278 posts · 10 participants · started Aug 22, 2014, 2:00 AM
Bonita, you definitely mastered the revelations in my opinion.
Well, I don’t know if that’s true but I appreciate your opinion. Actually, I think I’ve merely fine-tuned my BS-ometer over the years. I’m more like a blood hound than a master; I’ve developed a strong sense of smell from being duped too many times.
Bradly wrote:There are no checks and balances in this “institute” of “learning”….teachers need to be in a train of student, teacher, student, teacher and there needs to be some scholarly body of student/teachers to present curriculum that is text centered.
101:8.2 Belief is always limiting and binding; faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates.
132:3.4 There is never conflict between true knowledge and truth. There may be conflict between knowledge and human beliefs, beliefs colored with prejudice, distorted by fear, and dominated by the dread of facing new facts of material discovery or spiritual progress.
Regarding Chris’ institute yes there are other people working with Chris. It is not just him and his wife.
Now back to liaison.
25:1.2 The Havona Servitals are the joint creative work of the Seven Master Spirits and their associates, the Seven Supreme Power Directors. This creative collaboration comes the nearest to being the pattern for the long list of reproductions of the dual order in the evolutionary universes, extending from the creation of a Bright and Morning Star by a Creator Son-Creative Spirit liaison down to sex procreation on worlds like Urantia.
So a Bright and Morning Star is created by a (Creator Son- Creative Spirit liaison)…..The truth never suffers from honest examination.
I see Bonita hasn’t responded to her comment about a Princes Staff member having a (supposedly nonsexual) liaison with their own self.
Could you show me where I made that comment? I’m sure you misread or misunderstood something I wrote. It seems you do that a lot Scott. But if you could show me where I said that a member of the Prince’s staff could have a nonsexual liaison with him/herself, I would appreciate it because I know I never said such a thing. Another fabrication.
So Bonita I guess this goes against your theory that the Princes Staff where having Liaisons with their own self.
Again, could you please reproduce the exact quote of my words that gave you the impression that I think that the Princes staff was having liaisons with themselves? What are you suggesting? Some kind of superhuman masturbation? I’m not following you Scott.
So Bonita I guess this goes against your theory that the Princes Staff where having Liaisons with their own self.
Again, could you please reproduce the exact quote of my words that gave you the impression that I think that the Princes staff was having liaisons with themselves? What are you suggesting? Some kind of superhuman masturbation? I’m not following you Scott.
Here are your exact words
The personality is something different than mind, body, soul or spirit. It’s not a matter of turning it off or on, it’s a matter of using it to unify those other parts of the self. Only a whole self, a mature and balanced self, can expand and grow. When the staff used their personality to unify all parts of their morontia selves, they were able to produce a primary midwayer. Makes sense to me.
So your saying that a midwayer was magically produced when the staff unified the parts of their morontia selves. You obviously are aware that it took a liaison to produce a midwayer, so this seems to be your interpretation of how that liaison happened (A process where a staff member was able to unify their own self). This is your version of how this liaison which produced a midwayer happened.
Your version of how a midwayer was produced (Staff unified their morontia selves….and that somehow just magically produced a midwayer).
Lets go back to your version of “liaison forces” Bonita.
Refresh my memory. Where did I rant against Chris for suggesting that beings can have intimate liaisons? I don’t recall that. I said that I don’t think that LIAISON FORCES have anything to do with rape, procreation, cocreation, or physical contact. My point is that liaison forces are a caucus of individuals coordinating their efforts to change minds to side with the rebellion against Michael and God.
The Rebels sought the destruction of Monotia, so their plan was to get her to side with them against Michael. So they were hoping to destroy her by getting her to believe in what they believed? Holy smokes that is helarious. So they knew what they believed was going to destroy her? Yet they continued to believe in something that they knew was suicidal to believe in? Wow
I agree that there should be a system of checks and balances if there is none at Chris’ institute, Bradly. I wish Chris would actively participate in Urantia communities like ours. At least to clarify misunderstandings. It would be a travesty that his name be tarnished over misunderstandings. But then Chris probably does not really worry much about what people think of him outside his circle.
BB
So your saying that a midwayer was magically produced when the staff unified the parts of their morontia selves. You obviously are aware that it took a liaison to produce a midwayer, so this seems to be your interpretation of how that liaison happened (A process where a staff member was able to unify their own self). This is your version of how this liaison which produced a midwayer happened.
If you read my exact words, I never mention anything about the Prince’s staff having a liaison with themselves in order to produce a midwayer. I think you must not understand what I’m talking about.
I was explaining how personality fits into the picture. Personality must unify all the constituent parts of the self in order for the self to expand and grow. That refers to the soul self as well as the material self. When the personality transfers its precious powers of free will to the soul, the morontia soul becomes the decision maker rather than the material mind. When identity is completely shifted to the soul certain augmentations of perception occur which enlarge cosmic conception (130:7.8). But this is about one person’s soul expanding and growing. It is not about one person enlarging and then budding off a midwayer like the asexual reproduction of a flatworm. I think you read something into what I said that simply isn’t there. If you look closely at my last sentence, which is where I think you got lost, I used the word SELVES. That’s plural. Plural means more than one.
Scott, you do this all of the time. I’m not sure why, but I think you have a personal vendetta against me. It shows clear as day. Whatever it is that you hate about me I truly hope you overcome it and I will pray for that every day. But while I’m praying, let me address this other thing that you think is so hilarious.
TUB wrote: So they were hoping to destroy her by getting her to believe in what they believed? Holy smokes that is hilarious. So they knew what they believed was going to destroy her? Yet they continued to believe in something that they knew was suicidal to believe in? Wow
Yes, there are rebels who continue, even today, to believe in something suicidal. They are completely mad. They suffer from cosmic insanity on a scale so huge that it’s hardly comprehensible. The rebels did not believe that anybody could be destroyed, that immortality was inherent in personality possession and that resurrection was natural and automatic (53:3.5). So of course they did not believe there could be any repercussions to rebellion.
However, they were and are living in an delusional world of non-reality. They did not believe that getting Manotia to change her loyalties would really destroy her or bring her any harm at all. But Manotia had her head on straight. She knew otherwise. She knew that disloyalty is a suicidal madness and refused to accept their lies. It’s very important to realize that the quote about the liaison forces was written from Manotia’s perspective, NOT from the rebels’ perspective. She knew that she could be destroyed by believing in them and following them. They, the rebels, did not believe personality annihilation could happen; and in fact, they believed that if everyone, men and angels, had the courage to assert themselves and establish home rule, that the Ancients of Days couldn’t annihilate anyone (53:3.4). Hence the pressure to get everyone to buy into their sophistry.
Also remember that at the time all communications were severed. The rebels who were preaching secession propaganda had to do so in person (53:7.3). There’s a good likelihood that many rebel persons went together in order to convince those like Manotia to change their loyalties and go with the separatists. This would have been the liaison forces Manotia mentioned whom she believed sought her destruction by trying to get her to pledge allegiance to a cosmically insane cause. In all fairness, I don’t think all of the rebels knew what they were doing; most probably did not know all the consequences of their actions and were merely following their leaders. But good for Manotia! She knew the dangers involved and resisted, and we are all benefited by her wisdom.
I was explaining how personality fits into the picture. Personality must unify all the constituent parts of the self in order for the self to expand and grow. That refers to the soul self as well as the material self. When the personality transfers its precious powers of free will to the soul, the morontia soul becomes the decision maker rather than the material mind. When identity is completely shifted to the soul certain augmentations of perception occur which enlarge cosmic conception (130:7.8). But this is about one person’s soul expanding and growing. It is not about one person enlarging and then budding off a midwayer like the asexual reproduction of a flatworm. I think you read something into what I said that simply isn’t there. If you look closely at my last sentence, which is where I think you got lost, I used the word SELVES. That’s plural. Plural means more than one.
Okay so what exactly do you think a “liaison” is that produced a Midwayer, at least in the context of the paragraph talking about the Danite Pair of the Princes Staff? Also the Princes Staff are former humans that have been on the mansion worlds for a long time they would have long since started to transfer their identity to their soul. They wouldn’t have even been considered for the job if they hadn’t.
Yes, there are rebels who continue, even today, to believe in something suicidal. They are completely mad. They suffer from cosmic insanity on a scale so huge that it’s hardly comprehensible. The rebels did not believe that anybody could be destroyed, that immortality was inherent in personality possession and that resurrection was natural and automatic (53:3.5). So of course they did not believe there could be any repercussions to rebellion.However, they were and are living in an delusional world of non-reality. They did not believe that getting Manotia to change her loyalties would really destroy her or bring her any harm at all.
TUB wrote: Okay so what exactly do you think a “liaison” is that produced a Midwayer, at least in the context of the paragraph talking about the Danite Pair of the Princes Staff?
It doesn’t matter what I think Scott. We are told that they ” . . . accidentally discovered a phenomenon attendant upon the liaison of their morontia selves (supposedly nonsexual and nonmaterial)” (66:4.10) And that’s all we’re told about it except that every imaginable phase of soul liaison did not work. If they tried everything imaginable with their souls but accidentally discovered something with their soul selves, then one must surmise that there was a difference between what they tried with their souls and what finally worked with their soul selves. My conjecture is that it must have had something to do with personality unifying all parts of the self at the soul level FOR BOTH PARTIES.
But Manotia states that after refusing to join in on their plans against Michael they attempted to destroy her.
No she doesn’t say anything of the sort. The word AFTER does not appear anywhere in her statement. That is your opinion and to you it appears black and white, but some of us do not agree with your black and white assessment. The only word she gives us is the word AND which does not mean AFTER.
Currently I am re-reading the rebellion papers and came across two statements I am having trouble reconciling. Would like some input if possible. Thanks.
53:5.6 “There was war in heaven … was not a physical battle as such a conflict might be conceived on Urantia… While displaying none of the barbarities so characteristic of physical warfare on the immature worlds, this conflict was far more deadly; material life is in jeopardy in material combat, but the war in heaven was fought in terms of life eternal.” and…
53:6.3 “… I refused to participate in the projected insult to Michael; and the powerful rebels sought my destruction by means of the liaison forces they had arranged. There was a tremendous upheaval on Jerusem, but not a single loyal seraphim was harmed.”
What is the nature of this “destruction” and “harm” the second quote refers to if this war in heaven does not exhibit any of the barbarities normally associated with material battle?
Me here: So….perhaps we are ready to re-approach the actual topic introduced by BB with much to consider from many voices as to the questions asked here? What is the nature of the destruction and harm?
My take is that both terms – harm and destruction – derive from the same risk – the free will choice of disloyalty and rebellion. Manotia’s potential destruction arises from this choice which every celestial faced. Those who were “harmed” (if any were as this side of things is not addressed in the quote) were those who chose disloyalty since not a single “loyal” seraphim ever was harmed. And what then, their form of harm? They have not been destroyed by any authority and we are told elsewhere that betrayal and disloyalty are great and self destructive sins; therefor, IMO, the harm is the damage self inflicted by disloyalty that occurs to mind and spirit. The rebels were not beaten nor tortured nor killed (as yet), so what then is meant by “harmed” if not the mind/spirit result of disloyalty itself?
The potential destruction, IMO, was Manotia’s cognition of the fact that eternal life was at stake by the choice between loyalty to Michael or loyalty to the liaison of rebel minds seeking to persuade other minds of their cause. I find no inference here that Manotia was ever deluded or even confused personally and knew the stakes of this choice. Personally I don’t find this at all confusing, confounding, complicated, mysterious, or in need of interpretation….that is when read in context of the whole text, especially that part which teaches that every mind and every being has an absolute, inviolate right to self determination and free will choice. How else can it be understood if one believes that?? What are you thinking now BB?
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
What are you even talking about??? Chris never said that Manotia was in danger, or that any being was in danger of being harmed by liaison forces or anything like that. He actually said that Manotia couldn’t be harmed.
Me here: Actually he only inferred it I guess by the liaison forces seeking her destruction, which was (oh heck, never mind THAT merry go around again)….it was you who introduced the notions of mind gang rape, and the “literal” destruction of Manotia (the word is not in the quote), and that this occurred “after” Manotia’s decision (again, not in text). And the “big soul” thing still hasn’t been integrated in any way that is relevant to the topic; we all know this one form of liaison creates midwayers and has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand. The energy “overlap” is another confusion of irrelevancy to the topic. What has the liaison of procreation or co-creation have to do with mental/spiritual gang rape – your definition provided for the liaison in this particular text? Was there a conspiracy of rape? Did the disloyals believe they could rape, harm, and destroy Manotia? This second hand “knowledge” you introduced has led us down quite a rabbit hole Scott. But the time spent by us here to actually listen to the original source of such claims explains much about the confusions any might endure as the result of its presentation – you got all the key words right, and I think, Chris’ actual presentation meaning….which is undeniably wrong on many levels. Suppose we leave Chris out of this…and any second hand teachings.
What do you think was the danger and harm in the text quoted. What/who was the source of danger? What harm might have come from this source of danger? Who was actually harmed by the decisions made? And finally, you do believe that every being is absolutely protected by all universe reality in their individual self hood, being, and mind don’t you?? Absolutely and irrevocably and without exception? And don’t you think Manotia knew this too?
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
I refused to participate in the projected insult to Michael; and the powerful rebels sought my destruction by means of the liaison forces they had arranged.
This sounds so human. Thought critters like these would be free of human revenge like emotions or am I filtering the event through my own human like emotions or is the message here that revenge transcends the finite and we’ll always need to deal with it – not making sense to me.
I refused to participate in the projected insult to Michael; and the powerful rebels sought my destruction by means of the liaison forces they had arranged. This sounds so human. Thought critters like these would be free of human revenge like emotions or am I filtering the event through my own human like emotions or is the message here that revenge transcends the finite and we’ll always need to deal with it – not making sense to me.
You are exactly right nelson, its so childish and so human. They get rejected by Manotia so they sought to destroy her. We don’t need to over complicate something that is so trivially obvious. They wanted her to participate in their little scheme of rebellion and she stood them up. So they got bitter and tried to destroy her. Its not making any sense to me how such a simple line can be so confusing to people.
TUB wrote: Okay so what exactly do you think a “liaison” is that produced a Midwayer, at least in the context of the paragraph talking about the Danite Pair of the Princes Staff?It doesn’t matter what I think Scott. We are told that they ” . . . accidentally discovered a phenomenon attendant upon the liaison of their morontia selves (supposedly nonsexual and nonmaterial)” (66:4.10) And that’s all we’re told about it except that every imaginable phase of soul liaison did not work. If they tried everything imaginable with their souls but accidentally discovered something with their soul selves, then one must surmise that there was a difference between what they tried with their souls and what finally worked with their soul selves. My conjecture is that it must have had something to do with personality unifying all parts of the self at the soul level FOR BOTH PARTIES.
Speaking of fabricating things. Where in the book does it say that “soul liaison did not work”??? I can’t find that anywhere in the text.
Childish enough to make me feel that its not very likely regardless of the simple line.
Is it much different than the idea that Lucifer and his minions gloated over the destruction of Jesus on the cross when poor (human) Judas felt enough guilt and remorse that he did suicide? Don’t make sense either.
The literal in either case just don’t do it for me.
Brad: 53:6.3 “… I refused to participate in the projected insult to Michael; and the powerful rebels sought my destruction by means of the liaison forces they had arranged. There was a tremendous upheaval on Jerusem, but not a single loyal seraphim was harmed.”
What is the nature of this “destruction” and “harm” the second quote refers to if this war in heaven does not exhibit any of the barbarities normally associated with material battle?
I never said that any being was harmed or was in danger of being harmed, and neither did Chris you have been hung up on that for a long time now. Go back and try and find a place where I said that Manotia or any being is actually going to be harmed if you think otherwise. Please go back and listen to Chris again and notice that he never said that any being is actually going to be harmed. That is why Chris mentioned a Master Physical Controller, even if an angel wanted to harm another being there is no way they will actually succeed because there are vastly more powerful beings in the area that can easily stop them.
