278 posts · 10 participants · started Aug 22, 2014, 2:00 AM
I imagine these beings where functioning at a level where they were always using their personality.
Precisely! You imagine. Imagination can be very creative.
These beings had not yet rebelled and were doing the will of God. So they would be using their personality as they lived life. You can’t just shut off your personality like a switch once you start using it. It doesn’t just go off away in the corner.
The sun is made up of physical energy last time I checked, these controllers circuitize all physical energy.
Exactly. They control PHYSICAL energy. You’re assuming that the liaison forces seeking Manotia’s destruction were physical. That’s an assumption, a product of imagination. There is nothing literal telling that this was so, and as I recall you said that we have to read the quote literally. [Incidentally, the Master Physical Controllers also have jurisdiction over pre-adjutant, mechanical mind.]
All Manotia would have to do is ask one of these beings to help her and they could easily prevent a lowly angel from harming her.
Where does it say that Master Physical Controllers are at the beck and call of angels? Would you mind supplying the quote?
You can’t just shut off your personality like a switch once you start using it. It doesn’t just go off away in the corner.
The personality is something different than mind, body, soul or spirit. It’s not a matter of turning it off or on, it’s a matter of using it to unify those other parts of the self. Only a whole self, a mature and balanced self, can expand and grow. When the staff used their personality to unify all parts of their morontia selves, they were able to produce a primary midwayer. Makes sense to me.
You can’t just shut off your personality like a switch once you start using it. It doesn’t just go off away in the corner.
The personality is something different than mind, body, soul or spirit. It’s not a matter of turning it off or on, it’s a matter of using it to unify those other parts of the self. Only a whole self, a mature and balanced self, can expand and grow. When the staff used their personality to unify all parts of their morontia selves, they were able to produce a primary midwayer. Makes sense to me.
Most of what you say makes no sense to me. I honestly believe you are completely misleading everyone on this forum most of the time. But that is just my opinion.
The sun is made up of physical energy last time I checked, these controllers circuitize all physical energy.
Exactly. They control PHYSICAL energy. You’re assuming that the liaison forces seeking Manotia’s destruction were physical. That’s an assumption, a product of imagination. There is nothing literal telling that this was so, and as I recall you said that we have to read the quote literally. [Incidentally, the Master Physical Controllers also have jurisdiction over pre-adjutant, mechanical mind.]
All Manotia would have to do is ask one of these beings to help her and they could easily prevent a lowly angel from harming her.
Where does it say that Master Physical Controllers are at the beck and call of angels? Would you mind supplying the quote?
There are controllers stationed on all of these worlds. A rebel trying to destroy another angel would be akin to a toddler trying to punch another toddler in the face with a parent standing right there. That parent would barely have to lift a finger to stop that child. A better analogy would probably be comparing an angel to ant and a controller as a person. They would barely have to lift a finger to stop them and they are already there. One controller could grab all those rebel angels and hold them away from Monatia without even breaking a sweat. Why would they do this? Because they are moral beings. At least all the ones that are personal are moral.
I honestly believe you are completely misleading everyone on this forum most of the time.
Has anyone complained about me misleading them?
There are controllers stationed on all of these worlds. A rebel trying to destroy another angel would be akin to a toddler trying to punch another toddler in the face with a parent standing right there. That parent would barely have to lift a finger to stop that child. A better analogy would probably be comparing an angel to ant and a controller as a person. They would barely have to lift a finger to stop them and they are already there. One controller could grab all those rebel angels and hold them away from Monatia without even breaking a sweat. Why would they do this? Because they are moral beings. At least all the ones that are personal are moral.
Would you please supply me with a quote from the UB that describes this situation, where a Master Physical Controller intercedes in angel spats? I need to read it for myself.
You can’t just shut off your personality like a switch once you start using it. It doesn’t just go off away in the corner.
The personality is something different than mind, body, soul or spirit. It’s not a matter of turning it off or on, it’s a matter of using it to unify those other parts of the self. Only a whole self, a mature and balanced self, can expand and grow. When the staff used their personality to unify all parts of their morontia selves, they were able to produce a primary midwayer. Makes sense to me.
So if you read that paragraph using this logic than that means that the authors had to let us know that they were not having sex with themselves (supposedly non-sexual) liaison. Wow
There are controllers stationed on all of these worlds. A rebel trying to destroy another angel would be akin to a toddler trying to punch another toddler in the face with a parent standing right there. That parent would barely have to lift a finger to stop that child. A better analogy would probably be comparing an angel to ant and a controller as a person. They would barely have to lift a finger to stop them and they are already there. One controller could grab all those rebel angels and hold them away from Monatia without even breaking a sweat. Why would they do this? Because they are moral beings. At least all the ones that are personal are moral.
Would you please supply me with a quote from the UB that describes this situation, where a Master Physical Controller intercedes in angel spats? I need to read it for myself.
Please provide me with quotes that state that 1 + 1 = 2. If you can’t find that in the book then I am going to assume its crazy talk. If the authors don’t say that, then it can’t be true.
Please provide me with quotes that state that 1 + 1 = 2. If you can’t find that in the book then I am going to assume its crazy talk. If the authors don’t say that, then it can’t be true.
Just as I thought. There is no quote. There’s nothing at all in the UB to even suggest that Master Physical Controllers are either at the beck and call of feuding angels or that they intercede on any level in such affairs. It sounds like some assumptions have been made along the line, and just like any other fiction, one is free to believe it as real or recognize it as fiction. This is where the cosmic reality recognition responses come in. I recognize nothing of reality in the fictional assumptions concerning Master Physical Controllers and Manotia’s affairs. No facts have been presented, only non-facts, aka fiction or figment. But I know you think that I’m just cleverly misleading you on this matter.
Currently I am re-reading the rebellion papers and came across two statements I am having trouble reconciling. Would like some input if possible. Thanks. 53:5.6 “There was war in heaven … was not a physical battle as such a conflict might be conceived on Urantia… While displaying none of the barbarities so characteristic of physical warfare on the immature worlds, this conflict was far more deadly; material life is in jeopardy in material combat, but the war in heaven was fought in terms of life eternal.” and… 53:6.3 “… I refused to participate in the projected insult to Michael; and the powerful rebels sought my destruction by means of the liaison forces they had arranged. There was a tremendous upheaval on Jerusem, but not a single loyal seraphim was harmed.” What is the nature of this “destruction” and “harm” the second quote refers to if this war in heaven does not exhibit any of the barbarities normally associated with material battle?
Just a suggestion, don’t smash things together…..the material world will ALWAYS be but a shadow of the spiritual world. Pay attention to how you become eternal – no better book out there as a how-to than the TUB.
Bottom line – think of it as a paper/rock/scissors game – INDIVIDUAL free will is all three, winning every time. Free will is eternal.
Now, I have a question for you – what mental sophistry do you think can do more harm to the individual’s ability to evolve an eternal soul through free will acts than chopping their material head off…? That’s where Caligastia and Daligastia operate – from their high horse belief in their own infallible minds.
Please provide me with quotes that state that 1 + 1 = 2. If you can’t find that in the book then I am going to assume its crazy talk. If the authors don’t say that, then it can’t be true.
Just as I thought. There is no quote. There’s nothing at all in the UB to even suggest that Master Physical Controllers are either at the beck and call of feuding angels or that they intercede on any level in such affairs. It sounds like some assumptions have been made along the line, and just like any other fiction, one is free to believe it as real or recognize it as fiction. This is where the cosmic reality recognition responses come in. I recognize nothing of reality in the fictional assumptions concerning Master Physical Controllers and Manotia’s affairs. No facts have been presented, only non-facts, aka fiction or figment. But I know you think that I’m just cleverly misleading you on this matter.
Well there is nothing to suggest in TUB that an angel could actually do any physical harm to another angel. “Not a single being was harmed”. The rebels attempted to harm Manotia and yet “not a single being was harmed”. So you have to add 1 + 1 together. What being or beings could stop an angel from harming another being? A Master Physical Controller would have been in the area of Manotia and could have prevented any physical altercation. Just because the authors don’t write something out for you doesn’t mean its figment. Just because your “intuitions” don’t tell you something doesn’t mean its not true. Chris also never stated that they did as a matter of fact, he was speculating that they could. Also what about this whole deal of a Princes Staff member having (supposedly non-sexual) liaison with their own self? If these liaisons where only the personality with its own self why would the authors go out of their way to tell us that they were non-sexual? Its obvious that the morontia liaison was between a Danite pair as stated by the authors. The “soul liaison” that was going on was between two beings that is pretty black and white. So your entire rant about Chris talking crazy for suggesting that a being can have a intimate liaison with another being seems to have fallen through.
So your entire rant about Chris talking crazy for suggesting that a being can have a intimate liaison with another being seems to have fallen through.
Refresh my memory. Where did I rant against Chris for suggesting that beings can have intimate liaisons? I don’t recall that. I said that I don’t think that LIAISON FORCES have anything to do with rape, procreation, cocreation, or physical contact. My point is that liaison forces are a caucus of individuals coordinating their efforts to change minds to side with the rebellion against Michael and God.
And I think if you’re going to quote the UB, you should do it accurately. The sentence reads: “There was a tremendous upheaval on Jerusem, but not a single loyal seraphim was harmed.” The word LOYAL is critical to understanding this. Loyalty to Michael and to God is what protected their minds from the harm of sophistry. You and Chris are interpreting the word harm to mean physical harm, but that is not what it means.
Angels are not physical. Besides, what difference does it make if their form is harmed or destroyed? It’s their immortality that matters. It’s no different for us as humans. Our bodies can be destroyed but our eternal life is not jeopardized because of it. It makes no sense for rebels to want to destroy something that doesn’t matter.
Chris has said there are occasions when you will have to conjecture or speculate in revelation. Provided that you qualify it as such, I think it is perfectly fine to speculate to fill in gaps in narratives. An innovation does not, necessarily, have to be spelled out in TUB to ring true. As Scott pointed out, the speculation must withstand the scrutiny of every line in TUB. If there is one line in revelation that counters the speculation, then there is ground to disregard it. You have the support of the authors to speculate, as they engage in it as well.
My final thought: I think there is more to what transpired during the “liaison forces” episode then what conventional thought says. I cannot confirm fully what Chris says about the MPC but I think he has provoked and stimulated thought. I would like for him to elaborate on that topic (I may just email Chris).
I leave you with the following:
“… And many of us speculate that it may be the mission of the gradually accumulating reserves of the ascendant and perfected mortals of the Corps of the Finality, in association with the other six similarly recruiting corps, to administer these outer universes in an effort to compensate their experiential deficiencies in not having participated in the time-space evolution of the Supreme Being….”
BB
This issue, or rather the presentation by Chris on this issue, perplexes me in many ways. I think it may prove helpful to study some of the underlying points and assumptions made in this “construct” of Halvorson’s and Scott’s. Manotia was in danger of mind gang rape or physical or personal destruction at the hands of rebels; but not really because the Physical/power controllers would intervene to manage irascible angels and Lanonandeks; but somehow the rebels didn’t know this; so Manotia never really was in danger from those who sought her personal destruction but the rebels and Manotia thought such a thing; and the quote by Manotia was not a reflection/report on a previous incident so then it must have been a battlefield interview by a roving celestial reporter during this attempted rape which threatened Manotia’s being but didn’t really; and because the Staff had “big souls” and cocreate midwayers, this proves the potential for mind rape – by them? or angels? or a liaison of energy manipulators who couldn’t really do what they attempted but didn’t know that and somehow this is a great danger? And somehow this makes more sense to anybody than the very real danger of eternal destruction potential for disloyalty and rebellion by the free will decision and choice faced by EVERY celestial which was demonstrated and illustrated by this personal account of that time and that danger?
Either Manotia was in danger by the liaison of forces….or not. Either that dangerous liaison could destroy Manotia….. or not. Either Manotia was in fear of others and their power to force their will upon her (rape)….or not. I don’t see how any reading of the text could possibly lead anyone (especially a self proclaimed expert and “teacher” – who makes a cash paid living doing so) to believe that Manotia was in danger at the hands of others or could be destroyed by others or that there was any such fear of such an outcome. Talk about misleading!!!
This leads me to consider the need for gurus (and priests) to claim great mysteries only they can penetrate and how such ones can turn plainly written records into something else entirely and the words inserted in very coy ways to create a sense of danger, threat, and fear in their students. How can one listen to how big souls and angels can violate the individual mind and physical being of ME without fear? Oh dear….my very mind and soul is endangered by lunatic and rogue rebels!! Maybe even by powerful minds right here in River City…oh we gots trouble with a capital T!! I need an interpretor and protector from such dangerous liaison forces – I hope the controllers will protect me!! Good grief.
Is the mind inviolate…or not? Can celestial destroy one another…or not? If so inviolate and if not any such potential danger…..then what the heck is Chris saying?? What a merry go round of nonsense he presents. Really….people pay for this?? Confusing at every level….but someone has the answer….just listen and follow….and pay to play. I don’t find the Revelation all that confusing myself. The individual is an inviolate entity and only the individual has the power to determine their will and way and their outcome….and their is no danger of any kind by any other being – Diety or celestial or mortal – that can possibly threaten that inviolate being that is me – or Manotia – or any other. To think or say or especially “teach” anything else is pure heresy and contrary to the teachings in the Divine gift of the Revelation. Or so I think.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
I am really taken aback at the condemnation meted out at Chris over his teaching. What he claims is controversial only because it flies in the face of the belief of some, obviously. But what I don’t get is the condemnation. I mean, if you disagree with the teaching, so be it. Based on several exchanges in the stream, it seems some are literally offended by his teaching. I asked Bonita earlier if subscribing to the idea that celestials can “rape” could jeopardize the survival of a soul. She said no. Therefore, I see no big deal in people entertaining the notion that celestials possibly could engage in such behavior.
Let me ask you something… would you condemn this author for doing exactly what Chris has done:
13 And many of us speculate that it may be the mission of the gradually accumulating reserves of the ascendant and perfected mortals of the Corps of the Finality, in association with the other six similarly recruiting corps, to administer these outer universes in an effort to compensate their experiential deficiencies in not having participated in the time-space evolution of the Supreme Being.
NO WHERE IS IT WRITTEN IN ANY OF THE REVELATIONS THAT ACCUMULATED RESERVES OF THE ASCENDANT AND PERFECTED MORTALS WILL ADMINISTER OUTER UNIVERSES TO COMPENSATE THEIR EXPERIENTIAL DEFICIENCIES. NO WHERE.
This particular celestial author is JUST AS GUILTY AS CHRIS of ‘speculation.’ And for the record, I am really not on board with the MPC being guardians or acting in some kind of law enforcement capacity.
My two cents.
BB
Speculation is not “teaching” that any being is susceptible to being violated by any other being….that’s not speculation – that’s a pure distortion. There are both facts presented in the UB and truths….Chris presented neither but, rather, contradicts – profoundly and elementally and fundamentally – the Revelation by teaching such fear based theology. Are we sanctified and protected in our selfhood and free will or not? Of course we are! And the angels and midwayers and Staff and Lucifer and Caligastia – all of us and each of us, not matter our station or progress, is an inviolate free will with mind and personality to CHOOSE our own destiny. That choice is THE danger for all and no liaison of any sort can diminish, let alone destroy, that choice. Chris says otherwise in this nonsensical interpretation that appears so clearly wrong in the context of this fundamental FACT. It is true though, perhaps, that he’s right about everything else he teaches…..wouldn’t know and don’t have an opinion until more is presented. But this presentation of falsehoods is enough for me for now. Nothing personal….just a profoundly different belief in this core teaching and a personal rejection of his delusional confusions around such an obvious deviation from this core truth of personal free will and choice and the reality of cosmic relationships which preclude and prevent any such threat to being as presented by him…and poor choice of terms and analogies presented.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Bradly wrote: To think or say or especially “teach” anything else is pure heresy and contrary to the teachings in the Divine gift of the Revelation.
Well said Bradly. The mind can be mischievous, and therein lies the danger to self-appointed teachers. But I still feel that establishing an orthodoxy and ordaining teachers is risky business. In a way, I think we’re all learning more from recognizing a misinterpretation and discovering the facts for ourselves. No one should swallow someone else’s interpretation whole. It needs to be chewed up and that is what we are doing here . . . a lot of chewing. It’s work, but worthwhile I think.
But, I still can’t find anything about Master Physical Controllers intervening in disputes or threats of any kind between individuals. And why would there be a physical-type threat to only angels? Wouldn’t the liaison forces have also overlapped their negative energies (forces) to destroy Van and Amadon? If they did, then the Master Physical Controllers must have intervened there too. And if they intervened on the planet, then why didn’t they intervene during world wars?
And why didn’t they combine all of their liaison forces to try to physically destroy Jesus? Jesus met with Satan as a man, not a Creator Son. Read what happened below. It sounds like a mind game of specious proposals, counterproposals, compromises and makeshifts. Satan was bargaining and conniving. Nothing physical happened, and if we believe Chris and Scott, there should have been a liaison of forces attempting to destroy him with overlapping negative energies intimately disrupting him from within.
134:8.6-8 Near the end of the mountain sojourn Jesus asked his Father if he might be permitted to hold conference with his Satania enemies as the Son of Man, as Joshua ben Joseph. This request was granted. During the last week on Mount Hermon the great temptation, the universe trial, occurred. Satan (representing Lucifer) and the rebellious Planetary Prince, Caligastia, were present with Jesus and were made fully visible to him. And this “temptation,” this final trial of human loyalty in the face of the misrepresentations of rebel personalities, had not to do with food, temple pinnacles, or presumptuous acts. It had not to do with the kingdoms of this world but with the sovereignty of a mighty and glorious universe. The symbolism of your records was intended for the backward ages of the world’s childlike thought. And subsequent generations should understand what a great struggle the Son of Man passed through that eventful day on Mount Hermon.
To the many proposals and counterproposals of the emissaries of Lucifer, Jesus only made reply: “May the will of my Paradise Father prevail, and you, my rebellious son, may the Ancients of Days judge you divinely. I am your Creator-father; I can hardly judge you justly, and my mercy you have already spurned. I commit you to the adjudication of the Judges of a greater universe.”
To all the Lucifer-suggested compromises and makeshifts, to all such specious proposals about the incarnation bestowal, Jesus only made reply, “The will of my Father in Paradise be done.” And when the trying ordeal was finished, the detached guardian seraphim returned to Jesus‘ side and ministered to him.
This particular celestial author is JUST AS GUILTY AS CHRIS of ‘speculation.’
It’s one thing for celestials to speculate about the future and another thing for a human to speculate about a celestial’s ability to violate another individual. There is no danger in speculating about the future of the Corps of the Finality. But there is massive danger in allowing mortals to believe that they are in danger of being violated by superior, unseen beings. Jesus came here to dispel fear of the superior and unseen. It would be undoing the work of our Sovereign. I think that is a REALLY BIG DEAL, and worth condemnation.
Speculation is not “teaching” that any being is susceptible to being violated by any other being….that’s not speculation – that’s a pure distortion. There are both facts presented in the UB and truths….Chris presented neither but, rather, contradicts – profoundly and elementally and fundamentally – the Revelation by teaching such fear based theology. Are we sanctified and protected in our selfhood and free will or not? Of course we are! And the angels and midwayers and Staff and Lucifer and Caligastia – all of us and each of us, not matter our station or progress, is an inviolate free will with mind and personality to CHOOSE our own destiny. That choice is THE danger for all and no liaison of any sort can diminish, let alone destroy, that choice. Chris says otherwise in this nonsensical interpretation that appears so clearly wrong in the context of this fundamental FACT. It is true though, perhaps, that he’s right about everything else he teaches…..wouldn’t know and don’t have an opinion until more is presented. But this presentation of falsehoods is enough for me for now. Nothing personal….just a profoundly different belief in this core teaching and a personal rejection of his delusional confusions around such an obvious deviation from this core truth of personal free will and choice and the reality of cosmic relationships which preclude and prevent any such threat to being as presented by him…and poor choice of terms and analogies presented.
Bradly, how did he teach fear? He said that the rebels were deluded with the idea they could pull off a rape; rape is not a reality in the celestial realms. Where is the fear, Bradly? Certainly he is not telling anyone that they possibly could be raped when they enter the mansion world in the event of a rebellion. I didn’t feel a scintilla of fear after hearing that these celestials thought they could commit rape. In fact, what I took from Chris’ teaching was a bunch of deluded rebels who thought they could pull off the most far fetched and outrageous act in the universe. I think Chris’ teaching on this particular topic is harmless.
When did you hear Chris claim to be an ‘expert’?
BB
