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Calling All Philosophers

249 posts · 14 participants · started Jan 13, 2016, 1:00 PM

BradlyParticipant
Jan 27, 2016, 10:10 PM
A great philosophical question is: Why does God punish us? or: Why does God pour suffering upon us?

A few centuries before Jesus brought the good news of God’s paternal love and mercy, the Eastern philosophers knew that it is free will that delivers both “suffering” and “punishment”. Suffering (mental, emotional, and much material pain/loss, etc.) comes from very bad motives, intentions, priorities, and choices – especially when those are based on what the UB calls mind poisons – fear, anger, impatience, pride, greed, envy, etc. In other words we suffer or benefit from the reciprocity and consequence cycle of cause and effect! Free will causes effects – both good and bad. God only gave us free will…it’s up to us what we do with it….but the effects derived by this profound mechanism and lever of cause are not ours to choose. We only choose the cause of the effects. Want different effects/outcomes? Simple! The effects follow the cause….this ain’t rocket science!

The solution? Love of God and for others. Easy peasy!! Self love causes suffering and brings punishment. Not as personalized by God or the gods or luck. Nope. Without consequences of choice, how then would a free will mind learn to make better choices? Why do the outcomes of love and service work out so well? This is not accidental. The WAY of the universe is loving service one for another. That WAY works. Me first and right now….does not work!

Those who have this textbook of universe reality (not all of it but much of it) can acknowledge the differences between cosmology and philosophy. Cosmology is the who and what and when and where of the universe while philosophy is that perspective which harmonizes all of that in mind, choice, and deed. What remains so mysterious to many should be so much clearer to us.

I look forward to other’s far better and more precise articulation of this. Thanks everyone.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Jan 28, 2016, 10:22 AM

Bradly wrote:

Greetings Gene! Actually philosophy is mostly all action and very little, too little, talk and even less thought. Every single person has a philosophy of living. Too many do not think about what their philosophy of living is. Indeed, we cannot have a philosophy that we do not live…for, like religion, only the living of it is the true expression of either philosophy or religion. Our philosophy, IMO, is what we live for, why we choose and do what we so choose and do. It is true that many, perhaps most, people cannot even articulate their philosophy of living….but they’ve got one nonetheless. While a good and functional philosophy unites the inner/spiritual world (religious aspect) and material world (the science of the physical realm, including how to exist in the physical systems of the world) – still, we enter every day with some functional or dysfunctional perspective of reality or non-realities that predetermines our motives, intentions, priorities, and choices for the day. Why do we do what we do? Why do we choose what we so choose? There are irrational, unbalanced, and painful philosophies for living as well as thoughtful, noble, enlightening, and functional philosophies. One of the greatest benefits and values to be discovered in the Urantia Papers is that knowledge of facts and truth regarding universe realities and our place in the cosmology of reality which supports a sound philosophy of living. The eliminations of error and the reduction of confusions allows for this very functional result – a philosophy of living the unites and harmonizes our inner and outer lives into greater meaning and greater progress as we, over time and by experience, learn how to transfer the seat of our very identity. Philosophy is not an abstraction nor all that complex really….especially if one knows what’s what and who’s who and has a time unit perspective that sees beyond the material struggles of the day and provides context for perspective. Philosophy is pretty much our “view” and our “lense” through which we see everything, including ourselves within that everything. It’s always been one of my favorite topics….especially once I discovered the UB!

Nicely said, Bradly!

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Jan 28, 2016, 10:32 AM

Bradly wrote:

A great philosophical question is: Why does God punish us? or: Why does God pour suffering upon us? A few centuries before Jesus brought the good news of God’s paternal love and mercy, the Eastern philosophers knew that it is free will that delivers both “suffering” and “punishment”. Suffering (mental, emotional, and much material pain/loss, etc.) comes from very bad motives, intentions, priorities, and choices – especially when those are based on what the UB calls mind poisons – fear, anger, impatience, pride, greed, envy, etc. In other words we suffer or benefit from the reciprocity and consequence cycle of cause and effect! Free will causes effects – both good and bad. God only gave us free will…it’s up to us what we do with it….but the effects derived by this profound mechanism and lever of cause are not ours to choose. We only choose the cause of the effects. Want different effects/outcomes? Simple! The effects follow the cause….this ain’t rocket science! The solution? Love of God and for others. Easy peasy!! Self love causes suffering and brings punishment. Not as personalized by God or the gods or luck. Nope. Without consequences of choice, how then would a free will mind learn to make better choices? Why do the outcomes of love and service work out so well? This is not accidental. The WAY of the universe is loving service one for another. That WAY works. Me first and right now….does not work! Those who have this textbook of universe reality (not all of it but much of it) can acknowledge the differences between cosmology and philosophy. Cosmology is the who and what and when and where of the universe while philosophy is that perspective which harmonizes all of that in mind, choice, and deed. What remains so mysterious to many should be so much clearer to us. I look forward to other’s far better and more precise articulation of this. Thanks everyone.

Thank you! Some fine thought work there, as usual. But I think of consequences instead of punishment, consequences are not judgmental, vindictive, or personal.

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Jan 28, 2016, 2:12 PM
So where are we, as a world, with regard to education, philosophy in schools?

This Wikipedia article provides fascinating insights into that question. Looks like the US is disregarding it until college level:

“In the United States of America philosophy is not generally taught at pre-college level.”

Continental Europe

In many other European countries philosophy is part of the high school curriculum, such as for example in Austria, Croatia, Bulgaria, France, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Poland, and mainly Spain. In Germany the subject ethics has been introduced in more and more parts since the 1970s. In Croatia the subject ethics can be taken instead of religious education which mainly focuses on Catholic tradition. Spain is the most clear example of a philosophy education. In Secondary school all the students must take a little introduction to ethics, but it is during the sixth form, known there as ‘bachillerato’, where it is compulsory to take philosophy and citizenship in the first course, as well as history of philosophy in the second course in order to apply for university or just to get the title. University-level philosophy courses are widespread and are usually thought to have the longest tradition in the subject due to the historical ascription for the invention of philosophy as a separate discipline to the philosophers of Ancient Greece. Despite this, interest in the subject in most of Europe seems to be on a relative decline.

Africa and the Middle East

Philosophy education has a long tradition in some of the Arab states. According to a UNESCO-led poll, philosophy is taught at secondary level in Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Kuwait, Lebanon, Morocco, Mauritania, Qatar, the Syrian Arab Republic, Tunisia and Yemen. In most Arab countries the subject is taught at university (higher education) level. However, there are exceptions, like Oman and Saudi Arabia, where philosophy is entirely absent at most educational levels.

Asia

Philosophy education is traditionally available in most of Asia since the continent gave birth to the schools of Eastern philosophy. The 20th and early 21st century saw the increased interest in the field (especially in Western philosophy) in the Asian continent, with India, China and especially South Korea and Japan as major contemporary academic and research hubs.[need quotation to verify] However, broad regional and interstate differences apply.

Source/more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_education

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Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Jan 28, 2016, 4:23 PM
My personal opinion is that education in the U.S. will continue to be inadequate and mediocre as long as it is run by the state. How can a state run school teach philosophy if God and religion are excluded (separation of church and state taken to the max)? By TUB definition, philosophy must consider religion or it’s not philosophy. Ethics is a poor cousin, perhaps better than nothing, but I don’t think so.

The problem with teaching ethics is that currently ethics means teaching the art of purchasing and applying a condom, who to contact for an abortion, how to undergo sexual transition gracefully, the philosophy of same sex families, the philosophy of anti-capitalism, the moral and ethical mandates of global warming, the injustice of competition, and the need to punish humanity for all its past, present and future transgressions, particularly racial transgressions. I don’t think it’s really ethics that is being taught as much as political ideologies, always a problem when the state dictates the lesson plan. Which brings me back to what I said at the beginning of this thread, I think ideology has replaced philosophy in our era.

It might be interesting to take a look at education on a neighboring planet starting on page 812. They don’t teach philosophy in K-12. I think they spend their time teaching kids how to work, make things and be productive. There are schools of philosophy at the college level. And apparently they meld philosophy and religion in their own way. It sounds like a better plan to me.
GeneParticipant
Jan 28, 2016, 7:20 PM
Education in America is hurting

kids are being taught what to think, not how.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Jan 29, 2016, 11:25 AM
Agree, education is sorely lacking, and not just in the US. In parts of the world kids get no education at all. But, it is good to discover that we aren’t the first to to realize civilization’s educational shortcomings, or that philosophy has a place in every school.

This is from a Wikipedia article titled, “Philosophy Education”, about a pre-college philosophy education organization, based in the US, acronymed PLATO:

“PLATO (Philosophy Learning and Teaching Organization) advocates and supports introducing philosophy to K-12 students through programs, resource-sharing and the development of a national network of those working in pre-college philosophy. PLATO promotes philosophy classes for all K-12 students, including those in classrooms least likely to have access to academic enrichment programs. Bringing together the education and philosophy communities, PLATO celebrates diversity within the philosophy classroom and endorses a wide variety of philosophical approaches and methods.”

Source/more: http://plato-philosophy.org/who-we-are/about/

Richard E Warren
GeneParticipant
Jan 29, 2016, 2:55 PM
One popular schoolbook writer in America (Howard Zinn) is an avid follower of the philosopher Rousseau.

he writes nonsense sometimes

quotes like this: “objectivity is impossible, and it is also undesirable. That is, if it were possible it would be undesirable”.

what do you make of that?

maybe it is a good idea to expose kids to Godless, strictly science philosophies? But it should be countered with the opposite.
BradlyParticipant
Jan 29, 2016, 3:27 PM
Reminds me of a favorite Zen teaching:

Things are not as they appear….and neither are they different.

I disagree that objectivity cannot be achieved or is undesirable, but I do agree that personal objectivity is not exactly an accurate perspective of reality when it is achieved. But to remove oneself from the center of a subjective universe is helpful I think and demonstrates a view of greater context inclusion and a diminishment of self importance.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Jan 29, 2016, 6:42 PM
I’m not sure whether it’s possible to be completely objective all of the time. That would be like Data from Star Trek Next Generation. Don’t we all view the world through our own personal lens, which makes reality subject to personal bias? The purpose of the three cosmic intuitions is to give us an objective latch onto reality. Otherwise, all of our experiences are essentially subjective.

p195.7, 16:9.1 The cosmic-mind-endowed, Adjuster-indwelt, personal creature possesses innate recognition-realization of energy reality, mind reality, and spirit reality. The will creature is thus equipped to discern the fact, the law, and the love of God. Aside from these three inalienables of human consciousness, all human experience is really subjective except that intuitive realization of validity attaches to the unification of these three universe reality responses of cosmic recognition.
GeneParticipant
Jan 29, 2016, 9:23 PM

Bradly wrote:

Reminds me of a favorite Zen teaching: Things are not as they appear….and neither are they different. I disagree that objectivity cannot be achieved or is undesirable, but I do agree that personal objectivity is not exactly an accurate perspective of reality when it is achieved. But to remove oneself from the center of a subjective universe is helpful I think and demonstrates a view of greater context inclusion and a diminishment of self importance.

So balance makes sense. Religion and science are agreeable and compatible.

interesting that inside the Vatican where the gospel of Jesus is cocooned, the supposed ground zero for religions’ war against science – there are two murals that have been there for probably centuries taking up entire walls that are opposite each other, one side great people and moments from religious history and the other great people and moments of science.

the question becomes: how did the western religions come to war with science? Godless philosophers that have been influenced by the enlightenment era. The Darwinians of the world were much a part in of it.

just my 2 cents.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Jan 30, 2016, 11:45 AM
It’s true unfortunately, there is no shortage of strange and tragically misleading theories in the realm of philosophy. But we know if truth is properly respected, injected and detected, it will gradually edge out the errors.

Here’s another educational website with a focus entirely on Philosophy. http://www.askphilosophers.org/topics

Interesting to note, God is not one of the topics!

Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Jan 30, 2016, 2:43 PM

Rick Warren wrote: Interesting to note, God is not one of the topics!

There are over 300 questions about religion, which includes God. They’re all pretty good questions too.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Jan 30, 2016, 3:14 PM

Bonita wrote:

There are over 300 questions about religion, which includes God. They’re all pretty good questions too.

Good to hear, Bonita. Also, it is worth noting that the most popular topic by far, far, is Ethics! The nearest, at half the questions, is Philosophy.

http://www.askphilosophers.org/topic/culture?topic=232

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Richard E Warren
MaraParticipant
Jan 30, 2016, 7:53 PM
Well, the purpose of all education should be to foster and further the supreme purpose of life. (195:10:17 ) People think about the purpose and meaning of their life, whether or not they live in the United States. The US citizenry is not a “chosen people”, though a vein of ethnocentric thinking runs strong in the white population. There is bigotry, racism, intolerance, persecution, meanness, selfishness – the worst sides of human nature.

5:5:14 The ability of mortal parents to procreate is not predicated on their educational, cultural, social, or economic status. The union of the parental factors under natural conditions is quite sufficient to initiate offspring. A human mind discerning right and wrong and possessing the capacity to worship God, in union with a divine Adjuster, is all that is required in that mortal to initiate and foster the production of his immortal soul of survival qualities if such a spirit-endowed individual seeks God and sincerely desires to become like him, honestly elects to do the will of the Father in heaven.

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Social problems abound in the US. Sex education is important for every budding citizen. Citizens have the right to choose whether or not to terminate a pregnancy, and this is good for those whose personal philosophy allows a decision to terminate. Personally, my decision was to go-to-term with a pregnancy, and my personal philosophy encompasses a woman’s the right to choose. I am pro-choice. But what does choosing to terminate a pregnancy or go-to-term with it have to do with the capacity to worship God, to seek Him and to sincerely desire to become like him, honestly elect to do the will of our Father in heaven? What does using a condom have to do with this? What does climate change have to do with this? What does having clean drinking water have to do with this? But social and environmental problems do exist. They have to be dealt with, and it is the responsibility of teams of people to deal with them and implement solutions, going forward, not going backward to bygone days. Your and my reactions to these issues inform others of a personal world-view or philosophy – what we individually think about particular issues. These are viewpoints, and I suggest that the sometimes the knee gives a jerk before any thought or information on the issue is pursued. Viewpoints are not necessarily based on insight or experience. Fortunately, the gift of free will gives each of us the ability to have a change of mind about things, even the Spirit of Truth.

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194:2:2 The first mission of this spirit is, of course, to foster and personalize truth, for it is the comprehension of truth that constitutes the highest form of human liberty.
AnonymousInactive
Jan 30, 2016, 10:36 PM

Mara wrote:

[. . .] They have to be dealt with, and it is the responsibility of teams of people to deal with them and implement solutions, going forward, not going backward to bygone days. Your and my reactions to these issues inform others of a personal world-view or philosophy – what we individually think about particular issues. These are viewpoints, and I suggest that the sometimes the knee gives a jerk before any thought or information on the issue is pursued. Viewpoints are not necessarily based on insight or experience. Fortunately, the gift of free will gives each of us the ability to have a change of mind about things, even the Spirit of Truth.

Mara, what you have presented can be considered true by many and yet there would be some or many who would have a different viewpoint or opinion. For the most part I can agree with your viewpoint but I also would indicate that for problem solving to be of value it must be predicated on more than education, philosophy, insight, purpose or wishful thinking, to name just a few. The solution to any problem must first be to find the truth or cause to that problem. As one attempts to find that cause, assuming that we start with the effects or symptoms which most often mask the root cause, we attempt to implement a solution to these effects or symptoms, which may alter what was only a specific part of the root cause thereby changing what was considered a truth or partial truth. Therefore your last sentence presented above in portion is true and necessary, but it is philosophy which allows for the changing of mind about things and, free will to choose to act out those thoughts, assuming that we think they are true, even if this truth is only partly true.

As you indicate we have a responsibility to work on these problems and if possible to work in teams to resolve them. But, who is to organize these teams, and setup their infrastructure if as they say “there is no ‘I’ in team” and, personal philosophy is an ‘I’ thing and subjective to the person? The ‘problem’ is the objective viewpoint of many who see the problem in different ways and for some there is no problem because they choose the cookie cutter form of thinking as a group rather then the individualistic approach using the multiple I’s from within. One does not need to be fused with their adjuster to apply what the Spirit of Truth and the personality present as a philosophy or theory. The thought adjuster or monitor sees and hears what one sees and hears, as well as what one thinks. It is the joint network of thought adjusters who make up the team by which change can be made through creative thought from the individuals. One must believe that “with God all things are possible” and that if one sees a problem and has the desire to learn as much about a problem in order to form a philosophy as to its resolution or understanding of the root cause, then change can progress.

As has been mentioned in this topic, our education system teaches one what to think and not how to think. This can be seen in the form by which this system grades the individuals progress through their evolution of learning, not taking into account for any creative imagination which is sometimes stimulated by a student when the cookie cutter answers, expected by the system, do not conform to their philosophy of thinking and generate more questions then can be answered by known truths. Therefore, it might be better to structure the system, which uses testing to determine a students progress, to include multiple choice answers which reflect the students thought process where there are no wrong answers and every choice has a relative value based on the possibility of being true in the future? This type of testing structure can also help evaluate a psychological foundation of the developing personality which can be used to determine other factors which make up a persons intellectual makeup affected by environment. Food for thought.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Jan 31, 2016, 11:19 AM
Much, very much, food for thought here. Thank you all.

Seems like philosophy is many things, a reconciler of the insights of religion and the facts of science, a view of life, the art of thinking, a guide to interacting with humans and God.

This is the dictionary definition:

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The study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.

These descriptors from the authors expand and refine the definition of the word considerably:

…Philosophy is man’s attempt at the unification of human experience. 196:3:30

…In science the human self observes the material world; philosophy is the observation of this observation of the material world…. 112:2:12

…The union of the scientific attitude and the religious insight by the mediation of experiential philosophy is part of man’s long Paradise-ascension experience. 103:7:4

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…Religions have long endured without philosophical support, but few philosophies, as such, have long persisted without some identification with religion. Philosophy is to religion as conception is to action. But the ideal human estate is that in which philosophy, religion, and science are welded into a meaningful unity by the conjoined action of wisdom, faith, and experience. 98:2:12

…When the philosophy of man leans heavily toward the world of matter, it becomes rationalistic or naturalistic. When philosophy inclines particularly toward the spiritual level, it becomes idealistic or even mystical. When philosophy is so unfortunate as to lean upon metaphysics, it unfailingly becomes skeptical, confused. In past ages, most of man’s knowledge and intellectual evaluations have fallen into one of these three distortions of perception. Philosophy dare not project its interpretations of reality in the linear fashion of logic; it must never fail to reckon with the elliptic symmetry of reality and with the essential curvature of all relation concepts. 103:6:14

…The ideal of religious philosophy is such a faith-trust as would lead man unqualifiedly to depend upon the absolute love of the infinite Father of the universe of universes. Such a genuine religious experience far transcends the philosophic objectification of idealistic desire; it actually takes salvation for granted and concerns itself only with learning and doing the will of the Father in Paradise. 103:9:5

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Richard E Warren
Mark KurtzParticipant
Jan 31, 2016, 3:50 PM
This thread has been most wonderful to observe and absorb. How far can we go vetting and defining the mysteries?

Many different discussions on many forums have reminded me of Ganid’s remark to Jesus one day:

“Jesus and Ganid spent much time in the museum during their stay in Alexandria. This museum was not a collection of rare objects but rather a university of fine art, science, and literature. Learned professors here gave daily lectures, and in those times this was the intellectual center of the Occidental world. Day by day Jesus interpreted the lectures to Ganid; one day during the second week the young man exclaimed: “Teacher Joshua, you know more than these professors; you should stand up and tell them the great things you have told me; they are befogged by much thinking. I shall speak to my father and have him arrange it.” Jesus smiled, saying: “You are an admiring pupil, but these teachers are not minded that you and I should instruct them. The pride of unspiritualized learning is a treacherous thing”.

Makes me wonder when we reach the “befogged” moment! Maybe there is a philosophical explanation for helping us recognize the moment. Some discussions have gone on so long (in the past) they diluted interest. Row on in the waters until ye tire!
MaraParticipant
Jan 31, 2016, 7:42 PM

MidiChlorian wrote:

As has been mentioned in this topic, our education system teaches one what to think and not how to think.

The human mind is gifted with innate endowments of the cosmic mind (16:6:11). The human mind does know how to think. Public education opens the door to the knowledge of things and of meanings. Education provides tools to students and it does not end when the school door closes. Consider curiosity, an inborn endowment.

14:5:11 Curiosity — the spirit of investigation, the urge of discovery, the drive of exploration — is a part of the inborn and divine endowment of evolutionary space creatures. These natural impulses were not given you merely to be frustrated and repressed. True, these ambitious urges must frequently be restrained during your short life on earth, disappointment must be often experienced, but they are to be fully realized and gloriously gratified during the long ages to come.

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I don’t think we have to teach students know how to think. Every will creature is wired, so to speak, to the seven adjutant mind-spirits and their ministry (36:5:0).

65:6:10 The physical brain with its associated nervous system possesses innate capacity for response to mind ministry just as the developing mind of a personality possesses a certain innate capacity for spirit receptivity and therefore contains the potentials of spiritual progress and attainment. Intellectual, social, moral, and spiritual evolution are dependent on the mind ministry of the seven adjutant spirits and their superphysical associates.

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Philosophy is the search for wisdom (71:7:4) (102:3:12)

112:6:9 The soul of survival value faithfully reflects both the qualitative and the quantitative actions and motivations of the material intellect, the former seat of the identity of selfhood. In the choosing of truth, beauty, and goodness, the mortal mind enters upon its premorontia universe career under the tutelage of the seven adjutant mind–spirits unified under the direction of the spirit of wisdom. Subsequently, upon the completion of the seven circles of premorontia attainment, the superimposition of the endowment of morontia mind upon adjutant mind initiates the prespiritual or morontia career of local universe progression.

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All of us have a role to play sooner or later in the role of a pupil-teacher. We learn by doing, and then by giving back to others what we experientially learned.

25:4:12 […] As you journey toward your Paradise goal, constantly acquiring added knowledge and enhanced skill, you are continuously afforded the opportunity to give out to others the wisdom and experience you have already accumulated; all the way in to Havona you enact the role of a pupil-teacher. You will work your way through the ascending levels of this vast experiential university by imparting to those just below you the new-found knowledge of your advancing career. In the universal regime you are not reckoned as having possessed yourself of knowledge and truth until you have demonstrated your ability and your willingness to impart this knowledge and truth to others.

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And we will take tests and get certified too!

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My question is: Who wants to think outside the box of the currently accepted views of one’s family and friends. It takes courage and daring to develop a cosmic philosophy of living.

2:7:10 The religious challenge of this age is to those farseeing and forward-looking men and women of spiritual insight who will dare to construct a new and appealing philosophy of living out of the enlarged and exquisitely integrated modern concepts of cosmic truth, universe beauty, and divine goodness. Such a new and righteous vision of morality will attract all that is good in the mind of man and challenge that which is best in the human soul. Truth, beauty, and goodness are divine realities, and as man ascends the scale of spiritual living, these supreme qualities of the Eternal become increasingly co-ordinated and unified in God, who is love.
Mark KurtzParticipant
Jan 31, 2016, 8:06 PM
Another consideration is whether man is forced to think. Did advancing ice force him to move? What did they think when faced with no option? Did they think there is “something out there who is tormenting us”? Surely their philosophical conflicts, conundrums and decision necessities made them think about priorities of their day.

And, we hear from the Revelators about pressure from above. We must think whether we like it or not. Life shall not be lounging on a swaying hammock on a warm afternoon as someone brings us iced cool aid and grapes!

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