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Need clarification on the rebellion papers…

278 posts · 10 participants · started Aug 22, 2014, 2:00 AM

Brooklyn_bornParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 1:03 AM

Bradly wrote:

So then, “liaison” is now become “possession”? Please note the quote you provide BB: “They shall no more molest men …”. So Chris and Scott are saying or meaning to say that celestial minds, specifically angels in this example, are susceptible to “possession” by other angels or by Sons or by any other mind? This is the liaison factor? I look forward to actual text in support of such an assertion. Please recall that even before Pentacost, such an “invasion” was not an invasion nor was it a liaison of multiple personalities in-league or conspiracy. Hmmmm…..something doesn’t smell right here to me in context of the text itself. You say “Chris has uncovered…”. I find this very interesting and not a little troubling as well. I have always found the text quite self-expressive and redundant and clarifying in its words….I don’t believe there are hidden meanings or codes to unravel nor any need for interpretations. So I remain skeptical to the claims and find the peer pressure for agreement leading to self destruction adequate….not that the peers believed they were wrong as they were convinced I think by their position and were so compelled to convince others as to their rightness….much as we do here I think. I am not entrenched here BB but I remain quite dubious that angels are subject to mind possession and that some conspiracy of “energy” or other personalities can invade the inviolate functionality of self determination and free will. We shall see what Scott and Chris have to say on the subject. In any case, another very interesting question you have asked requiring both deep thinking and research in response.

Admittedly I am speculating, Bradly. I apologize if I caused confusion. For the record I do not speak on Chris’ behalf nor can I speak with authority on the corpus of his scholarly works. I am relatively new to Chris’ teachings. Scott put me onto him two years ago. As a matter of opinion, I find Chris’ understanding of TUB exceptional. I do not recall in any of Chris’ webinars that I have sat in on where he has gone over this particular rebellion event. So I can’t speak to his lesson on it. But Scott knows of the lesson so we will have to wait for his response.

My post is just me trying to figure out Scott’s/Chris’ angle. I made the connection based on the word “rape” and “molest.” I was connecting dots, so to speak. Again, I apologize for any confusion.

BB
Brooklyn_bornParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 1:12 AM
Bradly, I used creative language (uncovered) to express the fact that not always will you find information/revelation in the literal rendering of text. I believe the literal words can act as a springboard into revelation TA imparts. Also I do not think anyone is saying possession of evil spirit is a reality, post-Pentecost. And one more note, angels are not immune to delusion or sophistry. They can believe in the impossible and attempt to attain it. The rebellion is a perfect example. So just because evil spirits no longer can possess the mind does not mean they are unable to make the attempt.

BB
BonitaParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 1:48 AM
Possession of the mind by so-called evil spirits prior to Pentecost involved only humans. Rebel midwayers were capable of causing mischief only in feeble and inferior human minds. Prior to Pentecost there is nothing at all mentioned about possession of human minds by any entity other than midwayers, and there is no mention at all of beings other than humans being victims of their mischief. That being said, all the rebel midwayers are in custody. And to the point, Manotia was not human nor was her mind feeble or inferior.
AnonymousInactive
Sep 12, 2014, 1:58 AM
It may not be possible for an unwilling person to be possessed by evil spirits but according to the Urantia Book it was possible at one time.

(863.8) 77:7.7 Even prior to Pentecost no rebel spirit could dominate a normal human mind, and since that day even the weak minds of inferior mortals are free from such possibilities. The supposed casting out of devils since the arrival of the Spirit of Truth has been a matter of confounding a belief in demoniacal possession with hysteria, insanity, and feeble-mindedness. But just because Michael’s bestowal has forever liberated all human minds on Urantia from the possibility of demoniacal possession, do not imagine that such was not a reality in former ages.
TUBParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 4:15 AM
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/symmetryofsoul/2013/03/13/the-betrayal-begins-on-high-part-2

To hear Chris talk about this paragraph skip to the 98 minute mark, he talks about this line until almost the 103 minute mark.

@BB thanks man, I take long breaks from listening to Chris, I can only handle so much Urantia Book at once. I try and pace myself so I haven’t listened to any of his Friday sessions. I just go through his SOS shows every once and a while.
Brooklyn_bornParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 9:40 AM
Okay, I listened to the audio (thanks, Scott, for supplying the link) and I think Chris presents a compelling argument on what he believes “liaison forces” is and how it applies to the particular rebellion event. Instead of giving you secondary source explanation it is better that you hear it directly from Chris. Fast forward the audio to frame 98:00 where he begins to expound on Manotia’s experience with the rebellion.

BB
BradlyParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 12:58 PM
I am anxious to hear this but having trouble with my device. Regardless, I must apologize for putting words into other’s mouths and being far too presumptuous regarding other’s positions on the subject….my bad. Chris and Scott and you BB certainly deserve the courtesy of at least speaking for your self (and I’ll find a way to hear Chris if I have to listen to 98 minutes prior to the topic at hand). In the mean time, I’ll await further discussion and text on this topic of those influences of liaison and the sources of danger to the “loyals” as described in the UB. I am here to learn, not argue an entrenched position or my own prejudice….or I should be anyway. Peace.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Brooklyn_bornParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 1:20 PM

Bradly wrote:

I am anxious to hear this but having trouble with my device. Regardless, I must apologize for putting words into other’s mouths and being far too presumptuous regarding other’s positions on the subject….my bad. Chris and Scott and you BB certainly deserve the courtesy of at least speaking for your self (and I’ll find a way to hear Chris if I have to listen to 98 minutes prior to the topic at hand). In the mean time, I’ll await further discussion and text on this topic of those influences of liaison and the sources of danger to the “loyals” as described in the UB. I am here to learn, not argue an entrenched position or my own prejudice….or I should be anyway. Peace.

I will provide a transcription of it. Give me a few…

BB
BonitaParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 1:28 PM

TUB wrote:

To hear Chris talk about this paragraph skip to the 98 minute mark, he talks about this line until almost the 103 minute mark.

It’s so sad to hear such a great mind go completely off the rails. What a pity.
Brooklyn_bornParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 1:51 PM
My stenography skill is wanting lmao! I was unable to catch anything. He speaks fast. Sorry, Bradly. I hope you get your audio player fixed.

BB
BonitaParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 2:53 PM
Brad,

My stenography skills are excellent. I will email the transcription to you because I’m not sure of the copyright rules concerning this. It’ll blow your mind.
BradlyParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 3:05 PM
Got it BB…different device and faster service. Must confess confusion still. The “overlapping” energies and forces, the term “rape” as applied to mindal invasion of some form. The topic didn’t receive any real depth or correaltion with other text but I also did not hear any declarations that Manotia’s mind or any other was possessed or any faced any form of bodily harm. What I heard seems to me to corroborate my speculations that the danger did lay within the decision itself and not from any other party or potential power of any other. Chris did not spend much, or any, time trying to define the “liaison” issue to any definitive conclusions of the factors, beings, or energies actually so engaged.

I did like the self delusional aspect presented however. Chris appears to claim there never was any actual or factual “danger” possible as a form of personal annihilation or mind invasion by one party of any other party. Did you get that? Or is that just my interpretation? The text says there was a liaison of some sort. The term has multiple definitions. I am disappointed Chris chose the sexual tryst form of the word and just left it hanging without regard to other potential uses or definitions of the term. Oh well. Thanks for the link. Hasn’t changed my perspective and didn’t appear to me to actually be in any opposition to my perspective. I simply found it droll and lacking scholarship and extension to other text which might help us ponder more fully the question you posed BB. Back to the Book……..!!!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 3:56 PM
Oh . . . glad I checked before hitting send on the email. So you got to listen to it then, Brad? Personally, I’m more than disappointed in it. I think it’s dangerous. And, what was all that gobbledegook about Master Physical Controllers preventing “goof-head angels” from having a negative liaison with someone? Is that written somewhere? I must have missed it. And how does he know that it’s “really cool” and “very intimate” to overlap energy systems, which if done without permission “would be called rape”? To say such a thing gives the impression that it’s been personally experienced. Did he have a really cool and intimate energy system overlap with a spiritual being, with or without permission? Otherwise, how would he know? Weird. Really weird, and utterly useless in my opinion. Again, I’ve learned nothing and others are being misled into thinking that spiritual beings procreate or cocreate at random by overlapping their energies and that spirit beings can rape each other, and that there can be a physical type destruction by negative energies unless saved by the Master Physical Controllers . . . such nonsense! Seems to me as though the revelation is being rewritten again. Bunkum tommyrot.
Brooklyn_bornParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 4:21 PM
Let me preface by stating for the record that I am not endorsing Chris’ innovation on the Manotia’ rebellion incident. However, I am open to the idea that Chris’ narrative to the event possibly could be correct in whole or in part. It needs to be explored further.

Bradly wrote:

Must confess confusion still. The “overlapping” energies and forces, the term “rape” as applied to mindal invasion of some form.

I cannot explain what he means, definitively, but he may be drawing from the fact of nonsexual union and the overlapping of celestial beings during the process…

“…and they carefully explored every imaginable phase of intellectual (mind) and morontia (soul) liaison. And it was during the thirty-third year of their sojourn in Dalamatia, long before the wall was completed, that number two and number seven of the Danite group accidentally discovered a phenomenon attendant upon the liaison of their morontia selves (supposedly nonsexual and nonmaterial); and the result of this adventure proved to be the first of the primary midway creatures.”

The topic didn’t receive any real depth or correaltion with other text but I also did not hear any declarations that Manotia’s mind or any other was possessed or any faced any form of bodily harm.

As I explained in a previous post, the idea of daemonic possession was speculation on my part in an effort to figure out what Scott briefly hinted to regarding rape. After listening to the audio, Chris’ explanation of the event has nothing to do with daemonic possession. Chris states that the rebellion originally was a philosophical battle, but that there could have been an effort to make it physical.

What I heard seems to me to corroborate my speculations that the danger did lay within the decision itself and not from any other party or potential power of any other.

Chris theorizes that energy is three fold; beings are made of energy forms –three fold-composite nature; mindal, spiritual and material. Further, he states that according to the papers, we must learn the proper etiquette of those energy systems, whether morontial, spiritual or material. And that it is possible for beings to overlap these system between each other via ‘liaison’. I SUSPECT he draws this idea from the narrative on superhuman, nonsexual unions where morontia and mindal systems overlap (66:4.10)

Chris did not spend much, or any, time trying to define the “liaison” issue to any definitive conclusions of the factors, beings, or energies actually so engaged.

I believe the ‘liaison’ issue is settled in the overlapping of energy systems of celestial beings, which I suspect he draws from the nonsexual union narrative.

Chris appears to claim there never was any actual or factual “danger” possible as a form of personal annihilation or mind invasion by one party of any other party. Did you get that?

I agree. He does not suggest the idea that the goal was to annihilate a soul. But definitely he infers that these rebels meant to do harm.

The text says there was a liaison of some sort. The term has multiple definitions.

Indeed there are multiple definitions to the term. However, I think how the rebellion transpires on Urantia may shed light on its unraveling on the system capital and vice-versa; sort of like following similar plans. But of course this is me speculating which has no bearing on what Chris had in mind.

I simply found it droll and lacking scholarship and extension to other text which might help us ponder more fully the question you posed BB. Back to the Book……..!!!

I would assume that he divulges extensive information on his paid subscription channel compared to what he shares on the free channel, to his defense.

This is one of those dicey topics

BB
Brooklyn_bornParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 4:34 PM

Bonita wrote:

Oh . . . glad I checked before hitting send on the email. So you got to listen to it then, Brad? Personally, I’m more than disappointed in it. I think it’s dangerous. And, what was all that gobbledegook about Master Physical Controllers preventing “goof-head angels” from having a negative liaison with someone? Is that written somewhere? I must have missed it. And how does he know that it’s “really cool” and “very intimate” to overlap energy systems, which if done without permission “would be called rape”? To say such a thing gives the impression that it’s been personally experienced. Did he have a really cool and intimate energy system overlap with a spiritual being, with or without permission? Otherwise, how would he know? Weird. Really weird, and utterly useless in my opinion. Again, I’ve learned nothing and others are being misled into thinking that spiritual beings procreate or cocreate at random by overlapping their energies and that spirit beings can rape each other, and that there can be a physical type destruction by negative energies unless saved by the Master Physical Controllers . . . such nonsense! Seems to me as though the revelation is being rewritten again. Bunkum tommyrot.

If what you say is true, Bonita, and I concede that it is possible that you are right about Chris’ interpretation as being completely off, what is the danger?

BB
TUBParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 5:00 PM
BB Chris has stated that if you have a theory of something in TUB it should hold up to every line in the book. He has has written about using this scientific method and he uses it himself. If what he says is true than it should fit with the context of the revelation. Look at how the authors use the word liaison in the book. We know that we fuse with our adjuster right? And that we are intimately connected to the adjuster, is there not an intimate overlapping going on of man and adjuster? We can be in liaison with the adjuster. Bonita hasn’t offered any other suggestion for the word liaison because nothing else fits within the context of the revelation. Chris discovered how the word liaison fits with the context of the revelation now lets go through the revelation and see if his definition fits with the whole book.

Also midwayers where in fact produced by nonsex liaison. The authors even tell us that this was a Soul liaison. The princes staff are former human beings who were engaged in a liaison of their souls with each other. So if they can do it so can we.

^(744.9) ^66:4.10 In conformity to their instructions the staff did not engage in sexual reproduction, but they did painstakingly study their personal constitutions, and they carefully explored every imaginable phase of intellectual (mind) and morontia (soul) liaison. And it was during the thirty-third year of their sojourn in Dalamatia, long before the wall was completed, that number two and number seven of the Danite group accidentally discovered a phenomenon attendant upon the liaison of their morontia selves (supposedly nonsexual and nonmaterial); and the result of this adventure proved to be the first of the primary midway creatures. This new being was wholly visible to the planetary staff and to their celestial associates but was not visible to the men and women of the various human tribes. Upon authority of the Planetary Prince the entire corporeal staff undertook the production of similar beings, and all were successful, following the instructions of the pioneer Danite pair. Thus did the Prince’s staff eventually bring into being the original corps of 50,000 primary midwayers.

^862.6) ^77:6.2 Among the children of Adamson there were just sixteen of the peculiar progenitors of the secondary midwayers. These unique children were equally divided as regards sex, and each couple was capable of producing a secondary midwayer every seventy days by a combined technique of sex and nonsex liaison. And such a phenomenon was never possible on earth before that time, nor has it ever occurred since.

^(855.4) ^77:1.2 . A supermaterial (nonsexual) liaison of a male and a female member of the corporeal staff resulted in the appearance of the first-born of the primary midwayers.

^(1197.3) ^109:3.1 The character of the detailed work of Mystery Monitors varies in accordance with the nature of their assignments, as to whether or not they are liaison or fusion Adjusters.

118:9.3 The life mechanism of the mortal personality, the human body, is the product of supermortal creative design; therefore it can never be perfectly controlled by man himself. Only when ascending man, in liaison with the fused Adjuster, self-creates the mechanism for personality expression, will he achieve perfected control thereof.

^(1234.1) ^112:5.12 There is something real, something of human evolution, something additional to the Mystery Monitor, which survives death. This newly appearing entity is the soul, and it survives the death of both your physical body and your material mind. This entity is the conjoint child of the combined life and efforts of the human you in liaison with the divine you, the Adjuster. This child of human and divine parentage constitutes the surviving element of terrestrial origin; it is the morontia self, the immortal soul.

^(1213.1) ^110:7.6 But with the vast majority of Urantians the Adjuster must patiently await the arrival of death deliverance; must await the liberation of the emerging soul from the well-nigh complete domination of the energy patterns and chemical forces inherent in your material order of existence. The chief difficulty you experience in contacting with your Adjusters consists in this very inherent material nature. So few mortals are real thinkers; you do not spiritually develop and discipline your minds to the point of favorable liaison with the divine Adjusters. The ear of the human mind is almost deaf to the spiritual pleas which the Adjuster translates from the manifold messages of the universal broadcasts of love proceeding from the Father of mercies. The Adjuster finds it almost impossible to register these inspiring spirit leadings in an animal mind so completely dominated by the chemical and electrical forces inherent in your physical natures.
BradlyParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 5:09 PM
Thanks for your comments and reply BB…glad we heard the same thing, at least mostly, as it gives foundation to our reflection and consideration of your original questions. I’ll let Bonita speak for herself….but a couple of potential dangers IMO include the presumption by any student that Chris has a corner on perspective and meaning and the student “accepts” conclusions by confusions; but most dangerous to me is your valid point that perhaps “he divulges extensive information on his paid subscription channel compared to what he shares” for free.

While you say this in his defense, I find this one enormous red flag. Remember his warning about demagogs? Did you know that Scientology gives more truth and status according to what you are willing to pay for it? So my hope is you are wrong and that Chris does not discriminate his message by his income…but something to consider. Now as to the first danger, how much more dangerous do you think it is when one pays for knowledge than when it is free? I mean, inherently we wish and will for that which we pay for to have value, even to the point of the blind eye syndrome or blind acceptance. He said it, I paid to hear it, therefor it must be true. Don’t know. Something smells in Denmark.

Of all the definitions available – including the more military definition of liaison – the connectivity between groups with a mission or desired outcome – as an obviously more relevant definition than illicit sexual affairs (and how do we get from there to mind rape anyway? What the heck is that besides a diminishment of that brutal and violent and very physical reality that females endure at the hands of monsters? Very, very poor taste and a very irrelevant, even nonsensical, use of the word itself IMO – I found it to be in bad taste and off target, assuming I could understand what the target even was, which I did not – but rape is hardly any form of liaison even in its sexual conotation. Don’t get it…but didn’t like it.).

However, all that aside, I was disappointed in the lack of information that actually touches upon your interesting query here. Back to the Book…..!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
TUBParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 5:13 PM
Brad what do you think is going on in this paragraph? Do you really believe that these two beings peer pressured each other and magically a midwayer appeared?

^(744.9) ^66:4.10 In conformity to their instructions the staff did not engage in sexual reproduction, but they did painstakingly study their personal constitutions, and they carefully explored every imaginable phase of intellectual (mind) and morontia (soul) liaison. And it was during the thirty-third year of their sojourn in Dalamatia, long before the wall was completed, that number two and number seven of the Danite group accidentally discovered a phenomenon attendant upon the liaison of their morontia selves (supposedly nonsexual and nonmaterial)

Obviously there is some intimate contact between two souls going on in order to produce a midwayer. Sorry guys but Chris’ interpretation fits perfectly within the context of the revelation. I mean we don’t even need Chris to figure this one out, its trivially obvious how the authors are using the word liaison here.
BradlyParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 5:34 PM
http://www.urantia.org/search/book_search/liaison

The link above lists many, many pages of text wherein the word liaison appears. It is used in many forms of definition. Scott, what do those quotes you provide have to do with Manotia or rape or a sexual tryst? I think Chris spoke off the cuff and may well regret his analogy and terminology…or I hope so. I will go along with your “intimate” contact description as a form of mind pressure or attraction or persuasion. Leaves a long distance to mind invasion or physical danger though. The danger lay in the decision or choice. Can’t find anything at all in text to even suggest otherwise….and Chris seems to agree – Manotia was never in any danger that was imposed by any other or by any liaison. Nothing trivial or obvious here yet to me.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
TUBParticipant
Sep 12, 2014, 5:41 PM
Brad, so soul liaison which can produce a midwayer is just some sort of attraction or persuasion? That makes absolutely no sense. Something very literal has to happen in order for there to be a midwayer, a midwayer cannot magically come from a attraction, or persuasion. With soul liaison there is a overlapping of 2 morontia selves, there is a literal intimate interaction (liaison) taking place between two beings. They are passed the point of attraction or persuasion if they are making babies. A midwayer cannot spring from thin air magically there has to be some literal place for it to come from. Nothing in the universe happens magically.

Yes the word liaison is used many times but it is still used in the same way. There can be a overlapping of physical energies, mental energies or spiritual energies. So the word liaison is going to come up a lot because there is a lot of mixing of energies in the universe.

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