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Need clarification on the rebellion papers…

278 posts · 10 participants · started Aug 22, 2014, 2:00 AM

  1. As descendant planetary ministers on Urantia they were material sex creatures capable of procreating material offspring (as some of them later did). What we cannot satisfactorily explain is how these one hundred could function in the parental role on a supermaterial level, but that is exactly what happened. A supermaterial (nonsexual) liaison of a male and a female member of the corporeal staff resulted in the appearance of the first-born of the primary midwayers

     


    @Bonita
    the liaison that happened was not between the staff and their own selves. It was between a male and a female as stated in this paragraph above. That is how the midwayers came to be. The authors even call them parents. It takes a mom and a dad to liaison with another in order for their to be a midwayer. The (2 morontia selves) are having a liaison with one another not their own being.

  2. Thought critters like these would be free of human revenge like emotions or am I filtering the event through my own human like emotions

    I think you’re right nelson.  Although angels are close to us in emotions, they do not have fear.  Revenge, hate, vengeance and suspicion are all based upon fear.  I don’t think even the rebel angels were capable of any of those negative human emotions, which is why it makes no sense that they sought revenge on Manotia.

    113:2.5 The angels develop an abiding affection for their human associates; and you would, if you could only visualize the seraphim, develop a warm affection for them. Divested of material bodies, given spirit forms, you would be very near the angels in many attributes of personality. They share most of your emotions and experience some additional ones. The only emotion actuating you which is somewhat difficult for them to comprehend is the legacy of animal fear that bulks so large in the mental life of the average inhabitant of Urantia. The angels really find it hard to understand why you will so persistently allow your higher intellectual powers, even your religious faith, to be so dominated by fear, so thoroughly demoralized by the thoughtless panic of dread and anxiety.

  3. I think you’re right nelson.  Although angels are close to us in emotions, they do not have fear.  Revenge, hate, vengeance and suspicion are all based upon fear.  I don’t think even the rebel angels were capable of any of those negative human emotions, which is why it makes no sense that they sought revenge on Manotia.

    You don’t think an angel is capable of revenge? Angels are not innately divine. An Angel can go astray. If they are functioning as they should they won’t experience any of those things, but if they enter into rebellion they can experience all of those things. If their minds and their hearts turn to complete darkness that is all they will experience (hate,vengeance, suspicion etc). You don’t think Lucifer became suspicious of those who governed him?

  4. Where in the book does it say that “soul liaison did not work”??? I can’t find that anywhere in the text.

    The quote says that they explored every imaginable phase of soul liaison, then accidentally were successful with a liaison of their soul selves.  All of the imaginable phases of soul liaison they explored did not produce a midwayer until the accidental liaison between the soul selves,  which means that those phases they explored prior to the accident did not work.

     

  5. In my opinion, angles doing what humans do, regardless of what we read is bringing them down to earth, so similar to what evolutionary religions have done to God, like protecting the Jews or destroying Sodom and even now with all this bowing down Ala business.

    I really feel like I am missing something from reading all of this.

  6. Where in the book does it say that “soul liaison did not work”??? I can’t find that anywhere in the text.

    The quote says that they explored every imaginable phase of soul liaison, then accidentally were successful with a liaison of their soul selves. All of the imaginable phases of soul liaison they explored did not produce a midwayer until the accidental liaison between the soul selves, which means that those phases they explored prior to the accident did not work.

    It didn’t work for 33 years, but at some point their souls had a liaison, you have even agreed in the past that the morontia self is the soul. Even I you don’t believe that, you do realize that the liaison that took place was between a male and a female. It wasn’t between their soul and their own self.

  7. TUB wrote: . . . the liaison that happened was not between the staff and their own selves. It was between a male and a female as stated in this paragraph above.
    Scott, you’re not making any sense.  The liaison was between the soul selves of two staff members, number two and number seven.  I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.  It seems like you just want to argue about any little thing, mostly coming from your imagination.  But I’ll keep praying for you nonetheless.
  8. TUB wrote: . . . the liaison that happened was not between the staff and their own selves. It was between a male and a female as stated in this paragraph above.
    Scott, you’re not making any sense. The liaison was between the soul selves of two staff members, number two and number seven. I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about. It seems like you just want to argue about any little thing, mostly coming from your imagination. But I’ll keep praying for you nonetheless.
    Okay so let me break this down into little pieces for you. There was a male Danite who got together with a female Danite and their souls had a liaison with one another. The liaison (the overlapping) of their morontia selves (their souls) with each other produced a midwayer.
    As descendant planetary ministers on Urantia they were material sex creatures capable of procreating material offspring (as some of them later did). What we cannot satisfactorily explain is how these one hundred could function in the parental role on a supermaterial level, but that is exactly what happened. A supermaterial (nonsexual) liaison of a male and a female member of the corporeal staff resulted in the appearance of the first-born of the primary midwayers
  9. TUB wrote: Angels are not innately divine. An Angel can go astray. If they are functioning as they should they won’t experience any of those things, but if they enter into rebellion they can experience all of those things. If their minds and their hearts turn to complete darkness that is all they will experience (hate,vengeance, suspicion etc). You don’t think Lucifer became suspicious of those who governed him?
    No, I do not think that Lucifer was suspicious. Suspicion is an emotion of primitive humans.  Suspicion is bred from ignorance and Lucifer was not ignorant.  Lucifer was interested in self-exaltation, self-assertion and self-liberty.  He just wanted to do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted, and however he wanted. I don’t think the rebels saw any of this as darkness; they called it liberty.  If the angels developed hate, vengeance and suspicion that would mean that they were becoming human, an unlikely event.  Angels are not born with the capacity for any of these emotions.  These human emotions can’t just appear even in spiritual darkness, which is just emptiness from isolation.
  10. It didn’t work for 33 years, but at some point their souls had a liaison, you have even agreed in the past that the morontia self is the soul. Even I you don’t believe that, you do realize that the liaison that took place was between a male and a female. It wasn’t between their soul and their own self.

    Scott, when did I ever say that it wasn’t a male and female?  Were you misreading my posts again? But actually, the quote does not give the sex of number two and number seven, one just naturally assumes the pair was a male and female.  Also, the quote does not say that they tried to reproduce for 33 years; it says it was the 33rd year of the sojourn in Dalamatia.  We don’t know how many years they were working on reproducing.

    66:4.10  In conformity to their instructions the staff did not engage in sexual reproduction, but they did painstakingly study their personal constitutions, and they carefully explored every imaginable phase of intellectual (mind) and morontia (soul) liaison. And it was during the thirty-third year of their sojourn in Dalamatia, long before the wall was completed, that number two and number seven of the Danite group accidentally discovered a phenomenon attendant upon the liaison of their morontia selves (supposedly nonsexual and nonmaterial); and the result of this adventure proved to be the first of the primary midway creatures. This new being was wholly visible to the planetary staff and to their celestial associates but was not visible to the men and women of the various human tribes. Upon authority of the Planetary Prince the entire corporeal staff undertook the production of similar beings, and all were successful, following the instructions of the pioneer Danite pair. Thus did the Prince’s staff eventually bring into being the original corps of 50,000 primary midwayers.

  11. TUB wrote:  There was a male Danite who got together with a female Danite and their souls had a liaison with one another. The liaison (the overlapping) of their morontia selves (their souls) with each other produced a midwayer.

    There’s nothing written about overlapping anything. I think you made that up. Not even the revelators know how they did it, yet you say you know it was done by overlapping.  I find that hilarious.  You really must think I’m an idiot if you think you have to spell it out for me . . . that cracks me up. And what’s your hang up with the male/female thing?  I don’t get it.  Are you suggesting that I think it was a gay relationship, a protoplasmic star trek melding?  Scott, you’re not making one bit of sense in your argument.  You’re arguing about nothing at all . . . vapor, pure vapor.

    The reason why it’s hard to understand how soul SELVES can become parents is because morontia entities cannot reproduce.  Their soul SELVES were morontial.   Morontia entities do not ordinarily reproduce, not by any method, not by overlapping, interfacing, entwining, splicing or interlocking.  NO ONE KNOWS HOW THEY DID IT, AND THAT INCLUDES YOU.

     

  12. Okay so let me break this down into little pieces for you. There was a male Danite who got together with a female Danite and their souls had a liaison with one another. The liaison (the overlapping) of their morontia selves (their souls) with each other produced a midwayer.

    TUB/Scott, it would seem that you are still playing the antagonist in most all of your posts, because you yourself have repeatedly mentioned in the past, on the old forums and other forums, that you deliberately play this part to get a debate going, but this is not a debate.  This has become very close to plagiarism, on many sides.  For one, you use Chris as a scapegoat for your own misinterpretations of what Chris has said on his broadcasts, and without a transcript of what he actually has said, you are making yourself out as if you know exactly what Chris is or has said or what he meant by what he said.  So, until you can quote him exactly, with a transcript, I would not be using what Chris said or meant as what you think he said.  What you are saying here is your opinion, and your failure to sight UB quotes when asked is just your opinion and other than it would be foolish for anyone to attempt to debate with you because in many cases you actually don’t make any sense, but that is exactly your intention.  You like to play the antagonist, which by the way doesn’t impress me at all.

    Regarding you statement above and where you used a UB quote from Paper 77, which is a restatement from Paper 66, even the authors appear not to know how the 50 pairs accomplished what they did, but if you actually read Paper 66, you might come up with some different questions other than badgering others to speculate on something which seems apparent that you have no idea of either.  If you calculate how the 50,000 original Midwayers came into existence you would also have read that each pair of the staff produced 1000 each, no more, no less and that they had to wait, I believe 6 months between each additional Midwayer, which means that they did this over a period of 500 years.  Not to mention that the staff were specially created beings and what Bonita mentioned earlier, when she used the words Mind Meld, would not be that far from what the authors seem to be describing, so if you want to get a better understand of this method of liaison, I would suggest that you look up Vulcan’s and see if there are any similarities in their description and what the UB has mentioned about the 100.

    Before you rant and rave further about the Power Controllers, you might actually look up the subject and you will find that there are different types and that primarily they are auto functional and work off of thirty universal principles of how they effect power in the universe.  You might actually find out that they are not beings in the normal sense that they perform on demand or by their own volition.

    So, please refrain from using Chris’s stuff unless you can get some written document where Chris gives you permission to speck for him.  You and I have been down this Chris H. path in the past and I have very little to say in addition on this subject, but I must admit that if I were Chris, and reading what you say here, in essence putting words in Chris’s mouth, would even turn me away from believing any of your opinions, or that they were rational.

    I’m sorry but this has become ridicules.

  13. @Midi I never wanted to talk about Chris and I wasn’t the person who brought Chris up. BB did, and then everyone jumped on Chris. I didn’t have any intention of going down this road. Bonita asked for a transcript of something Chris said. People listened to the transcript and then some lost their marbles when they heard him. I am just defending him with my own opinions. I am sure he could defend himself much better than I can. It is easy to attack someone who isn’t even here to defend himself. Also some Controllers do have personal traits in the normal sense, and some do not.
    TUB wrote: Angels are not innately divine. An Angel can go astray. If they are functioning as they should they won’t experience any of those things, but if they enter into rebellion they can experience all of those things. If their minds and their hearts turn to complete darkness that is all they will experience (hate,vengeance, suspicion etc). You don’t think Lucifer became suspicious of those who governed him?
    No, I do not think that Lucifer was suspicious. Suspicion is an emotion of primitive humans. Suspicion is bred from ignorance and Lucifer was not ignorant. Lucifer was interested in self-exaltation, self-assertion and self-liberty. He just wanted to do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted, and however he wanted. I don’t think the rebels saw any of this as darkness; they called it liberty. If the angels developed hate, vengeance and suspicion that would mean that they were becoming human, an unlikely event. Angels are not born with the capacity for any of these emotions. These human emotions can’t just appear even in spiritual darkness, which is just emptiness from isolation.
    That is an interesting take on ignorance that I agree with completely.  There is just one thing you are missing. The authors tell us that Lucifer became VERY ignorant.
    (601.1)53:0.1 LUCIFER was a brilliant primary Lanonandek Son of Nebadon. He had experienced service in many systems, had been a high counselor of his group, and was distinguished for wisdom, sagacity, and efficiency. Lucifer was number 37 of his order, and when commissioned by the Melchizedeks, he was designated as one of the one hundred most able and brilliant personalities in more than seven hundred thousand of his kind. From such a magnificent beginning, through evil and error, he embraced sin and now is numbered as one of three System Sovereigns in Nebadon who have succumbed to the urge of self and surrendered to the sophistry of spurious personal liberty — rejection of universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations, blindness to cosmic relationships.
    I would think that “blindness to cosmic relationships” would qualify as ignorance. If you can’t see any cosmic relationships you are pretty ignorant. Not to mention the whole thing about rejecting universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations.
  14. Bonita wrote:Scott, when did I ever say that it wasn’t a male and female?  Were you misreading my posts again? But actually, the quote does not give the sex of number two and number seven, one just naturally assumes the pair was a male and female.  Also, the quote does not say that they tried to reproduce for 33 years; it says it was the 33rd year of the sojourn in Dalamatia.  We don’t know how many years they were working on reproducing.
    I never stated that you said that they were male and female. But you do realize the authors tell us that they were a male and female. So yes they do tell us. Mom and Dad got together and had a liaison with one another. I don’t personally know the details of how two morontia selves can liaison with each other, but I can safely say it was a intimate contact of some sort. You don’t know that Chris doesn’t know how this took place. The authors may not know all the little details that happened with the Danite pair but they do know what a non-sexual liaison is. Chris is not here to defend himself so we don’t know how he came to his conclusions. There could be something in another part of the book that sheds light on this topic.

    As descendant planetary ministers on Urantia they were material sex creatures capable of procreating material offspring (as some of them later did). What we cannot satisfactorily explain is how these one hundred could function in the parental role on a supermaterial level, but that is exactly what happened. A supermaterial (nonsexual) liaison of a male and a female member of the corporeal staff resulted in the appearance of the first-born of the primary midwayers

  15. It can be assumed that from the following quote:

    (606.7)53:6.4 “Upon the default of my immediate superior it devolved upon me to assume command of the angelic hosts of Jerusem as the titular director of the confused seraphic affairs of the system. I was morally upheld by the Melchizedeks, ably assisted by a majority of the Material Sons, deserted by a tremendous group of my own order, but magnificently supported by the ascendant mortals on Jerusem.

    That Manotia’s “immediate superior” was her compliment, whereby, she was left alone to take over the duties her primary had defaulted, therefore she was the secondary, but when acting as an individual was supported, or “morally upheld by the Melchizedeks”.

    You know, that one slipped by me.  So this tells me if an angel sins, it does not mean its complement will too.

    BB

  16. @Midi I never wanted to talk about Chris and I wasn’t the person who brought Chris up. BB did…

    #9600

    TUB

    Participant
    Just to touch on one question you had BB. The part about destroying that being with liaison forces is interesting. It would seem that these beings became extremely deluded as a result of joining the rebellion. There is no way for them to destroy a being lol. Only the executioners can do that. Liaison forces are just interfacing energies. Spiritual beings can pro-create through liaison, it’s like spiritual sex. In other words these beings where going to try and rape this being to death.

     

    Me here:  Well let us be consistent and honest at least….this is the first mention of these issues on this topic, page 2 post #9600 – “…destroying…with liaison forces….to try and rape this being to death.”  All words repeated from the Halvorsen recording link provided later which was then listened to by myself, Bonita, and BB (at least).

    These are the concepts (and terms chosen) in dispute.  Still waiting then, for the forms of harm and destruction, if not those you presented here, and now claim no one intended as true….which begs the question – why say it and present it if it never happened or couldn’t happen (and I agree, never could and never did)?  It does sound like Scott that you (now) do agree that every being is safe from every other being in person and in mind?  So there is no source of harm or danger possible from any beings upon any other beings?  Right?

    (37.3) 2:3.5 In any universe contest between actual levels of reality, the personality of the higher level will ultimately triumph over the personality of the lower level. This inevitable outcome of universe controversy is inherent in the fact that divinity of quality equals the degree of reality or actuality of any will creature. Undiluted evil, complete error, willful sin, and unmitigated iniquity are inherently and automatically suicidal. Such attitudes of cosmic unreality can survive in the universe only because of transient mercy-tolerance pending the action of the justice-determining and fairness-finding mechanisms of the universe tribunals of righteous adjudication.

    A study of free will and its absolute sanctity of self determination adds context to both terms – harm and destruction – as I can find no reference that angels or any others may impose will or restraint or any form of violence upon any other beyond the material and mortal beings on their planet of origin and what barbarities they perform on each other and neither can any mind be “possessed” or otherwise “influenced” except by their own free will choice.  Still an interesting topic BB!!  It’s driving us all deeper into the UB for answers.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  17. So is this BIG stink over now?  Have we finally dissected this thing to death?  If so, here’s what I’ve learned:

    1. Never use the word rape.
    2. Always go to the source and decide for yourself.
    3. Students can misunderstand teachers.
    4. Teachers can be so vague that students have no choice but to misunderstand.
    5. Always present your own ideas.
    6. If you want to present someone else’s ideas, quote them and credit them.
    7. Do not try to explain something you do not fully understand.
    8. If you think you fully understand something then be willing to undergo criticism and evaluation by your peers.
    9. Be open minded to alternative views.
    10. Be forgiving.
    11. A school should have peer review, student exams and continual, open and free dialogue between student and teacher.
    12. Free education eliminates the bias caused by the need for remuneration.

     

     

     

  18. MidiChlorian wrote: It can be assumed that from the following quote:

    (606.7)53:6.4 “Upon the default of my immediate superior it devolved upon me to assume command of the angelic hosts of Jerusem as the titular director of the confused seraphic affairs of the system. I was morally upheld by the Melchizedeks, ably assisted by a majority of the Material Sons, deserted by a tremendous group of my own order, but magnificently supported by the ascendant mortals on Jerusem.

    That Manotia’s “immediate superior” was her compliment, whereby, she was left alone to take over the duties her primary had defaulted, therefore she was the secondary, but when acting as an individual was supported, or “morally upheld by the Melchizedeks”.

    You know, that one slipped by me. So this tells me if an angel sins, it does not mean its complement will too.

    B.B., The key word and phrase in the UB quote above is “devolved” and the use of “it” and “upon me” would indicate that by the default of the superior, the successive result, was not necessarily a choice of assuming command, but a result.  Where when evolving, it generally indicates a progressive move forward, and by the use of “devolved” would indicate a normal move backward.  Therefore the responsibilities and title of the superior fell upon the secondary to assume command, not much different than a battle field promotion.  This was therefore, the exhilarating feeling that came over the secondary, where if the default of the primary had not occurred, the attention of the liaison forces would still have been on the superior, now trust upon the secondary or next in command, where “liaison forces” would indicate a military type of hierarchy, or order of succession.  Where “liaison” can refer to — “the contact or connection maintained by communications between units of the armed forces or of any other organization in order to ensure concerted action, cooperation, etc.”

    Thereby, to remove or sever the secondary’s new titular position would then be the objective of the forces, and that communication having been disrupted, the goal to further disrupt the succession to an even lower form of the liaison, would be the military objective, putting the angelic hosts, even further into confusion.  These are tactics of warfare, and it could be assumed that the disruption of communication was the main objective to the rebellion.  The interruption of the circuits, would allow for the disruption of intelligence gathering.  The rebels knew what would happen because this was the third attempt of rebellion, and the first two were a test to know how the process would effect the system.

    There is a quote in Paper 53, which actually infers to the problem which would or was occurring and would support the reason for the rebellion.

  19. That is an interesting take on ignorance that I agree with completely. There is just one thing you are missing. The authors tell us that Lucifer became VERY ignorant.

    (601.1)53:0.1 LUCIFER was a brilliant primary Lanonandek Son of Nebadon. He had experienced service in many systems, had been a high counselor of his group, and was distinguished for wisdom, sagacity, and efficiency. Lucifer was number 37 of his order, and when commissioned by the Melchizedeks, he was designated as one of the one hundred most able and brilliant personalities in more than seven hundred thousand of his kind. From such a magnificent beginning, through evil and error, he embraced sin and now is numbered as one of three System Sovereigns in Nebadon who have succumbed to the urge of self and surrendered to the sophistry of spurious personal liberty — rejection of universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations, blindness to cosmic relationships.

    I would think that “blindness to cosmic relationships” would qualify as ignorance. If you can’t see any cosmic relationships you are pretty ignorant. Not to mention the whole thing about rejecting universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations.

    Scott, I’m not sure how your understanding of the UB quote above, could justify that the “The authors tell us that Lucifer became VERY ignorant.”  How are you interpreting this to make your point?  When I read this, I cannot see how you assume this inference?  Maybe, this is the problem – your perception?

  20. When I read this, I cannot see how you assume this inference?

    I agree with you Midi.  Blindness, in this instance, is more like indifference, a part of Lucifer’s attitude of rejection and disregard.  Essentially he chose to be unmindful and insensitive to his cosmic responsibilities.

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