What steps can Christianity take to re-invent itself?

197 posts · 15 participants · started May 31, 2015, 1:16 AM

1. V

   VernParticipant
   Sep 24, 2015, 8:42 AM

   Sabinatu wrote:  Christianity would not disappear if it stopped emphasizing The Atonement Doctrine

   Judaism gave origin to Christianity and the failed compromise of atonement Paul introduced did not achieve its intended aim of appealing to Judaism, they already had a culturally sufficient sybmbolic working version of atonement in place.

   Pope Francis’ first trip to the U.S. coincides with one of the holiest days on the Jewish calendar: Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement.

   has its roots with Moses.

   Traditionally, Yom Kippur is considered the date on which Moses received the second set of Ten Commandments. It occurred following the completion of the second 40 days of instructions from God. At this same time, the Israelites were granted atonement for the sin of the Golden Calf; hence, its designation as the Day of Atonement.

   he much venerated Moses in his robust denunciation of polytheism as manifest in the worship of idols, had the unfortunate consequence of hindering acceptance of the Trinity. The evolution of the God concept in Judaism did however have a three-person-deity in the form of Elohim as preserved by the Sumerian-Chaldean groups who kept alive the teachings of Melchizedek.

   Elohim. In Kish and Ur there long persisted Sumerian-Chaldean groups who taught a three-in-one God concept founded on the traditions of the days of Adam and Melchizedek. This doctrine was carried to Egypt, where this Trinity was worshiped under the name of Elohim, or in the singular as Eloah. The philosophic circles of Egypt and later Alexandrian teachers of Hebraic extraction taught this unity of pluralistic Gods, and many of Moses’ advisers at the time of the exodus believed in this Trinity. But the concept of the trinitarian Elohim never became a real part of Hebrew theology until after they had come under the political influence of the Babylonians.  ^{[Paper96:1.8, page 1053.6]}

   Perhaps Judaism could re-discover Elohim?

2. S

   SabinatuBlocked
   Sep 26, 2015, 10:35 AM

   @Vern – “Perhaps Judaism could re-discover Elohim?

   Perhaps not.

   “Presented by a Melchizedek of Nebadon”

   He is the tough critic of religion that even you believe we need after he makes the case.  So let’s go back to a cut and paste job never offered from Paper 92: – “….Evolutionary religion pictures the circuitous gropings of humanity in quest of truth; revelatory religion isthat truth….”.

   So the Atonement Doctrine is one of those gropings that comes up empty handed. No truth there about God’s relationship with creation.

   So what? Why the well-nigh hysteria in hanging on to it by people who know better? There is a motive. A cynical management of primitivism by those groping for power.

   Further on, “….Of all who received the teachings of the one hundred, the red man held them longest, but the idea of a Great Spirit was but a hazy concept in Amerindian religion when Christianity greatly clarified and strengthened it….”.

   Fatherhood of God, Brotherhood of Man.

   Not sure the “what is torture when greed is good?” cabal of religionists – a small sect but oh so domineering philosophically – is as a religious development? Is it evolutionary, or a personal revelation of humanity’s origin, purpose and destiny that is built on the shoulders of the previous revelations – the five major epochal revelations that – “is that truth”?

   Paper 93 – “….But even this cautious innovation was not altogether successful; the various tribes all maintained auxiliary centers on the outskirts of Salem where they offered sacrifices and burnt offerings….”.

   That was the failure of the third epochal revelation.

   The fifth epochal revelation – The Urantia Book – is firm in not promoting The Atonement Doctrine that attached itself to Christianity. A vigorous case is made to jettison it if Christianity is to continue to “clarify and strengthen” great world religions present on today’s stage.

   You are not going to end up being nailed to a cross by living ethically inspired by the spiritual practices Jesus taught. At least you should trust that people living ethically the same way will not be the ones to nail you with sacrifice and affliction (an “atonement” doctrine) while they get to grope for truth in Hedonism, Nihilism, and Anarchy.

   The separation of church and state in the formation of the United States was always about keeping RELIGION safe from the reaches of the gropers. Don’t let anyone tell you any different

   It’s gotta go. That “atonement” hysteria…you almost wish that those who launch these tyrannical controls of revolution would have a Director with the power to yell, “STOP. You are over-acting!”.

3. M

   MaraParticipant
   Sep 26, 2015, 3:11 PM

   Thoughts to ponder for our mutual edification.

    

   188:5:2   The cross forever shows that the attitude of Jesus toward sinners was neither condemnation nor condonation, but rather eternal and loving salvation. Jesus is truly a savior in the sense that his life and death do win men over to goodness and righteous survival. Jesus loves men so much that his love awakens the response of love in the human heart. Love is truly contagious and eternally creative. Jesus’ death on the cross exemplifies a love which is sufficiently strong and divine to forgive sin and swallow up all evil-doing. Jesus disclosed to this world a higher quality of righteousness than justice — mere technical right and wrong. Divine love does not merely forgive wrongs; it absorbs and actually destroys them. The forgiveness of love utterly transcends the forgiveness of mercy. Mercy sets the guilt of evil-doing to one side; but love destroys forever the sin and all weakness resulting therefrom. Jesus brought a new method of living to Urantia. He taught us not to resist evil but to find through him a goodness which effectually destroys evil. The forgiveness of Jesus is not condonation; it is salvation from condemnation. Salvation does not slight wrongs; it makes them right. True love does not compromise nor condone hate; it destroys it. The love of Jesus is never satisfied with mere forgiveness. The Master’s love implies rehabilitation, eternal survival. It is altogether proper to speak of salvation as redemption if you mean this eternal rehabilitation.

   Jesus said,

   141:6:2    “Simon, Simon, how many times have I instructed you to refrain from all efforts to take something out of the hearts of those who seek salvation? How often have I told you to labor only to put something into these hungry souls? Lead men into the kingdom, and the great and living truths of the kingdom will presently drive out all serious error. When you have presented to mortal man the good news that God is his Father, you can the easier persuade him that he is in reality a son of God. And having done that, you have brought the light of salvation to the one who sits in darkness. Simon, when the Son of Man came first to you, did he come denouncing Moses and the prophets and proclaiming a new and better way of life? No. I came not to take away that which you had from your forefathers but to show you the perfected vision of that which your fathers saw only in part. Go then, Simon, teaching and preaching the kingdom, and when you have a man safely and securely within the kingdom, then is the time, when such a one shall come to you with inquiries, to impart instruction having to do with the progressive advancement of the soul within the divine kingdom.”

   .

   160:3:5   This new gospel of the kingdom renders a great service to the art of living in that it supplies a new and richer incentive for higher living. It presents a new and exalted goal of destiny, a supreme life purpose. And these new concepts of the eternal and divine goal of existence are in themselves transcendent stimuli, calling forth the reaction of the very best that is resident in man’s higher nature. On every mountaintop of intellectual thought are to be found relaxation for the mind, strength for the soul, and communion for the spirit. From such vantage points of high living, man is able to transcend the material irritations of the lower levels of thinking — worry, jealousy, envy, revenge, and the pride of immature personality. These high-climbing souls deliver themselves from a multitude of the crosscurrent conflicts of the trifles of living, thus becoming free to attain consciousness of the higher currents of spirit concept and celestial communication. But the life purpose must be jealously guarded from the temptation to seek for easy and transient attainment; likewise must it be so fostered as to become immune to the disastrous threats of fanaticism.

   .

   Beware of those lower levels of thinking.  And be of good cheer!  We are blessed.
4. C

   chucksmith1982Participant
   Sep 26, 2015, 6:35 PM

   Vern, you implied in that last post that all those who believed in the atonement doctrine were only after power, at least that’s what I took from it. While in some cases people who claimed to support that doctrine may have been guilty of that, the majority of Christians hold the atonement doctrine as central to their faith and are not power hungry.

   Incidentally, there have been both the devout and the power hungry in every religion, even in our own movement.

   As for the one above who I can’t remember right now, the one that asked would the religions of Jewdism and Christianity disappear if that doctrine were removed, I’d have to disagree with you when you said no they would not. To some people in both religions, that is a central doctrine. It is the reason that they hold to that particular religion for what ever reason… especially the more conservative sects.

   Here is a question about that by the way. I know this is a bit off topic, but I read on another forum of a Jewish reader of the ub who found great benifit from reading it.  Keep in mind that that was second hand, not from the actual reader. Anyway, a Jewish person made a comment to the effect that she was from the more conservative sect of Jewidism and, after siteing the appropriate passage in a document that all adult Jews have to sign if they wish to return to the faith, pointed out that if a Jew actually made profession of the ub, that they would be excommunicated from the jewish community. I didn’t have time to read the entire thread, but it is under the skeptics corner on truthbook if anyone is interested.

5. S

   SabinatuBlocked
   Sep 26, 2015, 6:50 PM

   Looks like it will be impossible to stay on a topic without the cut and paste slaps. Sigh.

   Here’s “fruits” of the Atonement Doctrine:

   http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/islamic-state-apocalyptic-beliefs_56044f37e4b08820d91c21a3?

    

   “Divine love does not merely forgive wrongs; it absorbs and actually destroys them.”

   DIVINE LOVE. God LOVE.

   Perfection is a process. A LONG process. But there is always a first step – try to leave people alone when you clearly can’t even muster up human “like” for them because that lack of divine love is your fault, not theirs. Simple logic – God distributes His gifts to his children equally, He is not in hiding. So KNOWING all this about God and still hanging on to an Atonement Doctrine is “bearing false witness”. Is it God’s fault there too? Is He not perfect enough in His love for you in order for you to LOVE HIM in return?

   And I DEFINITELY have lost patience with using the same quotes from TUB over and over and over and over again that are psychobabble management attempts – the “you are not jesus-enough” schtick…I’m pretty convinced that 99% of Parts I – III went zing over the head of “readers” otherwise why keep getting it wrong – the CONTEXT? Jesus knew all that is in Parts I – III (and so much more) and what Jesus said to the men he chose as his Apostles was an adjustment made to THEIR knowledge in THEIR day – that is why – HOW – Jesus did that is an inspiration to all of Nebadon. The inspiration is to RAISE people by RAISING their knowledge about “Divine Love”….HOW did Jesus raise the Apostles in that understanding?

   “4. The Gift of Revelation

   92:4.1 (1007.1) Revelation is evolutionary but always progressive. Down through the ages of a world’s history, the revelations of religion are ever-expanding and successively more enlightening. It is the mission of revelation to sort and censor the successive religions of evolution. But if revelation is to exalt and upstep the religions of evolution, then must such divine visitations portray teachings which are not too far removed from the thought and reactions of the age in which they are presented. Thus must and does revelation always keep in touch with evolution. Always must the religion of revelation be limited by man’s capacity of receptivity.

   92:4.2 (1007.2) But regardless of apparent connection or derivation, the religions of revelation are always characterized by a belief in some Deity of final value and in some concept of the survival of personality identity after death.

   92:4.3 (1007.3) Evolutionary religion is sentimental, not logical. It is man’s reaction to belief in a hypothetical ghost-spirit world — the human belief-reflex, excited by the realization and fear of the unknown. Revelatory religion is propounded by the real spiritual world; it is the response of the superintellectual cosmos to the mortal hunger to believe in, and depend upon, the universal Deities. Evolutionary religion pictures the circuitous gropings of humanity in quest of truth; revelatory religion is that very truth.

   92:4.4 (1007.4) There have been many events of religious revelation but only five of epochal significance. These were as follows:

   92:4.5 (1007.5) 1. The Dalamatian teachings. The true concept of the First Source and Center was first promulgated on Urantia by the one hundred corporeal members of Prince Caligastia’s staff. This expanding revelation of Deity went on for more than three hundred thousand years until it was suddenly terminated by the planetary secession and the disruption of the teaching regime. Except for the work of Van, the influence of the Dalamatian revelation was practically lost to the whole world. Even the Nodites had forgotten this truth by the time of Adam’s arrival. Of all who received the teachings of the one hundred, the red men held them longest, but the idea of the Great Spirit was but a hazy concept in Amerindian religion when contact with Christianity greatly clarified and strengthened it.

   92:4.6 (1007.6) 2. The Edenic teachings. Adam and Eve again portrayed the concept of the Father of all to the evolutionary peoples. The disruption of the first Eden halted the course of the Adamic revelation before it had ever fully started. But the aborted teachings of Adam were carried on by the Sethite priests, and some of these truths have never been entirely lost to the world. The entire trend of Levantine religious evolution was modified by the teachings of the Sethites. But by 2500 B.C. mankind had largely lost sight of the revelation sponsored in the days of Eden.

   92:4.7 (1007.7) 3. Melchizedek of Salem. This emergency Son of Nebadon inaugurated the third revelation of truth on Urantia. The cardinal precepts of his teachings were trust and faith. He taught trust in the omnipotent beneficence of God and proclaimed that faith was the act by which men earned God’s favor. His teachings gradually commingled with the beliefs and practices of various evolutionary religions and finally developed into those theologic systems present on Urantia at the opening of the first millennium after Christ.

   92:4.8 (1008.1) 4. Jesus of Nazareth. Christ Michael presented for the fourth time to Urantia the concept of God as the Universal Father, and this teaching has generally persisted ever since. The essence of his teaching was love and service, the loving worship which a creature son voluntarily gives in recognition of, and response to, the loving ministry of God his Father; the freewill service which such creature sons bestow upon their brethren in the joyous realization that in this service they are likewise serving God the Father.

   92:4.9 (1008.2) 5. The Urantia Papers. The papers, of which this is one, constitute the most recent presentation of truth to the mortals of Urantia. These papers differ from all previous revelations, for they are not the work of a single universe personality but a composite presentation by many beings. But no revelation short of the attainment of the Universal Father can ever be complete. All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space. While such admissions as this may possibly detract from the immediate force and authority of all revelations, the time has arrived on Urantia when it is advisable to make such frank statements, even at the risk of weakening the future influence and authority of this, the most recent of the revelations of truth to the mortal races of Urantia.”

   The Atonement Doctrine went from the individual trying to buy forgiveness to people not even asking for forgiveness for their individual transgressions because Jesus is the ultimate scapegoat – he DIED for my sins so I do not even have to ask for forgiveness – I can cheerily accuse anyone trying to talk about applying human Rule of Law as being not jesus-like….and if that fails, I can definitely buy the right “judgement” with the vast stolen wealth I own, right?

   I did mention that the CONTEXT of Part IV will reveal a different take on what Jesus SAID (never wrote anything down, must have known about the twisted psychology of the cut and paste crowd) if you take in Parts I – III as the REVEALED context

   Paper 93 – 4. The Salem Religion

   Rule of Law was built carefully and experientially on the shoulders of all the greatness that came before – “….You shall not bear false witness, You shall not kill, You shall not steal…”

   Do not even DARE to bring up the “Disrespect” law – we are PEERS, fellow readers are NOT “parents and elders” with a nefarious agenda for “end times”.

   I am laying down the “Law” card. I have the God-given right to freedom of religion which is impossible without freedom of “speech” (all human expressions of “love”, if you will, imperfect as they are). Fairness, Justice, Mercy – all ASPECTS of Divine Love – the FOUNDATION of the Rule of Law.

   
   @Chuck – I think you would really enjoy reading Paper 92 in regards to “religion” as a mind endowment – 92:2.3 (1004.6) When modern man wonders at the presentation of so much in the scriptures of different religions that may be regarded as obscene, he should pause to consider that passing generations have feared to eliminate what their ancestors deemed to be holy and sacred. A great deal that one generation might look upon as obscene, preceding generations have considered a part of their accepted mores, even as approved religious rituals. A considerable amount of religious controversy has been occasioned by the never-ending attempts to reconcile olden but reprehensible practices with newly advanced reason, to find plausible theories in justification of creedal perpetuation of ancient and outworn customs.

   IMO, take the people to court that are attempting to deny religious freedom to anyone else in USA – these “anti” wha’ever PC lists are ILLEGAL in USA. And the FACT that everyone fears to get on that list is only proof of the iniquitous, barbaric, and murderous souls that keep such lists…do they even deserve to live in USA when they FLAUNT the breaking of USA’s freedom of religion laws?

6. S

   SabinatuBlocked
   Sep 27, 2015, 7:43 PM

   “Why did Jesus not write anything down?” was clearly answered in TUB.

   Many types of personalities are still vulnerable to idolatry (greed is good) and sanctimonious error prone tyrannical and self-serving “false witness” judgments using what Jesus “said” to rationalize their iniquity.  The dangerous Bible-thumpers who are not even “christian” – never were and never will be “christian” – got to bear a LOT of “false witness” against even the followers of Paul’s glorified Christ from the word “go” two millenia ago.  That’s a lot of psychological noise that has accompanied the tip of the spear, all to boil down into a hardened “Atonement Doctrine”, and even that is worse than it was before because the individual is not trying to buy God’s forgiveness anymore – he doesn’t have to because JESUS died for his sins.  Sigh.

   Maybe I missed it, has there been a discussion, here, there, or anywhere else on TUB “forums” or in Study Groups about how “enlarged” is the Seventh Bestowal of Michael of Nebadon in TUB?  Having the United Midwayers present a eye witness account as Part IV is a courageous move but I guess they (TUB commission) correctly “judged” that the benefits of writing it down IN CONTEXT of Parts I – III was going to far outweigh any “evil” to come along…and they were right.

7. M

   Moderator-2Moderator
   Sep 28, 2015, 12:55 AM

   I would admonish all participants on this thread to refrain from any further personal attacks and to focus on the subject of the thread. If you believe you have been unjustly treated by a fellow participant do not engage in a public conflict. You can inform the moderators by leaving a message on the Support and Suggestions forum. Persistent offenders should be ignored and left to the moderators to deal with.

8. V

   VernParticipant
   Sep 28, 2015, 8:48 AM

   chucksmith1982 wrote:  …those who believed in the atonement doctrine were only after power, at least that’s what I took from it.

   Hi Chuck, If that’s what you think I wrote, please show me where?

   I did write this however:

   Vern wrote:  …step, by bloody, historical step, to go through the necessary stages taking mankind to a state of readiness for up-stepped truth. Here we are! Spiritual progress is a process of revelation in conjunction with evolution.

   Vern wrote:  Civilized men and women, believing Christians, have arrived at a place of elevated thinking in which their God concept is finally managing to go beyond delimiting notions of anthropomorphism. Only now do the universe controllers consider the potential of man is nearing that fortuitous threshold of relative dependability. That place of wisdom where spiritual truth can be assimilated and made actual by recognition of sonship status with God.

   Please give sincere thought to the truth that Jesus never taught such a doctrine as atonement.

   If you really follow Jesus, it means you value the substance of his teaching over the errors of Paul, an imperfect mortal, someone who never met Jesus.  It is intended that truth prevail over error. Our universe family have confidence in us to make the required adjustments over time. Looking at current conditions, I’m of the view the time is ripe. Clarification of confusion is one of the stated purposes of The Urantia Book.

   Chuck, do you consider the material the Midwayers have included regarding the need for Christianity to make the message that Jesus came to deliver a priority, important?
9. C

   chucksmith1982Participant
   Sep 28, 2015, 12:27 PM

   Sorry Vern, I went back and reread your posts. I got you confused with someone else, I think. If you want to go back and look at the quote that I thought was yours, here it is.

   Begin quote. So what? Why the well-nigh hysteria in hanging on to it by people who know better? There is a motive. A cynical management of primitivism by those groping for power. End quote. Still haven’t figured out about the block quotes, so this’ll have to do. Sorry again.

   As for your question, yes, I do consider the changing of Christianity important, but the only way that it can change in this regard is to destroy one of its most fundamental doctrines. That, in my view, would completely destroy the religion.

   The only problem with that is what would you replace it with? Most people in any given religion are not comfortable changing religions from the one they were born into. The same holds true for whatever religious views, conservative moderate or liberal that they were raised with as well.

10. V

    VernParticipant
    Sep 28, 2015, 1:47 PM

    chucksmith1982 wrote:  The only problem with that is what would you replace it with?

    What did Jesus come for in the first place?

    I don’t think It’s a matter of replacing Christianity with anything other than what it already has, but which has not yet been fully proclaimed as the main teaching.

    Stated several times in this topic thread previously. Jesus’ own words:

    “Your message to the world shall be: Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and in finding these, all other things essential to eternal survival shall be secured therewith. And now would I make it plain to you that this kingdom of my Father will not come with an outward show of power or with unseemly demonstration. You are not to go hence in the proclamation of the kingdom, saying, ‘it is here’ or ‘it is there,’ for this kingdom of which you preach is God within you.”  ^{[Paper 140:1.5, 1569:2]}
    

    Jesus laid great emphasis on the two truths of first import in the teachings of the kingdom:

    1. The attainment of salvation by faith, and faith alone.
    2. The attainment of human liberty through the sincere recognition of truth.

    Jesus laid great emphasis upon what he called the two truths of first import in the teachings of the kingdom, and they are: the attainment of salvation by faith, and faith alone, associated with the revolutionary teaching of the attainment of human liberty through the sincere recognition of truth, “You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” Jesus was the truth made manifest in the flesh, and he promised to send his Spirit of Truth into the hearts of all his children after his return to the Father in heaven. ^{[Paper 141:7.6, 1593:7]}

    Chuck, I figure you are a sincere seeker of truth and as such, are quite capable of appreciating the significance of this teaching.

    This is already a fundamental teaching of Christianity.

    “The kingdom of God is within you” was probably the greatest pronouncement Jesus ever made, next to the declaration that his Father is a living and loving spirit. ^{[Paper 195:10.4, page 2084.4]}

    Christianity has more work to do in sharing this common statement of spiritual unity with every race, culture and creed, with all people of the world.

11. C

    chucksmith1982Participant
    Sep 28, 2015, 5:00 PM

    Vern, the only problem is we can’t agree on why he came in the first place. The Christians say he came to die for our sins, and as a rellavent example, we the ub readers say he came to enlarge our understanding of God.

    Here’s a thought. The UB readership could discard the religions that we came from and form our own based entirely on the teachings found in the Urantia Book. We could found a Urantia church as well. That would happen eventually anyway, the ub itself implies it. Doesn’t it say something to the effect that in order for a religion to survive it must form a cult? That was what all religions started out as. Only trouble is that we couldn’t use the word cult as that word has a negative connotation and would turn people away. Let’s see…

    No preachers/priests… Wait, we’d have to have someone to perform weddings and funerals… We’d also have to develop our own training schools…  Just a thought. Oh well. It was an idea.

12. A

    AnonymousInactive
    Sep 28, 2015, 6:41 PM

    chucksmith1982 wrote:

    Here’s a thought. The UB readership could discard the religions that we came from and form our own based entirely on the teachings found in the Urantia Book. We could found a Urantia church as well. That would happen eventually anyway, the ub itself implies it. Doesn’t it say something to the effect that in order for a religion to survive it must form a cult? That was what all religions started out as. Only trouble is that we couldn’t use the word cult as that word has a negative connotation and would turn people away. Let’s see…

    Why must there be a material religion to represent the Spiritual Kingdom?

    (1457.2) 132:1.3 Unless the moral insight and the spiritual attainment of mankind are proportionately augmented, the unlimited advancement of a purely materialistic culture may eventually become a menace to civilization. A purely materialistic science harbors within itself the potential seed of the destruction of all scientific striving, for this very attitude presages the ultimate collapse of a civilization which has abandoned its sense of moral values and has repudiated its spiritual goal of attainment.

    (1457.3) 132:1.4 The materialistic scientist and the extreme idealist are destined always to be at loggerheads. This is not true of those scientists and idealists who are in possession of a common standard of high moral values and spiritual test levels. In every age scientists and religionists must recognize that they are on trial before the bar of human need. They must eschew all warfare between themselves while they strive valiantly to justify their continued survival by enhanced devotion to the service of human progress. If the so-called science or religion of any age is false, then must it either purify its activities or pass away before the emergence of a material science or spiritual religion of a truer and more worthy order.

     Can there not be a “Spiritual religion” in a material world?

    (1781.1) 160:5.5 The social characteristics of a true religion consist in the fact that it invariably seeks to convert the individual and to transform the world. Religion implies the existence of undiscovered ideals which far transcend the known standards of ethics and morality embodied in even the highest social usages of the most mature institutions of civilization. Religion reaches out for undiscovered ideals, unexplored realities, superhuman values, divine wisdom, and true spirit attainment. True religion does all of this; all other beliefs are not worthy of the name. You cannot have a genuine spiritual religion without the supreme and supernal ideal of an eternal God. A religion without this God is an invention of man, a human institution of lifeless intellectual beliefs and meaningless emotional ceremonies. A religion might claim as the object of its devotion a great ideal. But such ideals of unreality are not attainable; such a concept is illusionary. The only ideals susceptible of human attainment are the divine realities of the infinite values resident in the spiritual fact of the eternal God.

    What would a spiritual cult look like?

13. MK

    Mark KurtzParticipant
    Sep 28, 2015, 6:42 PM

    Chuck, There are people who have attempted, and perhaps continue to establish a Urantia Church.  So far, my understanding this is not a popular idea.  I see a danger of the Revelation falling into the same traps of authoritarian structure and ecclesiastes and just becoming another common movement.  The religion of Jesus is my goal and one I suggest for everyone.  His religion is spiritual and does not include a formal “house of worship”.

    Discarding all details of religions might not be wise.  As a reader-student, what do you see valuable and worthy of retention from the major religions?  Retaining the religions for an understanding of evolutionary and revelatory progress would be a valuable history record, even if summarized.  The watchword of the Universe is progress and it seems good to help people see this progress and desire it in their hearts.  Jesus took the cream of the old and used it to help people see his new and better way.

    Recall the first two sentences in the Foreword.  We all need time to help dissolve confusion.

     

14. S

    SabinatuBlocked
    Sep 28, 2015, 9:26 PM

    @Midi – you asked, “What would a spiritual cult look like?”

    LOL – it would not “look” like anything material

    @Mark – you wrote, “His religion is spiritual and does not include a formal “house of worship”.”

    Where does Jesus forbid the building of a “house of worship”?! TUB gives a replete history of how religion – a human MIND endowment – served to inspire many developments in “science” and home making and architecture. All previous epochal revelations contributed to the elevation of the material aspects of a “house of worship”. Please clarify. Thanks.

    
    @Chuck – you opined, “…No preachers/priests… Wait, we’d have to have someone to perform weddings and funerals… We’d also have to develop our own training schools… Just a thought. Oh well. It was an idea….”

    God’s Plan for humanity – origin, purpose, destiny – did include MATERIAL uplifts – they are called “Material Sons and Daughters” for a reason, no? Recording births, marriages, deaths are secular activities involving demographic facts – the “material” aspects of life. You get nifty info like this about the quantity of life that is open to “religious” interpretations about quality of life in the NOW:

    http://toprightnewscom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/charts-obama.jpg

15. C

    chucksmith1982Participant
    Sep 29, 2015, 1:54 AM

    I’m going to kill two birds with one stone here.First, I didn’t mean discard all religions in the sense that they should be ignored. I agree that they should be retained buy the readership for historical purposes. What I meant was that we should discard them as, for example, Christians don’t live buy the old testament. They view it as a historical record, for the most part… even if they hold it to be divinely inspired. They learn from it, but they do not live by it’s laws.

    As for establishing a material religion, a urantia church if you will, it would serve the same purpose as a Christian church does now.. A place where people of like minded beliefs can physically gather, perhaps on a weekly basis, for worship, study, and fellowship, much as other religious faiths do at their places of worship. As for a Urantia church building, I don’t think we’re quite that big, but perhaps home churches… The only problem is that for a lot of us, we are not within reasonable driving distance of each other. Right now the only Urantia church, and I use that term here deliberately as I’ve seen it online in describing this particular group, is Gabriel of Sadona’s group. That particular group is not held in high regard buy most ub students. Do we really want groups like that to be the face of the ub movement? Any time a seeker of truth researches the ub movement, they come across groups like that and there is no one to oppose/correct them, not on an organizational scale. And they may not know anyone who is an ub reader. Am I proposing an authoritarian movement? One like most, if not all, religious movements? No, I am not. What I am proposing is as I described above, a place/society/organazation, like a church for example,  with physical locations specifically set aside where we are free to openly and fully share our beliefs with other like minded believers.

16. V

    VernParticipant
    Sep 29, 2015, 2:18 AM

    Sabinatu wrote:  Having the United Midwayers present a eye witness account as Part IV is a courageous move…

    Hi Sab, this is a very interesting point you raise. Jesus paid very close attention to not leaving any written record of his life. It makes sense that he wanted to maximise personal contact and have all those souls saved for the kingdom who would then act as leaven to grow in spirit, pass on his message of salvation one generation to the next, person-to-person, face-to face.

    Now 2,000+ years on, the United Miwayers have gifted us with the truthful account, the first-hand record of Jesus’ Life and Teachings to set the record straight.

    Consider the significance of this?

    For all things there is a season. The time is ripe for this written record to correct the accumulated errors of the centuries, with clarifying light of truth.

    I well understand that there are those still who love not the truth, and will attempt to thwart it, distort and twist it. However, it is as futile as attempting to stop the incoming tide on a full moon.

    Michael is sovereign of Nebadon and his message to the planet of his final bestowal experience will not be denied. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad at the good news of eternal destiny freely given to whosoever will accept it.
17. V

    VernParticipant
    Sep 29, 2015, 3:25 AM

    chucksmith1982 wrote:  Vern, the only problem is we can’t agree on why he came in the first place.

    Why not?

    Spirit unity is the flavour of brotherhood. We don’t have to think alike to be spiritually alike. Surely you and I accept the fact we have the same creator parent? Qualifies us members of the same universe family who can have a personal relationship with the Father and with each other.

    It is a glorification of the uniqueness of personality that we differ. It matters little what differences we may have on details of interpretation as to what is personally significant, as long as our values match when it comes to the Father—focus of our innermost heart’s desire—core of our faith.

    It is my conviction, though the ways of the world manifest the exact opposite, that we have come to the end of inequality and the flawed construct by those who would perpetuate immoral behaviour through forceful means. Violation of a another person to gain unholy advantage over them is a sin no longer to be tolerated. I view the atonement doctrine in such a way. The priests should cease peddling falsehood if they want to change the downward trajectory of Christianity.

    Armed with truth we are now equipped with spiritual weapons sufficient to conquer the world. If the church will not change, the spiritually motivated populace will render the church irrelevant.

    Pentecost, with its spiritual endowment, was designed forever to loose the religion of the Master from all dependence upon physical force; the teachers of this new religion are now equipped with spiritual weapons. They are to go out to conquer the world with unfailing forgiveness, matchless good will, and abounding love. They are equipped to overcome evil with good, to vanquish hate by love, to destroy fear with a courageous and living faith in truth. Jesus had already taught his followers that his religion was never passive; always were his disciples to be active and positive in their ministry of mercy and in their manifestations of love. No longer did these believers look upon Yahweh as “the Lord of Hosts.” They now regarded the eternal Deity as the “God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.” They made that progress, at least, even if they did in some measure fail fully to grasp the truth that God is also the spiritual Father of every individual.  ^{[Paper 194:3.11, page 2064:3]}

    Jesus’ Father is also our Father. The power of this ennobling fact is sufficient to sustain each believer through every challenge with the sublime power to forgive personal injuries and keep sweet in the midst of the gravest injustice. This is the secret of a better civilization—overcoming evil with good.

    Pentecost endowed mortal man with the power to forgive personal injuries, to keep sweet in the midst of the gravest injustice, to remain unmoved in the face of appalling danger, and to challenge the evils of hate and anger by the fearless acts of love and forbearance. Urantia has passed through the ravages of great and destructive wars in its history. All participants in these terrible struggles met with defeat. There was but one victor; there was only one who came out of these embittered struggles with an enhanced reputation — that was Jesus of Nazareth and his gospel of overcoming evil with good. The secret of a better civilization is bound up in the Master’s teachings of the brotherhood of man, the good will of love and mutual trust.  ^{[Paper 194:3.12, page  2064:4]}

    Once religion was exemplified by man seeking for God, now we witness man still searching for God, with the augmented spectacle of God also seeking for man and finding him.

    Up to Pentecost, religion had revealed only man seeking for God; since Pentecost, man is still searching for God, but there shines out over the world the spectacle of God also seeking for man and sending his spirit to dwell within him when he has found him. ^{[Paper 194:3.13, page  2065:1]}

    The dominance of religion by an exclusively male enclave is in its terminal stages. Christianity must become inclusive of women as equals with men, in spirit and in fact. The monopoly of ministry of religious service by men is inconsistent with the spirit of equality.

    Before the teachings of Jesus which culminated in Pentecost, women had little or no spiritual standing in the tenets of the older religions. After Pentecost, in the brotherhood of the kingdom woman stood before God on an equality with man. Among the one hundred and twenty who received this special visitation of the spirit were many of the women disciples, and they shared these blessings equally with the men believers. No longer can man presume to monopolize the ministry of religious service.… ^{[Paper 194:3.14, page  2065:2]}

18. V

    VernParticipant
    Sep 29, 2015, 6:47 AM

    MidiChlorian wrote:  The only ideals susceptible of human attainment are the divine realities of the infinite values resident in the spiritual fact of the eternal God.

    Hi Midi, the spiritual quest is a personal experience only constrained by the depth of individual commitment—freewill choosing. “When you once begin to find God in your soul, presently you will begin to discover him in other men’s souls and eventually in all the creatures and creations of a mighty universe” discovery based upon having the desire to contemplate such eternal realities in the first place.

    But what chance does

    the Father have to appear as a God

    of supreme loyalties and divine ideals

    in the souls of men who

    give little or no time to

    the thoughtful contemplation

    of such eternal realities?
    

     

    ^{[Paper 155:6.13, page 1733:1]}

19. C

    chucksmith1982Participant
    Sep 29, 2015, 8:22 AM

    Vern, I was using the we in the broadest possible sence, humanity. A Christian will not fellowship with an openly urantia book reader without trying to convert him to his religion. It seems as if every religion has their own view of Jesus. We have ours, the Christians have theirs, the Muslims have theirs… And no one is willing to say lets’ just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

    Religions are not willing to say that we all worship the same god in different forms because they are all to busy saying I am better than you are and I’m the truth and your not. It’d be nice if they would though.

20. V

    VernParticipant
    Sep 29, 2015, 10:19 AM

    chucksmith1982 wrote:  Religions are not willing to say that we all worship the same god…

    Hi chuck, this is a sad situation where intelligent men and women are allowing themselves to be betrayed into sacrificing the exciting adventure of finding God for themselves by acquiescence to being held by the straight-jacket of fear-based primitive anthropomorphic deity concepts.

    It is well to heed the lessons to be gained in reviewing the religions of tradition. Until childlike superstitions can be overcome with reason, large numbers of men and women will continue to show a personal preference for those religions of authority which require only intellectual assent.

    Until the races become highly intelligent and more fully civilized, there will persist many of those childlike and superstitious ceremonies which are so characteristic of the evolutionary religious practices of primitive and backward peoples. Until the human race progresses to the level of a higher and more general recognition of the realities of spiritual experience, large numbers of men and women will continue to show a personal preference for those religions of authority which require only intellectual assent, in contrast to the religion of the spirit, which entails active participation of mind and soul in the faith adventure of grappling with the rigorous realities of progressive human experience.  ^{[Paper155:5.8, page 1729:3]}

    Traditional religions of authority are a refuge which require minimal reflective thought to gain spiritual succor.

    The acceptance of the traditional religions of authority presents the easy way out for man’s urge to seek satisfaction for the longings of his spiritual nature. The settled, crystallized, and established religions of authority afford a ready refuge to which the distracted and distraught soul of man may flee when harassed by fear and tormented by uncertainty. Such a religion requires of its devotees, as the price to be paid for its satisfactions and assurances, only a passive and purely intellectual assent. ^{[Paper155:5.9, page 1729:4]}

    Because there are so many types of people in the world and many eligions, there will for some time to come still, live on earth those timid, fearful, and hesitant individuals who will prefer thus to secure their religious consolations.

    And for a long time there will live on earth those timid, fearful, and hesitant individuals who will prefer thus to secure their religious consolations, even though, in so casting their lot with the religions of authority, they compromise the sovereignty of personality, debase the dignity of self-respect, and utterly surrender the right to participate in that most thrilling and inspiring of all possible human experiences: the personal quest for truth, the exhilaration of facing the perils of intellectual discovery, the determination to explore the realities of personal religious experience, the supreme satisfaction of experiencing the personal triumph of the actual realization of the victory of spiritual faith over intellectual doubt as it is honestly won in the supreme adventure of all human existence — man seeking God, for himself and as himself, and finding him.  ^{[Paper155:5.10, page 1729:5]}

    The religion of the mind requires little spiritual exertion, religion of the spirit requires intelligent effort, struggle, love, loyalty and progress.

    The religion of the spirit means effort, struggle, conflict, faith, determination, love, loyalty, and progress. The religion of the mind — the theology of authority — requires little or none of these exertions from its formal believers. Tradition is a safe refuge and an easy path for those fearful and halfhearted souls who instinctively shun the spirit struggles and mental uncertainties associated with those faith voyages of daring adventure out upon the high seas of unexplored truth in search for the farther shores of spiritual realities as they may be discovered by the progressive human mind and experienced by the evolving human soul.  ^{[Paper155:5.11, page 1729:6]}

    The religion of Jesus is a religion of dynamic love which yields fruits of the spirit. Requires courage to go where truth leads.

    And Jesus went on to say: “At Jerusalem the religious leaders have formulated the various doctrines of their traditional teachers and the prophets of other days into an established system of intellectual beliefs, a religion of authority. The appeal of all such religions is largely to the mind. And now are we about to enter upon a deadly conflict with such a religion since we will so shortly begin the bold proclamation of a new religion — a religion which is not a religion in the present-day meaning of that word, a religion that makes its chief appeal to the divine spirit of my Father which resides in the mind of man; a religion which shall derive its authority from the fruits of its acceptance that will so certainly appear in the personal experience of all who really and truly become believers in the truths of this higher spiritual communion.”  ^{[Paper 155:5.12, page 1729:7]}
    

    The challenge of the ages is to stir Christianity out of its torpor into the invigorating energy of spiritual adventure.

    If the Christian church would only dare to espouse the Master’s program, thousands of apparently indifferent youths would rush forward to enlist in such a spiritual undertaking, and they would not hesitate to go all the way through with this great adventure.  ^{[Paper 195:10.10, page 2085:2]}

Reply on the current forum