↗ Live site
Preview: a read-only copy of the forum. To post or reply, use the current forum.

Who Knows "The Truth"? What is Truth? Where is Truth Found?

203 posts · 11 participants · started Mar 27, 2016, 11:58 AM

  1. Thanks very much, Nigel, Midi, for the thought provoking and insightful commentaries.

    It’s a fascinating question, one most worth exploring to the limits of human understanding: What in us says; ‘that’s true’, or ‘that’s not true’? For me, it is a resonance with what I perceive to be real, a feeling of assurance, a cosmic knowing. Kind of like the experience of goodness or the perception of beauty, there is a definite connection with the REAL, with God. The opposite would seem true also. When something doesn’t feel right, fit right, or resonate, then it is lacking in truth. But then every person has a different (and to some degree erroneous) grasp of what is real, so any discussion of truth, fact, and reality almost always winds up in the land of subjectivity, even when and where The Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit, and God are supposed to be congruent and validating presences.

     

    .

     

     

    Richard E Warren

  2. Nigel Nunn wrote: But where in this set of ministries do we find her role as mediator of those three distinct “intuitions of validity” made accessible by the cosmic mind? How would you describe the way she makes possible and accessible that “reality response” which “saves us from becoming helpless victims of the implied a priori assumptions of science, philosophy, and religion.” (191.7, 16:6.4)

    Nigel, it is my understanding that these intuitions are innate in the cosmic mind.  They are the very threads of the fabric of mind which, like gravity, pull reality from all three levels toward it in order that they can be understood.  The adjutants minister to the material mind, and embroider their influence  in such a way as to influence the direction of material reality once it is attracted to cosmic mind. The lower adjutants make mind connections which give physical reality meaning.  The higher adjutants facilitate the urge to give meaning to philosophical reality and number 7  coordinates all the adjutants such that thoughts can be accessed by the Holy Spirit whose ministry facilitates the recognition of spiritual reality.  I see these intuitions more as a reality attraction or magnetism already built into the substance of cosmic mind.  Cosmic mind with its reality drawing power is the substructure on which all the ministries do their processing work, as they are able to make contact.  There is no additional ministry for this purpose.  I think if there were, it would have been mentioned, given a name, and described in TUB for our edification.

    Nigel Nunn wrote: Since this insight depends on the cosmic intuitions, it would appear to be independent of adjutant ministry. And since it is intellectual (not supermindal or spiritual), it seems to be distinct from the (spiritual) ministry of the Holy Spirit. Thus my interest in teasing out her involvement in this powerful (non-spiritual) inspiration, which is accessible to each of our seven billion fellows, each of whom are more or less stuck in erroneous “frames in which to think”. (1260.2, 115:1.1)

    The cosmic mind is the foundation for all mind on all levels, along with its magnetic pull on reality.  The level of reality determines the level of cosmic mind and its ministry.  The adjutants themselves, are part of the cosmic mind.  They minister to the level of cosmic mind which functions at the material level of reality. The cosmic mind is also the basis of the supermind, a morontia level of the cosmic mind which functions at the soul level of reality.  And the discovery, recognition and interpretation of all reality attracted to any mind, at any level, is a spiritual process.  The adjutants are also called “spirit of”.  The supermind is the Holy Spirit.  Mind ministry is a spirit ministry.   Even the gravitational pull the cosmic mind has on reality is a presence ministry.  Gravity is a presence ministry provided by spirit.

    15:9.1 The universal circuits of Paradise do actually pervade the realms of the seven superuniverses. These presence circuits are: the personality gravity of the Universal Father, the spiritual gravity of the Eternal Son, the mind gravity of the Conjoint Actor, and the material gravity of the eternal Isle.

    Don’t forget that the greatest function of the cosmic mind is where the divergence between physical reality and spiritual reality is the greatest.  Cosmic mind functions to pull these two divergent levels of reality together within mind in order to unify them.  The cosmic mind does the drawing and pulling, the mind ministries do the work of knitting it all together into something that makes sense and is workable within the cosmic framework.

    Nigel Nunn wrote: I was thinking the above quote (379.4, 34:5.4) refers to a mind “thus endowed with the ministry of the Holy Spirit“, prior to the presence of the Adjuster. What do you think?

    For us, this event occurs simultaneously.  The moment the individual enters the seventh circle, all three of the higher spirit ministries appear: Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth and Adjuster.  There is no distinguishable time lag.  Are you talking about the days before Pentecost, the days of primitive man when not everyone got an Adjuster?  I’m not following your logic.

    Nigel Nunn wrote: What I had in mind is simply that the cosmic intuitions make it possible for us to accept epochal revelation as valid. This is not about intuitively divining undiscovered facts, it’s about enabling that “sniff test” that allows us to evaluate the credentials of something presented as fact.

    I thought that we were specifically told that the source of validity of epochal revelation resided in the soul.  Revelation is a spiritual phenomenon.  Truth is a revelation.  The revelation of truth can only occur in the soul, where a supermaterial mind recognizes supermaterial reality.  At the very beginning of TUB the revelator admits that the spirit forces within the soul will enable us to grasp the reality of the meaning of the text.

    0:12.13  But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience — God-consciousness.

    Nigel Nunn wrote: I got to wondering whether each of these four integrated (yet absolutely distinct) domains might have its own flavor of “fact”, and corresponding mode of “validation”, some way to recognize and respond to the facts peculiar to that domain.

    Don’t you mean the flavor of reality?  That would be the cosmic intuitions, the stickiness of reality and how neatly and comfortably reality fits into the realm of mind?  Trying to stuff nonreality into an increasingly real and unified mind is disruptive and uncomfortable.  The flavor of each level of reality can only be experienced in mind.  Therefore it is the recognition of these levels of reality which provide the flavor. (actually, I like scent)

    Physical gravity has to do with the physical level of reality, and the flavor of recognizing this reality comes from the cosmic intuition called causation.  It has to do with things, energy, facts, reason, science.  Physical gravity pulls the physical toward the Isle of Paradise and mind attempts to integrate this level of reality into the totality of personality experience by recognizing its beauty.

    Spiritual gravity has to do with the spiritual level of reality, and the flavor of recognizing this reality comes from the cosmic intuition called worship.  It has to do with relations, truth, faith, value, spirit. Spiritual gravity pulls spirit toward the Eternal Son and mind attempts to integrate this level of reality in such a way that it becomes the motivating influence on all other levels of the personality.  It does this through the mindal level of reality by the recognition of truth.

    Mind gravity has to do with the mind level of reality, and the flavor of this reality recognition comes from the cosmic intuition called duty.  It has to do with intellect, ideas, philosophy, and meanings.  Mind gravity pulls mind toward the Infinite Spirit while attempting to integrate the other two levels of reality, fact and value, or physical and spiritual, in such a way which stabilizes and balances the mind so it can facilitate growth by allowing increasing spirit dominance.

    Personality gravity has to do with personality itself.  The flavor of the recognition of this level of reality comes from God himself, the Adjuster. But since the Adjuster is prepersonal, we are gifted with personality presences who assist us in recognizing this form of reality on spiritual levels, the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth.  Personality gravity has more to do with the recognition of the goodness of God.

    Nigel Nunn wrote: Thus the facts of the personality circuit are the Universal Father and love. Its technique of validation is living truth. Likewise, the facts of the spirit circuit are the Eternal Son and spirit luminosity. Its technique of validation is religious. The facts of the mind circuit are the Infinite Spirit and intellectual insight. Its technique of validation is (universal) philosophy. And the facts of the material circuit are Paradise and material light. Its technique of validation is (universal) science.

    I think you would do better to change the word fact to reality.  The technique of validation of the Father’s love is personal religious experience and the yielding of spiritual fruit.  The technique of validating spiritual reality is the same. The technique of validating mind reality is allowing it to become dominated by spirit reality.  The technique of validating material reality is allowing it to be dominated by mind reality which is then dominated by spirit reality.  Validity only comes from unification of all three levels of reality, and this can only be done by the transference of dominance to spiritual levels.  There is no validity unless there is unification. Validity comes from the “harmony of the triunity of functional reality”. And oddly enough, mind itself is unity.

    16:9.1 Aside from these three inalienables of human consciousness, all human experience is really subjective except that intuitive realization of validity attaches to the unification of these three universe reality responses of cosmic recognition.

    102:2.5 Mind is unity; mortal consciousness lives on the mind level and perceives the universal realities through the eyes of the mind endowment. The mindperspective will not yield the existential unity of the source of reality, the First Source and Center, but it can and sometime will portray to man the experiential synthesis of energy, mind, and spirit in and as the Supreme Being. But mind can never succeed in this unification of the diversity of reality unless such mindis firmly aware of material things, intellectual meanings, and spiritual values; only in the harmony of the triunity of functional reality is there unity, and only in unity is there the personality satisfaction of the realization of cosmic constancy and consistency.

    42:11.7 Since mind co-ordinates the universe, fixity of mechanisms is nonexistent. The phenomenon of progressive evolution associated with cosmic self-maintenance is universal. The evolutionary capacity of the universe is inexhaustible in the infinity of spontaneity. Progress towards harmonious unity, a growing experiential synthesis superimposed on an ever-increasing complexity of relationships, could be effected only by a purposive and dominant mind.

    Nigel Nunn wrote: But to a Force Organizer?
    How about mind gravity?  Gravity is a force with a presence.  The organizers are the adjutants on the material level, the Holy Spirit on the spirit level.
    Nigel Nunn wrote: Brain goes slow, and time units no longer so short
    Suffering from the same malady myself.  But even though the brain is slowing down, I think my mind is speeding up.  It’s a quantity/quality thing.  And time . . . yeah . . .  seven years go by in seven minutes these days. Thanks so much for the response.  Looking forward to more.
  3. Nigel, I find your turn of phrase “Spirit of Fact” quite helpful to this discussion. I think the “spirit” of what your phrase attempts to capture is the feeling of objective reality which these insights bring to us.

    “And it is these three cosmic intuitions that give objective validity, reality, to man’s experience in and with things, meanings, and values.” (16:6.10)

    The point has been made repeatedly that truth is personally discerned. For some this implies that truth is only a matter of subjective interpretation, which further implies that all interpretations are equally valid. In this post-modern view of truth there are no true facts, only interpretations. Your phrase reminds us that the value of truth is an independently existent objective reality which is necessarily associated more strongly with certain facts by certain meanings. The highest truth is that meaning which fully unifies things and values. There are any number of ideas about the universe which can be formed from the available facts, but they are not all equally true. There is only one true concept of the universe, and all of our subjective ideas about it are either closer to or further away from this objectively real truth. Truth is not egalitarian. It authoritatively establishes an objectively real cosmic hierarchy of true things, meanings, and values.

    Speaking poetically, there is a feeling of objectively real truth apprehended in the material fact of the Book, almost as though a “Spirit of Fact” authenticates its superhuman origin.

  4. So wait.  Are we equating truth with authority?  Is the Spirit of Fact a deified source of authority used for authentication?  Again, these are different words used to indicate reality.   It’s nice to use new words, but reality is authentic which gives it authority over nonreality.    I think we’re doing a different dance to the same tune.  You like the Mashed Potato, I like the Twist.

    George Park wrote: The point has been made repeatedly that truth is personally discerned.

    We are told that the concept of truth can be considered without personality; but when personality is present, truth is experienced, and it is experienced on supermaterial levels.

    1:7.3 The concept of truth might possibly be entertained apart from personality, . . . 

    George Park wrote:The highest truth is that meaning which fully unifies things and values.

    I’m not arguing with this, I’m just wondering how it fits into the quote below:

    118:3.3 But when truth becomes linked with fact, then both time and space condition its meanings and correlate its values. Such realities of truth wedded to fact become concepts and are accordingly relegated to the domain of relative cosmic realities.

    Personally, I think the highest truth exists only on Paradise, and it’s something we can never really attain.  We can only approximate it in this universe era.  Even when the Supreme emerges, when we achieve the final penetration of truth, it will still be experiential, not existential.  Which means, there’s always more.

    115:3.19 The final penetration of the truth, beauty, and goodness of the Supreme Being could only open up to the progressing creature those absonite qualities of ultimate divinity which lie beyond the concept levels of truth, beauty, and goodness.

    George Park wrote: There is only one true concept of the universe, and all of our subjective ideas about it are either closer to or further away from this objectively real truth.

    I don’t understand this statement.  Are you referring to final truth, the truth we penetrate with the emergence of the Supreme, as the goal of truth attainment?  If so, I can agree. But in all honesty, I don’t think truth is about ideas.  Ideas are on the mind level of reality, the philosophical arena.  Truth is about ideals which are experienced on the spiritual level of mind.  You really can’t philosophize about truth as though it were wisdom, because when you do, you’re attempting to “undertake the human formulation of divine truth” which kills it.

    180:5.2 Divine truth is a spirit-discerned and living reality. Truth exists only on high spiritual levels of the realization of divinity and the consciousness of communion with God. You can know the truth, and you can live the truth; you can experience the growth of truth in the soul and enjoy the liberty of its enlightenment in the mind, but you cannot imprison truth in formulas, codes, creeds, or intellectual patterns of human conduct. When you undertake the human formulation of divine truth, it speedily dies. The post-mortem salvage of imprisoned truth, even at best, can eventuate only in the realization of a peculiar form of intellectualized glorified wisdom. Static truth is dead truth, and only dead truth can be held as a theory. Living truth is dynamic and can enjoy only an experiential existence in the human mind.

    2:7.3  Divine truth, final truth, is uniform and universal, but the story of things spiritual, as it is told by numerous individuals hailing from various spheres, may sometimes vary in details owing to this relativity in the completeness of knowledge and in the repleteness of personal experience as well as in the length and extent of that experience. While the laws and decrees, the thoughts and attitudes, of the First Great Source and Center are eternally, infinitely, and universally true; at the same time, their application to, and adjustment for, every universe, system, world, and created intelligence, are in accordance with the plans and technique of the Creator Sons as they function in their respective universes, as well as in harmony with the local plans and procedures of the Infinite Spirit and of all other associated celestial personalities.

    The last quote above more or less explains why the Spirit of Truth, the spirit presence of the personality of our Master Michael, reveals and interprets truth as he prefers within his own creation.  So, there is a certain quality of truth, values and spiritual reality we are all striving for, but none of us, human or divine, ever fully attain it until everyone does and the Supreme emerges.  Meanwhile, it’s perfectly acceptable to have different experiences with truth because truth is relative.  It is living and flexible.

    Furthermore, I have to reiterate that truth is not interpreted by our material minds; it is experienced in the soul.  Interpretation by the material mind is a philosophical technique which distorts truth.  The superphilosophical interpretation of reality occurs in the soul (approaching mota) and is the realm of the Spirit of Truth.

    101:3.2 Spiritual philosophy, the wisdom of spirit realities, is the endowment of the Spirit of Truth, the combined gift of the bestowal Sons to the children of men.

  5. The last quote above more or less explains why the Spirit of Truth, the spirit presence of the personality of our Master Michael, reveals and interprets truth as he prefers within his own creation. So, there is a certain quality of truth, values and spiritual reality we are all striving for, but none of us, human or divine, ever fully attain it until everyone does and the Supreme emerges. Meanwhile, it’s perfectly acceptable to have different experiences with truth because truth is relative. It is living and flexible.

    Furthermore, I have to reiterate that truth is not interpreted by our material minds; it is experienced in the soul. Interpretation by the material mind is a philosophical technique which distorts truth. The superphilosophical interpretation of reality occurs in the soul (approaching mota) and is the realm of the Spirit of Truth.

    101:3.2 Spiritual philosophy, the wisdom of spirit realities, is the endowment of the Spirit of Truth, the combined gift of the bestowal Sons to the children of men.

    (Color emphasis mine)

    I’m not sure I can agree with your statement above Bonita, however I understand why you say: “The last quote above more or less explains why the Spirit of Truth,” but from what you opine, and what I read into that, it seems that it is your impression that everyone must fully understand “Master Michael”(‘s) interpretation of His truth as He reveals it to who?, you?  Which if so, that would be fine for you but, how could this truth as revealed to you be subjected to others who have different experiences?  Where in your second statement you state that “truth is not interpreted by our material minds”, where in the UB quote below, “truth an experience of the soul,” which “is the domain of the spiritually endowed intellect” but is relevant to “knowing God.”  Therefore, as you indicate above, the “interpretation of reality” from the soul’s experience, is relevant to knowing “the Spirit of Truth.”  Is not the soul, the Devin You also, and accessible through the Thought Adjuster first before becoming God Conscious?  It might be presumed that your interpretation associates “Master Michael” as a persons Thought Adjuster? which does not compute in the UB, as I read it.

    (1435.2) 130:4.10 Knowledge is the sphere of the material or fact-discerning mind. Truth is the domain of the spiritually endowed intellect that is conscious of knowing God. Knowledge is demonstrable; truth is experienced. Knowledge is a possession of the mind; truth an experience of the soul, the progressing self. Knowledge is a function of the nonspiritual level; truth is a phase of the mind-spirit level of the universes. The eye of the material mind perceives a world of factual knowledge; the eye of the spiritualized intellect discerns a world of true values. These two views, synchronized and harmonized, reveal the world of reality, wherein wisdom interprets the phenomena of the universe in terms of progressive personal experience.

    You also use a portion of the UB quote below, above, and many other partial quote in your last posting, which by themselves may validate your usage of them but when incorporated with the rest of the UB quote, may not qualify the same way?

    Where if the material mind cannot interpret truth, then truth can be associated with the “cosmic mind” and the “Thought Adjuster,  which is the Father’s gift to man”, and is a separate association from the Spirit of Truth?  But I can associate the Spirit of truth with the Holy Spirit, which are both of Spirit, and “soul intelligence”, which may interpret “spirit realities” but what of material realities?

    (1108.1) 101:3.2 Faith-insight, or spiritual intuition, is the endowment of the cosmic mind in association with the Thought Adjuster, which is the Father’s gift to man. Spiritual reason, soul intelligence, is the endowment of the Holy Spirit, the Creative Spirit’s gift to man. Spiritual philosophy, the wisdom of spirit realities, is the endowment of the Spirit of Truth, the combined gift of the bestowal Sons to the children of men. And the co-ordination and interassociation of these spirit endowments constitute man a spirit personality in potential destiny.

    It would seem that from the last line from the UB quote above where “man a spirit personality in potential destiny” we must assume that being a “spirit personality” having “potential destiny” is unrelated to one’s representation to material personality, but being of dual natures we must take into consideration that overall reality, specifically material reality cannot be absolute when interwoven with spiritual reality.  Two individuals may be watching a specific event at the same time but when questioned as to their actual experience, they may have two different versions of that event.  Both versions are truth and factual as each has experienced, but may rarely be identical when asked to present this experience to someone else.  This is the same with “Revelation” and the content of the Urantia Book as understood by each reader.  Revelation is dynamic and can never be static, therefore the words presented in the UB is static within its presentation of words on paper, but understood as dynamic to the individual.  If one were to assume that the static text must be understood as static meaning for all, then we might as well give up know because no one of us is perfect by our self.

  6. .
    Thanks for your contributions everyone,
    .
       Final Truth is an unknowable mystery, but revealed truth declares the God of Truth is our most intimate friend who lives at our very core. And since God is truth, and our truest identity is the indwelling fragment of God, then we are truth, in some measure.  Is that not the best truth of all?! Amazing to know we have a trinity of living truth living in our minds.
     .
       I don’t doubt we will gradually discover what truth is to the mysterious Universal Father, up to our capacity as Finaliters at least. And we all receive a partial insight into the totality of Absolute Truth through our unique experiences traveling through space, from world to world, tracing a single line on the great cosmic mosaic, from Urantia to Paradise, one that no other has traced or will again. Father’s truth is uniquely expressed in us, through our Thought Adjuster–when we are living the spirit-led life of course. And we know it is spirit-led because truth has the taste of God.
    .
    It requires great courage to face genuine truth, partial truth needs less courage. Falsehood involves little or no courage. Father is the truth from the absolute level to our lowly plane of existence. The truth of how God can personally be present with every member of the universal family everywhere in the cosmos at the same time, and still be our One Universal Sovereign who (in perfection mind you) upholds, powers, and guides the Universe, is explained by saying simply, omnipresence and omnipotence are divine prerogatives. That puts a label on, but explains nothing. The Truth of God is the greatest mystery of all, but we always know Father exists, because we and the cosmos exist. A real and vibrant piece of Father lives inside us, seeking to reveal the truth, offer constant embrace, even seek our loving attention and eternal friendship.
    .
       …God is absolute truth. As truth one may know God, but to understand–to explain–God,
    one must explore the fact of the universe of universes…. (1125.1) 102:6.6
     .
       The greatest and most real of all truths is God. To grasp the total reality, meaning and value of truth up to our capacity, we must view things as God does, become God-like. God is Truth, but truth is only one aspect of God. To know Father’s truth in perfection we will know and become living truth, as only we can. We will want to know everything about God before actually meeting God on Paradise, in person. That’ll be a Moment of Truth, won’t it!
     .
       You may wish to thank God for providing you with innumerable teachers and countless lives to achieve the creature level of understanding of truth. After reaching the source of Truth on Paradise, we will want to serve endlessly bringing divine truth to our less advanced siblings, those still seeking truth. As we are now.
     .

       If God is the source, center and destiny of all truth, personality, value, meaning and purpose, then truth for us personally is how we relate to Father on the spiritual/personal level. If God is Truth and we are children of God, what is truth to us??

    Whatever the truth is to us, it is not a boring universe. The space/time cosmos was created as our school and our cruising ground, a vast arena where we learn, grow, advance in spirit and service, in wisdom and knowledge, and where we perfect the God-like act of revealing truth. The universe is made so we can eventually find and live truth, but it takes effort. No hurry, no worry, every worthy goal will be reached if we, each day relentlessly, joyously, and willingly, seek the advice and counsel of our “truth response” mechanism, also known as the Spirit of Truth. God thinks of everything.

    ..

       …Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service…. (1917.3) 176:3.7
     .
    ***

    Richard E Warren

  7. Are we equating truth with authority?

    Yes, of course. It is the association of the spirit reality of truth with the material reality of fact which establishes an authoritatively true meaning. The less this association is conditioned by time and space, the more the truth approaches an absolute status.

    PARADISE is the eternal center of the universe of universes and the abiding place of the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, the Infinite Spirit, and their divine co-ordinates and associates. This central Isle is the most gigantic organized body of cosmic reality in all the master universe. Paradise is a material sphere as well as a spiritual abode. All of the intelligent creation of the Universal Father is domiciled on material abodes; hence must the absolute controlling center also be material, literal. (11:0.1)

    The Isle of Paradise is the highest material fact; it is an absolute and eternal fact. The only reason we know it is an absolute fact is because the spirit reality of absolute truth is associated with it. Rather, to the extent that we recognize the reality of truth we recognize that it is literally a factual material reality.

    Interpretation by the material mind is a philosophical technique which distorts truth.

    This is not always the case, since the material mind can grasp the absolute truth of the absolute fact of the Isle of Paradise. God is the absolute of truth. Paradise is the absolute of fact.

  8. Thanks for your contributions everyone,
       Final Truth is an unknowable mystery, but revealed truth declares the God of Truth is our most intimate friend who lives at our very core. And since God is truth, and our truest identity is the indwelling fragment of God, then we are truth, in some measure. Is that not the best truth of all?! Amazing to know we have a trinity of living truth living in our minds.
       I don’t doubt we will gradually discover what truth is to the mysterious Universal Father, up to our capacity as Finaliters at least. And we all receive a partial insight into the totality of Absolute Truth through our unique experiences traveling through space, from world to world, tracing a single line on the great cosmic mosaic, from Urantia to Paradise, one that no other has traced or will again. Father’s truth is uniquely expressed in us, through our Thought Adjuster–when we are living the spirit-led life of course. And we know it is spirit-led because truth has the taste of God.
       It requires great courage to face genuine truth, partial truth needs less courage. Falsehood involves little or no courage. Father is the truth from the absolute level to our lowly plane of existence. The truth of how God can personally be present with every member of the universal family everywhere in the cosmos at the same time, and still be our One Universal Sovereign who (in perfection mind you) upholds, powers, and guides the Universe, is explained by saying simply, omnipresence and omnipotence are divine prerogatives. That puts a label on, but explains nothing. The Truth of God is the greatest mystery of all, but we always know Father exists, because we and the cosmos exist. A real and vibrant piece of Father lives inside us, seeking to reveal the truth, offer constant embrace, even seek our loving attention and eternal friendship.
    …God is absolute truth. As truth one may know God, but to understand–to explain–God, one must explore the fact of the universe of universes…. (1125.1) 102:6.6
       The greatest and most real of all truths is God. To grasp the total reality, meaning and value of truth up to our capacity, we must view things as God does, become God-like. God is Truth, but truth is only one aspect of God. To know Father’s truth in perfection we will know and become living truth, as only we can. We will want to know everything about God before actually meeting God on Paradise, in person. That’ll be a Moment of Truth, won’t it!
       You may wish to thank God for providing you with innumerable teachers and countless lives to achieve the creature level of understanding of truth. After reaching the source of Truth on Paradise, we will want to serve endlessly bringing divine truth to our less advanced siblings, those still seeking truth. As we are now.
       If God is the source, center and destiny of all truth, personality, value, meaning and purpose, then truth for us personally is how we relate to Father on the spiritual/personal level. If God is Truth and we are children of God, what is truth to us??
       Whatever the truth is to us, it is not a boring universe. The space/time cosmos was created as our school and our cruising ground, a vast arena where we learn, grow, advance in spirit and service, in wisdom and knowledge, and where we perfect the God-like act of revealing truth. The universe is made so we can eventually find and live truth, but it takes effort. No hurry, no worry, every worthy goal will be reached if we, each day relentlessly, joyously, and willingly, seek the advice and counsel of our “truth response” mechanism, also known as the Spirit of Truth. God thinks of everything.
    …Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service…. (1917.3) 176:3.7
    ***

    Richard E Warren

  9. Thanks for your contributions everyone,
    Final Truth is an unknowable mystery, but revealed truth declares the God of Truth is our most intimate friend who lives at our very core. And since God is truth, and our truest identity is the indwelling fragment of God, then we are truth, in some measure. Is that not the best truth of all?! Amazing to know we have a trinity of living truth living in our minds.
       I don’t doubt we will gradually discover what truth is to the mysterious Universal Father, up to our capacity as Finaliters at least. And we all receive a partial insight into the totality of Absolute Truth through our unique experiences traveling through space, from world to world, tracing a single line on the great cosmic mosaic, from Urantia to Paradise, one that no other has traced or will again. Father’s truth is uniquely expressed in us, through our Thought Adjuster–when we are living the spirit-led life of course. And we know it is spirit-led because truth has the taste of God.
       It requires great courage to face genuine truth, partial truth needs less courage. Falsehood involves little or no courage. Father is the truth from the absolute level to our lowly plane of existence. The truth of how God can personally be present with every member of the universal family everywhere in the cosmos at the same time, and still be our One Universal Sovereign who (in perfection mind you) upholds, powers, and guides the Universe, is explained by saying simply, omnipresence and omnipotence are divine prerogatives. That puts a label on, but explains nothing. The Truth of God is the greatest mystery of all, but we always know Father exists, because we and the cosmos exist. A real and vibrant piece of Father lives inside us, seeking to reveal the truth, offer constant embrace, even seek our loving attention and eternal friendship.
    …God is absolute truth. As truth one may know God, but to understand–to explain–God, one must explore the fact of the universe of universes…. (1125.1) 102:6.6
       The greatest and most real of all truths is God. To grasp the total reality, meaning and value of truth up to our capacity, we must view things as God does, become God-like. God is Truth, but truth is only one aspect of God. To know Father’s truth in perfection we will know and become living truth, as only we can. We will want to know everything about God before actually meeting God on Paradise, in person. That’ll be a Moment of Truth, won’t it!
       You may wish to thank God for providing you with innumerable teachers and countless lives to achieve the creature level of understanding of truth. After reaching the source of Truth on Paradise, we will want to serve endlessly bringing divine truth to our less advanced siblings, those still seeking truth. As we are now.
       If God is the source, center and destiny of all truth, personality, value, meaning and purpose, then truth for us personally is how we relate to Father on the spiritual/personal level. If God is Truth and we are children of God, what is truth to us??
       Whatever the truth is to us, it is not a boring universe. The space/time cosmos was created as our school and our cruising ground, a vast arena where we learn, grow, advance in spirit and service, in wisdom and knowledge, and where we perfect the God-like act of revealing truth. The universe is made so we can eventually find and live truth, but it takes effort. No hurry, no worry, every worthy goal will be reached if we, each day relentlessly, joyously, and willingly, seek the advice and counsel of our “truth response” mechanism, also known as the Spirit of Truth. God thinks of everything.
    …Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service…. (1917.3) 176:3.7
    ***

    Richard E Warren

  10. Sidenote: If anyone else couldn’t submit their post today, you might try changing your password. Worked for me.

    Richard E Warren

  11. George Park wrote: It is the association of the spirit reality of truth with the material reality of fact which establishes an authoritatively true meaning. The less this association is conditioned by time and space, the more the truth approaches an absolute status.

    Truth is one element of reality and it is relative.  The association of fact and truth is accomplished by philosophy. It’s the second level of the cosmic mind: duty and ideas, the level of the intellect.  The only authority is God’s, but short of Paradise, truth is entirely relative, so its authority is also relative.  But even when we attain Paradise levels of truth, it is not absolute.  We first have to evolve the Supreme, which would be supreme truth; then we go on to absonite levels and discover ultimate truth, all before finding absolute truth, if we ever do.

    George Park wrote: The only reason we know it is an absolute fact is because the spirit reality of absolute truth is associated with it. Rather, to the extent that we recognize the reality of truth we recognize that it is literally a factual material reality.
    I think the only reason we know that Paradise is the highest material fact is because of revelation.  None of us knew that before TUB. Recognition of the reality of truth is recognition of value.  Recall that the third cosmic mind recognition response is to discriminate between what is value and what is not value. Truth is value, ideals, spiritual reality.
    George Park wrote:This is not always the case, since the material mind can grasp the absolute truth of the absolute fact of the Isle of Paradise. God is the absolute of truth. Paradise is the absolute of fact.

    Actually, I think TUB is quite clear that the material mind cannot grasp absolutes at all. And we’re told over and over again that Paradise is beyond the understanding grasp of the human mind.

    14:0.1 The perfect and divine universe occupies the center of all creation; it is the eternal core around which the vast creations of time and space revolve. Paradise is the gigantic nuclear Isle of absolutestability which rests motionless at the very heart of the magnificent eternal universe. This central planetary family is called Havona and is far-distant from the local universe of Nebadon. It is of enormous dimensions and almost unbelievable mass and consists of one billion spheres of unimagined beauty and superb grandeur, but the true magnitude of this vast creation is really beyond the understanding grasp of the human mind.

    3:4.6 Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel — literally experience — the full and undiminished impact of such an infinite Father’s LOVE. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return.

     

  12. Truth is one element of reality and it is relative.

    While the truth is relative, it is not absolutely so; that is, it is logically inconsistent to assert that truth is absolutely relative.

    “God is the first truth and the last fact; therefore does all truth take origin in him, while all facts exist relative to him. God is absolute truth.” (102:6.6)

    God is absolute truth and absolute fact, and all truth and fact exist relative to him. Part of the absolute factuality of God is the absolute material reality of the Isle of Paradise – the Father creates Paradise at the same instant he becomes father to the Eternal Son. Absolute truth and absolute fact are not opposed; they are coordinate in absolute meaning. This is the axiomatic foundation of experience which arises from the three cosmic insights. At least, this is how these matters appear to me.

  13. George Park wrote: While the truth is relative, it is not absolutely so; that is, it is logically inconsistent to assert that truth is absolutely relative.

    Out in here in the experiential worlds of time and space, truth is always relative.  Truth is only absolute on Paradise for existential beings.  We are experiential beings, and therefore, truth for us is always relative.  The reason it is always relative is because truth in the experiential worlds is dependent upon experience and not everyone’s experience is complete; we have only partial experience with truth. Living truth, truth out here in the seven superuniverses, is always relative because it is always adapting.  Truth needs to be adaptive because of the contrast between truth and evil that allows for choice, for experience.   Truth on Paradise doesn’t have to rely on experience or the contrast between truth and evil, and therefore, doesn’t need to adapt or be relative.   Here are all the quotes which explain it:

    2:7.2 Physical facts are fairly uniform, but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe. Evolving personalities are only partially wise and relatively true in their communications. They can be certain only as far as their personal experience extends. That which apparently may be wholly true in one place may be only relatively true in another segment of creation.

    2:7.3 Divine truth, final truth, is uniform and universal, but the story of things spiritual, as it is told by numerous individuals hailing from various spheres, may sometimes vary in details owing to this relativity in the completeness of knowledge and in the repleteness of personal experience as well as in the length and extent of that experience. While the laws and decrees, the thoughts and attitudes, of the First Great Source and Center are eternally, infinitely, and universally true; at the same time, their application to, and adjustment for, every universe, system, world, and created intelligence, are in accordance with the plans and technique of the Creator Sons as they function in their respective universes, as well as in harmony with the local plans and procedures of the Infinite Spirit and of all other associated celestial personalities.

    79:8.8 Truth is relative and expanding; it lives always in the present, achieving new expression in each generation of men–even in each human life.

    132:2.3  Goodness, like truth, is always relative and unfailingly evil-contrasted. It is the perception of these qualities of goodness and truth that enables the evolving souls of men to make those personal decisions of choice which are essential to eternal survival.

    159:4.8  Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity.

  14. Thanks for the thoughtful contributions everyone,.

    Absolute Truth is an unknowable mystery, but revealed truth declares the God of Truth is our most intimate friend who lives at our very core. And since God is Truth, and our truest identity is the indwelling fragment of God, then we are truth, in some measure. Is that not the best truth of all?! Amazing to know we have a trinity of living truth living in our minds.

    I don’t doubt we will gradually discover what truth is to the mysterious Universal Father, up to our capacity as Finaliters at least. And we all receive partial insight into the totality of Absolute Truth through our unique experiences traveling through space, from world to world, tracing a single line on the great cosmic mosaic, from Urantia to Paradise, one that no other has traced or will again. Father’s truth is uniquely expressed in us, through our Thought Adjuster–when we are living the spirit-led life of course. And we know when life is spirit-led because truth has the flavor of God.

    It requires great courage to face genuine truth, partial truth needs less courage. Falsehood involves little or no courage. The truth of how God can personally be present with every member of the universal family everywhere in the cosmos at the same time, and still be our One Universal Sovereign who (in perfection mind you) upholds, powers, and guides the Universe, is explained by saying simply, omnipresence and omnipotence are divine prerogatives. That puts a label on, but explains nothing. The Truth of God is the greatest mystery of all, but we always know Father exists, because we and the cosmos exist. A real and vibrant piece of Father lives inside us, seeking to reveal the truth, offer constant embrace, even seek our loving attention and eternal friendship.

    …God is absolute truth. As truth one may know God, but to understand–to explain–God, one must explore the fact of the universe of universes…. (1125.1) 102:6.6.

       The greatest and most real of all truths is God. To grasp the total reality, meaning and value of truth up to our capacity, we must view things as God does, become God-like. To know Father’s truth in perfection we will become living truth, as only we can. We will want to know everything about God before actually meeting God on Paradise, in person. That’ll be a Moment of Truth, won’t it!

    We have to thank our heavenly Father for providing innumerable teachers and countless lives to attain the absolute level of understanding of truth, such as we can. Of course, after reaching the Source of Truth on Paradise, we will serve endlessly bringing divine truth to our less advanced siblings, those still seeking truth. As we are now.

    If God is the source, center and destiny of all truth, personality, value, meaning and purpose, then truth for us personally is how we relate to Father on the spiritual/personal level. If God is Truth and we are children of God, what is truth to us??

    Whatever the truth is to us, it is not a boring universe. Life is a challenge! The space/time cosmos was created as our school and our cruising ground, a vast arena where we learn, grow, advance in spirit and service, in wisdom and knowledge, and where we perfect the God-like act of revealing truth. The universe is made so we can eventually find and live truth, but it takes effort. No hurry, no worry, every worthy goal will be reached if we, each day relentlessly, joyously, and willingly, seek the advice and counsel of our on-board truth indicator, also known as the Spirit of Truth. God thinks of everything.

    …Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service…. (1917.3) 176:3.7

    ***

    Richard E Warren

  15. Dear Family,

    Here’s some crusts set aside:

    #20242 We were born in abject ignorance, without the knowledge of even the concept of truth. Rick Warren

    In my perspective, Rick, I do not consider ignorance as ”abject” since it has been our lot to experience. Our Father is well aware of our ignorance’s state. I consider it as part of His Plan to ascensionate His children who incubate through time and space.

    But your sentences well define ours misfortunes challenging opportunities.

    #20244… which must be why they advise us to avoid making personal plans. Rick Warren

    mumble/mumble/mumble …  Why such an advice Rick?

     

    #20245  Bonita, you have a sense of humour delectable and using a colorful English vocabulary.

    #20301   Hooray!  Thanks Bradly.  You’re the only person in the entire TUB community who agrees with me on this.  It means a lot to me.

    Dear Bonita, as part of TUB community I read, think and enjoy those in depth conversations.

    I’’ ll not qualified those conversations as ‘’intellectuals’’ because I abhor labelled human beings since intellect is part of processing knowledge through our mind.  114:6.19, 0:6.8

    Nope! I just step aside and take pleasure on all yours ‘’point of view’’. Grabbing bits who are digestible and mumbling intellectually with my mind as pensive, inspiring and reflective modes.

    Thanks all for those 2 first pages red on ”Truth”.

    …

     

  16. Dear Family, Here’s some crusts set aside: #20242 We were born in abject ignorance, without the knowledge of even the concept of truth. Rick Warren In my perspective, Rick, I do not consider ignorance as ”abject” since it has been our lot to experience. Our Father is well aware of our ignorance’s state. I consider it as part of His Plan to ascensionate His children who incubate through time and space. But your sentences well define ours misfortunes challenging opportunities.

    Abject can mean low or base, but more often it means pitiful or woeful. You are right. Complete would be a better word than abject, thanks Andre.

    andre wrote: #20244… which must be why they advise us to avoid making personal plans. Rick Warren mumble/mumble/mumble … Why such an advice Rick?

    It’s from an Archangel in Paper 48, Andre:

    …Even as mortals, so have these angels been father to many disappointments, and they will point out that sometimes your most disappointing disappointments have become your greatest blessings. Sometimes the planting of a seed necessitates its death, the death of your fondest hopes, before it can be reborn to bear the fruits of new life and new opportunity. And from them you will learn to suffer less through sorrow and disappointment, first, by making fewer personal plans concerning other personalities, and then, by accepting your lot when you have faithfully performed your duty…. (555.4) 48:6.36

    andre wrote:

    Thanks all for those 2 first pages red on ”Truth”. …

    Thank you for the comments/reply.

    .

    Richard E Warren

  17. andre wrote: Bonita, you have a sense of humour delectable and using a colorful English vocabulary.

    Is that a complement?  If so, thanks.  But I’ve been told otherwise by the vocabulary police who think my words abrasive, acerbic, tactless, unfriendly and intolerant.  At least you understand sardonicism, so thanks again.  I wish you would post more often though.  I would find it delectable.

     

  18. Bonita,

    Feel at ease, enjoy the road. Must be aware, from Urantia, it’s rising and a bit bumpy.

    ;)

    p.s. complement or compliment, only you can discern or embrace both. lol.

  19. The young boy is standing behind his mother on the footpath, she is sitting at the outdoor table drinking her coffee.  He steps away behind her where she can’t see him, then trips and hurts his hand as he breaks his fall.  He starts to cry.  She turns, looks down at him and angrily says: Stop mucking about!

    There is no compassion, no understanding, no sympathy in her voice and actions because he has hurt himself.  He drags himself up, stops crying and slowly comes back to the table.

    If I said to her: You don’t love your child, she’d probably angrily tell me to mind my own business.

    The boy being under seven years old is laying down the foundations of his life-patterns.  He’s forming beliefs based around the truth he is living.  Each circuit is being laid down within him like concrete.  He will grow into adulthood not remembering this ‘little episode’.  He will not understand that his mother doesn’t love him, that she showed it loud and clear to all the world.  I was the world in that moment – I saw, I was the silent witness, and I understood, because I too am that little boy.

    In this one small experience the relationship between the boy and his mother is flawed.  It’s unloving, it’s imperfect, it’s wrong – evil.  The mother is treating her son evilly.  And the boy feels such truth, but his mind will override such feelings.  He will grow up having imperfect and untrue relationships because that’s all he knows, it’s what he grew up on, what he was ‘fed’ – what he’s become.  He too will believe he is loving just as his mother no doubt does, yet many of his actions will belie such belief.  And one day, when he wants to know why his relationships keep failing – why he doesn’t actually feel good in life, he will want to know the truth.  And his quest for truth will ultimately lead him back to his relationship with his mother, father and other influential people in his forming years.

    For me this is what we’re to find the truth of: our rebellious states of being.  We are to uncover the truth of our evilness: Why we are wrong, why we are not expressing our personalities truly, why we are imperfect when we’ve been created by Perfection.  And anything else that is not helping us uncover the truth of our wrongness is only adding to our untruth.

    And as we can’t find the truth of ourselves, nature and God through our minds, so we need to look to our feelings.  Our feelings are the true part of us, they don’t lie, however they can be influenced and even corrupted to some degree by our minds, minds that have been led astray.

    So to uncover the truth we are to see about ourselves, we need to look to our feelings: What truth are they wanting us to see about ourselves?  What do we feel in each moment?

    What do you think about the notion that our feelings are the closest part of our personality to the truth?

    Hello to everyone on the forum.  I’ve only recently started reading it and have been enjoying such in-depth understanding of TUB.  I’d like to add my little bit.

    Zuimon.

  20. Welcome to the forum Zuimon.  I’m sorry to have our first discussion begin with a disagreement, but I must. When discussing feelings and emotions, one must be specific as to whether they are material feelings and emotions originating in the human mind, or divinely inspired feelings and emotions originating in the soul.
    Zuimon wrote: For me this is what we’re to find the truth of: our rebellious states of being.  We are to uncover the truth of our evilness: Why we are wrong, why we are not expressing our personalities truly, why we are imperfect when we’ve been created by Perfection.  And anything else that is not helping us uncover the truth of our wrongness is only adding to our untruth.

    This seems like a rather negative approach to the problem.  Why would you want to uncover your evilness?  Evil is just another word for imperfection.  Of course we are all imperfect but our goal in finding truth is to find our potential perfection, the source of which is the Adjuster who works with the soul, and when we have found our potential, embrace it wholeheartedly.  We grow in grace as we learn to identify with our potentially eternal self within the soul.

    101:2.14 Your deepest nature — the divine Adjuster — creates within you a hunger and thirst for righteousness, a certain craving for divine perfection.

    Nowhere in TUB does it say we’re supposed to self-examine and find our evilness.  That’s the backward and negative approach to truth.  Jesus taught us to look forward and positive.  He taught us rather than to self-examine (a negative approach), we should allow our righteous character to grow like the mustard seed (a positive approach).

    140:8.27 The three apostles were shocked this afternoon when they realized that their Master’s religion made no provision for spiritual self–examination. All religions before and after the times of Jesus, even Christianity, carefully provide for conscientious self–examination. But not so with the religion of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus’ philosophy of life is without religious introspection. The carpenter’s son never taught character building; he taught character growth, declaring that the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed. But Jesus said nothing which would proscribe self-analysis as a prevention of conceited egotism.

    148:4.6 By nature, before the rebirth of the spirit, mortal man is subject to inherent evil tendencies, but such natural imperfections of behavior are neither sin nor iniquity. Mortal man is just beginning his long ascent to the perfection of the Father in Paradise. To be imperfect or partial in natural endowment is not sinful.

    148:4.8 Men are, indeed, by nature evil, but not necessarily sinful.

    Zuimon wrote: And as we can’t find the truth of ourselves, nature and God through our minds, so we need to look to our feelings.  Our feelings are the true part of us, they don’t lie, however they can be influenced and even corrupted to some degree by our minds, minds that have been led astray.

    I can’t completely agree with that.  We actually do find truth through our minds.  The mind is the gateway to the soul where the truth lives.  It is our thoughts which guide us Godward, not our feelings.  Our human feelings maybe true or untrue, useful or useless.  Only the worshipful group of feelings have a potential of becoming true if they become elevated to soul level through the gateway of the spirits of worship and wisdom. Human feelings are part of the emotional life of the material mind.  Truth exists in the supermind, a supermaterial level of mind, where human material feelings do not exist.  Yes, souls do have divine feelings, supermaterial feelings, such as the feeling of the presence of God, but this is not derived from the human senses. It is a spiritual sense, more likely a morontia, or supermaterial sense.

    155:6.13 While the mind is not the seat of the spiritual nature, it is indeed the gateway thereto.

    101:1.3 The divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking. It is your thoughts, not your feelings, that lead you Godward. The divine nature may be perceived only with the eyes of the mind.

    180:5.3 Truth is a spiritual reality value experienced only by spirit-endowed beings who function upon supermaterial levels of universe consciousness, and who, after the realization of truth, permit its spirit of activation to live and reign within their souls.

    155:6.12 It is not so important that you should know about the fact of God as that you should increasingly grow in the ability to feel the presence of God.

    Zuimon wrote: So to uncover the truth we are to see about ourselves, we need to look to our feelings: What truth are they wanting us to see about ourselves?  What do we feel in each moment?
    Remember that material feelings lead to material actions.  If you want to find divine feelings, the presence of God, then do not practice self-evaluation, self-criticism.  What you need to do instead is pray and worship. Pray for spiritual insight into your soul where the presence of God exists.

    p1121:5 102:3.3 Material feelings, human emotions, lead directly to material actions, selfish acts. Religious insights, spiritual motivations, lead directly to religious actions, unselfish acts of social service and altruistic benevolence.

Reply on the current forum

↑ Back to top