:02 PM

Bradly wrote:

Even the lowly tadpole on a dark world can do this.

I must admit to a limitation. Learning to understand what others are saying, realizing that under the best circumstance I’m always going to be at least, a little confused sometimes, I’m experiencing more and more comfort as I, like a proverbial tadpole, begin to fathom what is motivating those I don’t naturally find easy to understand, and instead give it up, and keep my faith in God’s overcare of the brotherhood of man that what I fail to know, is only a matter of time.

So I’ll continue, with all of you, to pray, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, which is how for me, understanding knowledge will finally be achieved through my dedication to God’s love.

“If you could only know your fellows, you would eventually fall in love with them.”
BonitaParticipant
May 13, 2017, 1:49 PM

Bradly wrote: This is key I think. God’s will for us does not include particular or certain choices or behaviors.

Oh I agree! If I pray and ask God what to do, I’m certain a little voice is not going to suddenly appear telling me what to do. God doesn’t work that way. We have to decide on our own. But if I pray for wisdom in making my choice, I do get clearer concentration and a deeper reflection on the choices available to me, especially if I take the time to thank God for the problem in the first place. Thanking him for the opportunity to solve another moral conundrum is key in my experience. I think gratitude helps open the gateway to the soul. Once I get there it becomes rather obvious what the best option is, even if I don’t like it, and sometimes frankly, I don’t because it’s uncomfortable for my ego. That is, until I actually do it, and then I realize that the discomfort my ego feared was only in my imagination. Hah! Another victory over evil!

4:4.9 The consciousness of a victorious human life on earth is born of that creature faith which dares to challenge each recurring episode of existence when confronted with the awful spectacle of human limitations, by the unfailing declaration: Even if I cannot do this, there lives in me one who can and will do it, a part of the Father-Absolute of the universe of universes. And that is “the victory which overcomes the world, even your faith.”
MaraParticipant
May 13, 2017, 3:44 PM
This reference reiterates some of the points previously made on this topic. But the first sentence kinda jumped out at me. “Religion is functional in the human mind and has been realized in experience prior to its appearance in human consciousness.”

Perhaps *functional* refers to the unknown (in human consciousness) work of the adjutant mind spirits in preparing the mind for the reception of a Thought Adjuster, as well as the little known work of the Spirit of Truth and the Holy Spirit. The work of the Spirit is seamless and these influences are all as one. (8:5.4)

103:2.1 Religion is functional in the human mind and has been realized in experience prior to its appearance in human consciousness. A child has been in existence about nine months before it experiences birth. But the “birth” of religion is not sudden; it is rather a gradual emergence. Nevertheless, sooner or later there is a “birth day.” You do not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you have been “born again” — born of the Spirit. Many spiritual births are accompanied by much anguish of spirit and marked psychological perturbations, as many physical births are characterized by a “stormy labor” and other abnormalities of “delivery.” Other spiritual births are a natural and normal growth of the recognition of supreme values with an enhancement of spiritual experience, albeit no religious development occurs without conscious effort and positive and individual determinations. Religion is never a passive experience, a negative attitude. What is termed the “birth of religion” is not directly associated with so-called conversion experiences which usually characterize religious episodes occurring later in life as a result of mental conflict, emotional repression, and temperamental upheavals.

“. . . no religious development occurs without conscious effort and positive and individual determinations.”
BradlyParticipant
May 15, 2017, 4:26 PM
Great quote Mara…thank you. While the topic is specifically agondonter (or finaliter from a dark and isolated world), I am really benefiting by our consideration of the religious experience in primitive minds and how faith is formed and how the dual nature does naturally find recognition and response in every normal mind.

I’ve been watching lots of Nature shows recently and it is obvious that there is intelligent, creative, and situationally-responsive mind at work in both the plant and animal kingdom. Adaptations that are not random or strictly bio related IMO.

This ‘mind’ thing is huge!!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
GeneParticipant
May 15, 2017, 5:30 PM

Bradly This ‘mind’ thing is huge!!

it would be cool to find out who the originator of the phrase “mind over matter” was.
BonitaParticipant
May 15, 2017, 6:33 PM

Gene wrote:

it would be cool to find out who the originator of the phrase “mind over matter” was.

According to wikipedia, it was Sir Charles Lyell in 1863. Seems odd to me. Didn’t the Greeks have the same idea at some point? Will have to look that up.
BradlyParticipant
May 16, 2017, 9:36 PM
Just goes to show how much there is to learn in the Papers!! No matter how many times I read them there are always new connections and expanded context which affects perspective. The ‘mind’ is certainly one of those, as is faith, and the dual nature too.

Mara posted the following and the text: “This reference reiterates some of the points previously made on this topic. But the first sentence kinda jumped out at me. ”

“Religion is functional in the human mind and has been realized in experience prior to its appearance in human consciousness.”

Yeah, it really jumped out at me too. I’d like to hear more about this. Religion is functional “prior to” our awareness of it. Considering the religious life of Andon and Fonta, the original humans on our world, was sufficient for Urantia to be declared inhabited and for them to acquire Thought Adjusters so early is remarkable to me. And that certainly challenges any notion that knowledge, facts, intelligence, or beliefs are conditional or required elements for a personal religious experience is very important to me.

I wonder if self isolation in temperature modified indoor environments is one way our society is losing touch with a powerful influence that helps minimize the ‘me’ within the ‘we’? I mean I grew up outdoors! The sky and clouds and wind and trees and forest and fields and streams and stars and sunrise and sunset and bugs and birds and animals large and small and frogs and tadpoles and crawdaddys and all the rest….all made me wonder at the glory of creation and the grandeur and sheer scale of that part of reality. It was not difficult to see God in everything around me. My source of childish distraction was engagement with the elements of creation.

Today it seems distraction takes more the forms of disengagement from reality rather than immersion in reality. So not only are we as a race ignorant of universe reality beyond our world, we’re getting more disengaged from the reality of our world and its obvious fact of being a place by purpose, power, plan, genius, and of beauty. I think perhaps that modernism is so distracting and is so by human manufactured and marketed forms of distraction which tends to isolate people from reality and from one another too.

The spirit nature of our dual nature has new obstacles to overcome in its work to get our attention and our dedication to the larger realities that used to be so obvious and such a large part of our experience. Perhaps religion is made too cerebral without the glory and grandeur of the wonderful world all around us.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the topic…still interesting. The consideration of the religious experience in children, primitives, and the most ignorant of us begins, I think, to gain understanding of how Agondonters might even come about – Finaliters from dark, isolated, and confused worlds where the material/animal nature appears so much stronger than the spirit nature – still are souls born and rebirth in the Spirit and the transfer of the seat of identity from the lower nature to the higher. Amazing how effective are our endowments of personality and mind in the creation of faith, the response to love, and the desire to serve others. What a world!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
May 16, 2017, 11:53 PM

Bradly wrote: “Religion is functional in the human mind and has been realized in experience prior to its appearance in human consciousness.”

There’s a companion quote for that:

65:7.7 The adjutants function exclusively in the evolution of experiencing mind up to the level of the sixth phase, the spirit of worship. At this level there occurs that inevitable overlapping of ministry – the phenomenon of the higher reaching down to co-ordinate with the lower in anticipation of subsequent attainment of advanced levels of development. And still additional spirit ministry accompanies the action of the seventh and last adjutant, the spirit of wisdom. Throughout the ministry of the spirit world the individual never experiences abrupt transitions of spirit co-operation; always are these changes gradual and reciprocal.

Bradly wrote: Today it seems distraction takes more the forms of disengagement from reality rather than immersion in reality.

You got that right!!! Half this country is living in a fantasy world which is totally unreal (evil) and they’re suffering horribly because evil cannot be acted out, only truth can. It’s a tragedy. A real tragedy, but they keep trying despite their constant failures without realizing the cause. Sad. All that cannot be spiritualized will become disorganized . . . how true is that!
BonitaParticipant
May 18, 2017, 12:44 PM

Bonita wrote: There’s a companion quote for that:

Just found another companion quote for religion being functional in the mind before we become conscious of it.

111:2.9 This supernal transaction of evolving the immortal soul is made possible because the mortal mind is first personal and second is in contact with superanimal realities; it possesses a supermaterial endowment of cosmic ministry which insures the evolution of a moral nature capable of making moral decisions, thereby effecting a bona fide creative contact with the associated spiritual ministries and with the indwelling Thought Adjuster.

Note that evolution is insured because of the presence of personality which seeks creative contact with supermaterial reality. This evolutionary process begins the moment personality is gifted or bestowed. Then if you add the Adjuster, who provides the urge for the mind to strive for spirit, it’s an event well in the making prior to becoming fully conscious of it. Don’t forget that we have two types of consciousness: intellectual material-mind consciousness and soul consciousness, which is morontial in nature and motivated by spirit. Soul consciousness is something we gradually become aware of after the birth of the soul, whereas consciousness of our own intellect is something that begins right after physical birth. It’s a well thought out, overlapping evolutionary process of mind function. And don’t forget, in the first circle there is yet another type of consciousness that begins to unfold gradually . . . won’t bore you with that now.
BradlyParticipant
May 18, 2017, 2:58 PM
Okay…but please “bore” us soon…..hahahaha!

I’ve never experienced such an extensive examination of the mind and spirit ministries in and for mortal transformation!!

So many elements of influence and so integrated and harmonized….a true ‘conspiracy’ of the Spirit(s) aided by universal as well as personal forces (i.e. the gravity circuits, Supreme, Holy Spirit, etc.).

Our consciousness can certainly aid, assist, enable, propel, and accelerate the spiritization process. However, we are naturally born and endowed with these many forms of spirit influences to be inherently capable of soul birth and growth and circle progress even without or prior to our conscious cooperation and/or realization of this growth.

And this is how the mortal worlds and people can, do, and will evolve through the mortal epochs….a progression which depends, almost completely, on this generation by generation transformation toward and into that consciousness of each mind born on these worlds of material origin. The ministries of the Prince and the Garden provide leadership and example and education to the primitives of a world. But truly, these agents of planetary service and upliftment exist for thousands, even tens and hundreds of thousands of years while much, even most, of the world’s people are completely unaware of their presence and whose lives are only meagerly influenced by these great institutions of global transformation….it takes a long, long time for these centers of influence to transform all peoples on any world.

But individually speaking, once a world is determined and declared to be “inhabited”, people are immediately encircuited by so many ministries….and those mind and spirit ministries can elevate the individual experience in ways that may transform any person during one brief mortal life/generation. Our world is a demonstration of this reality. Despite the failure of both the Prince and the Garden, people could still respond to spirit and choose/will the spirit nature to become dominant in mind and do so without understanding, or knowledge, or example.

Now I was born and grew up in a time where the Son’s Spirit and the TA’s are at work and their combined power and influence adds another whole dimension(s) to this inherent capacity for spirit response and reality self-identification. I was also blessed with a Christian upbringing where the Jesusonian mustard seed lies in plain view for those “with an ear to hear” the truth of the Gospel OF Jesus imbedded in the Christian doctrines or the gospel ABOUT Jesus.

I appreciate this place to learn and those of you who teach here….by questions and learning! A special thanks to Bonita who’s clear thinking and understanding of the teachings allows her to so eloquently summarize and integrate so many elements in the Papers.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
May 18, 2017, 3:42 PM
You really flatter me Bradly, and I know it irritates some people here, but I’m grateful, that’s for sure. Anyway, somehow or another we have to come to an agreement of terminology about consciousness. I don’t think, when we discuss it on this forum, that we’re all on the same page. I’m not sure I have the skills to do this, but together we might make it happen.

In regards to your mention of being without conscious cooperation:

Bradly wrote: However, we are naturally born and endowed with these many forms of spirit influences to be inherently capable of soul birth and growth and circle progress even without or prior to our conscious cooperation and/or realization of this growth.

First, I think we all agree that growth of all kinds is unconscious. We recognize growth because we can compare our current state to a previously immature state and see a difference. But just because growth itself is unconscious, it doesn’t mean that cooperation isn’t conscious. It’s my understanding that cooperation in the form of truth or perfection hunger is conscious. I’d like to know what you think.

Also, as I understand it, decisions can only be made for or against something we are conscious of. Meaning, we have to be able to recognize the options before we can choose, therefore both the options and the choices are conscious. What is not always conscious is an appreciation of all the various elements that contribute to creating perfection hunger and to the decisions which are capable of satisfying it. What do you think?
KerynMember
May 18, 2017, 5:01 PM

Bradly wrote:

Okay…but please “bore” us soon…..hahahaha! I’ve never experienced such an extensive examination of the mind and spirit ministries in and for mortal transformation!! ….

A special thanks to Bonita who’s clear thinking and understanding of the teachings allows her to so eloquently summarize and integrate so many elements in the Papers.

I agree. Although I’m not posting much in this thread, believe me when I say I am standing back in awe and appreciation for the remarkable scholarship and clarity that is coming through in these posts, especially Bonita’s! It almost seems a shame for such outstanding research and insights to be available only on this forum. I wish that every Urantia reader could see and gain the benefits of this wealth of information that was so generously provided here.
BradlyParticipant
May 18, 2017, 5:10 PM
I agree Keryn…Bonita’s work should be published and archived for this and future generations of students. I have been a beneficiary of hers for over 5 years and thousands of posts on all these and related topics. This is not milk toast!! And yet, I think any devoted student of any experience in the Papers can benefit from such insights and harmonizations an integrations of the Teachings. Bonita has been endlessly patient and kind with me. She has been accused of impatience by some….but this, to me, merely demonstrates impatience with evil, personal agendas where there is no sincere intent to learn or share or care by those she has shown impatience with.

I too am impatient with misstatement, misrepresentation, twisting and tormenting, falsehood, misconception and preconception, etc. It is no sin to not suffer fools lightly when they are intentionally disrupting study and flexing ego muscles in their own perceived self interest. Throwing pearls to swine or humoring the wolves attempting to hide in sheep’s clothing is no form of service or love. Bonita’s greatest “vice” is fearlessness in the face of taunt and torment….nothing wrong with being a fierce advocate for knowledge, understanding, truth, and living in the Kingdom!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
May 18, 2017, 5:19 PM
Bonita posts above: “Also, as I understand it, decisions can only be made for or against something we are conscious of. Meaning, we have to be able to recognize the options before we can choose, therefore both the options and the choices are conscious. What is not always conscious is an appreciation of all the various elements that contribute to creating perfection hunger and to the decisions which are capable of satisfying it. What do you think?”

Me: I think that until responses become reflexive by sufficient experience and wisdom, that all decisions that are spirit led and self selected by the mortal free will must be conscious on some level. I don’t believe we can accidently or inadvertently choose the right way. But that does not make it a ‘conscious’ choice by the common definition of intellectual perception, comparative analysis, weighed outcomes, knowledge/understanding based choices.

So….what’s left? Subconscious, super conscious, and soul conscious. Oh dear. The mind works on so many levels. And we can, apparently, make choices and be responsive to situations, circumstances, and relationships at the intersections of time/decision that are not directly attributable to the waking conscious mind. So where does the conscience come into this? Sorry but still more questions than insights….but hopefully my questions are insightful? Hahahaha! = )

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
KerynMember
May 18, 2017, 7:06 PM
As I understand it, conscience doesn’t really come into play in terms of our designation as agondonters, because conscience is of human origin (or, as paper 110 tells us, “Conscience is a human and purely psychic reaction. It is not to be despised, but it is hardly the voice of God to the soul ….”). It is a reminder to stay within the rather broad and vague norms and mores of whatever human society we happen to live in at the time. It is a mechanism to keep us somewhat in line with generally accepted rules and ethics, but is not of Thought Adjuster origin.

^92:2.6^(1005.2) Religion has at one time or another sanctioned all sorts of contrary and inconsistent behavior, has at some time approved of practically all that is now regarded as immoral or sinful. Conscience, untaught by experience and unaided by reason, never has been, and never can be, a safe and unerring guide to human conduct. Conscience is not a divine voice speaking to the human soul. It is merely the sum total of the moral and ethical content of the mores of any current stage of existence; it simply represents the humanly conceived ideal of reaction in any given set of circumstances.

Nevertheless, conscience does have a role to play in our spiritual growth.

^100:1.5^(1094.7) The soil essential for religious growth presupposes a progressive life of self-realization, the co-ordination of natural propensities, the exercise of curiosity and the enjoyment of reasonable adventure, the experiencing of feelings of satisfaction, the functioning of the fear stimulus of attention and awareness, the wonder-lure, and a normal consciousness of smallness, humility. Growth is also predicated on the discovery of selfhood accompanied by self-criticism — conscience, for conscience is really the criticism of oneself by one’s own value-habits, personal ideals.

Isn’t that the truth?! Whenever my conscience makes itself known, it is always in a manner in which I recognize I did something foolish/ wrong/ inconsiderate and I criticize myself for doing so. When I am disappointed in myself, my conscience lets me know!
BonitaParticipant
May 18, 2017, 8:02 PM
I have to say Bradly and Keryn that you both make this statement by Rodan come to life for me. I can’t tell you how much it means to be appreciated. I hope you both know that the feeling is mutual.

160:2.6 Many noble human impulses die because there is no one to hear their expression. Truly, it is not good for man to be alone. Some degree of recognition and a certain amount of appreciation are essential to the development of human character.
BonitaParticipant
May 18, 2017, 8:23 PM
I think conscience is one of the things that separates humans from animals. You can’t really have a conscience if you’re not both self-conscious and “other-than-self” conscious. Both of those things come along with the personality package.

I also think that conscience is supposed to provide the moral soil in which important decisions sprout. Conscience, like everything else in the mind, evolves. I think it evolves not only with the mores of society, but also with increasing awareness (consciousness ) of the nature of God discovered within the soul. There have been those who rebelled against the common mores because of pangs of conscience and have gone down in history as heroes. Those who risked everything to shelter, transport and care for Jews during the Holocaust come to mind as a recent example. Society’s mores told them one thing was right but their soul suggested something else . . . hence a conflict requiring resolution which likely resulted in soul growth, not to mention a great benefit to society itself. I don’t think conscience is supposed to be despised; I think it’s supposed to be used as a tool. Guilt, on the other hand, is another story altogether.

101:3.1 Religion is so vital that it persists in the absence of learning. It lives in spite of its contamination with erroneous cosmologies and false philosophies; it survives even the confusion of metaphysics. In and through all the historic vicissitudes of religion there ever persists that which is indispensable to human progress and survival: the ethical conscience and the moral consciousness.
GeneParticipant
May 18, 2017, 9:04 PM
“Guilt, on the other hand, is another story altogether.”

it must be tied to conscience somehow otherwise it would cease to be such a bitter clinger. Hindsight type of conscience helps develop growth, guilt and the need to learn about forgiveness. And there must be some mechanism that allows one to let it go. You would think forgiveness but I’m not sure.

also, it’s possible to rebel against the wrong thing. Maybe that’s why its spelling and meaning could be broken down to “con-science.”

But if one is sane and honest, guilt is preventable, or should be.
BradlyParticipant
May 18, 2017, 10:01 PM
Bonita – you deserve any accolades given (and still will your reward await you in heaven). I just hope your hat fits your head tomorrow! Hahahahaha! One other thing I admire about you Bonita….is the total lack of spiritual pride that often attends some minds and is a risk within all minds I think. Seen some pretty special people spiral into the ground by such. A pity. Humility is an interesting topic. Wonder if it has a place here? But strength of conviction and persistence in the pursuit of truth is not a lack of humility. When might courage be mistaken for pride I wonder?

So, conscience also ‘grows’ in purpose and value? Fascinating. It would appear that to truly deny the Spirit and fail to respond to the Spirit and Mind ministries, one must truly exert effort….and suffer for such effort. The local and temporal repercussions of error/evil and sin are significant. Karma (while an incomplete expression of repercussion) study teaches this very thing. Good motives and intentions lead to unpredictable results but good repercussions and growth and reduce personal suffering and fear. Bad motives and intentions may lead to materially good outcomes (OR NOT) but invariable lead to suffering…or lack of happiness and contentment (AT LEAST)!

It would appear then that conscience is a tool/device of learning the Golden Rule, at least at its most basic and self serving level – do unto others, etc. But that conscience can also act as fulcrum and lever for more spiritual motives for decisions and actions which certainly would not appear to be in one’s own self interest (hiding and helping Jews escape per Bonita’s example above).

This ‘conspiracy’ of forces for the transformation of the mortal is incredibly extensive, coordinated, and alluring in ways that our normal mortal minds should readily find the bread of life and the quenching waters of faith.

Now….how does the mind move from ghost fear based God awareness to the Father/Paternal relationship? Some still fear God and damnation as motive for choice even today and with the Son’s Spirit and TA fully engaged. While every Epochal Revelation has taught this basic truth of sonship, nevertheless the love response vs. the fear response seems to come to some minds more readily than others. It did take me awhile to stop blaming God for suffering and to realize the true cause, thus forgiving God for our own failures and faults and bad choices with our free will gift. But I had, as a child, been taught that “Jesus Loves Me” and all the children of the world (regardless of color and good looks – or not). I had felt and known this love before rejecting church and blaming God for allowing (if not causing?) suffering.

Tighten your chin straps everyone, we’re diving in even deeper!! = )

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

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