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Calling All Philosophers

249 posts · 14 participants · started Jan 13, 2016, 1:00 PM

  1. “Not entirely” we agree on. The potentials for all arenas of thought and experience (including philosophy) are increased with better DNA, or they wouldn’t bother sending Adam and Eves. Why is it the three brained have a spiritual advantage of two brainers? Better capacity.

    But we already have all the DNA uplifting we’re going to get.  According to your theory, we have a bleak chance of developing a higher philosophy of living from where we are now.  It also gives the weak-willed an excuse to stop trying.  It’s easy to say, “Hey, I only have two lobes in this head and less than 1% Adamic DNA, so don’t expect a lot from me. Who do you think I am anyway, Jesus?”   I think your theory could actually do harm.

    The celestials do say that they are trying to foster the “higher spiritual types” on this planet (110:4.6).  They can’t create them, but they can foster them.  The angels are responsible for inspiring us to pray (113:4.4), and prayer is the best way to increase capacity for receptivity (144:4.2; 146:2.14; 168:4.6; 194:3.20).  We also know that we can always pray for the mind of Jesus to live in us (48:6.26;102:4.1).  I think this gift of his, the Spirit of Truth, can compensate for problems with DNA, brain size and education.  If that were not true, then we would not have advanced far enough to warrant another Revelation.  We’d still be sacrificing animals.

    Also, when they’re talking about increasing capacity for receptivity, they’re talking about the soul intellect, not the material mind intellect.  The soul is a morontia phenomenon, and although it is dependent upon the material mind for continued growth, all it really needs is its willingness.  The soul is not dependent upon IQ, or mental culture; it will grow as long as there are moral choices to be made.  As long as the brain is developed enough to make contact with the last two adjutants and enter the seventh psychic circle, it is developed enough for soul growth. (I still can’t underline with consistency, look at the 3rd sentence in 5:5.13.)

    p69:8 5:5.13 Eternal survival of personality is wholly dependent on the choosing of the mortal mind, whose decisions determine the survival potential of the immortal soul. When the mind believes God and the soul knows God, and when, with the fostering Adjuster, they all desire God, then is survival assured. Limitations of intellect, curtailment of education, deprivation of culture, impoverishment of social status, even inferiority of the human standards of morality resulting from the unfortunate lack of educational, cultural, and social advantages, cannot invalidate the presence of the divine spirit in such unfortunate and humanly handicapped but believing individuals. The indwelling of the Mystery Monitor constitutes the inception and insures the possibility of the potential of growth and survival of the immortal soul.

    I think the highest philosophy is dependent more on soul growth than on a high percentage of Adamic DNA or a couple of Phd.’s.  I mean, the values of TBG are found in the soul; TBG are the highest comprehensible elements of divinity and revelations of the nature of God we are capable of; and all are found in the soul.  Not only are they discovered there, but they are also recognized and interpreted, (given meaning) there.  So, I believe that soul intelligence is more important that material intelligence when it comes to the development of a noble character.   DNA and education are about the material intellect, not the soul intellect.

  2. To the discussion I’d like to add that one’s capacity for spiritual development can be increased in direct proportion to the elimination of the selfish qualities of love.  Usefulness to one’s fellow beings is the measure and indicator of one’s spirituality and nearness to God.  Such nearness to God, spirituality, enhances TB&G to the extent, depth and breadth the individual person is able to or is willing to discover or recognize it.  Evolutionary religions are mind-derivative.  Revealed religion expands evolutionary religion and confirms to the heart and soul of the individual person that God is both within and also out there in the vast cosmos.
    .
    100:2:4  Spirituality becomes at once the indicator of one’s nearness to God and the measure of one’s usefulness to fellow beings. Spirituality enhances the ability to discover beauty in things, recognize truth in meanings, and discover goodness in values. Spiritual development is determined by capacity therefor and is directly proportional to the elimination of the selfish qualities of love.
    .
    100:3:4  […] Values are experiential when realities are meaningful and mentally associated, when such relationships are recognized and appreciated by mind.
    .
    Religion is concerned only with values – the faith experience.  Science with facts – the domain of knowledge. And as I see it, one’s philosophy is the arena where the person searches for meaning in bringing a unity to one’s understanding of the facts of science with one’s faith-experience.
    101:5:2  Science deals with facts; religion is concerned only with values. Through enlightened philosophy the mind endeavors to unite the meanings of both facts and values, thereby arriving at a concept of complete reality. Remember that science is the domain of knowledge, philosophy the realm of wisdom, and religion the sphere of the faith experience. But religion, nonetheless, presents two phases of manifestation:
    .
     1. Evolutionary religion. The experience of primitive worship, the religion which is a mind derivative.
     2. Revealed religion. The universe attitude which is a spirit derivative; the assurance of, and belief in, the conservation of eternal realities, the survival of personality, and the eventual attainment of the cosmic Deity, whose purpose has made all this possible. It is a part of the plan of the universe that, sooner or later, evolutionary religion is destined to receive the spiritual expansion of revelation.
  3. This discussion has been a veritable feast for me! Thank you….all of you….for your well-considered and thought-provoking comments, all made in a spirit of unity and good will. I so much admire your collective knowledge and understanding of this truly amazing revelation. Love to all.

  4. Yes.  Mind is a wonderful thing to use!

  5. Paper 101.1.1

    true religion is not a system of philosophic belief which can be reasoned out and substantiated by natural proofs, etc…

    doesnt soul growth imply religious experience?

    and it goes on to say that : the divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking.

    im thinking that the most impressive or effective philosophy is more of a path to social skills or civilization progress, that is if you do something with it. Soul growth – I don’t know. Philosophy is not really the highest and most spiritualized type of thinking is it?

    I just did a word search and there are three uses of the word ” super philosophic”

    too late tonight but I’ll read up on that tomorrow

  6. But we already have all the DNA uplifting we’re going to get.

    Really? Won’t all things be restored that should be, when the rebellion and quarantine are over?

    According to your theory, we have a bleak chance of developing a higher philosophy of living from where we are now.

    Bleak? No, just more difficult than if the rebellion hadn’t happened.

    It also gives the weak-willed an excuse to stop trying. It’s easy to say, “Hey, I only have two lobes in this head and less than 1% Adamic DNA, so don’t expect a lot from me. Who do you think I am anyway, Jesus?”

    That didn’t happen for you, me and others. Don’t the truly hungry always get fed?

    I think your theory could actually do harm.

    Hopefully it will engender more interest, bring out more thoughtful reflection, elicit more questions and ideas, like yours.

    …I think this gift of his, the Spirit of Truth, can compensate for problems with DNA, brain size and education. If that were not true, then we would not have advanced far enough to warrant another Revelation. We’d still be sacrificing animals. Also, when they’re talking about increasing capacity for receptivity, they’re talking about the soul intellect, not the material mind intellect. The soul is a morontia phenomenon, and although it is dependent upon the material mind for continued growth, all it really needs is its willingness. The soul is not dependent upon IQ, or mental culture; it will grow as long as there are moral choices to be made. As long as the brain is developed enough to make contact with the last two adjutants and enter the seventh psychic circle, it is developed enough for soul growth. (I still can’t underline with consistency, look at the 3rd sentence in 5:5.13.)

    p69:8 5:5.13 Eternal survival of personality is wholly dependent on the choosing of the mortal mind, whose decisions determine the survival potential of the immortal soul. When the mind believes God and the soul knows God, and when, with the fostering Adjuster, they all desire God, then is survival assured. Limitations of intellect, curtailment of education, deprivation of culture, impoverishment of social status, even inferiority of the human standards of morality resulting from the unfortunate lack of educational, cultural, and social advantages, cannot invalidate the presence of the divine spirit in such unfortunate and humanly handicapped but believing individuals. The indwelling of the Mystery Monitor constitutes the inception and insures the possibility of the potential of growth and survival of the immortal soul.

    I think the highest philosophy is dependent more on soul growth than on a high percentage of Adamic DNA or a couple of Phd.’s. I mean, the values of TBG are found in the soul; TBG are the highest comprehensible elements of divinity and revelations of the nature of God we are capable of; and all are found in the soul. Not only are they discovered there, but they are also recognized and interpreted, (given meaning) there. So, I believe that soul intelligence is more important that material intelligence when it comes to the development of a noble character. DNA and education are about the material intellect, not the soul intellect.

    …Good points all, but still, our overseers would not try to upgrade physical and intellectual abilities and capacities if there were no advantage. The Adjuster, the Spirit of Truth, our DNA, our angels, all conspire to bring the spirit fruits out of the individual and group. On that we might agree?

    Richard E Warren

  7. To the discussion I’d like to add that one’s capacity for spiritual development can be increased in direct proportion to the elimination of the selfish qualities of love. Usefulness to one’s fellow beings is the measure and indicator of one’s spirituality and nearness to God. Such nearness to God, spirituality, enhances TB&G to the extent, depth and breadth the individual person is able to or is willing to discover or recognize it. Evolutionary religions are mind-derivative. Revealed religion expands evolutionary religion and confirms to the heart and soul of the individual person that God is both within and also out there in the vast cosmos.

    Beautifully expressed, Mara. And since we have revelation, we do have mota (in a limited sense), for enhancing the understanding and inculcation of divine values, even here on Urantia, in the flesh. And we certainly are capable of developing our love past selfishness, if sufficiently educated and motivated.

    Richard E Warren

  8. This discussion has been a veritable feast for me! Thank you….all of you….for your well-considered and thought-provoking comments, all made in a spirit of unity and good will. I so much admire your collective knowledge and understanding of this truly amazing revelation. Love to all.

    Thanks for chiming in, Julian,

    Very happy to hear you like the menu. Add a dish if you like.

    Much love to you and yours.

    Richard E Warren

  9. Yes. Mind is a wonderful thing to use!

    A good philosophical launching point at least. :D

    Richard E Warren

  10. Paper 101.1.1

    true religion is not a system of philosophic belief which can be reasoned out and substantiated by natural proofs, etc…

    doesnt soul growth imply religious experience?

    and it goes on to say that : the divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking.

    im thinking that the most impressive or effective philosophy is more of a path to social skills or civilization progress, that is if you do something with it. Soul growth – I don’t know. Philosophy is not really the highest and most spiritualized type of thinking is it?

    I just did a word search and there are three uses of the word ” super philosophic”

    too late tonight but I’ll read up on that tomorrow

     

    Some worthy points you make, Gene. And super philosophy would be an excellent tangent to explore within this thread. Thanks!

    .

    Richard E Warren

  11. . Moderator, please delete.

    Richard E Warren

  12. Gene wrote: … doesnt soul growth imply religious experience?
    Okay, my formatting experience on this forum has just gotten exponentially worse making it almost impossible to respond with any delicacy. So I’m left with the challenge of being as succinct as possible.  Suffice it to say that religious experience occurs whenever an individual chooses to do an unselfish act despite the urge to be selfish.  You can’t have a religious experience without a relationship between two persons, human or divine. Soul growth is dependent upon mental expansion, in other words, increased ability to discover, recognize, interpret and choose the will of God, then act it out within the material life of the individual.  Philosophy is the bridge between the outside and the inside world.
    Gene wrote:  and it goes on to say that : the divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking. . . . Soul growth – I don’t know. Philosophy is not really the highest and most spiritualized type of thinking is it?
    I’m guessing you’re wondering what spiritualized thinking has to do with philosophy.  Spiritualized thinking is the type of thinking that has risen to the level of the soul; it’s super-thinking.  First, we begin by organizing facts (science) about the physical world experience into idea-decisions with our material minds.  Then, philosophy, aka wisdom, transforms these idea-decisions into practical and supernal ideals.  Once philosophy has done its job, with help from the spirit of wisdom, these ideals rise to the level of the soul with help from the Holy Spirit, the supermind of the soul. Here the Adjuster combines and spiritizes them and makes them ready for action, with the help of the Spirit of Truth.  You can read all about it at p 1112:3, 101:6.7.

    Gene wrote:  im thinking that the most impressive or effective philosophy is more of a path to social skills or civilization progress, that is if you do something with it.

    Yes, and the progress of civilization is entirely dependent upon the inner life where supernal ideals have been spiritized and then acted out according to the guidance of the Spirit of Truth who directs the loving relationships between all persons and things.

    111:4.3 The advances of true civilization are all born in this inner world of mankind. It is only the inner life that is truly creative.
    Philosophy is responsible for bringing material thought and spiritual thought together in such a way as to make it useful.  The soul follows the Spirit of Truth but the material mind follows wisdom, or its highest philosophy.  The soul cannot function on the material world, but it can influence material thinking if the material mind is seeking its influence.  Philosophy is that middle ground where the two must adjust, adapt and apply.  We are forced to live this dual life, but we are not without the means to do it on the highest level possible, ever progressing and evolving towards perfection.
  13. Really? Won’t all things be restored that should be, when the rebellion and quarantine are over?

    Do you really believe this?  I’ve never heard of such a thing.  Biologic evolution is not under a quarantine, as far as I know. Biologic evolution of DNA continued unabated after the rebellion, and when it reached its peak, we qualified for a Material Son and Daughter.  I can’t recall ever reading anything about our DNA going through any sudden changes after the quarantine is over.  I think we are told that an attempt to upstep the races at this point in time would result in disaster.

    64:6.32   Stronger and better races are to be had from the interbreeding of diverse peoples when these different races are carriers of superior inheritance factors. And the Urantia races would have benefited by such an early amalgamation provided such a conjoint people could have been subsequently effectively upstepped by a thoroughgoing admixture with the superior Adamic stock. The attempt to execute such an experiment on Urantia under present racial conditions would be highly disastrous.

    I’m pretty sure the quarantine is only spiritual in nature.  But it has no effect on us at all due to the presence of the Spirit of Truth and the Adjusters.  In fact, I’m pretty sure that even our biologic problems can now be overcome if we would allow ourselves to be guided by the Spirit of Truth.

    114:5.4 Planetary isolation is, of course, of little concern to individual mortals since the pouring out of the Spirit of Truth upon all flesh nineteen hundred years ago.

  14. Got to admit I’m humbled by responses.

    have always considered philosophy as all talk and no action. Books on the subject just put me to sleep.

    new perspectives are encouraging and motivating.

    thank you.

  15. Really? Won’t all things be restored that should be, when the rebellion and quarantine are over?

    Bonita wrote:

    Do you really believe this?…

    I do. But it may take until light and life’s dawn, or beyond. All things that God intended for Urantia will be brought to fruition, no? The route might be circuitous owing to evil outbreaks, but in time all will be as it should, I predict.

    Bonita wrote:

    …I can’t recall ever reading anything about our DNA going through any sudden changes after the quarantine is over.

    No, not sudden I think, given our Father’s overarching penchant for gradual evolution.

    Bonita wrote:

    I think we are told that an attempt to upstep the races at this point in time would result in disaster.

    Agree, but in ages to come, in light and life, over great stretches of time (and who knows what sort or how many descending sons and daughters will arrive on Urantia’s shores across time?) I believe we will receive all that is ours.

    Bonita wrote:

    I’m pretty sure the quarantine is only spiritual in nature. But it has no effect on us at all due to the presence of the Spirit of Truth and the Adjusters. In fact, I’m pretty sure that even our biologic problems can now be overcome if we would allow ourselves to be guided by the Spirit of Truth.

    Again agree, but even greater problems can be faced and overcome when we have evolved and been upstepped as we should have been by Adam and Eve, when Urantia regains its orientation toward Paradise with all necessary tools and experience, and begins its climb up the cosmic scale to the heights of light and life.

    Urantia’s future development is a good topic for discussion, but drifting off the thread’s central subject, my fault.

    Richard E Warren

  16. Got to admit I’m humbled by responses. have always considered philosophy as all talk and no action. Books on the subject just put me to sleep. new perspectives are encouraging and motivating. thank you.

    Thank YOU! That’s just what philosophy needs, a new image.

    Richard E Warren

  17. Rick Warren wrote: Urantia’s future development is a good topic for discussion, but drifting off the thread’s central subject, my fault.

    Yeah, I agree.  I thought we were talking about the here and now.  Didn’t you originally ask how to cultivate interest in philosophy?  Dreaming about future days hundreds of thousands of years away won’t help us now.  I think the image of philosophers sitting in their comfy chairs dreaming about abstract ideas is what has turned the last few generations to more tangible things like science.  The pendulum has to shift back to deep thinking, but not all the way to daydreaming.  TBG are dreamy topics, lofty goals for sure, but they need to grow roots if anyone is going to get interested in using them to develop a philosophy of living.

    Back on the first generation forum, the forum I was told by the second generation forum’s creator that we ran into the ground (I wish it was back so I could run it further into the ground, it was fun), I had a topic about bringing love to life using a daily exercise of looking for truth, beauty and goodness in everyday encounters then jotting them down for pondering.  I got railroaded and ridiculed back then, but maybe things are different now?  Don’t know . . . but it seems to me that training the mind to habitually look for TBG is not a bad thing. It at least gives you things in the real world to be thankful for every day.

  18. Rick Warren wrote: Urantia’s future development is a good topic for discussion, but drifting off the thread’s central subject, my fault.

    Yeah, I agree. I thought we were talking about the here and now. Didn’t you originally ask how to cultivate interest in philosophy? Dreaming about future days hundreds of thousands of years away won’t help us now. I think the image of philosophers sitting in their comfy chairs dreaming about abstract ideas is what has turned the last few generations to more tangible things like science. The pendulum has to shift back to deep thinking, but not all the way to daydreaming. TBG are dreamy topics, lofty goals for sure, but they need to grow roots if anyone is going to get interested in using them to develop a philosophy of living. Back on the first generation forum, the forum I was told by the second generation forum’s creator that we ran into the ground (I wish it was back so I could run it further into the ground, it was fun), I had a topic about bringing love to life using a daily exercise of looking for truth, beauty and goodness in everyday encounters then jotting them down for pondering. I got railroaded and ridiculed back then, but maybe things are different now? Don’t know . . . but it seems to me that training the mind to habitually look for TBG is not a bad thing. It at least gives you things in the real world to be thankful for every day.

    Yes, well said all. I would only add that Truth, Beauty, and Goodness provide a personal mental framework for (spiritual) values. Today’s world, generally speaking, seems somewhat lost in a sea of criss-crossing values without much direction or harmony. I think of TB&G as philosophy’s anchors sometimes. But philosophy can be instilled without using the word, or the TBG triad. It’s all about values not words, values are the substance God is building the Supreme from, as I understand it.

    Educators, good ones, can make values appealing again, people are designed to crave them, seems like.

    .

    Richard E Warren

  19. It’s all about values not words, values are the substance God is building the Supreme from, as I understand it.

    Yes, and we’re told that we have to learn how to distinguish between what is value and what has value.

    100:3.3 In the contemplation of values you must distinguish between that which is value and that which has value. You must recognize the relation between pleasurable activities and their meaningful integration and enhanced realization on ever progressively higher and higher levels of human experience.

  20. Got to admit I’m humbled by responses. have always considered philosophy as all talk and no action. Books on the subject just put me to sleep. new perspectives are encouraging and motivating. thank you.

     

    Greetings Gene!  Actually philosophy is mostly all action and very little, too little, talk and even less thought.  Every single person has a philosophy of living.  Too many do not think about what their philosophy of living is.  Indeed, we cannot have a philosophy that we do not live…for, like religion, only the living of it is the true expression of either philosophy or religion.  Our philosophy, IMO, is what we live for, why we choose and do what we so choose and do.   It is true that many, perhaps most, people cannot even articulate their philosophy of living….but they’ve got one nonetheless.

    While a good and functional philosophy unites the inner/spiritual world (religious aspect) and material world (the science of the physical realm, including how to exist in the physical systems of the world) – still, we enter every day with some functional or dysfunctional perspective of reality or non-realities that predetermines our motives, intentions, priorities, and choices for the day.  Why do we do what we do?  Why do we choose what we so choose?  There are irrational, unbalanced, and painful philosophies for living as well as thoughtful,  noble, enlightening, and functional philosophies.

    One of the greatest benefits and values to be discovered in the Urantia Papers is that knowledge of facts and truth regarding universe realities and our place in the cosmology of reality which supports a sound philosophy of living.  The eliminations of error and the reduction of confusions allows for this very functional result – a philosophy of living the unites and harmonizes our inner and outer lives into greater meaning and greater progress as we, over time and by experience, learn how to transfer the seat of our very identity.

    Philosophy is not an abstraction nor all that complex really….especially if one knows what’s what and who’s who and has a time unit perspective that sees beyond the material struggles of the day and provides context for perspective.  Philosophy is pretty much our “view” and our “lense” through which we see everything, including ourselves within that everything.

    It’s always been one of my favorite topics….especially once I discovered the UB!

    :good:

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

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