200 Million Mortal Ascenders on Jerusem
176 posts · 14 participants · started Nov 26, 2017, 11:47 PM
- I have read Paper 53 many times and have always wondered about the number posted at the end of the paragraph (see below). It states that roughly 200 Million mortals were on Jerusem at the installation of Lucifer’s successor. If this is the total number of mortal ascenders on Jerusem….it seems small if there were approximately 600 inhabited worlds in Satania at that time. Urantia, a relatively young member of the system at number 606, already has a population of 7+ Billion and then you consider some average for all of the others in the system. Some of this could have to do with residence time and I know that the path is narrow…but it still seems small (?). How long do you think we will be in the local system (average)? Other thoughts?53:7.12 [Part II]It was over two years of system time from the beginning of the “war in heaven” until the installation of Lucifer’s successor. But at last the new Sovereign came, landing on the sea of glass with his staff. I was among the reserves mobilized on Edentia by Gabriel, and I well remember the first message of Lanaforge to the Constellation Father of Norlatiadek. It read: “Not a single Jerusem citizen was lost. Every ascendant mortal survived the fiery trial and emerged from the crucial test triumphant and altogether victorious.” And on to Salvington, Uversa, and Paradise went this message of assurance that the survival experience of mortal ascension is the greatest security against rebellion and the surest safeguard against sin. This noble Jerusem band of faithful mortals numbered just 187,432,811.
How long do you think we will be in the local system (average)? Other thoughts?
The first thing I would want to know is how is system time reckoned as compared to Urantia time. So when you ask about the length of time we’ll be the system, are you talking about Urantia time? Or are you talking about system time? Or another unit of time? For example mortals from the evolutionary spheres may, after their arrival on the morontia worlds, apply for admission to the artisan corps. But if you sign up to be a celestial artisan, you have duty for one thousand years of superuniverse time at least. (44:0.4)
15:7.2 Time is standardized on the headquarters of the superuniverses. The standard day of the superuniverse of Orvonton is equal to almost thirty days of Urantia time, and the Orvonton year equals one hundred standard days. This Uversa year is standard in the seventh superuniverse, and it is twenty-two minutes short of three thousand days of Urantia time, about eight and one fifth of your years.You can do the math to get the length of that assignment. I am guessing that the length of time one spends in the local system depends on other factors too, such as the nature of others types of assignments, as well as how long it takes you to stop procrastining, stop being slothful, stop avoiding problems, etc. etc., since time is no longer a factor in getting rid of those animal vestigial traits. (48:5.8 ) No doubt there are other variables too..“A thousand years in his sight are but as yesterday when it is past and as a watch in the night.”It states that roughly 200 Million mortals were on Jerusem at the installation of Lucifer’s successor.
I thought of something else. Does the number of faithful mortals on Jerusem you mention include the all of survivors who at that time were passing through the mansion worlds regime? I don’t think so. It doesn’t include those who were in the probationary nurseries, nor those who were in process of rehabilitation or those who were making up deficiencies of various sorts. It doesn’t include the number of mortals who hadn’t made the final choice to go with God. Were the 187,432,811 mortals you mention fused with their Adjusters?
53:7.10 The ascending mortals were vulnerable, but they withstood the sophistries of rebellion better than the lower spirits. While many on the lower mansion worlds, those who had not attained final fusion with their Adjusters, fell, it is recorded to the glory of the wisdom of the ascension scheme that not a single member of the Satania ascendant citizenship resident on Jerusem participated in the Lucifer rebellion.P1237:5, 112:7.3 Fusion with the Adjuster is usually effected while the ascender is resident within his local system.
I read their writing as only referring to Jerusem and that all there survived.
This reference appears to look at the number of ascenders in a snapshot (relatively small span of time). If you looked at our entire system from the perspective of a population graph at a snapshot of time, starting with the planets, moving to the Mansion and Morontia Worlds, and then to Jerusem…it seems that at any moment of time the progression/population should provide some information as to what is happening regarding the rate of survival.
I read their writing as only referring to Jerusem and that all there survived.
Yes. I am adding other thoughts on the subject. I don’t mean to detract from your question. And another thought pertains to the many, many, many sleeping survivors who have yet to arrive on the mansion worlds via special resurrections or dispensational resurrections. I counted the special resurrections on Urantia mentioned in the UB and I think the number is twenty-six. I might be wrong.
For our mutual edification:
49:6.2 From time to time, on motion of the plantetary authorities or the system rulers, special resurrections of the sleeping survivors are conducted. Such resurrections occur at least every millennium of planetary time, when not all but “many of those who sleep in the dust awake.” These special resurrections are the occasion for mobilizing special groups of ascenders for specific service in the local universe plan of mortal ascension. There are both practical reasons and sentimental associations connected with these special resurrections..49:6.3 Throughout the earlier ages of an inhabited world, many are called to the mansion spheres at the special and the millennial resurrections, but most survivors are repersonalized at the inauguration of a new dispensation associated with the advent of a divine Son of planetary service..52:5.5 On Urantia the establishment of this “new and living way” was a matter of fact as well as of truth. The isolation of Urantia in the Lucifer rebellion had suspended the procedure whereby mortals can pass, upon death, directly to the shores of the mansion worlds. Before the days of Christ Michael on Urantia all souls slept on until the dispensational or special millennial resurrections. Even Moses was not permitted to go over to the other side until the occasion of a specialresurrection, the fallen Planetary Prince, Caligastia, contesting such a deliverance. But ever since the day of Pentecost, Urantia mortals again may proceed directly to the morontia spheres..189:3.3 Notwithstanding that countless individuals having personal seraphic guardians and those achieving the requisite attainment of spiritual personality progress had gone on to mansonia during the ages subsequent to the times of Adam and Eve, and though there had been many special and millennial resurrections of Urantia sons, this was the third of the planetary roll calls, or complete dispensational resurrections. The first occurred at the time of the arrival of the Planetary Prince, the second during the time of Adam, and this, the third, signalized the morontia resurrection, the mortal transit, of Jesus of Nazareth.it seems that at any moment of time the progression/population should provide some information as to what is happening regarding the rate of survival.
Would that take into account all those asleep who are still awaiting a resurrection roll call? They wouldn’t be counted, right?
If this is the total number of mortal ascenders on Jerusem….it seems small if there were approximately 600 inhabited worlds in Satania at that time. Urantia, a relatively young member of the system at number 606, already has a population of 7+ Billion and then you consider some average for all of the others in the system.
The quote in question is about Jerusem citizens. In order to get residential status and citizenship on Jerusem, mortals must have graduated from the mansion world system. Those graduates do not all become citizens at once; they do so in groups. So I assume the 187 million is only a fraction of the total.
(538.8) 47:9.3 Now begins the formation of classes for graduation to Jerusem. You have gone from world to world as individuals, but now you prepare to depart for Jerusem in groups, although, within certain limits, an ascender may elect to tarry on the seventh mansion world for the purpose of enabling a tardy member of his earthly or mansonia working group to catch up with him.
I wonder how many ascendant mortals were on Mansion Worlds 1 – 7 at that time (10-20 times more?)?? And I wonder what the total occupancy might be compared to the average and the low (between dispensational resurrections)? Seems some world of 600+ should have a dispensational every 20-50 years?
I also wonder why it matters as we are not provided with sufficient data to determine or even extrapolate total survivorship percentages. Perhaps with good reason? The mysteries of heaven will be revealed in time…or so Grannie told me as a child.
But speculation can be fun too!
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Seems some world of 600+ should have a dispensational every 20-50 years?
What does “some world of 600+” mean?
I always thought dispensations happened in the thousands of years territory. Are you saying they’re less than a generation apart? I think I’m confused. Not the first time.
“This noble Jerusem band of faithful mortals numbered just 187,432,811.”
sounds to me like reference to a specific group as opposed to a total population.
sounds to me like reference to a specific group as opposed to a total population.
Yeah, for sure. There are a lot of visitors to Jerusem who are not citizens, and there are many citizens who are not ascenders. I’d say it’s a small subgroup of the total population. I mean, there’s all those Material Sons & Daughters with their families, a huge group. Then there’s the angels and midwayers, and the ascenders. Plus, there are the Melchizedek teachers, whom I assume get citizen status, but can’t remember.
(518.1) 45:7.5 There are many elective bodies on Jerusem, and they are voted into authority from time to time by three orders of citizenship — the Material Sons and Daughters, the seraphim and their associates, including midway creatures, and the ascending mortals. To receive nomination for representative honor a candidate must have gained requisite recognition from the Melchizedek schools of administration.
. . . the special resurrections on Urantia mentioned in the UB and I think the number is twenty-six. I might be wrong.
I found the place where twenty-six special resurrections is mentioned.
76:6.2 They did not long rest in the oblivion of the unconscious sleep of the mortals of the realm. On the third day after Adam’s death, the second following his reverent burial, the orders of Lanaforge, sustained by the acting Most High of Edentia and concurred in by the Union of Days on Salvington, acting for Michael, were placed in Gabriel’s hands, directing the special roll call of the distinguished survivors of the Adamic default on Urantia. And in accordance with this mandate of special resurrection, number twenty-six of the Urantia series, Adam and Eve were repersonalized and reassembled in the resurrection halls of the mansion worlds of Satania together with 1,316 of their associates in the experience of the first garden. Many other loyal souls had already been translated at the time of Adam’s arrival, which was attended by a dispensational adjudication of both the sleeping survivors and of the living qualified ascenders.I wonder what those resurrection mandates have to say. Seems there are several kinds of resurrections.52:5.5 On Urantia the establishment of this “new and living way” was a matter of fact as well as of truth. The isolation of Urantia in the Lucifer rebellion had suspended the procedure whereby mortals can pass, upon death, directly to the shores of the mansion worlds. Before the days of Christ Michael on Urantia all souls slept on until the dispensational or special millennial resurrections. Even Moses was not permitted to go over to the other side until the occasion of a special resurrection, the fallen Planetary Prince, Caligastia, contesting such a deliverance. But ever since the day of Pentecost, Urantia mortals again may proceed directly to the morontia spheres.Seems some world of 600+ should have a dispensational every 20-50 years?
What does “some world of 600+” mean? I always thought dispensations happened in the thousands of years territory. Are you saying they’re less than a generation apart? I think I’m confused. Not the first time.
Sorry for the confusion….if every world of 600+ worlds has a dispensational resurrection every 1-5,000 years, then there is a dispensational event on Mansion World 1 every decade or more – not daily, monthly, or even yearly. There are busy times and slow times.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
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Don’t overlook the possibility that a huge class might have just graduated to the constellation, at the time that number was tallied. Not having all the facts means we can’t speculate overmuch about the meaning of that number.
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Richard E Warren
Sorry for the confusion….if every world of 600+ worlds has a dispensational resurrection every 1-5,000 years, then there is a dispensational event on Mansion World 1 every decade or more – not daily, monthly, or even yearly. There are busy times and slow times.
Oooooh, now I get it. Thanks for the clarification.
I agree with Cole, that number is tiny.
What I think it indicates is how young this local universe was at that time. I’m not sure just how long ago this happened but, I think it signifies that most of the inhabited worlds did not have large populations. All you would need is 20 planets with populations like ours now and the numbers would be much larger.
Currently about 55 million people die each year with our 7 plus billion population.
At the time of Christ our planet’s population was very small.
Another consideration would be the time necessary to get from mansion world one to Jerusem. Perhaps it takes a few hundred years or much more. Our population has only grown significantly in the last 70 years.
These could be some of the reasons for that low number.
Paul
Rick….Possible, but even if you doubled or tripled the number….it would still seem quite small.
I agree with you Cole. The number of citizens (faithful mortals) on Jerusem when the rebellion occurred about 200,000 years ago seems surprisingly low, regardless of how many were waiting in the wings at the time.
We have only to consider that 607 planets were inhabited at the time, the oldest being Anova, which is described as being “in an advanced stage of progressive civilization.” Even if we assume an average minimum population of 1 billion on each (which is probably very low), then these planets would have generated close to a trillion beings at any one point in time.
To my mind, it seems clear that the number of citizens referred to in the quote was the total number of ascenders resident on Jerusem at the time. If you include Material Sons and others, then the total number of ascenders would be even less.
“Not a single Jerusem citizen was lost. Every ascendant mortal survived the fiery trial and emerged from the crucial test triumphant and altogether victorious.”
I think the elephant in the room here is that many of us are unwilling to accept the idea that few mortals survive life after death. There is little in the book to support any notion that survival is the inevitable default. Lucifer is the only one who claimed that everybody would survive if it wasn’t for those interfering Ancients of Days (see 53:3).
Why would the Sons of God, whole hosts of the Holy Spirit, and trillions of Adjusters spend so much time trying to save souls if survival was easy? Why is it that those mortals who spread the word and save souls on the planets receive such high status (e.g. Moses, Elijah, Ellanora)?
The book says material linked minds cannot survive mortal death (see 1:3.7). And even those humanists who can intellectually deny God and yet be morally good and honest are devoid of survival values (see 102.7.4).
I believe Parts 1-3 make the requirements for survival quite clear, and Jesus reiterates all of these points in Part 4. To sum it up, survival requires:
- Faith – that we are sons of God.
- Spiritual motivation – the desire to know God.
- Consecration to our Father’s will – cooperation with the divine Spirit.
- Identification with the Father’s spirit. “Sooner or later we all become aware that all creature growth is proportional to Father identification.” 106:9.11
- Continuously making supreme decisions essential to eternal survival.
I challenge you to look around and then to honestly ask yourself – how many people with these qualities or commitments do you know?
Throughout the book, references or allusions are made about individuals who refused or failed of survival. Refusal is even possible after being resurrected in morontia form (see 111.3.1). And Jesus warns us several times not to be presumptuous with God’s mercy, that we should forever remain vigilante in our progress.
I don’t believe the morontia worlds are as crowded as we like to think. And it is unlikely that being Urantians gives us any special advantage for survival. In fact, the planet is so backward and confused, the survival rates are probably much lower than those of a normal world. Granted, we received a Creator Son, the Spirit of Truth, Adjusters, and this revelation – but that’s because we need it. All in all, it’s a lot of wonderful help, but none of these spiritual endowments are allowed to interfere with our free will. Only our decisions can make any real difference.
I don’t think anyone here has yet addressed the issues of the relative number of Jerusem Ascender Citizens and the numbers of survivors on the Mansion Worlds and the sleeping survivors awaiting dispensational awakening on the 600+ mortal worlds…what’s the ratios? Very important numbers…not provided…but reasonable speculation could easily reach hundreds of billions in total I think.
I find it a little confusing that there are students of the UB who conclude it is less than a presentation on love, mercy, hope, patience, and eternal kindness ministry…the entirety of time and space is designed for the ascension experience and I’ve read nothing that teaches or infers that this short mortal life is the primary cutoff mechanism for eternal choices….don’t jive at all.
I also find it an interesting critical judgment on the status of our world and the spiritual standing of 7 billion souls…so many apparently so unworthy compared to some of us….though how many of us know anything about those 7 billion souls…except by the twisted, headline seeking media of distortion, escape, and misinformation? So many people I’ve met every day for 60+ years demonstrate hope, love, faith, kindness, and so many fruits of the spirit…by far most compared to some. I wonder if the one who sees and judges is the source of their own low opinions of so many others rather than any true or objective, even reasonable opinion of such disappointment in others.
Does the Son deliver the gift of the Son’s Spirit and the flood of TA’s to such a despicable place? Is the UB given due to progress or its lack? Such discussions as to the worthiness of others and our world seems very problematic and reflective of underlying personal confusions, anxieties, and/or superiority…..truly lacking humility it would seem to me.
The requirements for fusion are far greater than those for mortal survival….or so I understand the teachings to clearly and redundantly say…cover to cover. What is hope? What is faith? What is love-response? How many truly embrace sin to the point of iniquity and soul killing choices? How many have enough knowledge and experience to make a conscious final rejection? Is even Judas so condemned?
An interesting discussion and glad for all the voices. I’m going to the Mansion Worlds and Jurusem and Paradise and I was before the UB came to me….and I’m not all that special….just another tadpole with hope and trust and doing the best I know how on such a world.
One little point…..no midwayers, angels, or Materials begin ascension until Light and Life by world and by system…pretty sure all the ascenders in the quote are mortal ascenders. Small point….as is the number 200,000,000 to the issue at hand IMO.
The 200,000,000 number is hardly evidence to the conclusion opinionated here….not until the other ratios requested are provided.
An interesting topic that is related here at the Forum on Undying Hope and Suffering:
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Why would the Sons of God, whole hosts of the Holy Spirit, and trillions of Adjusters spend so much time trying to save souls if survival was easy?
Because every single personality is essential to the Supreme. Also, there’s the universal law of love where the less of love a creature has the greater their need for it and the greater the heavenly response. And, I assert that survival is easy since they tell us even a child can do it.
156:5.11 The less of love in any creature’s nature, the greater the love need, and the more does divine love seek to satisfy such need.
117:4.2 Throughout the grand universe the Supreme struggles for expression. His divine evolution is in measure predicated on the wisdom-action of every personality in existence. . . . But if a creature rejects the eternal career, that part of the Supreme which was dependent on this creature’s choice experiences inescapable delay, a deprivation which must be compensated by substitutional or collateral experience; . . .
I believe Parts 1-3 make the requirements for survival quite clear, and Jesus reiterates all of these points in Part 4.
Yeah, and there is only one requirement, faith. But a simple feeble flicker will do, because salvation is a free gift. (93:4.5; 93:6.4; 94:1.5; 94:5.1; 94:7.5; 141:7.6; 150:5.3; 150:5.5; 166:3.3; 167:5.1; 193:1.2; 193:2.2)
93:4.8 2. You shall not doubt that faith is the only requirement for eternal salvation.
155:6.17 Now, mistake not, my Father will ever respond to the faintest flicker of faith. He takes note of the physical and superstitious emotions of the primitive man. And with those honest but fearful souls whose faith is so weak that it amounts to little more than an intellectual conformity to a passive attitude of assent to religions of authority, the Father is ever alert to honor and foster even all such feeble attempts to reach out for him.





