249 posts · 14 participants · started Jan 13, 2016, 1:00 PM
…Thus philosophy may be experiencible as different phenomena, depending on circle progress?
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…But Rodan articulates what can happen when a soul is touched by truth: we can dare to launch, and find there is wind beneath our wings.
Excellent points well stated, Nigel! 
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Richard E Warren
Gene wrote: We are told that we must discover what is value and what has value. What would you say about philosophy? Is it or does it have? with a broad stroke of the pen I’d say that God is value and everything else has value. but there must be lots of stuff inbetween that we can philosophize about, no?
Yes, I brought this up a few pages back. We discussed the quote in question (100:3.3-7) on this forum last year, I think. At the time I wasn’t really sure how to interpret it, and I’ve been thinking about it ever since. My current thinking tells me that “that which IS value” has to do with relationships, either with God or with other personalities. What IS value is alive, changing and growing. “That which HAS value” is inert; it’s about things, facts, knowledge, stuff that is not alive yet more or less peripheral to and associated with personality relations. (There are a lot of people in this world who think things are more valuable than people, that the pleasure gained from the physical level of things, facts and knowledge is just as important as the pleasure gained from interpersonal relationships. )
But, the quote implies that things, facts and knowledge do have value, but the value they HAVE is only in relationship to personality. These “things” have to become integrated by personality and given meaning before they actually have any value, and their only value is within the relationship, that which IS value. Values always depend on relationships. Meanings are possessed by the individual, but values are shared. At least that’s they way I’m thinking about it today.
So then, my next question would be, what does this have to do with philosophy? Philosophy is the search for wisdom. Wisdom is the consciousness of the meaning of personality in all its relations with both things and other personalities (human and divine). Wisdom elevates experience with things, facts and knowledge to new levels of meaning as they become part of the relational experience of a given personality. That is, if it is the result of the spirit of wisdom doing the work within the mind of that personality.
36:5.12 7. The spirit of wisdom – the inherent tendency of all moral creatures towards orderly and progressive evolutionary advancement. This is the highest of the adjutants, the spirit co-ordinator and articulator of the work of all the others. This spirit is the secret of that inborn urge of mind creatures which initiates and maintains the practical and effective program of the ascending scale of existence; that gift of living things which accounts for their inexplicable ability to survive and, in survival, to utilize the co-ordination of all their past experience and present opportunities for the acquisition of all of everything that all of the other six mental ministers can mobilize in the mind of the organism concerned. Wisdom is the acme of intellectual performance. Wisdom is the goal of a purely mental and moral existence.
The spirit of wisdom is a wonderful mind ministry. I wrote a book on the Holy Spirit a while back which explains how the two work so sublimely together to elevate personality experience to the soul where meanings and values are sorted out, interpreted, spiritized and made actionable. I think true philosophy, a philosophy of living that discovers the type of wisdom which best correlates quantity and quality must utilize the spirit of wisdom as a gateway to spiritual insight and the soul’s powers of discrimination. Quantity would be “that which HAS value”, quality would be “that which IS value”. The best philosophy is one that discovers and recognizes this gateway to the soul where meanings can be interpreted and true values illuminated within the relationship between God and man then applied as fruits of the spirit to the life of that personality, where God and man can become one.
Anyway, I blabber on. Probably this needs editing too, in order to make it more understandable, if it is understandable at all. It’s a great topic to contemplate . . . many, many layers of thought to go through.
Wow, ask and receive.
wonderful insights, thank you so much.
likely not the appropriate place to ask but I’d love to read your book Bonita.
Gene wrote: . . . but I’d love to read your book Bonita.
Oh jeez . . . I don’t think that’s possible. I self-published only one copy and then deep-sixed the manuscript. I could never find an editor or proof-reader with any interest in the subject. It was written for TUB readers, so a very limited audience . . . very limited since most of them have less than favorable opinions about my ideas. I actually lost interest in the whole thing long ago, but I did learn a lot while writing it which I try to share here and there, for what it’s worth. It was fun, but it was basically an exercise in futility. Sorry.
Well, you wrote it and share. Not thing futile about that.
Aristotle is perhaps the most well known of all philosophers in the West, alongside Confucius in the East.
A reviewer of classical philosopher Werner Jaeger blogged this about Aristotle:
…Aristotle knew that logic and science “can never attain to that irresistible force of inner conviction which arises from the inspired presentiments of the soul.” Jaeger writes that Aristotle “spoke more beautifully and more profoundly about the personal and emotional side of all religious life” than anyone else in the ancient world.
“Aristotle derives the subjective conviction of God’s existence from two sources: from man’s experience of the inspired might of the soul … and from the sight of the starry heavens,” observes Jaeger.
Also writing on the subject of Aristotle’s religious convictions, Anton-Hermann Chroust says that for Aristotle “man’s belief in God and in God’s existence arises primarily from an innate spiritual and affirmative strength which in its spontaneous manifestations—in its complete independence from physical or psycho-physical factors—generates in man a spontaneous, free and joyous realization that there exists, and must exist, an invisible intelligent and omniscient Being that knows everything to perfection.”
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Appears Aristotle understood a great deal for a man of 24 centuries ago. His name appears once in the UB:
…Xenophanes taught one God, but his deity concept was too pantheistic to be a personal Father to mortal man. Anaxagoras was a mechanist except that he did recognize a First Cause, an Initial Mind. Socrates and his successors, Plato and Aristotle, taught that virtue is knowledge; goodness, health of the soul; that it is better to suffer injustice than to be guilty of it, that it is wrong to return evil for evil, and that the gods are wise and good. Their cardinal virtues were: wisdom, courage, temperance, and justice…. (1079.3) 98:2.6
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Richard E Warren
Is this person a thinking philosopher, Rick?
Note her rationale.
Is this person a thinking philosopher, Rick?
Note her rationale.
Seems like a classic struggle between logic and intuition, Mark. What was your take? She might well like the UB!
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Richard E Warren
She’s convinced she’s wired to God. Its interesting she ran to Pew and other places for research and to Paschal for answers. At the end she admits she’s stuck between being a nonbeliever atheist and knowing she’s linked to God. I think she is looking for truth, beauty and goodness. She is attempting to reconcile her thoughts and conclusions; she’s “philosophying”, but is not happy with her philosophy of life.
Note this from the writer’s website: “Elizabeth received her Bachelor’s degree in Philosophy in 2011 from DePaul University,…….”
This gives us evidence to promote the struggle as good for helping people see.
She’s convinced she’s wired to God. Its interesting she ran to Pew and other places for research and to Paschal for answers. At the end she admits she’s stuck between being a nonbeliever atheist and knowing she’s linked to God. I think she is looking for truth, beauty and goodness. She is attempting to reconcile her thoughts and conclusions; she’s “philosophying”, but is not happy with her philosophy of life. Note this from the writer’s website: “Elizabeth received her Bachelor’s degree in Philosophy in 2011 from DePaul University,…….” This gives us evidence to promote the struggle as good for helping people see.
It hasn’t been so long since I was in her place (28 years), not finding satisfying answers, trapped in an awful and intractable ignorance. It’s really tough embracing evolved philosophy that is so fraught with human errors, misleading signposts, crippling ignorance, even Godlessness. God is obvious to most people, even if their skepticism and logic ask: Where’s the proof?
Most everyone, in their heart, knows the universe did not simply fall together. That fact nags at atheism, along with the existence of consciousness. Indicators of intelligent design are everywhere, beginning with these bodies and personalities we somehow came to inhabit.
There was a comment section. I posted this:
Elizabeth, if you’re still hungry for truth, you might have a look at The Urantia Book. I was in much the same situation as you before finding this truly exceptional tome. As a writer you will surely be amazed at the quality of the text, much better than I’ve read anywhere. The first 70 pages are a revelation of the reality, nature and character of God. The authority and clarity with which the authors speak is fascinating, and convincing. Ck it out, what’s to lose? http://www.urantia.org
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Richard E Warren
Rick and all,
The comments received at the Post regarding the article seems to prove for me the values found in TUB. The meanness is rampant on newspaper and many other chat forums and this fact convinces me people have not developed a valuing philosophy that would transcend personal selfishness, psychological imbalance or neuroses. I do agree there is need to redefine philosophy so that there is satisfying adventure in truth seeking and for recognizing goodness. Its all been said here on this topic.
Your posts were courageous given the hostility found there. Very admirable of you; keep up the faith for whats right.
The UB authors surely see the depth of our problems and they included discussion to help us to think about what is good about philosophy for divine idealist living.
Rick and all, The comments received at the Post regarding the article seems to prove for me the values found in TUB. The meanness is rampant on newspaper and many other chat forums and this fact convinces me people have not developed a valuing philosophy that would transcend personal selfishness, psychological imbalance or neuroses. I do agree there is need to redefine philosophy so that there is satisfying adventure in truth seeking and for recognizing goodness. Its all been said here on this topic. Your posts were courageous given the hostility found there. Very admirable of you; keep up the faith for whats right. The UB authors surely see the depth of our problems and they included discussion to help us to think about what is good about philosophy for divine idealist living.
Thanks so much for the comments and encouragement Mark,
It’s a whole different thing mixing it up with disbelief out in the secular world, isn’t it?! But it is an exhilarating challenge. I liked what you wrote too. Maybe she read one or both of our replies.
Yes, good point, the authors gave us a great deal to think about philosophically, idealistically, spiritually speaking. Even SUPERPHILOSOPHY, which Melchizedek mentioned twice:
…Thus it may be seen that religious longings and spiritual urges are not of such a nature as would merely lead men to want to believe in God, but rather are they of such nature and power that men are profoundly impressed with the conviction that they ought to believe in God. The sense of evolutionary duty and the obligations consequent upon the illumination of revelation make such a profound impression upon man’s moral nature that he finally reaches that position of mind and that attitude of soul where he concludes that he has no right not to believe in God. The higher and superphilosophic wisdom of such enlightened and disciplined individuals ultimately instructs them that to doubt God or distrust his goodness would be to prove untrue to the realest and deepest thing within the human mind and soul — the divine Adjuster…. 101:1:7
Religious speculation is inevitable but always detrimental; speculation invariably falsifies its object. Speculation tends to translate religion into something material or humanistic, and thus, while directly interfering with the clarity of logical thought, it indirectly causes religion to appear as a function of the temporal world, the very world with which it should everlastingly stand in contrast. Therefore will religion always be characterized by paradoxes, the paradoxes resulting from the absence of the experiential connection between the material and the spiritual levels of the universe — morontia mota, the superphilosophic sensitivity for truth discernment and unity perception…. 102:3:2
How might we introduce Super Philosophy to skeptical world? Don a cape? Mota on?!
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Richard E Warren
I like to think that this is the more important part of quote 101:1.7: ” . . . make such a profound impression upon man’s moral nature that he finally reaches that position of mind and that attitude of soul where he concludes that he has no right not to believe in God.”
Getting a person to that position of mind and attitude of soul is the goal. You can’t tell people what to think or how to think, you can only show them, and to show them you have to have arrived there yourself and be willing to share yourself with them, socialize your personality.
How many people even realize that their soul has an attitude? Heck, how many even know they have a soul? How many people realize that they can reposition their mind? How many people accept the fact that they have access to the mind that was in Jesus?
I think that first you have to show them that your own soul is empowered by the four faith attitudes and that your own mind is repositioned to accept the mind that was in Jesus. People imitate what they like. It will eventually rub off onto others. but only if it’s gracious and fragrant, which it can’t help but be.
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I like to think that this is the more important part of quote 101:1.7: ” . . . make such a profound impression upon man’s moral nature that he finally reaches that position of mind and that attitude of soul where he concludes that he has no right not to believe in God.” Getting a person to that position of mind and attitude of soul is the goal. You can’t tell people what to think or how to think, you can only show them, and to show them you have to have arrived there yourself and be willing to share yourself with them, socialize your personality. How many people even realize that their soul has an attitude? Heck, how many even know they have a soul? How many people realize that they can reposition their mind? How many people accept the fact that they have access to the mind that was in Jesus? I think that first you have to show them that your own soul is empowered by the four faith attitudes and that your own mind is repositioned to accept the mind that was in Jesus. People imitate what they like. It will eventually rub off onto others. but only if it’s gracious and fragrant, which it can’t help but be.
Sounds right, Bonita,
The soul’s attitude is well worth considering here, especially since the soul’s substance is divine values; truth, beauty, goodness, the cornerstones of cosmic philosophy and the maximum expression of perfected spiritual values.
At one time, on the old Forum, we discussed how much influence the soul actually has, if any. I was surprised to find several more quotes suggesting the soul has influence, even will!
…But these temporal conditions do not inhibit inner spiritual progress by a soul dedicated to the doing of the will of the Father in heaven. There are present in all normal mortals certain innate drives toward growth and self-realization which function if they are not specifically inhibited. The certain technique of fostering this constitutive endowment of the potential of spiritual growth is to maintain an attitude of wholehearted devotion to supreme values.
Richard E Warren
Righto Rick! You know my favorite topic is the soul, which is why I wrote that book on the Holy Spirit, the supermind of the soul. I could talk for days and days about the soul. I spent years pulling every quote with the word “soul” in it, thinking, organizing, correlating, asking questions and praying on the meaning of it all. I have a whole notebook full of ideas to share on the subject.
Yes, the soul has powers. It has a life of its own. It grows in and of itself, which makes it really hard to kill it off, yet some folks manage to do it somehow. The soul can think; it is minded by the Holy Spirit. The soul has its own attitudes. But souls are not born perfect, they must grow towards perfection by constantly striving for it.
And in terms of TBG, those values are multidimensional, meaning they exist on multiple levels of reality and must be rediscovered and reinterpreted on every level of soul growth (the function of the Spirit of Truth). TBG are not static. Values are relative in that they only have the meaning they gain through the soul’s experience with them. Opening up the mind to get to the soul is my life’s work. But I rarely make much progress being understood by other UB’ers on that topic. It’s distressing that so few have interest in their own souls. Anyway, I’ll shut up now.
…Anyway, I’ll shut up now.
No, please, say on!! Especially as soul relates to living philosophy.
Richard E Warren
No, please, say on!! Especially as soul relates to living philosophy.
Have you ever taken the time to ponder just what they mean when they say: living truth, living God, living faith, living spiritual connection, living love, new and living way, living spiritual experience, living presence, living philosophy?
The key word is “living”, obviously. And who gives life? The Creative Spirit, our Mother Spirit, the Holy Spirit of our souls. The body lives but the soul is living. All that is truly living happens at the soul level.
This is why I had a cow when Nigel called the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Fact. Facts are dead things. But that’s another beast altogether. I don’t want to go down that road again. I’m too old to have cows.
Well I can honestly say that I feel that I have come to the realization that I have no right not to believe in God.
but how I got there was a process, can’t say one person or clever or profound set of words made it happen.
If fact if asked I probably could not give but only memorable highlights of a continuing process
revealed religion has a way of creeping into us with or without the Urantia book. Some of us are religious but won’t admit it or recognize it.
Gene wrote: If fact if asked I probably could not give but only memorable highlights of a continuing process
That’s the way it works Gene. Growth is unconscious. What you are describing is a living process. Life doesn’t happen in little factual fragments that can be analyzed, one experiences life as a whole, and the “highlights” are the little glimpses of reality that come when we are properly attuned to reality. All we can hope for is an occasional glimpse at the true, beautiful and good nature of God and his universe (reality). And it is paramount that we not allow ourselves to become blinded by them and go off half-cocked and crazy. Some do.
103:0.1 The Thought Adjuster is the cosmic window through which the finite creature may faith-glimpse the certainties and divinities of limitless Deity, the Universal Father.
The memories of those glimpses are priceless. These are the memories with staying power, the ones shared by the Adjuster and carried through eternity as part of your soul’s dowry, the good, true and beautiful friendship between God and man.
160:4.12 Train your memory to hold in sacred trust the strength-giving and worth-while episodes of life, which you can recall at will for your pleasure and edification. Thus build up for yourself and in yourself reserve galleries of beauty, goodness, and artistic grandeur. But the noblest of all memories are the treasured recollections of the great moments of a superb friendship. And all of these memory treasures radiate their most precious and exalting influences under the releasing touch of spiritual worship.
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…build up for yourself and in yourself reserve galleries of beauty, goodness, and artistic grandeur…. 160:4.12
Pure Philosophic Poetry! As was your post.
Been thinking about evolved philosophy, it has a long history on Urantia, Rene Descartes was one of its luminaries. Compare this about a man of 1600 AD and the Urantia Book:
…Descartes also saw very clearly that all truths were linked with one another, so that finding a fundamental truth and proceeding with logic would open the way to all science. This basic truth, Descartes found quite soon: his famous “I think therefore I am“.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes
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Some modern wisdom: Gene wrote: “…revealed religion has a way of creeping into us with or without the Urantia book. Some of us are religious but won’t admit it or recognize it.”
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Richard E Warren
