176 posts · 14 participants · started Nov 26, 2017, 11:47 PM
Cessation of existence requires multiple courts and councils. There must be an unbroken confirmation beginning at the planetary level, the local universe level and then to the Ancients of Days where it is confirmed.
Exactly. The Ancients of Days make the final judgment; no one else.
Ancients of Days make final confirmation of judgments made by others. It’s simply the end of the line. In fact, Ancients of Days depend upon the judgment of Universal Censors.
19:4.1 Even the Ancients of Days do not sit in judgment except in association with the Universal Censors.
Ancients of Days make final confirmation of judgments made by others.
You attempt to make a distinction which shifts the responsibility for final judgment from the courts of the Ancients of Days to lower courts. But the supreme rulers of Orvonton do not delegate this very great responsibility to others. They and they alone make the final judgments in these matters. To do otherwise would be less than divine.
In all the vast universe of universes they alone are invested with the high powers of final executive judgment concerning the eternal extinction of will creatures. (18:3.7)
The divine conclusion comes from the Universal Censor whose decision is final and perfect. Ancients of Days are the final confirmation of those decisions, they formally declare the judgment as a fact.
(218.3) 19:4.5 The Censors are universe totaling personalities. When a thousand witnesses have given testimony — or a million — when the voice of wisdom has spoken and the counsel of divinity has recorded, when the testimony of ascendant perfection has been added, then the Censor functions, and there is immediately revealed an unerring and divine totaling of all that has transpired; and such a disclosure represents the divine conclusion, the sum and substance of a final and perfect decision. Therefore, when a Censor has spoken, no one else may speak, for the Censor has depicted the true and unmistakable total of all that has gone before. When he speaks, there is no appeal.
Again, a distinction without a difference.
“In all the vast universe of universes they alone are invested with the high powers of final executive judgment concerning the eternal extinction of will creatures. ” (18:3.7)
Yes. The Ancients of Days are the high powers of final executive judgment.
2:3.3 . . . and then, when sentence of extinction has been confirmed on high, the execution is by the direct act of those judges residential on, and operating from, the headquarters of the superuniverse.
15:12.2 The Sons of the local universes can decree the survival of mortal man, but only the Ancients of Days may sit in executive judgment on the issues of eternal life and death.
18:3.7 In power, scope of authority, and extent of jurisdiction the Ancients of Days are the most powerful and mighty of any of the direct rulers of the time-space creations. In all the vast universe of universes they alone are invested with the high powers of final executive judgmentconcerning the eternal extinction of will creatures. And all three Ancients of Days must participate in the final decrees of the supreme tribunal of a superuniverse.
But, the Ancients of Days do not sit in jugement except in association with the Universal Censors.
19:4.1 There are exactly eight billion Universal Censors in existence. These unique beings are the judgment of Deity. They are not merely reflective of the decisions of perfection; they are the judgment of the Paradise Trinity. Even the Ancients of Days do not sit in judgment except in association with the Universal Censors.
19:4.4 Whenever and wherever a Universal Censor is present, then and there is the judgment of Deity. And since the Censors always render their verdicts in liaison with Perfectors of Wisdom and Divine Counselors, such decisions embrace the united wisdom, counsel, and judgment of the Paradise Trinity. In this juridical trio the Perfector of Wisdom would be the “I was,” the Divine Counselor the “I will be,” but the Universal Censor is always “I am.”
It says, “. . . they [Universal Censors] are an organic part of all dispensational adjudications of the evolutionary worlds.” (19:4.3 ) which may in part pertain to the adjudication of individuals upon mortal dissolution. As I see it there are only three possibilities upon death: head for mansonia; sleep until the next dispensation; extinction.
112:4.2 [Part III]In some way not fully understood, the Universal Censors are able to gain possession of an epitome of the human life as it is embodied in the Adjuster’s duplicate transcription of the spiritual values and morontia meanings of the indwelt mind. The Censors are able to appropriate the Adjuster’s version of the deceased human’s survival character and spiritual qualities, and all this data, together with the seraphic records, is available for presentation at the time of the adjudication of the individual concerned. This information is also used to confirm those superuniverse mandates which make it possible for certain ascenders immediately to begin their morontia careers, upon mortal dissolution to proceed to the mansion worlds ahead of the formal termination of a planetary dispensation.
Has anyone done the numbers? We do know 55 million Urantians die every year. We know there are 619 planets in the system. Assuming Urantia is average (probably not), that’s 34 billion.
But let’s low-ball it and say the average is 5.5 million deaths per planet, times 619 equals 3.4 billion per year, system-wide. That 187 million number is about 1/15th of 3 billion. So, do one in 15 survive? Maybe, but there are factors we can’t know, like: Was there a recent graduation from Jerusem when the 187 million count was done? Let’s say there was, and the class that graduated had 10 times that 187 million. That would total 1.87 billion. But how often does a class graduate? Once every system year (seems much too fast)? Assuming that does happen every year (which is about as long as Urantia’s year), that would mean about one in two survive….So much we don’t know.
Richard E Warren
But, the Ancients of Days do not sit in judgment except in association with the Universal Censors.
I agree and never disputed this. What I took issue with was Bonita’s curiously insistent assertion that the censors actually make the final judgment about personality extinction and the Ancients of Days only confirm it, as though they do nothing more than just put an official stamp on something decided by someone else. Concerning survival or non-survival, the Universal Censors present and interpret essential evidence in the courts of the Ancients of Days, who make the final decision.
The evidence for or against an individual, a planet, system, constellation, or universe is presented and interpreted by the Censors. (15:12.1)
The Censors do make final judgments in other areas and on other matters. But, as you cite above, when the matter under deliberation is personality extinction, it must be adjudicated in the supreme tribunal of a superuniverse:
In all the vast universe of universes they alone are invested with the high powers of final executive judgment concerning the eternal extinction of will creatures. And all three Ancients of Days must participate in the final decrees of the supreme tribunal of a superuniverse. (18:3.7)
You reference how “those superuniverse mandates (i.e. those which come from the courts of the Ancients of Days) which make it possible for certain ascenders to immediately begin their morontia careers” rely upon the Censors’ appropriation of “the Adjuster’s version of the human’s survival character and spiritual qualities, and all this data, together with the seraphic records” is evidence in the adjudication of the individual. A similar procedure is followed before a final judgment of personality extinction is mandated by the Ancients of Days, who consider evidence given by the Adjuster, the Seraphim, and the Censor and their reflective associates.
Spiritual (soul) death. If and when mortal man has finally rejected survival, when he has been pronounced spiritually insolvent, morontially bankrupt, in the conjoint opinion of the Adjuster and the surviving seraphim, when such co-ordinate advice has been recorded on Uversa, and after the Censors and their reflective associates have verified these findings, thereupon do the rulers of Orvonton order the immediate release of the indwelling Monitor. (112:3.2)
Has anyone done the numbers? We do know 55 million Urantians die every year. We know there are 619 planets in the system. Assuming Urantia is average (probably not), that’s 34 billion.
But let’s low-ball it and say the average is 5.5 million deaths per planet, times 619 equals 3.4 billion per year, system-wide. That 187 million number is about 1/15th of 3 billion. So, do one in 15 survive? Maybe, but there are factors we can’t know, like: Was there a recent graduation from Jerusem when the 187 million count was done? Let’s say there was, and the class that graduated had 10 times that 187 million. That would total 1.87 billion. But how often does a class graduate? Once every system year (seems much too fast)? Assuming that does happen every year (which is about as long as Urantia’s year), that would mean about one in two survive….So much we don’t know.
I agree with you Rick.
What’s interesting about the low number of survivors reported in the UB is that it wasn’t inflated to include the possibilities you referenced. That the 187 million, when counted, was a number after a graduation, or some other thing which would reduce the number.
In other words, if 187 million is an anomaly and not an average, why would they report it that way and not provide rounded up numbers like they do more or less for everything else.
Given how the UB seems to emphasize mercy and so forth, why wouldn’t the UB provide a number of survivors more indicative of this, which would make the number much higher?
I think the UB makes it very clear telling us it’s 187 million (instead of 187 trillion for example) what the significance of the message is.
But again
What was the population of Urantia when Lucifer’s replacement was installed maybe 200000 years ago? How many were ascenders as % of that population? Seems the numbers that Posted in this thread assume the current post Pentecost 7 billion ???
After 7 pages of quotes, opinions, ideas, thoughts and speculations, I think the essence of this entire question, and its answer, lies in what Bradly posted back on page 5:
How high is the standard for the material children of time who live such a brief life without benefit of example and knowledge for God’s love to deliver survival to those worlds designed for the very purpose of receiving such little ones for education and rehabilitation? What again is the purpose of these receiving worlds? Certainly not to receive those worthy of and ready for fusion!
The entire purpose of our existence is to overcome imperfection to become more like God. Being imperfect is the point! Slow, steady progress is the watchword; and such progress is intended to continue after mortal death.
Here’s a thought
I recall reading about the second area of Paradise and trying to figure how many finalaters they made space for from each super universe. I think it was a larger number than we have words for. Many powers of ten.
Has anyone done the numbers? We do know 55 million Urantians die every year. We know there are 619 planets in the system. Assuming Urantia is average (probably not), that’s 34 billion. But let’s low-ball it and say the average is 5.5 million deaths per planet, times 619 equals 3.4 billion per year, system-wide. That 187 million number is about 1/15th of 3 billion. So, do one in 15 survive? Maybe, but there are factors we can’t know, like: Was there a recent graduation from Jerusem when the 187 million count was done? Let’s say there was, and the class that graduated had 10 times that 187 million. That would total 1.87 billion. But how often does a class graduate? Once every system year (seems much too fast)? Assuming that does happen every year (which is about as long as Urantia’s year), that would mean about one in two survive….So much we don’t know.
I agree with you Rick. What’s interesting about the low number of survivors reported in the UB is that it wasn’t inflated to include the possibilities you referenced. That the 187 million, when counted, was a number after a graduation, or some other thing which would reduce the number. In other words, if 187 million is an anomaly and not an average, why would they report it that way and not provide rounded up numbers like they do more or less for everything else. Given how the UB seems to emphasize mercy and so forth, why wouldn’t the UB provide a number of survivors more indicative of this, which would make the number much higher? I think the UB makes it very clear telling us it’s 187 million (instead of 187 trillion for example) what the significance of the message is.
For the sake of clarity (and a modicum of accuracy), the number of “survivors” has nothing to do with the quote in question or the number of 187 million…which is given as the number of mortal ascendant “citizens” of the System Capital at the time. Survivors in the System are comprised of 3 groups…..those on the System worlds (50+) including the receiving or Mansion Worlds; the sleeping survivors in slumber from the System’s material evolutionary planets; and those who will survive who still live and breath on the evolutionary worlds.
Also, the 187 trillion number you cite would require that all 1000 inhabited, evolutionary worlds be “inhabited” and each would need to average 187 billion residents +/-. It seems to me the topic and the math are both complicated enough without adding such hyperbole.
So, please tell us ….”what the significance of the message is.” And give us your estimations for the populations of the other 3 groups of survivors in the System. Thank you.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Bradly wrote:For the sake of clarity (and a modicum of accuracy), the number of “survivors” has nothing to do with the quote in question or the number of 187 million…which is given as the number of mortal ascendant “citizens” of the System Capital at the time.
I was thinking, the quote says ascendent mortals. Do they mean ascending sons? Mortals don’t get to call themselves ascending sons until after they fuse with their Adjusters. (40:6.1; 40:7.2) We know that many mortals make it to Jerusem as provisional citizens without having fused with their Adjusters (66:4.9). We know because we have been told about the Caligastia one hundred who were chosen from a group of such provisional citizen volunteers. So, I’m not sure how they’re using that word, ascendent, or whether it includes all the provisional citizens.
40.6.1 6. THE FAITH SONS OF GOD The mortal races stand as the representatives of the lowest order of intelligent and personal creation. You mortals are divinely beloved, and every one of you may choose to accept the certain destiny of a glorious experience, but you are not yet by nature of the divine order; you are wholly mortal. You will be reckoned as ascending sons the instant fusion takes place, but the status of the mortals of time and space is that of faith sons prior to the event of the final amalgamation of the surviving mortal soul with some type of eternal and immortal spirit.
40.7.2 Your own races of surviving mortals belong to this group of the ascending Sons of God. You are now planetary sons, evolutionary creatures derived from the Life Carrier implantations and modified by the Adamic-life infusion, hardly yet ascending sons; but you are indeed sons of ascension potential — even to the highest heights of glory and divinity attainment — and this spiritual status of ascending sonship you may attain by faith and by freewill co-operation with the spiritualizing activities of the indwelling Adjuster. When you and your Adjusters are finally and forever fused, when you two are made one, even as in Christ Michael the Son of God and the Son of Man are one, then in fact have you become the ascending sons of God.
66:4.9 This group, while enjoying provisional citizenship on Jerusem, were as yet unfused with their Thought Adjusters; and when they volunteered and were accepted for planetary service in liaison with the descending orders of sonship, their Adjusters were detached. But these Jerusemites were superhuman beings — they possessed souls of ascendant growth. During the mortal life in the flesh the soul is of embryonic estate; it is born (resurrected) in the morontia life and experiences growth through the successive morontia worlds. And the souls of the Caligastia one hundred had thus expanded through the progressive experiences of the seven mansion worlds to citizenship status on Jerusem.
53:7.12 [Part II] It was over two years of system time from the beginning of the “war in heaven” until the installation of Lucifer’s successor. But at last the new Sovereign came, landing on the sea of glass with his staff. I was among the reserves mobilized on Edentia by Gabriel, and I well remember the first message of Lanaforge to the Constellation Father of Norlatiadek. It read: “Not a single Jerusem citizen was lost. Every ascendant mortal survived the fiery trial and emerged from the crucial test triumphant and altogether victorious.” And on to Salvington, Uversa, and Paradise went this message of assurance that the survival experience of mortal ascension is the greatest security against rebellion and the surest safeguard against sin. This noble Jerusem band of faithful mortals numbered just 187,432,811.
Cole’s question concerns the number of faithful mortals of Jerusem citizenship – “a noble band” – at the time Lanaforge was installed. When they say “noble band” aren’t they inferring the number of members in the group was small?
Has anyone done the numbers? We do know 55 million Urantians die every year. We know there are 619 planets in the system. Assuming Urantia is average (probably not), that’s 34 billion. But let’s low-ball it and say the average is 5.5 million deaths per planet, times 619 equals 3.4 billion per year, system-wide. That 187 million number is about 1/15th of 3 billion. So, do one in 15 survive? Maybe, but there are factors we can’t know, like: Was there a recent graduation from Jerusem when the 187 million count was done? Let’s say there was, and the class that graduated had 10 times that 187 million. That would total 1.87 billion. But how often does a class graduate? Once every system year (seems much too fast)? Assuming that does happen every year (which is about as long as Urantia’s year), that would mean about one in two survive….So much we don’t know.
I agree with you Rick. What’s interesting about the low number of survivors reported in the UB is that it wasn’t inflated to include the possibilities you referenced. That the 187 million, when counted, was a number after a graduation, or some other thing which would reduce the number. In other words, if 187 million is an anomaly and not an average, why would they report it that way and not provide rounded up numbers like they do more or less for everything else. Given how the UB seems to emphasize mercy and so forth, why wouldn’t the UB provide a number of survivors more indicative of this, which would make the number much higher? I think the UB makes it very clear telling us it’s 187 million (instead of 187 trillion for example) what the significance of the message is.
For the sake of clarity (and a modicum of accuracy), the number of “survivors” has nothing to do with the quote in question or the number of 187 million…which is given as the number of mortal ascendant “citizens” of the System Capital at the time. Survivors in the System are comprised of 3 groups…..those on the System worlds (50+) including the receiving or Mansion Worlds; the sleeping survivors in slumber from the System’s material evolutionary planets; and those who will survive who still live and breath on the evolutionary worlds. Also, the 187 trillion number you cite would require that all 1000 inhabited, evolutionary worlds be “inhabited” and each would need to average 187 billion residents +/-. It seems to me the topic and the math are both complicated enough without adding such hyperbole. So, please tell us ….”what the significance of the message is.” And give us your estimations for the populations of the other 3 groups of survivors in the System. Thank you.
I can’t estimate the numbers but to me, the significance of the message of the UB is that if I don’t pay attention, I could get confused and end up not surviving .
53:7.12 [Part II] It was over two years of system time from the beginning of the “war in heaven” until the installation of Lucifer’s successor. But at last the new Sovereign came, landing on the sea of glass with his staff. I was among the reserves mobilized on Edentia by Gabriel, and I well remember the first message of Lanaforge to the Constellation Father of Norlatiadek. It read: “Not a single Jerusem citizen was lost. Every ascendant mortal survived the fiery trial and emerged from the crucial test triumphant and altogether victorious.” And on to Salvington, Uversa, and Paradise went this message of assurance that the survival experience of mortal ascension is the greatest security against rebellion and the surest safeguard against sin. This noble Jerusem band of faithful mortals numbered just 187,432,811.
More information about this “noble band” of ascendant mortals who had residency status on Jerusem at the time.
53:7.10[Part II]The ascending mortals were vulnerable, but they withstood the sophistries of rebellion better than the lower spirits. While many on the lower mansion worlds, those who had not attained final fusion with their Adjusters, fell, it is recorded to the glory of the wisdom of the ascension scheme that not a single member of the Satania ascendant citizenship resident on Jerusem participated in the Lucifer rebellion.
30:4.13[Part I]These dispensational classes of world pilgrims are utilized for group morontia activities in the work of the local universes. There is a great advantage in the mobilization of such enormous groups; they are thus kept together for long periods of effective service.
I can’t estimate the numbers but to me, the significance of the message of the UB is that if I don’t pay attention, I could get confused and end up not surviving .
Another direct contradiction of the UB….can’t happen!! 
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
(608.6) 53:7.10 The ascending mortals were vulnerable, but they withstood the sophistries of rebellion better than the lower spirits. While many on the lower mansion worlds, those who had not attained final fusion with their Adjusters, fell, it is recorded to the glory of the wisdom of the ascension scheme that not a single member of the Satania ascendant citizenship resident on Jerusem participated in the Lucifer rebellion.
The quote above gives more credence to my theory that the 187 million ascendant citizens were fused with their Adjusters. Fused mortals are not the only citizens of Jerusem who arrive from the mansion worlds. Also, those on the mansion worlds who were not fused and fell were not necessarily annihilated. I think most of them accepted rehab. Confusion does not lead to extinction unless rehab is rejected.
67:4.7 The vast majority of all human and superhuman beings who were victims of the Lucifer rebellion on Jerusem and the various misled planets have long since heartily repented of their folly; and we truly believe that all such sincere penitents will in some manner be rehabilitated and restored to some phase of universe service when the Ancients of Days finally complete the adjudication of the affairs of the Satania rebellion, which they have so recently begun.
2:3.6 The rule of the Creator Sons in the local universes is one of creation and spiritualization. These Sons devote themselves to the effective execution of the Paradise plan of progressive mortal ascension, to the rehabilitation of rebels and wrong thinkers, but when all such loving efforts are finally and forever rejected, the final decree of dissolution is executed by forces acting under the jurisdiction of the Ancients of Days.
7:4.7 Thus do the Deities effectively co-operate in the work of creation, control, evolution, revelation, and ministration — and if required, in restoration and rehabilitation.
21:5.7 That which mercy cannot rehabilitate justice will eventually annihilate.
54:4.3 The very fact that an evil-doing creature can actually choose to do wrong — commit sin — establishes the fact of free-willness and fully justifies any length delay in the execution of justice provided the extended mercy might conduce to repentance and rehabilitation.
(608.6) 53:7.10 The ascending mortals were vulnerable, but they withstood the sophistries of rebellion better than the lower spirits. While many on the lower mansion worlds, those who had not attained final fusion with their Adjusters, fell, it is recorded to the glory of the wisdom of the ascension scheme that not a single member of the Satania ascendant citizenship resident on Jerusem participated in the Lucifer rebellion.
The quote above gives more credence to my theory that the 187 million ascendant citizens were fused with their Adjusters.
Then again, maybe they weren’t fused.
112:7.3[Part III]Fusion with the Adjuster is usually effected while the ascender is resident within his local system. It may occur on the planet of nativity as a transcendence of natural death; it may take place on any one of the mansion worlds or on the headquarters of the system; it may even be delayed until the time of the constellation sojourn; or, in special instances, it may not be consummated until the ascender is on the local universe capital.
47:10.6 [Part II]The mortal personality initiated on the evolutionary worlds and tabernacled in the flesh — indwelt by the Mystery Monitors and invested by the Spirit of Truth — is not fully mobilized, realized, and unified until that day when such a Jerusem citizen is given clearance for Edentia and proclaimed a true member of the morontia corps of Nebadon — an immortal survivor of Adjuster association, a Paradise ascender, a personality of morontia status, and a true child of the Most Highs.
