↗ Live site
Preview: a read-only copy of the forum. To post or reply, use the current forum.

Need clarification on the rebellion papers…

278 posts · 10 participants · started Aug 22, 2014, 2:00 AM

  1. BB Chris has stated that if you have a theory of something in TUB it should hold up to every line in the book. He has has written about using this scientific method and he uses it himself. If what he says is true than it should fit with the context of the revelation. Look at how the authors use the word liaison in the book. We know that we fuse with our adjuster right? And that we are intimately connected to the adjuster, is there not an intimate overlapping going on of man and adjuster? We can be in liaison with the adjuster. Bonita hasn’t offered any other suggestion for the word liaison because nothing else fits within the context of the revelation. Chris discovered how the word liaison fits with the context of the revelation now lets go through the revelation and see if his definition fits with the whole book. Also midwayers where in fact produced by nonsex liaison. The authors even tell us that this was a Soul liaison. The princes staff are former human beings who were engaged in a liaison of their souls with each other. So if they can do it so can we. (744.9) 66:4.10 In conformity to their instructions the staff did not engage in sexual reproduction, but they did painstakingly study their personal constitutions, and they carefully explored every imaginable phase of intellectual (mind) and morontia (soul) liaison. And it was during the thirty-third year of their sojourn in Dalamatia, long before the wall was completed, that number two and number seven of the Danite group accidentally discovered a phenomenon attendant upon the liaison of their morontia selves (supposedly nonsexual and nonmaterial); and the result of this adventure proved to be the first of the primary midway creatures. This new being was wholly visible to the planetary staff and to their celestial associates but was not visible to the men and women of the various human tribes. Upon authority of the Planetary Prince the entire corporeal staff undertook the production of similar beings, and all were successful, following the instructions of the pioneer Danite pair. Thus did the Prince’s staff eventually bring into being the original corps of 50,000 primary midwayers. 862.6) 77:6.2 Among the children of Adamson there were just sixteen of the peculiar progenitors of the secondary midwayers. These unique children were equally divided as regards sex, and each couple was capable of producing a secondary midwayer every seventy days by a combined technique of sex and nonsex liaison. And such a phenomenon was never possible on earth before that time, nor has it ever occurred since. (855.4) 77:1.2 . A supermaterial (nonsexual) liaison of a male and a female member of the corporeal staff resulted in the appearance of the first-born of the primary midwayers. (1197.3) 109:3.1 The character of the detailed work of Mystery Monitors varies in accordance with the nature of their assignments, as to whether or not they are liaison or fusion Adjusters. 118:9.3 The life mechanism of the mortal personality, the human body, is the product of supermortal creative design; therefore it can never be perfectly controlled by man himself. Only when ascending man, in liaison with the fused Adjuster, self-creates the mechanism for personality expression, will he achieve perfected control thereof. (1234.1) 112:5.12 There is something real, something of human evolution, something additional to the Mystery Monitor, which survives death. This newly appearing entity is the soul, and it survives the death of both your physical body and your material mind. This entity is the conjoint child of the combined life and efforts of the human you in liaison with the divine you, the Adjuster. This child of human and divine parentage constitutes the surviving element of terrestrial origin; it is the morontia self, the immortal soul. (1213.1) 110:7.6 But with the vast majority of Urantians the Adjuster must patiently await the arrival of death deliverance; must await the liberation of the emerging soul from the well-nigh complete domination of the energy patterns and chemical forces inherent in your material order of existence. The chief difficulty you experience in contacting with your Adjusters consists in this very inherent material nature. So few mortals are real thinkers; you do not spiritually develop and discipline your minds to the point of favorable liaison with the divine Adjusters. The ear of the human mind is almost deaf to the spiritual pleas which the Adjuster translates from the manifold messages of the universal broadcasts of love proceeding from the Father of mercies. The Adjuster finds it almost impossible to register these inspiring spirit leadings in an animal mind so completely dominated by the chemical and electrical forces inherent in your physical natures.

    I am aware of Chris’ position on how concepts or innovations should withstand the test of TUB line by line scrutiny to confirm them. Also I am nearly persuaded with the liaison context he uses, as it is frequently related to intimate unions; I am very opened to the idea Chris puts forward as it has a ring of truth to it. But I feel he needs to be develop the idea further (assuming Chris has not done so). This concept will be met with fierce resistance, as already was displayed on this stream. It is a foreign concept; and when people are set in their way or thought pattern, it will be extremely difficult to open them up to foreign or new concepts –Human psychology 101.

    I really would like to see Chris present a scholarly paper on this topic (assuming he has not done so).

    BB

  2. I know what you mean BB. I am sure if someone asked him to explain more he would. He has talked about liaison in other parts of the symmetryofsoul broadcast that is not the first time he has brought up liaison. So part of the problem is, is that you guys are listening to him years into the broadcast. Those broadcasts are meant to build off each other. Its just like if you were to go to school and start half way through the words coming out of the teachers mouth would sound somewhat foreign at times because you missed the rest from previous classes.

  3. Thanks for your comments and reply BB…glad we heard the same thing, at least mostly, as it gives foundation to our reflection and consideration of your original questions. I’ll let Bonita speak for herself….but a couple of potential dangers IMO include the presumption by any student that Chris has a corner on perspective and meaning and the student “accepts” conclusions by confusions; but most dangerous to me is your valid point that perhaps “he divulges extensive information on his paid subscription channel compared to what he shares” for free. While you say this in his defense, I find this one enormous red flag. Remember his warning about demagogs? Did you know that Scientology gives more truth and status according to what you are willing to pay for it? So my hope is you are wrong and that Chris does not discriminate his message by his income…but something to consider. Now as to the first danger, how much more dangerous do you think it is when one pays for knowledge than when it is free? I mean, inherently we wish and will for that which we pay for to have value, even to the point of the blind eye syndrome or blind acceptance. He said it, I paid to hear it, therefor it must be true. Don’t know. Something smells in Denmark. Of all the definitions available – including the more military definition of liaison – the connectivity between groups with a mission or desired outcome – as an obviously more relevant definition than illicit sexual affairs (and how do we get from there to mind rape anyway? What the heck is that besides a diminishment of that brutal and violent and very physical reality that females endure at the hands of monsters? Very, very poor taste and a very irrelevant, even nonsensical, use of the word itself IMO – I found it to be in bad taste and off target, assuming I could understand what the target even was, which I did not – but rape is hardly any form of liaison even in its sexual conotation. Don’t get it…but didn’t like it.). However, all that aside, I was disappointed in the lack of information that actually touches upon your interesting query here. Back to the Book…..! :good:

    Maybe the word rape is too strong for this particular situation. Personally I think Chris is very intelligent and has a strong grasp of TUB that is unrivaled. But that is my opinion. I have to agree with  you about the pay vs. unpaid subscription. That should raise red flags.

    BB

  4. Brad: The paid subscription is for donations or to enter his school. He spends his entire life running a school, so he asks for a small fee to enter it (I think its around 200 dollars). He is devoting his entire life now to this school so any donations help him to eat and function as a human being so that he can do this for a living. You can get all his material without paying for anything, you don’t actually have to have a paid subscription to read the stuff on his website and attend his Friday sessions or his SOS shows. I have never given him a dime and I have access to all his material on his website and I can attend all this study groups.

    So no there is no “hidden information”. Its easy for people on the internet who can hide behind a screen to judge others.

  5. If what you say is true, Bonita, and I  concede that it is possible that you are right about Chris’ interpretation as being completely off, what is the danger?

    The danger is a misunderstanding of the revelation by a teacher who then teaches others his misunderstanding, then gullible students accept the misunderstanding and pass it on again and again.  We’ve been suffering for two thousand years over Peter’s misinterpretation of the gospel when he taught the gospel about Jesus rather than the gospel of Jesus. It was a huge misunderstanding with huge consequences witnessed even today.  Already Scott believes in spiritual rape and the so-called overlapping energies of non-sex procreation.  Some may even believe that Physical Controllers can ward off evil. It’s all wrong and it’s dangerous. Error begets error which then snowballs out of control until everything is all bolluxed up and we need a new revelation to straighten it out.

  6. Hi Scott…just to be clear – I have not accused Chris of any impropriety and tuition to cover costs and even make a living is not unusual.  No problem.  I said it would be a problem if nonpayers got one level of teachings while payers received another…and did not claim this to be the case.  Thanks for the clarification.  Nontheless, my point about paying for knowledge creating an acceptance bias remains.  And so does a solo educational experience.  No checks and balances.  I find the model problematic and one’s vocation or way to make a living as a form of dissemination I also reject.  He’s a hired educator and teacher….not a disseminator IMO.  He needs to be right in the eyes of his “students”, his living depends upon it.   I’m still reading further and considering your many points on the subject at hand.  Your off handed inclusion of “rape” here out of all context kinda got this ball rolling.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  7. If what you say is true, Bonita, and I concede that it is possible that you are right about Chris’ interpretation as being completely off, what is the danger?

    The danger is a misunderstanding of the revelation by a teacher who then teaches others his misunderstanding, then gullible students accept the misunderstanding and pass it on again and again. We’ve been suffering for two thousand years over Peter’s misinterpretation of the gospel when he taught the gospel about Jesus rather than the gospel of Jesus. It was a huge misunderstanding with huge consequences witnessed even today. Already Scott believes in spiritual rape and the so-called overlapping energies of non-sex procreation. Some may even believe that Physical Controllers can ward off evil. It’s all wrong and it’s dangerous. Error begets error which then snowballs out of control until everything is all bolluxed up and we need a new revelation to straighten it out.

     

    Do you think the belief in ‘celestial rape’ puts a person’s soul in  jeopardy?  Could you expand on ‘error’?  Would error include mere beliefs that really don’t have any influence on social behaviort? Thanks.

     

     

    BB

  8. TUB wrote:  Bonita hasn’t offered any other suggestion for the word liaison because nothing else fits within the context of the revelation.

    Maybe you didn’t read the beginning of this thread where I wrote this:

    Bonita wrote:  The war was a war of ideas.  The liaison forces were nothing more than compelling arguments by brilliant minds who were trying to force their ideas on others.  It is our thoughts which lead us Godward, and erroneous thinking leads to erroneous behavior.  Erroneous behavior, when persistent, leads to destruction of one’s harmony with the cosmos.  Loss of harmony with the cosmos results in isolation and isolation is tantamount to destruction.
    TUB wrote: We know that we fuse with our adjuster right? And that we are intimately connected to the adjuster,  is there not an intimate overlapping going on of man and adjuster?
    Liaison Adjusters do not fuse with the mortal they indwell. (109:3.1)  A fusion Adjuster does not overlap anything upon fusion.  The Adjuster actually translates from the absolute existential level to the finite experiential level of the fusion candidate (107:2.7).  It’s not called overlapping, it’s called translation, a conversion from one universe level to another in order for union to take place.  Overlap means to extend over, to cover, to partly coincide in time or place, none of which explains fusion.  Overlapping means that there are still two separate entities covering one another.  With fusion the two become one.

    TUB wrote: The authors even tell us that this was a Soul liaison.
    It doesn’t say that at all.  The quote says that they tried soul liaison which didn’t work.  What did work was a liaison with their morontia selves.  Morontia self and morontia soul are not necessarily the same thing.  Also, there is nothing at all said about overlapping energies . . . no overlapping at all.  Liaison simply means that they cooperated with one another in a relationship.  It was not sexual.  It says nothing of being intimate.  In fact, it clearly says that the whole thing was an accident, an oops, look what we made moment.
  9. Further, he states that according to the papers, we must learn the proper etiquette of those energy systems, whether morontial, spiritual or material.

    Where does it say that there is proper etiquette for energy systems?  Could you give the me quote?

  10. It doesn’t say that at all.  The quote says that they tried soul liaison which didn’t work.  What did work was a liaison with their morontia selves.  Morontia self and morontia soul are not necessarily the same thing.

     

     If I write out in a paper. I (supposedly) didn’t have a cookie for breakfast, someone reading that paper is going to assume that I had a cookie for breakfast. Its a common writing practice to write like this for added humorous effect.

     

    (744.9)66:4.10 In conformity to their instructions the staff did not engage in sexual reproduction, but they did painstakingly study their personal constitutions, and they carefully explored every imaginable phase of intellectual (mind) and morontia (soul) liaison. And it was during the thirty-third year of their sojourn in Dalamatia, long before the wall was completed, that number two and number seven of the Danite group accidentally discovered a phenomenon attendant upon the liaison of their morontia selves (supposedly nonsexual and nonmaterial);

     

    Also Your morontia self is your soul……

     

    6. The Morontia Self

    (1235.5)112:6.1 Just as a butterfly emerges from the caterpillar stage, so will the true personalities of human beings emerge on the mansion worlds, for the first time revealed apart from their onetime enshroudment in the material flesh. The morontia career in the local universe has to do with the continued elevation of the personality mechanism from the beginning morontia level of soul existence up to the final morontia level of progressive spirituality.

    (1235.6)112:6.2 It is difficult to instruct you regarding your morontia personality forms for the local universe career. You will be endowed with morontia patterns of personality manifestability, and these are investments which, in the last analysis, are beyond your comprehension. Such forms, while entirely real, are not energy patterns of the material order which you now understand. They do, however, serve the same purpose on the local universe worlds as do your material bodies on the planets of human nativity.

    (1236.1)112:6.3 To a certain extent, the appearance of the material body-form is responsive to the character of the personality identity; the physical body does, to a limited degree, reflect something of the inherent nature of the personality. Still more so does the morontia form. In the physical life, mortals may be outwardly beautiful though inwardly unlovely; in the morontia life, and increasingly on its higher levels, the personality form will vary directly in accordance with the nature of the inner person. On the spiritual level, outward form and inner nature begin to approximate complete identification, which grows more and more perfect on higher and higher spirit levels.

    (1236.2)112:6.4 In the morontia estate the ascending mortal is endowed with the Nebadon modification of the cosmic-mind endowment of the Master Spirit of Orvonton. The mortal intellect, as such, has perished, has ceased to exist as a focalized universe entity apart from the undifferentiated mind circuits of the Creative Spirit. But the meanings and values of the mortal mind have not perished. Certain phases of mind are continued in the surviving soul; certain experiential values of the former human mind are held by the Adjuster; and there persist in the local universe the records of the human life as it was lived in the flesh, together with certain living registrations in the numerous beings who are concerned with the final evaluation of the ascending mortal, beings extending in range from seraphim to Universal Censors and probably on beyond to the Supreme.

    (1236.3)112:6.5 Creature volition cannot exist without mind, but it does persist in spite of the loss of the material intellect. During the times immediately following survival, the ascending personality is in great measure guided by the character patterns inherited from the human life and by the newly appearing action of morontia mota. And these guides to mansonia conduct function acceptably in the early stages of the morontia life and prior to the emergence of morontia will as a full-fledged volitional expression of the ascending personality.

    (1236.4)112:6.6 There are no influences in the local universe career comparable to the seven adjutant mind-spirits of human existence. The morontia mind must evolve by direct contact with cosmic mind, as this cosmic mind has been modified and translated by the creative source of local universe intellect — the Divine Minister.

    (1236.5)112:6.7 Mortal mind, prior to death, is self-consciously independent of the Adjuster presence; adjutant mind needs only the associated material-energy pattern to enable it to operate. But the morontia soul, being superadjutant, does not retain self-consciousness without the Adjuster when deprived of the material-mind mechanism. This evolving soul does, however, possess a continuing character derived from the decisions of its former associated adjutant mind, and this character becomes active memory when the patterns thereof are energized by the returning Adjuster.

    (1236.6)112:6.8 The persistence of memory is proof of the retention of the identity of original selfhood; it is essential to complete self-consciousness of personality continuity and expansion. Those mortals who ascend without Adjusters are dependent on the instruction of seraphic associates for the reconstruction of human memory; otherwise the morontia souls of the Spirit-fused mortals are not limited. The pattern of memory persists in the soul, but this pattern requires the presence of the former Adjuster to become immediately self-realizable as continuing memory. Without the Adjuster, it requires considerable time for the mortal survivor to re-explore and relearn, to recapture, the memory consciousness of the meanings and values of a former existence.

    (1237.1)112:6.9 The soul of survival value faithfully reflects both the qualitative and the quantitative actions and motivations of the material intellect, the former seat of the identity of selfhood. In the choosing of truth, beauty, and goodness, the mortal mind enters upon its premorontia universe career under the tutelage of the seven adjutant mind-spirits unified under the direction of the spirit of wisdom. Subsequently, upon the completion of the seven circles of premorontia attainment, the superimposition of the endowment of morontia mind upon adjutant mind initiates the prespiritual or morontia career of local universe progression.

    (1237.2)112:6.10 When a creature leaves his native planet, he leaves the adjutant ministry behind and becomes solely dependent on morontia intellect. When an ascender leaves the local universe, he has attained the spiritual level of existence, having passed beyond the morontia level. This newly appearing spirit entity then becomes attuned to the direct ministry of the cosmic mind of Orvonton.

    So Bonita you think that some ” liaison thinking”  lead to the creation of Midwayers? That makes no sense at all. They just thought midwayers into existence? Lol, your definition doesn’t fit when you put it in the context of the book.

  11. TUB wrote:  Sorry guys but Chris’ interpretation fits perfectly within the context of the revelation. I mean we don’t even need Chris to figure this one out, its trivially obvious how the authors are using the word liaison here.
    Well I’m sorry too because the creation of midwayers has nothing at all to do with what happened to Manotia.  Nothing.  The phrase liaison forces was not referring to non-sex, non-material creation of another being.  The two ideas are not even related.  Chris said clearly that he was interpreting the word liaison to mean illicit liaison, which has to do with immoral sex.  If he had bothered to open a dictionary, he would have seen that there are other meanings of the word including a thickening agent in cooking.  Maybe the liaison forces were trying to harden Manotia’s heart with coagulated egg yolks . . . you laugh . . . but it’s just as ridiculous as overlapping energies trying to rape someone.
  12. Further, he states that according to the papers, we must learn the proper etiquette of those energy systems, whether morontial, spiritual or material.

    Where does it say that there is proper etiquette for energy systems? Could you give the me quote?

     

    I feel like I’m on the hot seat. Next time Im’a keep my mouth shut and not defend a position I am still researching! Lol  ;-)

    This is what I found. Not sure if it’s what Chris uses to support that position but it speaks about proper etiquette for the morontia.

     

    11 4. Co-ordinators and Liaison Directors.
    These companions are dedicated to the facilitation of morontia intercourse and to the prevention of confusion. They are the instructors of social conduct and  morontia progress, sponsoring classes and other group activities among the ascending mortals. They maintain extensive areas wherein they assemble their
    pupils and from time to time make requisition on the celestial artisans and the reversion directors for the embellishment of their programs. As you progress, you will come in intimate contact with these companions, and you will grow exceedingly fond of both groups. It is a matter of chance as to whether you will
    be associated with an aggressive or a retiring type of companion.

     

    BB

  13. TUB wrote:  Yes the word liaison is used many times but it is still used in the same way. There can be a overlapping of physical energies, mental energies or spiritual energies. So the word liaison is going to come up a lot because there is a lot of mixing of energies in the universe.

    So, according to you (and Chris, I guess), every time the word liaison shows up in the text it is referring to the overlapping of various energies. Is that right?

    What does this quote have to do with overlapping energies?  Wouldn’t you say that liaison, in this case, means  a person who acts to assist communication or cooperation between groups of beings?  There’s no mention of overlapping or of energies.  There’s no non-sex trysts going on here, just counseling and advising.  

    18:6.1 The Trinity personalities of the order of “Days” do not function in an administrative capacity below the level of the superuniverse governments. In the evolving local universes they act only as counselors and advisers. The Unions of Days are a group of liaison personalities accredited by the Paradise Trinity to the dual rulers of the local universes. Each organized and inhabited local universe has assigned to it one of these Paradise counselors, who acts as the representative of the Trinity, and in some respects, of the Universal Father, to the local creation.

     

  14. Brooklyn_born wrote: This is what I found. Not sure if it’s what Chris uses to support that position but it speaks about proper etiquette for the morontia.

    The quote is talking about social conduct conducive to the avoidance of confusion so to facilitate intercourse, where intercourse means communication and fellowship.  It has nothing at all to do with overlapping energies, non-sex procreation or learning how not to force people to join a rebellion.

  15. I agree that this was probably a war of ideas. In 53:5.6, Lucifer “held forth continuously in the planetary amphitheater.” So, he persisted to be present in a public place where all who wanted to hear his ideas could possibly be swayed to his side. Meanwhile, Gabriel “conducted an unceasing exposure of the rebel sophistries from his headquarters…” and “The various personalities present on the sphere who were in doubt as to their attitude would journey back and forth between these discussions until they arrived at a final decision.”  When you are talking about a battle of ideas between these two great personalities (Lucifer with his backround of being quite a wonderful and loyal being up to this point, and Gabriel, chief executive of Nebadon), the very idea of swaying personalities to one side or the other is a very real and destructive war.

     

  16. Brooklyn_born wrote: This is what I found. Not sure if it’s what Chris uses to support that position but it speaks about proper etiquette for the morontia.

    The quote is talking about social conduct conducive to the avoidance of confusion so to facilitate intercourse, where intercourse means communication and fellowship. It has nothing at all to do with overlapping energies, non-sex procreation or learning how not to force people to join a rebellion.

    Well… I’m really not in a position to defend this stuff lol . Chris will have to defend his brainchild.

    BB

  17. Some good stuff going on here!!  Just remembered that I am a liaison!!  I have a favorite niece who is a single mom (we’ve always been very close since she was born and my wife and I have had her kids – our surrogate grandchildren – with us for days at a time every couple of weeks since birth for the past decade) and I have always gotten along fine with the children’s father but most of my family has been bitter, distant, even unfriendly since their split 7 years ago, and naturally my niece has had resentments and a tough time financially.  Well, as the kids got older (all 4 of them really including mom and dad – hahaha), Dad has really come around.  As the liaison between him and our side of the family, I’ve been able to keep things civil for the kids to where now we have full co-parenting and cooperation and open communication.  Both he and my niece tell me it was my kind, calm, and nurturing support (liaison skills – nonsexual by the way) which built a bridge that allowed such an outcome.  This is the very nature of liaison by the most basic and functional of its definitions.  Not the only one certainly but the form in question here I think.

    It’s like the word “intercourse” in the text quoted above…..not sex, not here anyway – different definition.  And the liaison to influence Manotia was not anyone within mind or invading free will or a conspiracy of overlapping forces.  And the sloppy, haphazhard presentation I listened to…..misquito net? zappers? rape? And this has something to do with the Power Controllers?  A horrific discombobulation of multiple concepts in the book thrown into a stew to conclude an attempted mind and free will raping of an angel???  Good grief Gertrude!!  For such an important topic to be so lamely mishandled by one shooting from the hip while claiming scholarship is startling in its implications.  People pay for this?

    BB…you’re not on any hot seat and you didn’t bring up Chris’ “perspective” on your important and sincere inquiry.  Don’t sweat it.  And this is precisely a type of forum to explore and gain some research assistance.  Sorry if I’ve added to any distress, not my intention.  Just the opposite.  You’ve not been defensive of another’s claims but have been very open minded and been engaging throughout.  I really enjoy the discussions your questions often begin, and your perspective.  We all must find a way to move forward through disagreement and misunderstanding….and we must all be careful with our pre-conceptions and those concepts presented by others which come to us second hand.   Hope you find a way to make this exercise fun even.  Scott and I have been agreeing more than disagreeing for years and he and Bonita even longer.  We’re a family of students studying.  We challenge one another.  We disagree and argue.  We teach one another thereby.  You teach too.  I appreciate you very much and your penetrating questions and desire to understand.  I remain confused on many things:  if a tadpole is not confused, we’re not paying attention.  But I might suggest it is bad form to provide second hand teaching by another when unable to define the context of its presentation…bad form indeed.  We’re all capable of giving our own account of our own understanding and quoting of the Revelation.  Chris has chosen his format and his students have chosen him.  Good enough.  He’s welcome here but appears pretty busy with his own gig, and chosen career.

    Thanks to all.  ;-)

     

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  18. No Bonita thinking that celestial beings were trying to destroy another celestial through some magical thought experiment is more ridiculous than thinking that they were trying to intrude upon his/her personal space with negative energy. And no I don’t think Chris reads the word liaison the same every time. By definition if you are intruding in on another persons space in places you shouldn’t you are raping that person. Even if there is nothing sexual happening. Rape can be simply sticking your hand down someone’s shirt.

    But when the authors use the word liaison when they are talking about energies it’s pretty obvious how they mean the word. And with Monotia they were using “Liaison forces” its obvious they are talking about some energy.

  19. Brooklyn_born wrote:  Do you think the belief in ‘celestial rape’ puts a person’s soul in  jeopardy?

    No.  Ignorance doesn’t harm the soul but it slows its progress.

    Brooklyn_born wrote: Could you expand on ‘error’?  Would error include mere beliefs that really don’t have any influence on social behaviort? Thanks.
    First of all, do you think that a belief in spirit rape might affect your behavior?  Of course it would.  Do you think that the fear it creates is conducive to soul growth?  Of course it isn’t.  You do know that we are supposed to model our behavior towards one another based upon what Jesus and other higher spirits would do.  If spirits rape one another, is that giving permission for rape?  It certainly causes confusion and we know that confusion retards progress.  Confusion is exactly what the rebel forces did to humans and we know that was evil.  What’s the difference between Caligastia causing confusion and a teacher causing confusion?  Caligastia’s error was deliberate.  Is Chris’ error deliberate?  I doubt it.  Deliberate error is sin, inadvertent error is just evil.  Is evil something you want?  No, I don’t think so.
    Erroneous thinking is inevitable.  Our individual framework of thought is only a temporary structure; these frameworks are not meant to take us into eternity. Frameworks of thought are supposed to help us build.  But if the framework is wrong, then the building is weak. Correcting erroneous thinking is important. If it wasn’t important, then why did God send us so many celestial teachers over time?  Why did Jesus try to correct erroneous thinking right up to the moment of his death?  Erroneous thinking results in confusion and confusion is supposed to be an incentive to look for ways to clarify and rectify it.  People look to God and some look to teachers to help them with their confusion.  Confusion is not stable.
    I think it is extremely important that those who claim to be teachers should be particularly careful about what they teach.  Those who are learning are no different than little ones and Jesus told us that it would be better to have a millstone around your neck and thrown into the sea than to lead a little one astray.  Teachers must adhere to a higher standard because they have a great deal of responsibility in preventing erroneous thinking that could  lead to confusion and slow another person’s spiritual progress.
    158:8.1 If you would be first in the kingdom, seek to minister these good truths to your brethren in the flesh. But whosoever causes one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hanged about his neck and he were cast into the sea.
  20. Some good stuff going on here!! Just remembered that I am a liaison!! I have a favorite niece who is a single mom (we’ve always been very close since she was born and my wife and I have had her kids – our surrogate grandchildren – with us for days at a time every couple of weeks since birth for the past decade) and I have always gotten along fine with the children’s father but most of my family has been bitter, distant, even unfriendly since their split 7 years ago, and naturally my niece has had resentments and a tough time financially. Well, as the kids got older (all 4 of them really including mom and dad – hahaha), Dad has really come around. As the liaison between him and our side of the family, I’ve been able to keep things civil for the kids to where now we have full co-parenting and cooperation and open communication. Both he and my niece tell me it was my kind, calm, and nurturing support (liaison skills – nonsexual by the way) which built a bridge that allowed such an outcome. This is the very nature of liaison by the most basic and functional of its definitions. Not the only one certainly but the form in question here I think. It’s like the word “intercourse” in the text quoted above…..not sex, not here anyway – different definition. And the liaison to influence Manotia was not anyone within mind or invading free will or a conspiracy of overlapping forces. And the sloppy, haphazhard presentation I listened to…..misquito net? zappers? rape? And this has something to do with the Power Controllers? A horrific discombobulation of multiple concepts in the book thrown into a stew to conclude an attempted mind and free will raping of an angel??? Good grief Gertrude!! For such an important topic to be so lamely mishandled by one shooting from the hip while claiming scholarship is startling in its implications. People pay for this? BB…you’re not on any hot seat and you didn’t bring up Chris’ “perspective” on your important and sincere inquiry. Don’t sweat it. And this is precisely a type of forum to explore and gain some research assistance. Sorry if I’ve added to any distress, not my intention. Just the opposite. You’ve not been defensive of another’s claims but have been very open minded and been engaging throughout. I really enjoy the discussions your questions often begin, and your perspective. We all must find a way to move forward through disagreement and misunderstanding….and we must all be careful with our pre-conceptions and those concepts presented by others which come to us second hand. Hope you find a way to make this exercise fun even. Scott and I have been agreeing more than disagreeing for years and he and Bonita even longer. We’re a family of students studying. We challenge one another. We disagree and argue. We teach one another thereby. You teach too. I appreciate you very much and your penetrating questions and desire to understand. I remain confused on many things: if a tadpole is not confused, we’re not paying attention. But I might suggest it is bad form to provide second hand teaching by another when unable to define the context of its presentation…bad form indeed. We’re all capable of giving our own account of our own understanding and quoting of the Revelation. Chris has chosen his format and his students have chosen him. Good enough. He’s welcome here but appears pretty busy with his own gig, and chosen career. Thanks to all. ;-)

    Well said, Bradly. And now… I may wipe my brow and let out a sigh of relief ’cause I’m off the hook! lmao :-)

    BB

Reply on the current forum

↑ Back to top