249 posts · 14 participants · started Jan 13, 2016, 1:00 PM
Rene needs a haircut
taking a small slice from paper 100 – probably not too far out of context and rings a bell with his “I think therefore I am” insight:
“growth is also predicated on the discovery of selfhood accompanied by self-criticism – conscience, for conscience is really the criticism of ones’ own value-habits, personal ideals.”
isnt self criticism akin to doubting ones-self? A mental exercise of healthy growth?
Rene needs a haircut…taking a small slice from paper 100 – probably not too far out of context and rings a bell with his “I think therefore I am” insight: “growth is also predicated on the discovery of selfhood accompanied by self-criticism – conscience, for conscience is really the criticism of ones’ own value-habits, personal ideals.” isnt self criticism akin to doubting ones-self? A mental exercise of healthy growth?
Agree Gene, surely honest self assessment has a place in spiritual growth. But Rene’s pithy saying, “I think therefore I am”, never rang quite true to me. ‘I know God, therefore I am’, might be closer to the truth of it, eh?
In spite of errors in his thinking, Descartes was a famous teacher of philosophy. He has been given the moniker: “father of Western philosophy”. Philosophy has come a long way, and now it has been given a great boost from the UB authors. A UB/philosophy student on another forum gave permission to repost this bit of insight on educating young ones, she wrote:
“Would that more states in the U.S. require the study of philosophy in grammar school and high school in order to train students to THINK and to use their minds more effectively, with discipline, in solving the problems of daily life, not to mention broad social, political, economic, and environmental issues! Part of philosophy training involves learning how to communicate skillfully – an ability which goes a long way in successfully getting along with other people and getting work accomplished well.”
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Richard E Warren
But Rene’s pithy saying, “I think therefore I am”, never rang quite true to me.
It rings true to me. I tried to point this out before. Both my life and my mind are gifts from the same person, the Creative Spirit. You can’t have human life without mind. In fact, it is the mind that produces the body.
42:12.2 Mind is always creative. The mind endowment of an individual animal, mortal, morontian, spirit ascender, or finality attainer is always competent to produce a suitable and serviceable body for the living creature identity.
I hear ya Bonita,
But I was thinking (!) that a more accurate axiom to drive Western philosophy for centuries might have been: God is, therefore I am. Or how about this?: I AM is, therefore am I.
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Richard E Warren
But Rick, I think! that you are approaching this as a theologian rather than a philosopher.
103:9.6 The mission of theology is merely to facilitate the self-consciousness of personal spiritual experience.
196:3.30 Philosophy is man’s attempt at the unification of human experience.
But Rick, I think! that you are approaching this as a theologian rather than a philosopher.
But, but, Bonita, God is the very foundation of philosophy, personal living Truth, Goodness and Beauty in absolute eternal, infinite perfection. And that ain’t all! God must needs be the First Philosopher, if philosophy’s essence is Unity. Now will you say: ‘But, but, but, Rick, God only provided the potential for philosophy, a necessity in time/space’? ‘No need for it outside the evolving universes’?
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Richard E Warren
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PS. Are you saying once God is brought into philosophy, it automatically becomes theology?
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Richard E Warren
God, spiritual reality, is only one end of the philosophical seesaw, the other end is material reality. If you bring philosophy too far to one end or the other, it is out of balance and doesn’t work.
103:6.14 When the philosophy of man leans heavily toward the world of matter, it becomes rationalistic or naturalistic. When philosophy inclines particularly toward the spiritual level, it becomes idealistic or even mystical.
By insisting that philosophy always incline toward the spiritual level, you are making the same error that theologians do, placing all your weight on one end of the seesaw.
PS. Are you saying once God is brought into philosophy, it automatically becomes theology?
Did I say that? Can’t recall it.
God, spiritual reality, is only one end of the philosophical seesaw, the other end is material reality. If you bring philosophy too far to one end or the other, it is out of balance and doesn’t work.
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Hmm….seems it might be more out of balance to attempt creating a philosophy without God at the center.
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Richard E Warren
Well, if God is the fulcrum, what is at the two ends of the seesaw?
It seems to me y’all are chasing realism, its definition and scope for life. I’ve thought for decades Jesus was a good model for identifying what is real, that is as he found life in his day, that he wanted to know what is real. As he aged he became more aware of what is real for men and became more aware of his Father’s business. We could open up more on Urantia. Note this from 195:6.4:
At the time of this writing the worst of the materialistic age is over; the day of a better understanding is already beginning to dawn. The higher minds of the scientific world are no longer wholly materialistic in their philosophy, but the rank and file of the people still lean in that direction as a result of former teachings. But this age of physical realism is only a passing episode in man’s life on earth. Modern science has left true religion — the teachings of Jesus as translated in the lives of his believers — untouched. All science has done is to destroy the childlike illusions of the misinterpretations of life.
Note the words “better understanding”. Of what? The answer is: What is real. Recall the discussion in the UB about what is real? We are told God is the only Real. The material is not real to high spiritual beings and we lower material ones find total spiritual as difficult to recognize as real. The writer above tells us the “rank and file still lean” in the material direction.
So, we’d be right to work our minds around realism and people are right to find methods for the rank and file to like what is real. A lot more could be said on that point!!!!
Let our chase for what is real be attractive for the rank and file.
Great discussion….thanks to all. If philosophy is that which binds, balances, and harmonizes the dual human nature and if it is a perspective which determines our motives, intentions, and priorities in free will choice – then, philosophy cannot be either of the extremes it seeks to unite into a functional way of thinking and/or being….or choosing. Philosophy is a perspective, a lense through which we perceive reality and make choices based upon the unifying perspective.
We are taught the challenge of transferring the seat of our identity from the material to the spiritual is what leads to spiritual growth, circle progress, experiential wisdom, and discernment. But the reality of both those extremes does not change…God is not made more material and the material is not made more godly or spiritual by this transfer of our internal identity – or with that which we identify ourselves with. A true and functional philosophy depends upon the philosopher to have God as our center of being – but I agree with Bonita that this does not change God’s point on the seesaw spectrum. A true and functional philosophy rests at the pivot point of the extremes to find the balance required for the harmonization of reality….total reality for us is extremely material and extremely spiritual at the same time.
While we are to identify with Spirit, we cannot abandon the material….it is not irrelevant during our ascendency regardless of our spiritization, indeed, it is the means or the roadway for ascendency….time and space and free will bring value to the material nature and opportunity to the spiritual nature. Our alignment with Spirit requires expression in the material life as much as in the spirit life within. These two lives are to be unified into one life…by our philosophy of living such a dual natured life.
So, I would disagree that God is the foundation for philosophy except that God is the foundation of everything that exists – spirit, morontial, physical/material. It is the personal unification of all levels of creation and living that is the foundation of philosophy I think.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Mark – I was posting at the same time. I think the material is “real” enough but do agree with your statements: “Note the words “better understanding”. Of what? The answer is: What is real.”
Philosophy, at its best, unifies all of reality, and at its worst focuses on only one level of reality. The ascending tad poles are blessed by the fullest experience of every level of reality but we often tend to live one dimensional lives because we do not know of or believe in the fact that all reality is real…every level of reality relates to and is connected to all other levels of reality. God the Supreme is the experiential expression of the free will minds in time and space and the material/morontial creations and beings of time and space are the expressions of the Creator Sons. All of creation is “real” – none more real I do not think than others….except, of course, for the First Source and Center or the Creator of All Reality from whom and by whom all things and beings originate.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Good Bradly.
A word search on “reality” yields 629 hits. This would suggest the revelators hold this as a high priority for Urantians!
And now we get to the importance of epochal revelation….a picture of reality and the connections between the various levels and aspects of reality. The philosopher without such a fact book presenting such an articulation of universe realities is a one eyed person who sees the fact of the dual nature itself but not the connectedness of the extremes….the dual nature appears to be one extreme or the other; we cannot harmonize that which is unknown to us.
Study of the UB should eventuate into a harmonious appreciation for every level of universe reality forming a symmetry of perspective for unifying our lives into meaningful choices that bind our life into an expression of our potential because we choose and act within this factual reality as presented in the UB. This certainly doesn’t make each life the same just because we share the same facts of reality – our life is the result of personal choice amongst an endless stream of intersections of events, circumstances, situations….and personalities so a guiding philosophy with agreed upon facts does not result in any diminishment of personalized and experiential expressions of the ascenders.
But how much planetary progress may come, over time, by more and more of us sharing a reality perspective based on fact rather than theory and/or ignorance?
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
From the SURF perpetual calendar for February 9 date is this:
“Man’s wisdom grows out of the trials and errors of human experience…..” (page 58.02) Paper 4:3.4)
May we say philosophy is gathering wisdom? 
Philosophy, at its best, unifies all of reality, and at its worst focuses on only one level of reality.
I don’t think that philosophy actually unifies all of reality. Personality is the unifier, not philosophy. Philosophy is a mental construct used by the personality to unify experience. Philosophy coordinates and integrates the meaning of reality at the level, or circle, of the personality’s psychic functioning. Philosophy is a mental phenomenon, it’s a way of organizing thought in relationship to the personality’s experience on different levels of reality, it’s a way to give experience meaning within the arena of mind. That is why it is tied to wisdom.
Philosophy is the search for wisdom which is the goal of human intellectual performance. Philosophy is concerned with mindal gravity; science is concerned with physical gravity; religion is concerned with spiritual gravity; personality is concerned with personality gravity. Philosophy coordinates, integrates and balances experience with science (material) and religion (spiritual) within the mind, then personality unifies it. Personality chooses how it wants to unify its experience, what gravity it would like to pull it . . . . more toward material, or more toward spiritual . . . . and those decisions move it along the psychic circles. Does that make sense?
Thank you Bonita…what a treat and blessing to have you share your insight, scholarship, and experience with us here.
Well said….yes…personality! I agree that our philosophy is not the unifier but is more the coordinator of data/knowledge and an integrator of meanings as discerned in the moment of our current understanding of reality which is the aggregation of knowledge + experiences – that integrated-aggregate being or becoming wisdom. Thus, the philosophy of living leads to our motivation for living and becoming more than we are right now, and it guides our intentions at every intersection of circumstance, situation and relationship, and it comes to easily and naturally almost pre-determine the why of all choices made – the response mechanism or our ability to respond to anything and everything, based upon the philosophy of living, rather than some mechanical reaction to stimuli.
Philosophy becomes an instrument of navigation I think – it helps us know where we are relative to where we’ve been and where we are going, regardless of current location – cloudless skies or raging seas in the day to day. Or, as you say Sister, it leans us towards the gravity circuits in response to our will.
I think this is why we have such unique experiences and outcomes, even when we share the same universe reality knowledge – it is simply an expression of personality!
112:0.12 (1225.12) 10. Personality is unique, absolutely unique: It is unique in time and space; it is unique in eternity and on Paradise; it is unique when bestowed — there are no duplicates; it is unique during every moment of existence; it is unique in relation to God — he is no respecter of persons, but neither does he add them together, for they are nonaddable — they are associable but nontotalable.
112:1.13 (1227.3) Life is really a process which takes place between the organism (selfhood) and its environment. The personality imparts value of identity and meanings of continuity to this organismal-environmental association. Thus it will be recognized that the phenomenon of stimulus-response is not a mere mechanical process since the personality functions as a factor in the total situation. It is ever true that mechanisms are innately passive; organisms, inherently active.
112:1.14 (1227.4) Physical life is a process taking place not so much within the organism as between the organism and the environment. And every such process tends to create and establish organismal patterns of reaction to such an environment. And all such directive patterns are highly influential in goal choosing.
112:1.15 (1227.5) It is through the mediation of mind that the self and the environment establish meaningful contact. The ability and willingness of the organism to make such significant contacts with environment (response to a drive) represents the attitude of the whole personality.
112:1.18 (1227.8) In the human organism the summation of its parts constitutes selfhood — individuality — but such a process has nothing whatever to do with personality, which is the unifier of all these factors as related to cosmic realities.
112:1.19 (1227.9) In aggregations parts are added; in systems parts are arranged. Systems are significant because of organization — positional values. In a good system all factors are in cosmic position. In a bad system something is either missing or displaced — deranged. In the human system it is the personality which unifies all activities and in turn imparts the qualities of identity and creativity.
112:2.15 (1229.2) The purpose of cosmic evolution is to achieve unity of personality through increasing spirit dominance, volitional response to the teaching and leading of the Thought Adjuster. Personality, both human and superhuman, is characterized by an inherent cosmic quality which may be called “the evolution of dominance,” the expansion of the control of both itself and its environment.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Well at least Rene’s philosophy accomplishes something within itself. Just doubt yourself and you learn something. How easy is that?
certainly it must be a serious inquiry but it stands above the all talk no action stuff that abounds.
but my philosophy background is just about nonexistent.
but in the end, no matter what philosophy we get into we got to ask ourselves what we did with it. Otherwise it’s just a mental exercise.
Kind of analogous to simply believing as opposed to complete dedication to doing fathers will? One can get to mansonia rather quickly as opposed to maybe sleeping for a melennia or two?
