278 posts · 10 participants · started Aug 22, 2014, 2:00 AM
TUB wrote: You have to think in literal terms when they say they attempted to destroy a being.Why? Why do I have to think in literal terms?
Well she is telling us that they point blank sought her destruction. I don’t see how that statement could be figurative.
Brooklyn_born wrote: Bonita, lets say you have a friend you know is in error in the belief he has adopted. But you play along and act like you agree to keep the peace and friendship going. Would you be committing sin?It depends on the belief, doesn’t it? If your friend believed in murdering his first born and you just played along, then yes, it’s a sin.
But let’s get something clear here. I don’t know if Chris BELIEVES in spirit rape but his thinking created confusion in his teaching and the confusion metastasized so now others do believe it. It’s not necessarily about believes, but wrong thinking that creates wrong beliefs.
Actually you are twisting his words he said their attempted rape couldn’t happen. He doesn’t believe its possible for this transaction to occur. That is why he mentioned a Master Physical Controller, he is saying there is no way they are going to let a being doing this.
TUB wrote: The dictionary meaning of Ego is Self. There are a bevy of quotes that speak about the soul in the same context as the morontia self.The morontia soul does not become a morontia self until the personality has shifted its identity to it. The morontia soul, for humans here on earth, is a potential morontia self. The Planetary Prince’s staff had an actual morontia self.
So you admit that the morontia soul can be a morontia self. I will take that even if I disagree with the rest of what you said. So then you admit a liaison between two morontia selves is a liaison between two souls? The Staff are former humans they would have massive souls.
I think I now understand exactly how Chris constructed his theory. He relied heavily on the Caligastia 100 narratives to guide him in the explanation.
The rebels/celestials are three fold nature. The idea is drawn from the following:
“But the corporeal staff were nonetheless superhuman. They began their mission on Urantia as extraordinary threefold beings”
The three fold energy system :
“In conformity to their instructions the staff did not engage in sexual reproduction, but they did painstakingly study their personal constitutions, and they carefully explored every imaginable phase of intellectual (mind) and morontia (soul) liaison.”
1. Physical
2. mindal
3. morontia
Three forces are the threefold energy system based on wording:
“…liaison forces they had arranged…”
; liaison force = morontia liaison
; liaison force = mindal liaison
; liaison force = physical liaison
; liaison forces = physical, mindal and morontial liaison
So what he did was equate force = morontia… force = mindal …. force = physical
What is overlapping? Different combinations of those forces (morontia, mindal and physical) through liaison. We see it with the ascendant citizens (AC) who engage in intellectual and morontial liaison while refraining from physical liaison:
“…explored every imaginable phase of intellectual (mind) and morontia (soul) liaison”
It was two ACs of the Prince’s staff who overlapped their morontia energy system, thus creating the first of the primary midwayers. Chris uses the word ‘overlap’ I believe because it captures this nonsexual degree of combining of energy systems from both parties, just as two parents contribute chromosomes in conception.
Am I on the mark, TUB?
BB
Brooklyn_born wrote: The problem I have with your argument, Bonita, is I don’t believe it jibes with the sequence of events. I am of the opinion the rebels sought Manotia’s destruction only after she refused to participate.
And I disagree with that argument. I tried to explain the use of the semicolon before. There is nothing in that sentence that suggests sequentiality. In fact, I read the sentence to mean that Manotia refused to participate in the projected insult to Michael even though, or despite the fact that, the powerful rebels had sought her destruction by means of the liaison forces they had arranged.
Brooklyn_born wrote: Bonita, why would a LOYAL seraphim be in danger of harm? It does not make sense that a loyal seraphim could be in the way of harm when they are loyal.
Brooklyn_born wrote: Now… one who is steadfast in faith and loyal yet supceptible to harm tells me that an effort is being made to fight this war on multiple fronts, not just one.
Brooklyn_born wrote:Those angels that sided with the rebellion, why aren’t they described as being harmed or destroyed? Why are they merely described as “went astray?”
2:3.6 The rule of the Creator Sons in the local universes is one of creation and spiritualization. These Sons devote themselves to the effective execution of the Paradise plan of progressive mortal ascension, to the rehabilitation of rebels and wrong thinkers, but when all such loving efforts are finally and forever rejected, the final decree of dissolution is executed by forces acting under the jurisdiction of the Ancients of Days.
Brooklyn_born wrote: No, he is not breaking any laws. He is Muslim and is full of anger and hate.
130:2.4 There is no adventure in the course of mortal existence more enthralling than to enjoy the exhilaration of becoming the material life partner with spiritual energy and divine truth in one of their triumphant struggles with error and evil. It is a marvelous and transforming experience to become the living channel of spiritual light to the mortal who sits in spiritual darkness. If you are more blessed with truth than is this man, his need should challenge you. Surely you are not the coward who could stand by on the seashore and watch a fellow man who could not swim perish! How much more of value is this man’s soul floundering in darkness compared to his body drowning in water!“
Well she is telling us that they point blank sought her destruction. I don’t see how that statement could be figurative.
Yes, but you’re reading it literally all you know is that they sought her destruction. You have no idea what kind of destruction they sought. But they do give us a hint three paragraphs earlier when they say, ” . . . but the war in heaven was fought in terms of life eternal.” (53:5.7) Reading in context, it’s clear that she meant that the destruction they sought was her life eternal, her immortality, which would be lost if she chose to be disloyal.
Brooklyn_born wrote: The problem I have with your argument, Bonita, is I don’t believe it jibes with the sequence of events. I am of the opinion the rebels sought Manotia’s destruction only after she refused to participate.And I disagree with that argument. I tried to explain the use of the semicolon before. There is nothing in that sentence that suggests sequentiality. In fact, I read the sentence to mean that Manotia refused to participate in the projected insult to Michael even though, or despite the fact that, the powerful rebels had sought her destruction by means of the liaison forces they had arranged.
Brooklyn_born wrote: Bonita, why would a LOYAL seraphim be in danger of harm? It does not make sense that a loyal seraphim could be in the way of harm when they are loyal.That sentence is written retrospectively. All the seraphim that refused to participate in the projected insult to Michael, despite the fact that the powerful rebels sought their destruction by means of the liaison forces they had arranged, were unharmed. They were in danger but remained loyal and were therefore unharmed. Angels are not absolutely sure of their eternal future until they have attained Seraphington. 39:8.9 The danger of going astray puts their immortality at risk, and that is what as meant by sought their destruction. If they go astray before attaining Seraphington, their survival in eternity is in jeopardy.Brooklyn_born wrote: Now… one who is steadfast in faith and loyal yet supceptible to harm tells me that an effort is being made to fight this war on multiple fronts, not just one.I see no evidence of multiple fronts. The quote says a liaison of arranged forces of powerful rebels. That would be multiple rebels in liaison. Power in numbers.Brooklyn_born wrote:Those angels that sided with the rebellion, why aren’t they described as being harmed or destroyed? Why are they merely described as “went astray?”Because they aren’t destroyed until after all attempts at rehabilitation have been taken and they’ve had a chance for a trial, and the trial has not happened yet. What happened was after Michael gained his sovereignty, they were all put into custody and offered rehabilitation. Some accepted it and others refused. Those who refused are still in custody and will undergo a trial. Michael devotes himself to rehabilitating rebels and wrong thinkers. It’s his work. Enough time has to be given to him to do his work before the rebels are destroyed. No one has been destroyed yet. Seeking someone’s destruction simply means trying to convince them to do something stupid like be disloyal to Michael and deny God, knowing that when an angel does such a thing it will have to be rehabilitated or eventually be executed. Actually, they aren’t really executed, they just become completely unreal and unreal things/persons cannot exist.
2:3.6 The rule of the Creator Sons in the local universes is one of creation and spiritualization. These Sons devote themselves to the effective execution of the Paradise plan of progressive mortal ascension, to the rehabilitation of rebels and wrong thinkers, but when all such loving efforts are finally and forever rejected, the final decree of dissolution is executed by forces acting under the jurisdiction of the Ancients of Days.
BB
TUB wrote: Actually you are twisting his words he said their attempted rape couldn’t happen. He doesn’t believe its possible for this transaction to occur. That is why he mentioned a Master Physical Controller, he is saying there is no way they are going to let a being doing this.
Ah yes, the Master Physical Controller. What the heck is that all about? This is what he said:
“It’s just like him saying, “There’s no way that the executioners of the Ancients of Days can do anything to us if we don’t submit.” Well, you’re kinda over-ruled in the power category there. Even if the executioner can’t do it himself, he can command the Master Physical Controllers. You’re gonna loose that battle. I’m pretty sure that a being who can encircuit a star can keep a bunch of goof-head angels from having a negative liaison with me.”
What does a Master Physical Controller have to do with liaison forces? This is whacko, in my opinion. And who says it was only angels in the liaison force dispatched to convince Manotia to rebel? There’s a lot of poetic license going on there, that’s all I have to say. If you want to defend it, go right ahead, but I’m not going near it with a ten-foot pole. I recognize farcical when I see it. None of my cosmic intuitions are pinging on this one. Figment . . . figment . . . figment, that’s all I’m getting. It’s going right in the recycle bin.
It makes no sense for Manotia to use “destruction” to describe their actions unless she identified them as threatening.
Okay, this has gotten interesting and when one word hangs on its meaning then anything goes. Therefore, since I am a computer programmer and see things differently, in code so to speck, Manotia is a Seraphim, which by its meaning is a plural term, of Seraph. And in the UB quote in question, it also refers to Angelic Hosts, where one could assume that Manotia is a program or compound entity. Now the opposite to “destruction” is construction. Construction is normally multiple components which are put together. The UB indicates that Seraphim generally work in pairs, and since this now can represent four Seraphs, they are held together by a host which in essence is a liaison. De-struct-ion, when broken down is actually de-construction, where “struct” is a computer term meaning: “A struct has one or more members, each of which may have different types. It is used to group associated data together.” Therefore when Manotia, states that “not a single Seraphim”, this would be incorrect because Seraphim is plural, which by itself tells you that when a Seraphim is separated into Seraph’s and if one of these Seraph were to separate and join the rebellion and leave the other behind, it would destroy their union.
We must look at how Seraphim are created and used as described in the Urantia Book before we assume that they are like us in every way, but there is much more in the entire OP’s (opening post)’s UB quote, but the whole quote was not used, and the preceding and following quotes would shed much more light on this entire topic.
Fascinating, how the human mind works?
You are sticking to your guns and I am sticking to mine
Yeah, but you’re still confused about your conclusion and I am not confused at all. You’re still trying to figure it out and I’m satisfied that there was nothing to figure out in the first place. I think you’re inventing a problem that isn’t there. It seems to me if something isn’t true, it causes confusion. Personally, I like my conclusion because it’s not confusing. I have no questions about it, and it makes sense; I’m at peace with it. You’re still trying to act out your ideas without satisfaction. So go ahead and stick to your guns, keep trying to force that square peg into the round hole. It seems a bit silly to me, but not as silly as spirits trying to rape each other with overlapping three-fold negative liaison energies blocked by Master Physical Controllers. Now that’s real science fiction, or maybe too many video games as a youth. Nothing but figment.
The mere fact that the authors even use this phrase “explored every imaginable phase of intellectual (mind) and morontia (soul) liaison” means that there is such a thing as soul liaison and intellectual (mind) liaison. Do you guys think its crazy to assume that this soul liaison or mind liaison may be some intimate connection between 2 or more souls, or 2 or more minds?
TUB wrote: Actually you are twisting his words he said their attempted rape couldn’t happen. He doesn’t believe its possible for this transaction to occur. That is why he mentioned a Master Physical Controller, he is saying there is no way they are going to let a being doing this.Ah yes, the Master Physical Controller. What the heck is that all about? This is what he said:
“It’s just like him saying, “There’s no way that the executioners of the Ancients of Days can do anything to us if we don’t submit.” Well, you’re kinda over-ruled in the power category there. Even if the executioner can’t do it himself, he can command the Master Physical Controllers. You’re gonna loose that battle. I’m pretty sure that a being who can encircuit a star can keep a bunch of goof-head angels from having a negative liaison with me.”
What does a Master Physical Controller have to do with liaison forces? This is whacko, in my opinion. And who says it was only angels in the liaison force dispatched to convince Manotia to rebel? There’s a lot of poetic license going on there, that’s all I have to say. If you want to defend it, go right ahead, but I’m not going near it with a ten-foot pole. I recognize farcical when I see it. None of my cosmic intuitions are pinging on this one. Figment . . . figment . . . figment, that’s all I’m getting. It’s going right in the recycle bin.
Well you picked up listening to the conversation half way through, earlier in the broadcast Chris touches on this paragraph.
P603:6, 53:3.5 He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days.
Earlier he talked about how retarded Lucifer and company where acting when they thought that the executioners of the Ancient of Days could be debarred. The connection with the line about Manotia is that they were acting just as retarded by thinking that they could destroy another being with liaison forces. The Master Physical Controllers can control any and all energy forces in our universe they can certainly control the energies of a lowly angel. There is no way the Master Physical Controllers will allow you to do any real physical harm to another being using any energies no matter how hard you try. That goes for any being in the universe, their power is incredible. Now how is any of what I said wacko???
Look how the authors use the word liaison here. It certainly seems like some things are intimately connected together with this liaison. Chris’ way of using the word liaison fits perfectly in the context of this paragraph.
8:5.4 There are many spiritual influences, and they are all as one. Even the work of the Thought Adjusters, though independent of all other influences, unvaryingly coincides with the spirit ministry of the combined influences of the Infinite Spirit and a local universe Mother Spirit. As these spiritual presences operate in the lives of Urantians, they cannot be segregated. In your minds and upon your souls they function as one spirit, notwithstanding their diverse origins. And as this united spiritual ministration is experienced, it becomes to you the influence of the Supreme, “who is ever able to keep you from failing and to present you blameless before your Father on high.”
8:5.5 Ever remember that the Infinite Spirit is the Conjoint Actor; both the Father and the Son are functioning in and through him; he is present not only as himself but also as the Father and as the Son and as the Father-Son. In recognition of this and for many additional reasons the spirit presence of the Infinite Spirit is often referred to as “the spirit of God.”
8:5.6 It would also be consistent to refer to the liaison of all spiritual ministry as the spirit of God, for such a liaison is truly the union of the spirits of God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit, and God the Sevenfold — even the spirit of God the Supreme.
And it fits perfectly here to.
12:6.3 The Third Source and Center assists in the maintenance of the equilibrium and co-ordination of the combined physical and spiritual energies and organizations by the absoluteness of his grasp of the cosmic mind and by the exercise of his inherent and universal physical- and spiritual-gravity complements. Whenever and wherever there occurs a liaison between the material and the spiritual, such a mind phenomenon is an act of the Infinite Spirit. Mind alone can interassociate the physical forces and energies of the material level with the spiritual powers and beings of the spirit level.
You are sticking to your guns and I am sticking to mine
Yeah, but you’re still confused about your conclusion and I am not confused at all. You’re still trying to figure it out and I’m satisfied that there was nothing to figure out in the first place. I think you’re inventing a problem that isn’t there. It seems to me if something isn’t true, it causes confusion. Personally, I like my conclusion because it’s not confusing. I have no questions about it, and it makes sense; I’m at peace with it. You’re still trying to act out your ideas without satisfaction. So go ahead and stick to your guns, keep trying to force that square peg into the round hole. It seems a bit silly to me, but not as silly as spirits trying to rape each other with overlapping three-fold negative liaison energies blocked by Master Physical Controllers. Now that’s real science fiction, or maybe too many video games as a youth. Nothing but figment.
You are right, and honestly Im not even putting much stock into it. it is not something I am internalizing. It is really my curiosity that has me looking into that event.
BB
Brooklyn_born wrote: No, he is not breaking any laws. He is Muslim and is full of anger and hate.Personally, I have trouble remaining friends with people who are full of anger and hate. But then I’m reminded of what Jesus said we should do in these circumstances.130:2.4 There is no adventure in the course of mortal existence more enthralling than to enjoy the exhilaration of becoming the material life partner with spiritual energy and divine truth in one of their triumphant struggles with error and evil. It is a marvelous and transforming experience to become the living channel of spiritual light to the mortal who sits in spiritual darkness. If you are more blessed with truth than is this man, his need should challenge you. Surely you are not the coward who could stand by on the seashore and watch a fellow man who could not swim perish! How much more of value is this man’s soul floundering in darkness compared to his body drowning in water!“
BB
It makes no sense for Manotia to use “destruction” to describe their actions unless she identified them as threatening.
Okay, this has gotten interesting and when one word hangs on its meaning then anything goes. Therefore, since I am a computer programmer and see things differently, in code so to speck, Manotia is a Seraphim, which by its meaning is a plural term, of Seraph. And in the UB quote in question, it also refers to Angelic Hosts, where one could assume that Manotia is a program or compound entity. Now the opposite to “destruction” is construction. Construction is normally multiple components which are put together. The UB indicates that Seraphim generally work in pairs, and since this now can represent four Seraphs, they are held together by a host which in essence is a liaison. De-struct-ion, when broken down is actually de-construction, where “struct” is a computer term meaning: “A struct has one or more members, each of which may have different types. It is used to group associated data together.” Therefore when Manotia, states that “not a single Seraphim”, this would be incorrect because Seraphim is plural, which by itself tells you that when a Seraphim is separated into Seraph’s and if one of these Seraph were to separate and join the rebellion and leave the other behind, it would destroy their union. We must look at how Seraphim are created and used as described in the Urantia Book before we assume that they are like us in every way, but there is much more in the entire OP’s (opening post)’s UB quote, but the whole quote was not used, and the preceding and following quotes would shed much more light on this entire topic. Fascinating, how the human mind works?
Midi, so when Seraphims join rebellions they can do so only in pairs, is what you are implying. Correct? So when it says not a “single” loyal serpahim was harmed it is somewhat misleading as seraphims, by default, exist and work in pairs, correct? It should read ‘not a single pair of seraphim‘ was harmed. I never looked at it that way. Very interesting observation. I think I recall somewhere in the papers a celestial author does establish the rule that when you read about seraphim you must assume it is referring to a pair of seraphim.
BB
TUB wrote: Do you guys think its crazy to assume that this soul liaison or mind liaison may be some intimate connection between 2 or more souls, or 2 or more minds?
Liaison between the soul and the Adjuster is as intimate as you can get.
TUB wrote: Well you picked up listening to the conversation half way through, earlier in the broadcast Chris touches on this paragraph.
What does that quote have to do with Master Physical Controllers?
Midi, so when Seraphims join rebellions they can do so only in pairs, is what you are implying. Correct? So when it says not a “single” loyal serpahim was harmed it is somewhat misleading as seraphims, by default, exist and work in pairs, correct? It should read ‘not a single pair of seraphim‘ was harmed. I never looked at it that way. Very interesting observation. I think I recall somewhere in the papers a celestial author does establish the rule that when you read about seraphim you must assume it is referring to a pair of seraphim.
Not necessarily B.B., but in contrast between the way the Urantia Book uses the word “Seraphim” which is the plural of Seraph, it also associates “cherubim and sanobim” with “seraphim”, where it might be considered as a compound type of liaison, but they all can function as individuals. The following quotes might help to associate them to each other.
(420.3)38:4.2 These headquarters worlds are among the magnificent realms of Nebadon; the seraphic estates are characterized by both beauty and vastness. Here each seraphim has a real home, and “home” means the domicile of two seraphim; they live in pairs.
(420.4)38:4.3 Though not male and female as are the Material Sons and the mortal races, seraphim are negative and positive. In the majority of assignments it requires two angels to accomplish the task. When they are not encircuited, they can work alone; neither do they require complements of being when stationary. Ordinarily they retain their original complements of being, but not necessarily. Such associations are primarily necessitated by function; they are not characterized by sex emotion, though they are exceedingly personal and truly affectionate.
(420.5)38:4.4 Besides designated homes, seraphim also have group, company, battalion, and unit headquarters. They forgather for reunions every millennium and are all present in accordance with the time of their creation. If a seraphim bears responsibilities which forbid absence from duty, she alternates attendance with her complement, being relieved by a seraphim of another birth date. Each seraphic partner is thereby present at least every other reunion.
The following associates seraphim with cherubim and sanobim, but keep in mind that there are positive and negative aspects to all of these pairs but whether the dominance of the positive or negative will supersede one from another is, at this point unclear, and by looking further may answer your question.
(422.1) 38:7.1 In all essential endowments cherubim and sanobim are similar to seraphim. They have the same origin but not always the same destiny. They are wonderfully intelligent, marvelously efficient, touchingly affectionate, and almost human. They are the lowest order of angels, hence all the nearer of kin to the more progressive types of human beings on the evolutionary worlds.
(422.2) 38:7.2 Cherubim and sanobim are inherently associated, functionally united. One is an energy positive personality; the other, energy negative. The right-hand deflector, or positively charged angel, is the cherubim — the senior or controlling personality. The left-hand deflector, or negatively charged angel, is the sanobim — the complement of being. Each type of angel is very limited in solitary function; hence they usually serve in pairs. When serving independently of their seraphic directors, they are more than ever dependent on mutual contact and always function together.
(422.3) 38:7.3 Cherubim and sanobim are the faithful and efficient aids of the seraphic ministers, and all seven orders of seraphim are provided with these subordinate assistants. Cherubim and sanobim serve for ages in these capacities, but they do not accompany seraphim on assignments beyond the confines of the local universe.
(422.4) 38:7.4 The cherubim and sanobim are the routine spirit workers on the individual worlds of the systems. On a nonpersonal assignment and in an emergency, they may serve in the place of a seraphic pair, but they never function, even temporarily, as attending angels to human beings; that is an exclusive seraphic privilege.
(422.5) 38:7.5 When assigned to a planet, cherubim enter the local courses of training, including a study of planetary usages and languages. The ministering spirits of time are all bilingual, speaking the language of the local universe of their origin and that of their native superuniverse. By study in the schools of the realms they acquire additional tongues. Cherubim and sanobim, like seraphim and all other orders of spirit beings, are continuously engaged in efforts at self-improvement. Only such as the subordinate beings of power control and energy direction are incapable of progression; all creatures having actual or potential personality volition seek new achievements.
(422.6)38:7.6 Cherubim and sanobim are by nature very near the morontia level of existence, and they prove to be most efficient in the borderland work of the physical, morontial, and spiritual domains. These children of the local universe Mother Spirit are characterized by “fourth creatures” much as are the Havona Servitals and the conciliating commissions. Every fourth cherubim and every fourth sanobim are quasi-material, very definitely resembling the morontia level of existence.
(422.7)38:7.7 These angelic fourth creatures are of great assistance to the seraphim in the more literal phases of their universe and planetary activities. Such morontia cherubim also perform many indispensable borderline tasks on the morontia training worlds and are assigned to the service of the Morontia Companions in large numbers. They are to the morontia spheres about what the midway creatures are to the evolutionary planets. On the inhabited worlds these morontia cherubim frequently work in liaison with the midway creatures. Cherubim and midway creatures are distinctly separate orders of beings; they have dissimilar origins, but they disclose great similarity in nature and function.
It can be assumed that from the following quote:
(606.7)53:6.4 “Upon the default of my immediate superior it devolved upon me to assume command of the angelic hosts of Jerusem as the titular director of the confused seraphic affairs of the system. I was morally upheld by the Melchizedeks, ably assisted by a majority of the Material Sons, deserted by a tremendous group of my own order, but magnificently supported by the ascendant mortals on Jerusem.
That Manotia’s “immediate superior” was her compliment, whereby, she was left alone to take over the duties her primary had defaulted, therefore she was the secondary, but when acting as an individual was supported, or “morally upheld by the Melchizedeks”.
