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The "Document"

213 posts · 16 participants · started Dec 31, 2016, 9:21 PM

GeneParticipant
Jan 4, 2017, 9:05 PM

MidiChlorian wrote:

Gene wrote:

why?

i don’t care to know because it is a problem I cannot solve and I rank his followers with the Jonestown koolaide drinkers, another type I don’t have the desire or energy to analyze.

the answer is eugenics

do t know what else to say about it.

Yet your here on a Urantia forum? Where you indicated earlier “Well, with my first exposure to the revelation in 1971 I met John the Baptist now residing in Sedona”, where one might assume that this person introduced you to “the revelation”, which might indicate that your interest in the UB is different from back then, if my assumption is correct? In general “eugenics” isn’t the answer, if we assume that all individuals are carriers of certain genetic traits. If this information was known, the the life carriers in the UB they would have been able to just put together a perfect package, and not having to rely on the intermingling between different races or beings, in order to augment their work. Education can be the most powerful influence to change the type of behavior problem you mention that leads persons to “the Jonestown koolaid drinkers,” and other types, where even education used by those “Jonestown” higher-ups, would be the wrong education, so what else could be helpful? I then assume your indication for “eugenics” would be directed towards the “johnstown” higher-ups. But then were does it stop? This is relevant to this topic because these specific individuals are allowed to do their bidding because of free-will and in this case the bill of right, here in the US, and in other similar countries around the world, where all one has to do is shield their beliefs under a religion or church, regardless of the true definition thereof, and they are protected to perform their will on others regardless of possible consequence. So, I’m sure that you and others would have opinions on these subjects, where “eugenics” is not the primary solution. How is it that people can be brainwashed to think differently and to do things that would otherwise be self-destructive? Even the fundamentalist UB students site the UB for these answers but really don’t understand is continence or purpose.

actually he is the apostle John, not the baptist, sorry for the error. and no, it was not he who introduced me to the revelation. He came into my life later. I worked on his and his husbands piano before they divested themselves of their great careers and belongings to head for the hills and travel off planet in invisible space ships. Even though I could see through the charade I admired them for their determination and they did help with my initial study. But the whole thing put me off to them and the revelation for a long time.

point being-frauds are easy to spot, do not feed them and they tend to go away.

i don’t have answers that would please everyone but I think I’m ok with my own interpretation of what a fraud is . One eugenic technique is just don’t feed frauds or trolls. It works.
BonitaParticipant
Jan 4, 2017, 10:14 PM

Gene wrote: “The question becomes: what is our moral responsibility toward the unstable and erratic souls, of which there are quite a few?” ill give my opinion and may get censored for it: Eugenics!

Hilarious!
BradlyParticipant
Jan 4, 2017, 10:36 PM
YEA…Gene – THAT is true wit!! Still laughing….. Hilarious indeed! Hahahahahahhaha!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
benjaminvogt96Participant
Jan 5, 2017, 2:58 AM
Wow, I did not expect this topic to become so active! Thank you everyone for the interaction and the responses, I greatly appreciate it. My email has been bombared with notifications! :D
GeneParticipant
Jan 5, 2017, 3:07 AM

benjaminvogt96 wrote:

Wow, I did not expect this topic to become so active! Thank you everyone for the interaction and the responses, I greatly appreciate it. My email has been bombared with notifications! :D

conclusions???

pray tell????
murphbParticipant
Jan 31, 2017, 4:15 AM
Bradley T.

Thanks for taking so much time and thought from your many years as a reader to give your perspective on this treatise. I have a few thoughts on the matter. One from my experience in mental health. The ego is a creeping thing when harnessed from doing its simple bragging or putting down others to feel better about oneself to more intellectual gymnastics. The more intelligent one is the more likely the ego is satiated intellectually. We should all keep that in mind. Most men especially have some forms of false ego and believe me training only made me see more and more in myself. Most of us like compliments so some maybe necessary I don’t know, but the animal appears to still need some. As rxtreme example might be the occasional patient who internalized god, usually or often someone recently sober. They were the extreme examples who would have this internalized god that always knew what someone needed. Of course oblivious to themselves their own shortcomings. This was actually good for them as it seemed a good replacement of one spirit for another less dangerous to themselves. As for those around them maybe, maybe not. Some patients were sincere about their beliefs and the difference was the lack of the self as the focal point. We could get on an ego trip for competing in lack of egos I guess. Now since we have evolution of sorts or a “dropping off” as may be more appropriate. from a man hearing voices that tell us to move Urantia office to California under the leadership of a sincere yet obviously wrong minded filled with zeal, and sincere in that he believed his own inner voices. Because when the bomb didn’t hit that would blow up any charlatan, so sincerity is at least half of the equation, the lack of ego the other. To me channeling is just another more sophisticated form of ego tripping which hasn’t fallen through the cracks yet. Does anyone doubt for a moment that the kind of voices from god to cult of personality behavior in 83 would be followed today? I doubt it, except for a few lost souls out in Arizona perhaps. But they don’t understand the book, it is interpreted by the great “I am”. The reason the Treatise is so dangerous at this time is that if followed or believed ANYTHING is true. This is a “start-up” organization that cannot afford to be taken to the rocks and what does not speed-up but slow its progress, counter-intuitive to the brain that dreamt up this treatise. Channeling will pass on its own I have no doubt , what emerges in its place is anyone’s guess as the mind know no bounds to fill that empty spot with “look at me”. My guess is the next will be more subtle as humanity evolves steadily along. It’s extremely Narcissistic. If this document be treated as anything but an ego trip, it could lead to a crash on the rocks for a spell. It even has an “end times” flavor with a “drop dead” date. “You’re on your own” are the words carefully chosen as to make a point. I don’t doubt the sincererity behind the treatise but I doubt the ego strength, and better to fill it with thoughtful unexciting slow enlightenment from the UB than canned “anonymous is talking to me” exciting guru stuff that makes life more exciting. Of course only Anonymous could prove to himself his own sincerity by not using his name. Bill M
BradlyParticipant
Jan 31, 2017, 5:39 PM
Greetings Bill!! Welcome and thank you. I agree with your perspective.

I have always found the claimants of channeling to be easy to understand and they fall into two distinct categories: those sincere but deluded ones who feel compelled to “share” the inner voices they “hear” as a self important expression to others; and the charlatans who are not delusional in their claims but knowingly use the tools of fakery to subjugate their audience.

The truly interesting ones, to me, are the followers and adherents or the audience for those described above. Now that’s some interesting psychosis for consideration. I am interested in your professional/personal opinion on such ones.

Thanks for joining in.

Bradly

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
chucksmith1982Participant
Mar 17, 2017, 9:30 PM
I just wanted to update this thread with a peace of rellavent information. I think most of you would know this if you read the last uai newsletter, but I thought I’d pass it on in case you didn’t.

The fellowship put a hold on a unity proposal that would have combined UAI and the Fellowship… or at least, that’s my take on it. I mention this because, if memory serves, the one who wrote the document that started this thread seemed to blame Urantia Foundation for the lack of unity.
AnonymousInactive
Mar 18, 2017, 4:41 PM

chucksmith1982 wrote:

I just wanted to update this thread with a peace of rellavent information. I think most of you would know this if you read the last uai newsletter, but I thought I’d pass it on in case you didn’t.

The fellowship put a hold on a unity proposal that would have combined UAI and the Fellowship… or at least, that’s my take on it. I mention this because, if memory serves, the one who wrote the document that started this thread seemed to blame Urantia Foundation for the lack of unity.

“chucksmith1982”: What you imply may be relevant but, as far as the “one who wrote the document” has only one thing in mind and that has to do with financial stability, where his, so called organization, is cash poor, and any “unity” issues between groups has a similar issue, as to who controls funds received and how to distribute such funds. Notwithstanding their original disagreements which segregated the groups, should be the focus on any proposal for unification, but then there are the primary issues, which separated them, where those should be the additional issues under negotiations? As per the context of the “newsletter”, and associated narrations, it would seem that this unification task is like trying to combine two major religions like Judaism and Islam, where they are of the same family, and share traditions, but will not negotiate, on the principle differences. Each one wants to run the show but neither will consider a compromise and let their understanding of what Our Father really wants, and how a unification would or should look like, and should be negotiated by those who have set the differences from the beginning of the conflict, which there are still many around with those thoughts that divide them.
Van AmadonParticipant
Mar 18, 2017, 5:31 PM
“A house divided against itself cannot stand.”
BradlyParticipant
Mar 18, 2017, 7:49 PM

MidiChlorian wrote:

chucksmith1982 wrote:

I just wanted to update this thread with a peace of rellavent information. I think most of you would know this if you read the last uai newsletter, but I thought I’d pass it on in case you didn’t.

The fellowship put a hold on a unity proposal that would have combined UAI and the Fellowship… or at least, that’s my take on it. I mention this because, if memory serves, the one who wrote the document that started this thread seemed to blame Urantia Foundation for the lack of unity.

“chucksmith1982”: What you imply may be relevant but, as far as the “one who wrote the document” has only one thing in mind and that has to do with financial stability, where his, so called organization, is cash poor, and any “unity” issues between groups has a similar issue, as to who controls funds received and how to distribute such funds. Notwithstanding their original disagreements which segregated the groups, should be the focus on any proposal for unification, but then there are the primary issues, which separated them, where those should be the additional issues under negotiations? As per the context of the “newsletter”, and associated narrations, it would seem that this unification task is like trying to combine two major religions like Judaism and Islam, where they are of the same family, and share traditions, but will not negotiate, on the principle differences. Each one wants to run the show but neither will consider a compromise and let their understanding of what Our Father really wants, and how a unification would or should look like, and should be negotiated by those who have set the differences from the beginning of the conflict, which there are still many around with those thoughts that divide them.

Actually there’s been over a decade of compromise and cooperative joint ventures and mutual support and dialogue. There are many joint members within the Big 3 + UBIS +UU. The Fellowship’s Study Group and the Association’s Study Group committees have worked together for years as have both Educational committees and more recently the Conference committees have worked more closely. However, there are significant structural differences which requires time and there are 3 or 4 that are more cultural in nature, all of which will require due consideration, planning, The issues under discussion are clear and specific and posted. There are champions for unity in all organizations and I doubt those against unity are more than a small minority – just my opinion.

Each organization has their own “show” and money and I’ve not heard anyone suggest that any organization is poor or wanting someone else’s money….none are pickpockets or greedy or seeking power IMO. But the Fellowship and Association have thousands of members, all of whom deserve to be heard in a participatory process that does not destroy or even disrupt the ongoing service and project missions, especially during this season of exponential readership growth around the world. This is not a USA movement any more and hasn’t been for a long time now; readers and members speak many languages and with little uniformity of priorities or cultures. But the fact remains, cooperation and peace attend these organizations generally in their current relationships. For those who are members of either org. or even read the Annual Reports and stories of events and newsletters, there is plenty to discover about these issues in the public domain….nothing secretive going on.

The Fellowship and Association will continue to grow closer I believe. There is some serious discussion about whether the movement can be best served or sustained by any singular group but whether many groups united by objective and the Revelation itself might better serve the greater good of the greatest number as the readership grows and the movement globalizes over time…..a very interesting perspective in my own view.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
AnonymousInactive
Mar 18, 2017, 11:55 PM

Bradly wrote:

The Fellowship and Association will continue to grow closer I believe. There is some serious discussion about whether the movement can be best served or sustained by any singular group but whether many groups united by objective and the Revelation itself might better serve the greater good of the greatest number as the readership grows and the movement globalizes over time…..a very interesting perspective in my own view.

Bradly: I tend to agree with you, where I see no real issue regarding unity, in that there will always be various different opinions, therefore having different groups should not be a problem. The issue that was mentioned in the so called “document” seemed to be an attack against the various groups and indicated that they needed to unify in order to, achieve “whatever”, which really seemed to promote conflict where there is none. Even Jesus indicated that everyone does not need to think alike, but have a united goal in bringing about the Kingdom on earth.
Van AmadonParticipant
Mar 19, 2017, 3:58 AM

Unity in doing the Father’s will is the only way harmony between organizations and individuals will ever be achieved. No money required.

Verily, verily, I say to you, not every one who says, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but rather he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

The kingdom of heaven – is – the doing of the Father’s will. When there’s unity in this, many more things will be brought about than mere organization. In fact, no organization will be necessary. Nothing will need to be decided or negotiated. Men and women will instead just do it. Everything and all, according to the spirit. The spirit of the situation. The spirit of the moment. Together without saying a word. As it is in heaven.
Mark KurtzParticipant
Mar 19, 2017, 11:24 AM
The one unity that is ultimately best is with our Paradise Father, Universe Son and Universe Mother. Each of us would be wise to turn our mind attention to this living connection and to dissolve any need to correct one another here. What really matters is spiritual growth for each other rather than historical talking points mostly involving earth-side authorities within the Revelation movement. Within ourselves is the Paradise “alter” to which we may direct our souls for healing and mercy. It doesn’t really matter what the past has done wrong; what matters is the direction we desire to move and that is more than we can now see with eyes. Faith shows us the future is better and more satisfying in unity with Michael’s style, teachings, and plans. The “document” dissolves when faith is on the Father and His Son. Let’s focus on that direction together; we all need this assurance for increasing personal worth, value and love from Paradise and Salvington.
Van AmadonParticipant
Mar 19, 2017, 4:05 AM

Unity in doing the Father’s will is the only way harmony between organizations and individuals will ever be achieved. No money required.

“Verily, verily, I say to you, not every one who says, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but rather he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

The kingdom of heaven – is – the doing of the Father’s will. When there’s unity in this, many more things will be brought about than mere organization. In fact, no organization will be necessary. Nothing will need to be decided or negotiated. Men and women will instead just do it. Everything and all, according to the spirit. The spirit of the situation. The spirit of the moment. Together without saying a word. As it is in heaven.
Van AmadonParticipant
Mar 19, 2017, 12:07 PM
Unity in doing the Father’s will is the only way harmony between organizations and individuals will ever be achieved.

“Verily, verily, I say to you, not every one who says, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but rather he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

The kingdom of heaven – is – the doing of the Father’s will. When there’s unity in this, many more things will be brought about, than mere organization. In fact, no organization will be necessary at all. Nothing will need to be decided or negotiated. Men and women will instead just do it. Everything and all, according to the spirit. The spirit of the situation. The spirit of the moment. Together without saying a word. As it is in heaven.
GeneParticipant
Mar 19, 2017, 3:02 PM
Is there not unity and organization and government and authority and responsibility and dedication to fathers will in the realms from Morontia to Paradise?
chucksmith1982Participant
Mar 19, 2017, 3:27 PM
I was under the impression that the split all started because of copyright issues and over the best way to spread the revelation.

With the internet, allowing for distrubutian of the text, (and both groups have the text online and for download) and the English copyright in the public domain, what is the sticking point? The orrigional points for division seem to be of little or no conciquence anymore.
BradlyParticipant
Mar 19, 2017, 4:05 PM
Well said Gene…of course the universe of universes has many multiples of “organization” and process including votes, representation, leadership, teamwork, executives, administrators, legislators, courts, and vast bureaucracies. The patterns for organization are replete in the Revelation….if one were familiar with it.

Chuck…I don’t think a laundry list of issues is useful or easy as the members each have their own point of view and memory. The time of turmoil and troubles is now more than 25 years in the past…and since that time all organizations and their members have all striven to serve dissemination and the growing student body…the differences or sticking points subside over time and cooperation and respect and unity of purpose grows. The movement will continue to evolve and as the movement keeps focused on the teachings and the living in the Spirit, progress will continue in the movement and it will prosper best by organizations activated by service motive to our world. Those who strive to serve with sincerity and love never fail in their service. Those with unity grow in power to serve together ever more seekers.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Van AmadonParticipant
Mar 19, 2017, 4:37 PM
Yes, for those who seek power and authority, organization is necessary. Then sometimes, all the rest unite to overthrow those whose intent is to use there position of authority to serve themselves. Just sayin.

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