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Who Knows "The Truth"? What is Truth? Where is Truth Found?

203 posts · 11 participants · started Mar 27, 2016, 11:58 AM

BonitaParticipant
Mar 29, 2016, 5:04 PM

Gene wrote: So maybe faith is the feed forward and truth the feedback in scientific terms that is

Haha. Not sure about that one. I think both can be considered feed forward, but on different levels. Feedback is iffy. Feedback can cause distortion.

I think that maybe faith is feed upward, while the fruits of the spirit, which come from soul levels of activated truth, are the result of flow outward. But I think it’s all rather elliptical, so none of this is really accurate. But it is fun to think about, so thanks.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 30, 2016, 11:24 AM

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote:

Truth has so many close relatives out here in time and space, doesn’t it? Like wisdom . . .

Hmmmm. I don’t know about close relatives . . . actually more like cousins. Wisdom and truth are on two different levels of reality. Recall the bit about the reality responses of the cosmic mind? Wisdom is at the level of duty, the moral and philosophic realm of mental reality. Truth is at the level of worship, the highest insight of the cosmic mind, which is the realm of the soul. Wisdom is an adjutant level of mind function; truth is a soul level of supermind (soul) function. They are related only when they become unified by personality.

180:5.2 Divine truth is a spirit-discerned and living reality. Truth exists only on high spiritual levels of the realization of divinity and the consciousness of communion with God. You can know the truth, and you can live the truth; you can experience the growth of truth in the soul and enjoy the liberty of its enlightenment in the mind, but you cannot imprison truth in formulas, codes, creeds, or intellectual patterns of human conduct. When you undertake the human formulation of divine truth, it speedily dies. The post-mortem salvage of imprisoned truth, even at best, can eventuate only in the realization of a peculiar form of intellectualized glorified wisdom. Static truth is dead truth, and only dead truth can be held as a theory. Living truth is dynamic and can enjoy only an experiential existence in the human mind. 180:5.3 Intelligence grows out of a material existence which is illuminated by the presence of the cosmic mind. Wisdom comprises the consciousness of knowledge elevated to new levels of meaning and activated by the presence of the universe endowment of the adjutant of wisdom. Truth is a spiritual reality value experienced only by spirit-endowed beings who function upon supermaterial levels of universe consciousness, and who, after the realization of truth, permit its spirit of activation to live and reign within their souls.

Thanks Bonita, for yet another overflowing basket of insight and reflection. Logic and intuition impinge on Truth too, with one on each end of the Truth spectrum, no?

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 30, 2016, 11:32 AM

Bonita wrote:

Gene wrote:

What say you about how faith may fit into all of this TBG stuff?

Well, since this topic is about truth, how about faith and truth? Consider this quote:

p1141:5 103:9.7 Faith most willingly carries reason along as far as reason can go and then goes on with wisdom to the full philosophic limit; and then it dares to launch out upon the limitless and never-ending universe journey in the sole company of TRUTH.

What they are saying here is that the adjutant mind thinks as best it can with its reason (science). Then, when utilizing the highest adjutant, the spirit of wisdom, the mind breaches the gateway to the soul. When wisdom has done all it can, when it has reached its full philosophic limit of adjutant thinking, it dares to think with the soul (a.k.a. soul-consciousness). Once you start thinking with the supermind at the soul level, you’re thinking in the soul company of TRUTH (the Spirit of Truth). Bingo! That means you’ve begun to do what the revelators have asked:

p2097:2 196:3.3 The great challenge to modern man is to achieve better communication with the divine Monitor that dwells within the human mind. Man’s greatest adventure in the flesh consists in the well-balanced and sane effort to advance the borders of self-consciousness out through the dim realms of embryonic soul-consciousness in a wholehearted effort to reach the borderland of spirit-consciousness—contact with the divine presence. Such an experience constitutes God-consciousness, an experience mightily confirmative of the pre-existent truth of the religious experience of knowing God. Such spirit-consciousness is the equivalent of the knowledge of the actuality of sonship with God. Otherwise, the assurance of sonship is the experience of faith.

As noted in the last sentence of that quote, anything below the level of the soul is achieved through faith. Truth is a soul level of reality. It does not require faith. That sounds almost blasphemous, doesn’t it? Faith is what carries you to truth; it carries you to the gateway of the soul where Truth lives. Truth is inconcussible (118:3.3), he’s an assurance, a certainty because truth is reality. Faith is the hope of the possibility of discovering truth (reality). The recognition of truth in the soul is an experience that gives certitude because Truth can be known and known now! Truth can be acted out and lived! Recognition of truth is a supermaterial reality phenomenon that is unshakable, meaning faith has already played its role in discovery. What is left then is allowing the Spirit of Truth to interpret (relationship) and the personality to choose. Discover, recognize, interpret and choose, that’s all you can do, and all you need to do. Faith and trust start the process.

102:2.4 Knowledge is an eternal quest; always are you learning, but never are you able to arrive at the full knowledge of absolute truth. In knowledge alone there can never be absolute certainty, only increasing probability of approximation; but the religious soul of spiritual illumination knows, and knows now. And yet this profound and positive certitude does not lead such a sound-minded religionist to take any less interest in the ups and downs of the progress of human wisdom, which is bound up on its material end with the developments of slow-moving science.

Does Bonita’s round (elliptical?) reply satisfy your goodly question, Gene?

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 30, 2016, 12:45 PM
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What do you think of this Wikipedia introduction to Truth, its accuracy, flaws, its relation to the revealed truth in the UB?

Truth is most often used to mean being in accord with fact or reality, [1] or fidelity to an original or standard. [1] Truth may also often be used in modern contexts to refer to an idea of “truth to self,” or authenticity.

The commonly understood opposite of truth is falsehood, which, correspondingly, can also take on a logical, factual, or ethical meaning. The concept of truth is discussed and debated in several contexts, including philosophy, art, and religion. Many human activities depend upon the concept, where its nature as a concept is assumed rather than being a subject of discussion; these include most (but not all) of the sciences, law, journalism, and everyday life. Some philosophers view the concept of truth as basic, and unable to be explained in any terms that are more easily understood than the concept of truth itself. Commonly, truth is viewed as the correspondence of language or thought to an independent reality, in what is sometimes called the correspondence theory of truth.

Other philosophers take this common meaning to be secondary and derivative. According to Martin Heidegger, the original meaning and essence of “Truth” in Ancient Greece was unconcealment, or the revealing or bringing of what was previously hidden into the open, as indicated by the original Greek term for truth, “Aletheia.” [3] On this view, the conception of truth as correctness is a later derivation from the concept’s original essence, a development Heidegger traces to the Latin term “Veritas.”

Pragmatists like C.S. Pierce take Truth to have some manner of essential relation to human practices for inquiring into and discovering Truth, with Pierce himself holding that Truth is what human inquiry would find out on a matter, if our practice of inquiry were taken as far as it could profitably go: “The opinion which is fated to be ultimately agreed to by all who investigate, is what we mean by the truth…” [4]

Various theories and views of truth continue to be debated among scholars, philosophers, and theologians. [5] Language and words are a means by which humans convey information to one another and the method used to determine what is a “truth” is termed a criterion of truth. There are differing claims on such questions as what constitutes truth: what things are truthbearers capable of being true or false; how to define and identify truth; the roles that faith-based and empirically based knowledge play; and whether truth is subjective or objective, relative or absolute.

Friedrich Nietzsche famously suggested that an ancient, metaphysical belief in the divinity of Truth lies at the heart of and has served as the foundation for the entire subsequent Western intellectual tradition: “But you will have gathered what I am getting at, namely, that it is still a metaphysical faith on which our faith in science rests–that even we knowers of today, we godless anti-metaphysicians still take our fire too, from the flame lit by the thousand-year old faith, the Christian faith which was also Plato’s faith, that God is Truth; that Truth is ‘Divine’…” [6][7]

Source: TRUTH

Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Mar 30, 2016, 2:22 PM

Rick Warren wrote: Logic and intuition impinge on Truth too, with one on each end of the Truth spectrum, no?

Not exactly. It depends on how you define both of those words, particularly intuition. The first adjutant, the spirit of intuition, is the adjutant that makes contact with the lowest forms of mind. It has to do with quick perception, quick understanding, instinctive and reflexive behavior and self-preservation. I don’t think you mean that kind of intuition, do you? You probably mean spiritual intuition or spiritual insight?

36:5.6 1. The spirit of intuition — quick perception, the primitive physical and inherent reflex instincts, the directional and other self-preservative endowments of all mind creations; the only one of the adjutants to function so largely in the lower orders of animal life and the only one to make extensive functional contact with the nonteachable levels of mechanical mind.

Logic may not lead to truth, but I think truth is logical. I don’t think logic should be abandoned in the search for truth. TUB describes an adult form of logic which is part of truth-seeking. So, I’m not sure if it’s at one end of the truth continuum or rather an integral part of finding truth as a human being here on terra firma. I don’t think we mortals can integrate reality without logic. Even if we find truth in our souls, we have to keep it alive, not only in the spiritual realm, but in the mental and physical realms as well. We have to live on earth, not just above it.

102:6.9 Intelligent men should cease to reason like children and should attempt to use the consistent logic of adulthood, logic which tolerates the concept of truth alongside the observation of fact.

103:7.3 Logic is the synthetic truth-seeking progression of the unity of faith and reason and is founded on the constitutive mind endowments of mortal beings, the innate recognition of things, meanings, and values.
BonitaParticipant
Mar 30, 2016, 2:41 PM

Rick Warren wrote: (Concerning C. S. Pierce) “The opinion which is fated to be ultimately agreed to by all who investigate, is what we mean by the truth…”

Whenever you see the phrase “the truth”, you know that they’re really talking about facts. “The truth” is a thing. Truth is a person. If I called Rick, “the Rick”, I would be debasing him to the status of a fact or thing. Or, like the example of calling Mr. Trump “The Donald”, which gives him a facetiously derogatory title, also a thing. So, the opinion ultimately agreed to by all who investigate is fact, not truth. I think people confuse the two words very often. Then there are those who would sanctify fact to the level of a spirit and give it a title . . . a whole different problem. Criminy!
BradlyParticipant
Mar 30, 2016, 4:18 PM
Agree that facts are true but can never be truth. Indeed many lies contain fact or that which is true and the best lies are mostly or completely “true” or based on fact…but are nonetheless deceptions, falsehoods, and lies. This is why I have come to agree with Bonita that the so called spirit of fact is an error that is disassociated from the Spirit of Truth as truth is far more than fact. The Papers are filled with facts and endless truths may be discovered by their living but not merely by their reading. Truth, like faith, is an expression of knowledge and perspective at the moments of choosing and if truth and faith do not determine the choice made, then is there truth or faith?

I think truth is always based on the intersection of relationships or a personality and a situation or circumstance and the quality of such truth is measured by the reality response to one another or within situation/circumstance where the personality makes choices based on love. Is there truth without love? There are facts without love to be sure. And there is logic and intuition and insight without love.

But truth requires the spirit to be real and to access and to discern and to activate by its living. Truth is not known so much as it is lived and expressed….much like love itself I think. And it is functionally dependent upon love – the foundational reality of all other reality.

That which is true is not truth and truth is not truth if it is not lived and expressed. Can’t live or express fact – but we must interact with facts as well as with people and within circumstances and situations amidst our confusions and uncertainties. We can live a life based on ignorance, self importance, fear, and a whole host of unrealities but does such a life and person know truth? Truth is found in choosing and acting and its quality is determined according to the motives and intentions of the one choosing and acting I think. Truth is found in love and in service….or it will not be found at all.

Great discussion…thanks to all.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Mar 30, 2016, 5:18 PM

Bradly wrote: . . . This is why I have come to agree with Bonita that the so called spirit of fact is an error . . .

Hooray! Thanks Bradly. You’re the only person in the entire TUB community who agrees with me on this. It means a lot to me. And you’re right in thinking that living truth is “based on the intersection of relationships” experienced by personalities. However, the concept of truth might exist without personality, it just isn’t living until it intersects with personality (an experiential relationship). Facts are static, unchanging. Truth is alive which demands relations.

1:7.3 The concept of truth might possibly be entertained apart from personality, . . .

102:7.2 The fact of God, the divine law, is changeless; the truth of God, his relation to the universe, is a relative revelation which is ever adaptable to the constantly evolving universe.

There are only three elements in universe reality: fact, idea and relation. (102:7.2) Notice that the word truth doesn’t show up as a universe reality. The reason is because relation is truth. I don’t think it’s an accident that the Spirit of Truth is the living spirit relationship between all things and beings.

56:10.13 The recognition of true relations implies a mind competent to discriminate between truth and error. The bestowal Spirit of Truth which invests the human minds of Urantia is unerringly responsive to truth — the living spirit relationship of all things and all beings as they are co-ordinated in the eternal ascent Godward.
Nigel NunnParticipant
Mar 30, 2016, 7:34 PM
Thanks all for such an interesting discussion! Bonita wrote:

“[…] I don’t think we mortals can integrate reality without logic. Even if we find truth in our souls, we have to keep it alive, not only in the spiritual realm, but in the mental and physical realms as well. We have to live on earth, not just above it.”

Hi Bonita, nicely put. If we think of truth as a technique for the assurance for pre-spiritual persons (1111.4, 101:5.14), then the “integrated reality” made accessible by Michael’s Divine Minister makes possible the very existence of such pre-spiritual persons.

And this touches the heart of what I was trying to imply with those paragraphs about one of the Divine Minister’s roles. Think of the way she serves as mediator for the 3 cosmic intuitions — how she makes accessible those distinct “intuitions of validity” that complement so perfectly Michael’s Spirit of Truth. These are the intuitions that help us discover, recognize and integrate the facts of reality: the fact of the adjuster’s presence, the fact that truth is made accessible, the fact of our Father’s personality circuit, the fact of the I AM, etc. These are the sort of facts I had in mind when I described one of her roles as “Spirit of Fact”; the sort of facts that serve as reliable and enduring foundation upon which living truth can grow.

Perhaps “Spirit of Fact” (or Spirit of the Meaning of Fact) was lazy shorthand. How about “Spirit of Reality Sensitivity” to define her role as mindal humidicrib, within which Michael’s Spirit of Truth can meet baby souls?

PS: For me (having suffered 6 years of Latin), fact brings to mind the roots of perfection: (per) thoroughly (feci/factum) made/done.

Nigel
BradlyParticipant
Mar 30, 2016, 8:47 PM
Hey Nigel!!!!

I wonder if you are stating or inferring that truth is operational only in “baby souls”? Or is the Mother’s Spirit that you think makes the Son’s gift operational in the ascender’s soul? Sorry for my confusion. Truth abides for the discovery and utilization of all minds don’t you think? I’m reminded of the falsehoods which deliver rebellion and how truth can be lost by some for a season, even the angels and lower Sons. All mind + personality in time and space has free will for the acquirement of wisdom by the choices in experience – the discovery and embrace and expressions of truth. The more truth lived, the more real or reality aligned is life.

Also please expand on your idea about “reality sensitivity”. What is the role of epochal revelation in delivering “facts” of reality if the Mother’s Spirit were delivering reality sensitivity….I mean, the mortal epochs in Paper 52 would indicate that learning the facts of reality takes a long time by both example and education and we are given very few examples of those individuals who “saw” or otherwise perceived any realities of cosmology. But I am reminded that prior to the Son’s Spirit, the Father fragments are few enough so that the worlds of “baby souls” are ministered to only by or primarily by the Mother’s Spirit – so what is learned thereby? Where does the desire to know God and the ability to find God come from when the Son and Father’s spirits do not attend us? How is truth discovered at the intersections of living without them? Is there more than the Adjutants at work? Thanks for your insights.

From Rick’s Wiki post above:

“Other philosophers take this common meaning to be secondary and derivative. According to Martin Heidegger, the original meaning and essence of “Truth” in Ancient Greece was unconcealment, or the revealing or bringing of what was previously hidden into the open, as indicated by the original Greek term for truth, “Aletheia.” [3] On this view, the conception of truth as correctness is a later derivation from the concept’s original essence, a development Heidegger traces to the Latin term “Veritas.””

Would not “unconcealment” also equate to auto/personal revelation? Why is it, I wonder, that different students of the Papers discover different truths one from another and why does one student find new truths with every reading? What role has experience and wisdom in the recognition and the utilization of truth? While facts are changeless, truth changes everything including truth itself as it is revealed to us and then activated and applied by our free will. I recall the many rungs on the golden rule – every one a deeper and truer revelation and experience and expression of love – the more love applied with the more wisdom in every situation and circumstance and response, the more truth there is to be found or the more it is revealed.

Truth is revealed more than “discovered” I think….revealed within choice based on our inner most motive in choice and most sincere intent in act tempered by the wisdom with which all choice is made. Which of the Divine Spirits delivers personal revelation? For such is active prior to the Son’s gift as well as afterward.

Looking only for conversation and illumination here….my uncertainties far outweigh my clarity!!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Mar 30, 2016, 10:29 PM

Bradly wrote: Or is the Mother’s Spirit that you think makes the Son’s gift operational in the ascender’s soul?

Hey Bradly. I know you aren’t talking to me, but I wanted to add something I forgot to include in an earlier post. Previously I said, “In the soul, the Holy Spirit has her own presence (34:4.7) while providing the focus for the Spirit of Truth. They work in concert as a dual spirit liaison (34:5.4).” I would like to explain why the Holy Spirit is the focus for the Spirit of Truth.

Michael’s Spirit of Truth is not handicapped by time but is by space. He can be in contact with every mind on this planet, all at the same time. But we are not just time creatures; we are time-space creatures. He cannot be in every space on the planet at the same time. He can only be in a properly prepared mind, one prepared by the Holy Spirit. Why? One of the reasons is that the Holy Spirit is not handicapped by space, but is by time, she provides the “space” for him to do this. Together they solve the space-time problem of reaching every one of their creatures in space, and do it all at the same time.

So, other things to think about include things like: What are the differences between the Holy Spirit and Divine Minister? Does the Holy Spirit do everything the Divine Minister does? Is the Holy Spirit or the Divine Minister the same thing as the cosmic mind? Or are they different in some way? How are the adjutants related to all of this? Why do they call the Creative Spirit in the soul the Holy Spirit, but elsewhere she’s referred to by a different name? Where is the personality of the Divine Minister and how does it relate to the Holy Spirit? Where is the Michael’s personality and how does it relate to the Spirit of Truth? What’s the difference between presence and personality? Lots to discuss when it comes to understanding this, but I think it probably will detract from this thread to go into it right now.

Even more questions to ask are, 1.) Are the words fact and reality synonymous? 2.) Are facts and truth the same type of reality? 3.)Are facts ever a revelation? 4.) Can fact consciousness lead to truth consciousness? 5.) Is there such a thing as knowledge of truth, or is truth always experienced? 6.)What role does the Holy Spirit play in truth experience. I have dozens more, but it’s dinner time.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 31, 2016, 11:23 AM

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote: Logic and intuition impinge on Truth too, with one on each end of the Truth spectrum, no?

Not exactly. It depends on how you define both of those words, particularly intuition. The first adjutant, the spirit of intuition, is the adjutant that makes contact with the lowest forms of mind. It has to do with quick perception, quick understanding, instinctive and reflexive behavior and self-preservation. I don’t think you mean that kind of intuition, do you? You probably mean spiritual intuition or spiritual insight?

36:5.6 1. The spirit of intuition — quick perception, the primitive physical and inherent reflex instincts, the directional and other self-preservative endowments of all mind creations; the only one of the adjutants to function so largely in the lower orders of animal life and the only one to make extensive functional contact with the nonteachable levels of mechanical mind.

Logic may not lead to truth, but I think truth is logical. I don’t think logic should be abandoned in the search for truth. TUB describes an adult form of logic which is part of truth-seeking. So, I’m not sure if it’s at one end of the truth continuum or rather an integral part of finding truth as a human being here on terra firma. I don’t think we mortals can integrate reality without logic. Even if we find truth in our souls, we have to keep it alive, not only in the spiritual realm, but in the mental and physical realms as well. We have to live on earth, not just above it.

102:6.9 Intelligent men should cease to reason like children and should attempt to use the consistent logic of adulthood, logic which tolerates the concept of truth alongside the observation of fact.103:7.3 Logic is the synthetic truth-seeking progression of the unity of faith and reason and is founded on the constitutive mind endowments of mortal beings, the innate recognition of things, meanings, and values.

Yes, good guess, I did mean spiritual insight. And thanks for cogent reflections on logic and intuition. That last quote brings to mind the question: Does “innate recognition” come only with maturity, like logic and reason. Can a babe recognize meanings and values? What is truth to a child? An evolving realization perhaps…but then truth evolves for us all, child or adult, no? Even after reaching Paradise, more will be revealed as the Universe continues to unfold via the Supreme, Ultimate and Absolute.

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 31, 2016, 11:30 AM

Bonita wrote:

Whenever you see the phrase “the truth”, you know that they’re really talking about facts…

Picking up on that point, now that we know real truth lives, is a person, and since the same experience can have as many interpretations as witnesses, shouldn’t we think about amending the courtroom oath to something like this?

“Do you swear to give the facts, all the facts and nothing but the facts?”, instead of “Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?”

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 31, 2016, 11:42 AM

Bradly wrote:

Agree that facts are true but can never be truth. Indeed many lies contain fact or that which is true and the best lies are mostly or completely “true” or based on fact…but are nonetheless deceptions, falsehoods, and lies. This is why I have come to agree with Bonita that the so called spirit of fact is an error that is disassociated from the Spirit of Truth as truth is far more than fact. The Papers are filled with facts and endless truths may be discovered by their living but not merely by their reading. Truth, like faith, is an expression of knowledge and perspective at the moments of choosing and if truth and faith do not determine the choice made, then is there truth or faith? I think truth is always based on the intersection of relationships or a personality and a situation or circumstance and the quality of such truth is measured by the reality response to one another or within situation/circumstance where the personality makes choices based on love. Is there truth without love? There are facts without love to be sure. And there is logic and intuition and insight without love. But truth requires the spirit to be real and to access and to discern and to activate by its living. Truth is not known so much as it is lived and expressed….much like love itself I think. And it is functionally dependent upon love – the foundational reality of all other reality. That which is true is not truth and truth is not truth if it is not lived and expressed. Can’t live or express fact – but we must interact with facts as well as with people and within circumstances and situations amidst our confusions and uncertainties. We can live a life based on ignorance, self importance, fear, and a whole host of unrealities but does such a life and person know truth? Truth is found in choosing and acting and its quality is determined according to the motives and intentions of the one choosing and acting I think. Truth is found in love and in service….or it will not be found at all. Great discussion…thanks to all.

Thank YOU, for great comments, and tying truth and love together. The authors equated the two and included goodness and beauty–more than once:

…Jesus revealed a God of love, and love is all-embracing of truth, beauty, and goodness…. (67.4) 5:4.6

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…He exalted love — truth, beauty, and goodness — as the divine ideal and the eternal reality…. 140:8:31

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 31, 2016, 12:02 PM

Bonita wrote:

Bradly wrote: . . . This is why I have come to agree with Bonita that the so called spirit of fact is an error . . .

Hooray! Thanks Bradly. You’re the only person in the entire TUB community who agrees with me on this. It means a lot to me. And you’re right in thinking that living truth is “based on the intersection of relationships” experienced by personalities. However, the concept of truth might exist without personality, it just isn’t living until it intersects with personality (an experiential relationship). Facts are static, unchanging. Truth is alive which demands relations.

1:7.3 The concept of truth might possibly be entertained apart from personality, . . . 102:7.2 The fact of God, the divine law, is changeless; the truth of God, his relation to the universe, is a relative revelation which is ever adaptable to the constantly evolving universe.

There are only three elements in universe reality: fact, idea and relation. (102:7.2) Notice that the word truth doesn’t show up as a universe reality. The reason is because relation is truth. I don’t think it’s an accident that the Spirit of Truth is the living spirit relationship between all things and beings.

56:10.13 The recognition of true relations implies a mind competent to discriminate between truth and error. The bestowal Spirit of Truth which invests the human minds of Urantia is unerringly responsive to truth — the living spirit relationship of all things and all beings as they are co-ordinated in the eternal ascent Godward.

Curious why you think the UB community is against you in saying the supposed spirit of fact is prone to error. I’m not.

But you bring a good point with that word “relative”. The authors use it many times in association with truth:

…Truth is relative and expanding; it lives always in the present, achieving new expression in each generation of men–even in each human life…. (888:1) 79:8.8

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…All finite knowledge and creature understanding are relative. Information and intelligence, gleaned from even high sources, is only relatively complete, locally accurate, and personally true…. (42.2) 2:7.1

.…Truth remains unchanged from generation to generation, but the associated teachings about the physical world vary from day to day and from year to year…. (1119:2) 102:1.3

…That which apparently may be wholly true in one place may be only relatively true in another segment of creation…. (42:3) 2:7.2

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…Though reason can always question faith, faith can always supplement both reason and logic. Reason creates the probability which faith can transform into a moral certainty, even a spiritual experience. God is the first truth and the last fact; therefore does all truth take origin in him, while all facts exist relative to him…. (1125:1) 102:6.6

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 31, 2016, 12:19 PM

Nigel Nunn wrote:

Thanks all for such an interesting discussion! Bonita wrote:

“[…] I don’t think we mortals can integrate reality without logic. Even if we find truth in our souls, we have to keep it alive, not only in the spiritual realm, but in the mental and physical realms as well. We have to live on earth, not just above it.” Hi Bonita, nicely put. If we think of truth as a technique for the assurance for pre-spiritual persons (1111.4, 101:5.14), then the “integrated reality” made accessible by Michael’s Divine Minister makes possible the very existence of such pre-spiritual persons. And this touches the heart of what I was trying to imply with those paragraphs about one of the Divine Minister’s roles. Think of the way she serves as mediator for the 3 cosmic intuitions — how she makes accessible those distinct “intuitions of validity” that complement so perfectly Michael’s Spirit of Truth. These are the intuitions that help us discover, recognize and integrate the facts of reality: the fact of the adjuster’s presence, the fact that truth is made accessible, the fact of our Father’s personality circuit, the fact of the I AM, etc. These are the sort of facts I had in mind when I described one of her roles as “Spirit of Fact”; the sort of facts that serve as reliable and enduring foundation upon which living truth can grow. Perhaps “Spirit of Fact” (or Spirit of the Meaning of Fact) was lazy shorthand. How about “Spirit of Reality Sensitivity” to define her role as mindal humidicrib, within which Michael’s Spirit of Truth can meet baby souls? PS: For me (having suffered 6 years of Latin), fact brings to mind the roots of perfection: (per) thoroughly (feci/factum) made/done. Nigel

Thanks for the comments Nigel, and the connection to the intuitions. For reference sake, here are the three cosmic intuitions:

^(192.2) ^16:6.6 1. Causation — the reality domain of the physical senses, the scientific realms of logical uniformity, the differentiation of the factual and the nonfactual, reflective conclusions based on cosmic response. This is the mathematical form of the cosmic discrimination.

^(192.3) ^16:6.7 2. Duty — the reality domain of morals in the philosophic realm, the arena of reason, the recognition of relative right and wrong. This is the judicial form of the cosmic discrimination.

^(192.4) ^16:6.8 3. Worship — the spiritual domain of the reality of religious experience, the personal realization of divine fellowship, the recognition of spirit values, the assurance of eternal survival, the ascent from the status of servants of God to the joy and liberty of the sons of God. This is the highest insight of the cosmic mind, the reverential and worshipful form of the cosmic discrimination.

Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 31, 2016, 12:29 PM

Bradly wrote:

…Why is it, I wonder, that different students of the Papers discover different truths one from another and why does one student find new truths with every reading? What role has experience and wisdom in the recognition and the utilization of truth?

Excellent questions, Bradly. Seems like the answers have to relate to that oft cited relativity of all truth out here in time and space. We begin with facts which gradually fall away ‘unconcealing’ the underlying Truth(s), no?

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 31, 2016, 12:34 PM

Bonita wrote:

Bradly wrote: Or is the Mother’s Spirit that you think makes the Son’s gift operational in the ascender’s soul?

Hey Bradly. I know you aren’t talking to me, but I wanted to add something I forgot to include in an earlier post. Previously I said, “In the soul, the Holy Spirit has her own presence (34:4.7) while providing the focus for the Spirit of Truth. They work in concert as a dual spirit liaison (34:5.4).” I would like to explain why the Holy Spirit is the focus for the Spirit of Truth. Michael’s Spirit of Truth is not time-limited. He can be in contact with every mind on this planet, all at the same time. But we are not just time creatures; we are time-space creatures. He cannot be in every space on the planet at the same time. He can only be in a properly prepared mind, one prepared by the Holy Spirit. Why? One of the reasons is that the Holy Spirit is not space-limited, she provides the “space” for him to do this. Together they solve the space-time problem of reaching every one of their creatures in space, and do it all at the same time. So, other things to think about include things like: What are the differences between the Holy Spirit and Divine Minister? Does the Holy Spirit do everything the Divine Minister does? Is the Holy Spirit or the Divine Minister the same thing as the cosmic mind? Or are they different in some way? How are the adjutants related to all of this? Why do they call the Creative Spirit in the soul the Holy Spirit, but elsewhere she’s referred to by a different name? Where is the personality of the Divine Minister and how does it relate to the Holy Spirit? Where is the Michael’s personality and how does it relate to the Spirit of Truth? What’s the difference between presence and personality? Lots to discuss when it comes to understanding this, but I think it probably will detract from this thread to go into it right now. Even more questions to ask are, 1.) Are the words fact and reality synonymous? 2.) Are facts and truth the same type of reality? 3.)Are facts ever a revelation? 4.) Can fact consciousness lead to truth consciousness? 5.) Is there such a thing as knowledge of truth, or is truth always experienced? 6.)What role does the Holy Spirit play in truth experience. I have dozens more, but it’s dinner time.

Thanks for the feast of questions! Some do relate directly to this thread: “Where is the Michael’s personality and how does it relate to the Spirit of Truth? Are the words fact and reality synonymous? Are facts and truth the same type of reality? Are facts ever a revelation? Can fact consciousness lead to truth consciousness? Is there such a thing as knowledge of truth, or is truth always experienced? What role does the Holy Spirit play in truth experience.”

Bradly, you’re up

Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Mar 31, 2016, 4:56 PM

Rick Warren wrote: Does “innate recognition” come only with maturity, like logic and reason. Can a babe recognize meanings and values? What is truth to a child? An evolving realization perhaps…but then truth evolves for us all, child or adult, no?

Great questions Rick. Innate recognition covers a lot of ground from adjutants to Adjuster, and then there’s personality. Personality has its own innate ability to recognize morality. (112:0.11) When it comes to the quote in question, the innate recognition of things, meanings and values, I think we’re referring to the cosmic mind in conjunction with other spirit influences, particularly the Spirit of Truth and the Adjuster.

16:6.9 These scientific, moral, and spiritual insights, these cosmic responses, are innate in the cosmic mind, which endows all will creatures. The experience of living never fails to develop these three cosmic intuitions; they are constitutive in the self-consciousness of reflective thinking. But it is sad to record that so few persons on Urantia take delight in cultivating these qualities of courageous and independent cosmic thinking.

I think we’re born with personality and volition, but the free-will of a baby is limited by the state of its mental development. When each of the five lower adjutants make contact with the developing brain and mind of a baby is matter of opinion, but we do know that all seven make contact somewhere between age five and six. At this time the limited free-will of the baby shows willingness to be guided by spirit and thus experiences more liberty to explore its innate abilities to discern the difference between truth and error, as well as things, meanings and values. Innate abilities are given to us by personality and mind ministry, but they evolve and need to be developed. The above quote tells us development is through reflective thinking and independent cosmic thinking. (I’m struggling to explain this with as few words as possible, so I hope it’s making sense.)

I think children more readily recognize truth because they are more likely to trust what experience as real. Truth is an experience, not an intellectual exercise, so truth can be experienced even by people with limited intellect as long as they have a soul. Truth is a soul experience.

130:4.10 Knowledge is demonstrable; truth is experienced. Knowledge is a possession of the mind; truth an experience of the soul . . .

In fact, Jesus said that the spiritual simplicity, easy-believing and full-trusting child is an example of the attitude we should adopt if we wish to realize the presence of God.

155:6.12 Many of your brethren have minds which accept the theory of God while they spiritually fail to realize the presence of God. And that is just the reason why I have so often taught you that the kingdom of heaven can best be realized by acquiring the spiritual attitude of a sincere child. It is not the mental immaturity of the child that I commend to you but rather the spiritual simplicity of such an easy-believing and fully-trusting little one.

Yeah, I agree that truth evolves, it changes. It has to change because truth is an experience of the soul and the soul dies if it doesn’t change. The soul is also a relationship, which is what truth is all about, as I tried to explain in a former post.
BonitaParticipant
Mar 31, 2016, 5:13 PM

Rick Warren wrote: Curious why you think the UB community is against you in saying the supposed spirit of fact is prone to error. I’m not.

You have never given your opinion on the subject. Now that you have, I thank you also.

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