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RESURRECTION HALL – Redux

151 posts · 13 participants · started Sep 9, 2016, 8:29 AM

BonitaParticipant
Sep 30, 2016, 1:11 PM

Rick Warren wrote:

I don’t think it is implausible that Kala and Saro can obtain a copy of the UB, from the Satania System library! Why wouldn’t a copy, or a download equivalent, be there?

Along with every other written revelation in the universe. TUB is a big deal for us but I don’t think it rises to the level of the Fourth Epochal Revelation in significance to the rest of the local universe. They might also want to see what is written from the times of Melchizedek, maybe meet him in person.

I had a dream a long time ago in which I visited a Melchizedek school and met one of them. It was one of those dreams that I can never forget. It’s funny, I’ve gone through periods of my life where I’ve recorded dreams just to see if there was anything there (haven’t done so in quite a while though), and when I go back and read about those dreams I don’t remember having them at all. But this dream about the Melchizedek school I remember vividly and I had it about 14 years ago. I remember every single detail. As it turns out, there was a Melchizedek teacher who was about to begin a class based on something he indicated to me was in TUB. I didn’t stay for the class because I was being shown around by the dean of the school and I was too busy asking her really stupid questions like where do people sleep (it was a residential school). I left with the notion that it was a school of life. Everything taught was smoothly integrated into life. They weren’t teaching head knowledge, they were teaching life knowledge. That made a huge impact on my psyche, for some reason. Maybe that’s why I remember the dream so vividly.

But anyway, I’m not sure book knowledge is at the center of the morontia experience. Perhaps Kala and Saro’s foggy memories of running into some of this stuff before becomes a burning curiosity for them and they’re sent to the library to read the book to satisfy their curiosity. But I’m sure they will be humbled by discovering that books from other planets are also there and some might be even more advanced, beyond their capacity to understand (at the moment at least).

By the way, are Kala and Saro wearing shoes? Do their feet touch the ground? Every time I dream about the angels coming to take me to heaven they won’t let me take my shoes. And now that I think about it, I’m pretty sure I float the whole time I’m there, maybe because I don’t have a morontia body and have to be carried around in some way, don’t know. I love those dreams. Such fun. Sorry for the diversion. My ideas about the next life are a bit different. But I love the banquet scene. All my dreams about heaven are social events of one form or another. Lots of people, lots of things to see and do, lots of new problems to solve. Very exciting stuff.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Sep 30, 2016, 1:45 PM

Gene wrote:

I did make their memories a little hazy, at first. Then they had a visit with family members who’ve been on Mansonia a while, who helped them piece together a picture of their former life….Also, you have given me an idea. I don’t think it is implausible that Kala and Saro can obtain a copy of the UB, from the Satania System library! Why wouldn’t a copy, or a download equivalent, be there? well the 4th is certainly there otherwise it would not have been revealed to us in such beautiful detail. or do you think it’s just stuck in the memories of the revealators??

Hmm, good question….the way the authors talk about record keeping of every kind, even beings who are recorders, Bonita is probably right, every book or thought of any value is stored in the System’s libraries.

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Sep 30, 2016, 2:02 PM

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote:

I don’t think it is implausible that Kala and Saro can obtain a copy of the UB, from the Satania System library! Why wouldn’t a copy, or a download equivalent, be there?

Along with every other written revelation in the universe. TUB is a big deal for us but I don’t think it rises to the level of the Fourth Epochal Revelation in significance to the rest of the local universe.

No, but that doesn’t mean they can’t view a copy.

They might also want to see what is written from the times of Melchizedek, maybe meet him in person.

A Mel is welcoming them between the next banquet courses.

I had a dream a long time ago in which I visited a Melchizedek school and met one of them. It was one of those dreams that I can never forget. It’s funny, I’ve gone through periods of my life where I’ve recorded dreams just to see if there was anything there (haven’t done so in quite a while though), and when I go back and read about those dreams I don’t remember having them at all. But this dream about the Melchizedek school I remember vividly and I had it about 14 years ago. I remember every single detail. As it turns out, there was a Melchizedek teacher who was about to begin a class based on something he indicated to me was in TUB. I didn’t stay for the class because I was being shown around by the dean of the school and I was too busy asking her really stupid questions like where do people sleep (it was a residential school). I left with the notion that it was a school of life. Everything taught was smoothly integrated into life. They weren’t teaching head knowledge, they were teaching life knowledge. That made a huge impact on my psyche, for some reason. Maybe that’s why I remember the dream so vividly.

That’s a hoot, thanks for sharing it.

But anyway, I’m not sure book knowledge is at the center of the morontia experience. Perhaps Kala and Saro’s foggy memories of running into some of this stuff before becomes a burning curiosity for them and they’re sent to the library to read the book to satisfy their curiosity. But I’m sure they will be humbled by discovering that books from other planets are also there and some might be even more advanced, beyond their capacity to understand (at the moment at least).

Absolutely, their ten days are still ahead, much to explore on M1.

By the way, are Kala and Saro wearing shoes?

DANG! How could I forget their shoes? Will have to insert it in the final draft.

Do their feet touch the ground?

Of course, not sure about the angels.

Every time I dream about the angels coming to take me to heaven they won’t let me take my shoes. And now that I think about it, I’m pretty sure I float the whole time I’m there, maybe because I don’t have a morontia body and have to be carried around in some way, don’t know. I love those dreams. Such fun. Sorry for the diversion.

No, please, divert as you are led!

My ideas about the next life are a bit different.

They are, best I can tell. You seem to have it more spirit than physical, more ethereal than solid. No?

But I love the banquet scene.

Just figured there’s bound to be a welcoming befitting the occasion.

All my dreams about heaven are social events of one form or another. Lots of people, lots of things to see and do, lots of new problems to solve. Very exciting stuff.

INDEED!

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Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Sep 30, 2016, 2:41 PM

Rick Warren wrote:

They are, best I can tell. You seem to have it more spirit than physical, more ethereal than solid. No?

No, not at all. People definitely have forms, bodies and there’s nothing ethereal about them, I just never noticed feet actually in contact with the ground. Here’s the thing, my experiences with heaven are dream experiences, and we all know that dreams are mostly screwed up.

But since it’s okay to divert, I’ll share another dream. My best friend and companion since my divorce passed away in ’08. He was a new TUB reader so we talked about the afterlife from time to time. At one time I told him that if he predeceased me I wanted to know if he made it or not, and if it’s real. He and I liked to garden and we had been planting flowers specifically to attract humming birds. For 8 years we never saw a one, so I said, half jokingly, if you make it to heaven send me a humming bird. We both knew that messages can’t be sent from heaven, so I told him to have an angel send it, maybe that would get around the rules. We laughed it off. Well, the son-of-a-gun up and died a few days before Thanksgiving, a time when the garden was dormant.

Come early June I was busy setting up a large garden party for my son’s college graduation. My brother and his wife came in from out of town a few days early to help me with the set up. We were out on the patio talking one sunny afternoon when something bumped into my straw hat. My brother and sister-in-law went nuts yelling, “Did you see that? A humming bird just flew at your head!” I didn’t see it, but I felt it. I calmly replied, “Oh, that’s just Cliff, but inside I was shaking.” I think he found a way around the rule, just guessing at that. I didn’t see the message, but it came nonetheless.

That night I had a weird dream. It was a quick dream, just a flash but definitely memorable. I saw a body sliding out of a tube. It looked to me almost like sausage being made, not all that appealing really. The body was very interesting and hard to describe. It had arms and legs and a torso, no genitalia and what looked like skin but obviously was not. The body was made up of one single substance in and out, like solid jello . . . like I said, hard to describe. The color was pinkish, like pig skin, but exceptionally smooth, completely hairless and very, very clean looking. It had an inner glow, almost opalescent, which made it look a little wet . . . again, hard to describe. Anyway, it was a full adult size body, plump, pink and pleasant. I recognized Cliff and thought, whoa! That is not at all what I expected our heavenly bodies to look like. I thought men would look like Adonis and women like Botticelli’s Venus. I was really hoping for Venus (no shoes) . . . Well anyway, it was over in a jiffy and the message was simple, Cliff had been reborn. At least that’s what I wanted to believe.

I have no doubt he made it, but it could all be my imagination too. I could have read into the humming bird event and the dream could have been my mind manufacturing my wish fulfillment. That is entirely possible and probably likely. But I want to believe that he’s there and that the body he got is a reflection of the character he was in this life, a plump and pleasant old guy with most of his hair gone . . . anyway, I digress.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Oct 1, 2016, 9:36 AM

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote:

They are, best I can tell. You seem to have it more spirit than physical, more ethereal than solid. No?

No, not at all. People definitely have forms, bodies and there’s nothing ethereal about them, I just never noticed feet actually in contact with the ground. Here’s the thing, my experiences with heaven are dream experiences, and we all know that dreams are mostly screwed up. But since it’s okay to divert, I’ll share another dream. My best friend and companion since my divorce passed away in ’08. He was a new TUB reader so we talked about the afterlife from time to time. At one time I told him that if he predeceased me I wanted to know if he made it or not, and if it’s real. He and I liked to garden and we had been planting flowers specifically to attract humming birds. For 8 years we never saw a one, so I said, half jokingly, if you make it to heaven send me a humming bird. We both knew that messages can’t be sent from heaven, so I told him to have an angel send it, maybe that would get around the rules. We laughed it off. Well, the son-of-a-gun up and died a few days before Thanksgiving, a time when the garden was dormant. Come early June I was busy setting up a large garden party for my son’s college graduation. My brother and his wife came in from out of town a few days early to help me with the set up. We were out on the patio talking one sunny afternoon when something bumped into my straw hat. My brother and sister-in-law went nuts yelling, “Did you see that? A humming bird just flew at your head!” I didn’t see it, but I felt it. I calmly replied, “Oh, that’s just Cliff, but inside I was shaking.” I think he found a way around the rule, just guessing at that. I didn’t see the message, but it came nonetheless. That night I had a weird dream. It was a quick dream, just a flash but definitely memorable. I saw a body sliding out of a tube. It looked to me almost like sausage being made, not all that appealing really. The body was very interesting and hard to describe. It had arms and legs and a torso, no genitalia and what looked like skin but obviously was not. The body was made up of one single substance in and out, like solid jello . . . like I said, hard to describe. The color was pinkish, like pig skin, but exceptionally smooth, completely hairless and very, very clean looking. It had an inner glow, almost opalescent, which made it look a little wet . . . again, hard to describe. Anyway, it was a full adult size body, plump, pink and pleasant. I recognized Cliff and thought, whoa! That is not at all what I expected our heavenly bodies to look like. I thought men would look like Adonis and women like Botticelli’s Venus. I was really hoping for Venus (no shoes) . . . Well anyway, it was over in a jiffy and the message was simple, Cliff had been reborn. At least that’s what I wanted to believe. I have no doubt he made it, but it could all be my imagination too. I could have read into the humming bird event and the dream could have been my mind manufacturing my wish fulfillment. That is entirely possible and probably likely. But I want to believe that he’s there and that the body he got is a reflection of the character he was in this life, a plump and pleasant old guy with most of his hair gone . . . anyway, I digress.

Much appreciate the attempts at descriptions, Bonita. I’m finding that’s the fiction writers’ biggest challenge. The inner glow, clean, tube womb, solid jello, one substance, all resonated somehow. Great friendships, insightful dreams and promises of resurrection, the stuff the Supreme is made of! As the gardeners say, “Lettuce grow”.

Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Oct 1, 2016, 1:30 PM
Thanks for engaging my fantasies Rick. You’re right, fiction writer’s have their hurdles which is why I stopped trying to write fiction. I’m terrible at it. The first thing I was taught by my coach was to put the entire story you want to write into one sentence which highlights your message. To me that meant that you had to have the story already written in your head. I could never get to the end of anything in my head. My brain won’t think like that, it doesn’t accept endings for some reason. I could dream up thousands of beginnings, but never an ending to a story. Which is also why I’m a terrible story teller, I go on and on and on until people pull their hair out. Speaking of endings, have you thought about how you’re going to end your story? Seems like you could make this a sequel with lots of beginnings and endings.

I once started a story about a woman who takes off to drive cross country and finds herself lost in the badlands of South Dakota where she comes across a strange woodsman. Turns out he’s a Melchizedek. They spend days in the woods surviving while he tells her wonderful stories about how the earth was born, how divine beings once lived here, the true devil story and the plan for the future, the real story from TUB, simplified and not using any TUB language. When she’s found, of course, everyone thinks she went crazy or that she had some kind of near death experience, but the story gets told. Some people are intrigued, some are outraged but most ignore her because the woodsman is never found, not until an inquisitive news reporter goes to the site where they discovered her car and he suddenly runs into the woodsman himself. And before you know it, he’s hearing all about the many other inhabited worlds and how humans came to be on this planet, how evolution works and all sorts of new information. I could never find an ending to that story either though. I probably would keep going on and on until Jesus’ second coming. Never know when to shut up . . .
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Oct 1, 2016, 1:51 PM

Bonita wrote:

Thanks for engaging my fantasies Rick.

Likewise.

You’re right, fiction writer’s have their hurdles which is why I stopped trying to write fiction. I’m terrible at it. The first thing I was taught by my coach was to put the entire story you want to write into one sentence which highlights your message. To me that meant that you had to have the story already written in your head. I could never get to the end of anything in my head. My brain won’t think like that, it doesn’t accept endings for some reason. I could dream up thousands of beginnings, but never an ending to a story. Which is also why I’m a terrible story teller, I go on and on and on until people pull their hair out. Speaking of endings, have you thought about how you’re going to end your story? Seems like you could make this a sequel with lots of beginnings and endings.

Indeed. The characters could go all the way to Paradise in a series of long tales. But, it seems right to have this story end after they have ascended all 7 mansions, maybe at their fusion party on Jerusem. Should be enough for a book, and then see if there are other tales that need to be told, if interest holds, we’ll see. The Adam and Eve story as it is in UB would make fine backbone for a fiction, wouldn’t it?!

I once started a story about a woman who takes off to drive cross country and finds herself lost in the badlands of South Dakota where she comes across a strange woodsman. Turns out he’s a Melchizedek. They spend days in the woods surviving while he tells her wonderful stories about how the earth was born, how divine beings once lived here, the true devil story and the plan for the future, the real story from TUB, simplified and not using any TUB language. When she’s found, of course, everyone thinks she went crazy or that she had some kind of near death experience, but the story gets told. Some people are intrigued, some are outraged but most ignore her because the woodsman is never found, not until an inquisitive news reporter goes to the site where they discovered her car and he suddenly runs into the woodsman himself. And before you know it, he’s hearing all about the many other inhabited worlds and how humans came to be on this planet, how evolution works and all sorts of new information. I could never find an ending to that story either though. I probably would keep going on and on until Jesus’ second coming. Never know when to shut up . . .

I like the story line! Maybe end it when Mel vanishes and the protagonist departs in ‘chariots of fire’ ;~)

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Richard E Warren
Nigel NunnParticipant
Oct 5, 2016, 8:53 PM
Rick — truly beautiful. And good!

PS: on page 14, they wonder “what sort of cello…” Here’s a taste. Strings attached, so to speak, but no body. Make sure you have headphones and rich audio gear before proceeding. (For those “whose time units are short” (1295.6, 118:1.6), zip ahead to time 7:30. Or for those who really can’t wait, 16:06).

Possible edits:

[p16:4] “completely assured of their importance to the masters and workers of this world.”
[p16:4] “completely assured of their importance to both the workers and supervisors of this world.”

[16, last para] who condescended to walk among them
[16, last para] who graciously walked among them

[p18:1] “and separated, moving singly around the hall.” (repeated twice).

Well done!

Nigel
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Oct 5, 2016, 9:18 PM

Nigel Nunn wrote:

Rick — truly beautiful. And good! PS: on page 14, they wonder “what sort of cello…” Here’s a taste. Strings attached, so to speak, but no body. Make sure you have headphones and rich audio gear before proceeding. (For those “whose time units are short” (1295.6, 118:1.6), zip ahead to time 7:30. Or for those who really can’t wait, 16:06). Possible edits: [p16:4] “completely assured of their importance to the masters and workers of this world.” [p16:4] “completely assured of their importance to both the workers and supervisors of this world.” [16, last para] who condescended to walk among them [16, last para] who graciously walked among them [p18:1] “and separated, moving singly around the hall.” (repeated twice). Well done! Nigel

Thanks sooo much, Nigel. Appreciate the encouraging words, outrageously excellent cello music, and the edit suggestions. The edits can be added to the master draft, but not the Forum after 3 days. :(

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Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Oct 6, 2016, 3:01 PM
I didn’t know we were editing you work too Rick. There are some spelling errors I noted. I’m sure you’ll flush them all out at some time down the road. Nice job.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Oct 6, 2016, 3:34 PM

Bonita wrote:

I didn’t know we were editing you work too Rick. There are some spelling errors I noted. I’m sure you’ll flush them all out at some time down the road. Nice job.

Thanks.

I hate typos! But yeah, will flush them eventually.

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Oct 7, 2016, 12:08 PM
PS. Forum readers should receive fair warning, that when the pages are posted each morning (about 6 AM central daylight time, US), I usually spend an hour or so correcting typos and other errata. Sometimes later that day too, even the next day changes are sometimes made. Strange to report I can’t seem to see the mistakes without posting first, even then I miss some. My apologies, and please don’t hesitate to point out problems, grammatical or contextual. Thanks.

Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Oct 7, 2016, 12:52 PM

Rick Warren wrote:

Strange to report I can’t seem to see the mistakes without posting first, even then I miss some.

The same thing happens to me Rick. I wish there was a way to view a draft before actually submitting. That is when I often see my mistakes, but even then my eyes often see what I meant to write, rather than what I actually wrote. It’s the nature of the beast.

That being said, I have to wonder why you think morontia beings sleep and dream. Dreaming is only necessary when there are unconscious levels of the psyche which need exercise. Humans have two unconscious levels, the subconscious and the superconscious, and these two levels are active during sleep when the conscious mind gets out of the way. There is nothing written in TUB, or at least I can’t find anything written in TUB, that suggests the persistence of the subconscious or superconscious levels of mind in the morontia state. Also, we know that the midwayers, whom I believe are low level morontia beings, do not sleep, therefore do not dream. I agree that morontia beings require rest, play, reversion or recreation, but I am not aware that they require sleep except during translation. And if they do not sleep, they do not dream. Dreaming serves a purpose during the life in the flesh because here we are dual beings with dual levels of existence, often at odds with one another. What purpose would dreaming serve on the mansion worlds?
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Oct 7, 2016, 1:38 PM

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote:

Strange to report I can’t seem to see the mistakes without posting first, even then I miss some.

The same thing happens to me Rick. I wish there was a way to view a draft before actually submitting. That is when I often see my mistakes, but even then my eyes often see what I meant to write, rather than what I actually wrote. It’s the nature of the beast.

Yep, guess we’ll have to get editors or suffer the terrible tyranny of typos.

That being said, I have to wonder why you think morontia beings sleep and dream. Dreaming is only necessary when there are unconscious levels of the psyche which need exercise. Humans have two unconscious levels, the subconscious and the superconscious, and these two levels are active during sleep when the conscious mind gets out of the way. There is nothing written in TUB, or at least I can’t find anything written in TUB, that suggests the persistence of the subconscious or superconscious levels of mind in the morontia state. Also, we know that the midwayers, whom I believe are low level morontia beings, do not sleep, therefore do not dream. I agree that morontia beings require rest, play, reversion or recreation, but I am not aware that they require sleep except during translation. And if they do not sleep, they do not dream. Dreaming serves a purpose during the life in the flesh because here we are dual beings with dual levels of existence, often at odds with one another. What purpose would dreaming serve on the mansion worlds?

A good point, Bonita. When the authors used the word rest I did assume sleep. But this quote, I think, could be interpreted as morontia sleep.

…Though you have morontia bodies, you continue, through all seven of these worlds, to eat, drink, and rest.

47:4:6

As for dreaming, the resurrectees’ minds actually do have a small base of experience for sub and superconscious emanations, the previous day and a half full of most extraordinary experience. From which, one might conjecture, an up-rush of powerful, fresh, coalescing memories could foment a visual presentation in their resting minds, brand new minds mind you, that are attempting to integrate these profound, once in a universe career experiences. Indeed, even the Adjuster could be involved.

I suspect, and here again I lean on the, nothing-lost-nothing-gained quotes, that dreams will still pervade our periods of rest. At least in the beginning.

There are these beings who show other beings how to best rest!

...The teachers of rest. Divine rest is associated with the technique of spiritual-energy intake. Morontia and spirit energy must be replenished just as certainly as physical energy, but not for the same reasons. I am, perforce, compelled to employ crude illustrations in my attempts to enlighten you; nevertheless, we of the spirit world must stop our regular activities periodically and betake ourselves to suitable places of rendezvous where we enter the divine rest and thus recuperate our depleting energies. 44:5:8

.

Not sure if ‘suitable places’ means reclining.

.

The authors say we are closer to sanobim and cherubim than midwayers. No where do I find their rest habits.

Also, I can find nothing that says we won’t dream as mansonians, you?

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Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Oct 7, 2016, 2:28 PM
Rick Warren wrote: The authors say we are closer to sanobim and cherubim than midwayers. No where do I find their rest habits.

As far as I understand it, and as indicated in the next two quotes, the midwayers are lower than the angels and thus, closer to us.

38:9.8 Primary midwayers resemble angels more than mortals; the secondary orders are much more like human beings.

38:9.9 The gap between the material and spiritual worlds is perfectly bridged by the serial association of mortal man, secondary midwayer, primary midwayer, morontia cherubim, mid-phase cherubim, and seraphim.

The midwayers do not sleep. No sleep, no dreams. I suppose they could daydream, but that’s a different animal altogether.

77:8.3 Both orders are nonmaterial beings as regards nutrition and energy intake, but they partake of many human traits and are able to enjoy and follow your humor as well as your worship. When attached to mortals, they enter into the spirit of human work, rest, and play. But midwayers do not sleep, neither do they possess powers of procreation. In a certain sense the secondary group are differentiated along the lines of maleness and femaleness, often being spoken of as “he” or “she.” They often work together in such pairs.

Rick Warren wrote:A good point, Bonita. When the authors used the word rest I did assume sleep. But this quote, I think, could be interpreted as morontia sleep. …Though you have morontia bodies, you continue, through all seven of these worlds, to eat, drink, and rest. 47:4:6

I respectfully disagree. Rest is a form of conscious reversion, aka, play. Sleeping is not conscious, nor is it play. The purpose of rest is to recharge spiritual energies. Humans must recharge material electro-chemical energies and the brain requires sleep in order to do that. On the morontia level, there is no brain that needs recharging. It’s the spirit that needs recharging. It seems to me that your characters are being supercharged with all the activities they are partaking in. Why would they need to sleep? Perhaps they need time to coalesce their thoughts and consciously create rememberies.

25:7.2 Though you will have earnest and progressively difficult tasks to perform on the morontia training worlds of Nebadon, you will always be provided with regular seasons of rest and reversion. Throughout the journey to Paradise there will always be time for rest and spirit play; and in the career of light and life there is always time for worship and new achievement.

44:3.4 The play builders. Enormous edifices are utilized during the seasons of rest, what mortals would call recreation and, in a certain sense, play. Provision is made for a suitable setting for the reversion directors, the humorists of the morontia worlds, those transition spheres whereon takes place the training of ascendant beings but recently removed from the evolutionary planets. Even the higher spirits engage in a certain form of reminiscent humor during their periods of spiritual recharging.

I think it’s important to realize that even in the flesh, the soul does not sleep. The soul does not require sleep, because it is the mid-mind, it is morontial, just like the midwayers. On the mansion worlds our souls are part of our new minds and the only reason we are conscious of our souls is because of the presence of the Adjuster, who also doesn’t sleep. Therefore, the morontia mind would be actively conscious of the Adjuster making it unnecessary to have a superconscious. The mind would have no unconscious areas (subconscious or superconscious), making it always conscious (no sleep).

111:2.8 The midway creatures have long denominated this evolving soul of man the mid–mind in contradistinction to the lower or material mind and the higher or cosmic mind. This mid–mind is really a morontia phenomenon since it exists in the realm between the material and the spiritual.

111:3.2 During life the mortal will, the personality power of decision-choice, is resident in the material mind circuits; as terrestrial mortal growth proceeds, this self, with its priceless powers of choice, becomes increasingly identified with the emerging morontia-soul entity; after death and following the mansion world resurrection, the human personality is completely identified with the morontia self. The soul is thus the embryo of the future morontia vehicle of personality identity.

112:6.7 But the morontia soul, being superadjutant, does not retain self-consciousness without the Adjuster when deprived of the material-mind mechanism.

The morontia mind, which contains the soul, evolves too, but it evolves by directly contacting cosmic mind. I would assume this contact is conscious, therefore sleep would have little value in the evolution of mind, since sleep is unconscious.

112:6.6 The morontia mind must evolve by direct contact with cosmic mind, as this cosmic mind has been modified and translated by the creative source of local universe intellect — the Divine Minister.

Rick Warren wrote: Also, I can find nothing that says we won’t dream as mansonians, you?

So the absence of information gives you license? In my opinion TUB explains over and over again what rest is. In the next life sleep has other purposes. You have your sleeping survivors who are in some sort of suspended state, then there are also transit sleeps, translational sleeps and metamorphic sleeps, but I don’t think there is anything like human sleep after death. It makes no sense to me, knowing what I know about the mind and the soul.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Oct 7, 2016, 3:02 PM

Bonita wrote:

As far as I understand it, and as indicated in the next two quotes, the midwayers are lower than the angels and thus, closer to us.

Agreed, they are closer, but they are vastly different in certain ways. They can jet around a planet at the speed of light, as I recall. We can’t do that, even on Edentia:

... Edentia can be circumnavigated via these various water routes, though the chief channel of transportation is the atmosphere. Spirit beings would naturally travel above the surface of the sphere, while the morontia and material beings make use of material and semimaterial means to negotiate atmospheric passage…. 43:1:2

…Humans must recharge material electro-chemical energies and the brain requires sleep in order to do that. On the morontia level, there is no brain that needs recharging. It’s the spirit that needs recharging. It seems to me that your characters are being supercharged with all the activities they are partaking in. Why would they need to sleep? Perhaps they need time to coalesce their thoughts and consciously create rememberies.Perhaps.

25:7.2 Though you will have earnest and progressively difficult tasks to perform on the morontia training worlds of Nebadon, you will always be provided with regular seasons of rest and reversion. Throughout the journey to Paradise there will always be time for rest and spirit play; and in the career of light and life there is always time for worship and new achievement. 44:3.4 The play builders. Enormous edifices are utilized during the seasons of rest, what mortals would call recreation and, in a certain sense, play.

Disneyland?!?

Provision is made for a suitable setting for the reversion directors, the humorists of the morontia worlds, those transition spheres whereon takes place the training of ascendant beings but recently removed from the evolutionary planets. Even the higher spirits engage in a certain form of reminiscent humor during their periods of spiritual recharging.

I think it’s important to realize that even in the flesh, the soul does not sleep. But it does require rest.

The morontia mind, which contains the soul, evolves too, but it evolves by directly contacting cosmic mind.

And one can safely assume the evolution starts ‘right where we left off’.

I would assume this contact is conscious, therefore sleep would have little value in the evolution of mind, since sleep is unconscious.

I’m thinking even sleep patterns evolve.

So the absence of information gives you license?

No.

In my opinion TUB explains over and over again what rest is.

It does. But we are interpreting it differently, and we’ve bumped heads on this before. Your interpretation, to me, has us being much more advanced. Don’t the authors say more than once, ‘you start out there right where you left off’? That’s our starting point, evolution then takes over.

In the next life sleep has other purposes. You have your sleeping survivors who are in some sort of suspended state, then there are also transit sleeps, translational sleeps and metamorphic sleeps, but I don’t think there is anything like human sleep after death. It makes no sense to me, knowing what I know about the mind and the soul.

In deference, I will keep your critique in mind. In fact you are always in my writer’s mind, ‘will this pass muster with Bonita and the Forum?’. Thank you. Your advice and encouragement on the original RH story was very helpful.

Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Oct 7, 2016, 4:38 PM

Rick Warren wrote: Agreed, they are closer, but they are vastly different in certain ways. They can jet around a planet at the speed of light, as I recall. We can’t do that, even on Edentia:

Actually, midwayers can travel double the speed of light, angels can travel triple the speed of light and Solitary Messengers, I think, can go more than 4 million times the speed of light. The reason we don’t travel like that is because we have to be retooled on each level. The midwayers don’t have to be retooled because they stay on this planet, (despite the belief that they travel in space crafts where they busy themselves sending emails to a new apostolic team of planetary saviors.)

The way we travel on Edentia has nothing to do with how our minds and bodies recharge. Likewise, the way midwayers travel on earth has nothing to do with how their minds work or how they recharge, it has to do with their function on the planet, their ability to work with power directors and physical controllers. The midwayers have access to an undiscovered form of energy. Who knows what humans could do if they had access to this energy, just sayin’. I think you’re confusing function with substance, assuming that all morontia substances can perform the same functions. That’s just poppycock. Sorry.

29:4.14 The physical controllers are chiefly occupied in the adjustment of basic energies undiscovered on Urantia. These unknown energies are very essential to the interplanetary system of transport and to certain techniques of communication. When we lay lines of energy for the purpose of conveying sound equivalents or of extending vision, these undiscovered forms of energy are utilized by the living physical controllers and their associates. These same energies are also, on occasion, used by the midway creatures in their routine work.

38:9.8 The primary ministers can achieve liaison co-operation with both morontia- and spirit-energy controllers and mind circuiters. The secondary group can establish working connections only with the physical controllers and the material-circuit manipulators. But since each order of midwayer can establish perfect synchrony of contact with the other, either group is thereby able to achieve practical utilization of the entire energy gamut extending from the gross physical power of the material worlds up through the transition phases of universe energies to the higher spirit-reality forces of the celestial realms.

Rick Warren wrote: Your interpretation, to me, has us being much more advanced. Don’t the authors say more than once, ‘you start out there right where you left off’? That’s our starting point, evolution then takes over.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to start there where we leave off here. They are talking about the psychic circles. We start there in the same psychic circle we are in when we die. It has nothing to do with how our new bodies and minds work. The psychic circles are about soul growth and personality realization. Anyway, you are writing fiction, and as far as I am concerned, sleeping and dreaming on the mansion worlds is a superfiction. I can’t accept it.

Mind evolution on the morontia level has to do with the growth of meanings and values. If you want your characters to evolve, then you have to give them problems to solve. You have to give them huge disappointments and new learning opportunities. As I tried to explain before, learning on the mansion worlds is not classroom learning. It’s life learning. If I were writing the story, I would have these two characters separated. Clearly they have different deficiencies which require different learning environments. I would explore their pet evils, their character traits which need to be better aligned with reality. I would highlight their misconceptions and misunderstandings. I would put them in uncomfortable positions and give them service opportunities which challenge them. Sleeping and dreaming ain’t gonna cut it.

Rick Warren wrote: In deference, I will keep your critique in mind. In fact you are always in my writer’s mind, ‘will this pass muster with Bonita and the Forum?’. Thank you. Your advice and encouragement on the original RH story was very helpful.

So I live rent-free in your head huh? I’m sure there are many here who would consider that to be a severe level of suffering. All I can say is that sleeping and dreaming on the mansion worlds does not pass muster with me. Perhaps you can give them reflective time where they struggle to put all this new information and experience into perspective, a time when vague reminiscences of long gone times in the flesh when they struggled to comprehend something, times when they were urged to pray for answers. Those same urges continue in the next life. The beauty of being in heaven is that the Adjuster is much more accessible, as are the Divine Spirit and the Spirit of Truth. They are still present within the mind, but much more palpable and much more communicative.

Don’t forget meanings and values. Spiritual insight takes on new levels of consciousness. Morontia consciousness is comparable to soul consciousness here. Soul consciousness is dependent upon psychic circle progress. Certainly your characters, as third circlers, attained at least a basic level of soul consciousness while in the flesh. That is where they will start, breaking through that embryonic consciousness to full fledged morontia consciousness, even a cosmic consciousness. But it’s all about consciousness. Sleep is unconscious. Sleep doesn’t make you more conscious, it makes you more unconscious. It’s going the wrong way.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Oct 7, 2016, 6:03 PM

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote: Agreed, they are closer, but they are vastly different in certain ways. They can jet around a planet at the speed of light, as I recall. We can’t do that, even on Edentia:

Actually, midwayers can travel double the speed of light, angels can travel triple the speed of light and Solitary Messengers, I think, can go more than 4 million times the speed of light. The reason we don’t travel like that is because we have to be retooled on each level. The midwayers don’t have to be retooled because they stay on this planet, (despite the belief that they travel in space crafts where they busy themselves sending emails to a new apostolic team of planetary saviors.) The way we travel on Edentia has nothing to do with how our minds and bodies recharge. Likewise, the way midwayers travel on earth has nothing to do with how their minds work or how they recharge, it has to do with their function on the planet, their ability to work with power directors and physical controllers. The midwayers have access to an undiscovered form of energy. Who knows what humans could do if they had access to this energy, just sayin’. I think you’re confusing function with substance, assuming that all morontia substances can perform the same functions. That’s just poppycock. Sorry.

Hmm…we’ll have to disagree. But we don’t disagree that morontia substance can be manipulated all manner of ways.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to start there where we leave off here. They are talking about the psychic circles. We start there in the same psychic circle we are in when we die. It has nothing to do with how our new bodies and minds work. The psychic circles are about soul growth and personality realization. Anyway, you are writing fiction, and as far as I am concerned, sleeping and dreaming on the mansion worlds is a superfiction. I can’t accept it.

The way I see it, the morontia body, mind, soul are a unit and function as such. You have however convinced me to change the word sleep to rest.

Mind evolution on the morontia level has to do with the growth of meanings and values. If you want your characters to evolve, then you have to give them problems to solve. You have to give them huge disappointments and new learning opportunities. As I tried to explain before, learning on the mansion worlds is not classroom learning. It’s life learning.

This is just the beginning.

If I were writing the story, I would have these two characters separated. Clearly they have different deficiencies which require different learning environments.

It’s getting there.

I would explore their pet evils, their character traits which need to be better aligned with reality. I would highlight their misconceptions and misunderstandings. I would put them in uncomfortable positions and give them service opportunities which challenge them.

Please don’t rush the story.

Sleeping and dreaming ain’t gonna cut it.

Guess we’ll see. I’ll meet you in the Melchizedek sector, when you arrive ;)

Rick Warren wrote: In deference, I will keep your critique in mind. In fact you are always in my writer’s mind, ‘will this pass muster with Bonita and the Forum?’. Thank you. Your advice and encouragement on the original RH story was very helpful.

So I live rent-free in your head huh? I’m sure there are many here who would consider that to be a severe level of suffering.

How much should I charge?

All I can say is that sleeping and dreaming on the mansion worlds does not pass muster with me. Perhaps you can give them reflective time where they struggle to put all this new information and experience into perspective, a time when vague reminiscences of long gone times in the flesh when they struggled to comprehend something, times when they were urged to pray for answers.

We’ll get there.

Those same urges continue in the next life. The beauty of being in heaven is that the Adjuster is much more accessible, as are the Divine Spirit and the Spirit of Truth. They are still present within the mind, but much more palpable and much more communicative. Don’t forget meanings and values.

Never!

Spiritual insight takes on new levels of consciousness. Morontia consciousness is comparable to soul consciousness here. Soul consciousness is dependent upon psychic circle progress. Certainly your characters, as third circlers, attained at least a basic level of soul consciousness while in the flesh. That is where they will start, breaking through that embryonic consciousness to full fledged morontia consciousness, even a cosmic consciousness. But it’s all about consciousness. Sleep is unconscious. Sleep doesn’t make you more conscious, it makes you more unconscious. It’s going the wrong way.

Is your urge to write a UB based fiction piqued yet? Someone needs to do an Adam and Eve fiction that brings it to the people!

.

Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Oct 8, 2016, 1:40 PM

Rick Warren wrote:

Is your urge to write a UB based fiction piqued yet? Someone needs to do an Adam and Eve fiction that brings it to the people!

Oh God no!! I’ve spent decades trying to bring UB readers back into focus with reality, talk them down off their crazy fantasies. Then to write one of my own! That would be lunacy! Besides, I have trouble with fiction. I can’t write it and I have trouble reading it, I get bored very easily with fiction. I prefer to read historical pieces, biographies and autobiographies as well as informational books. My heart is not in fiction unless it’s a BBC costume drama, but that’s because of all the historical detail they’re so well known for.

So, are you writing for “the people”? Or is your audience TUB readers? I was under the impression that you were writing for TUB readers since you heavily invest in TUB language. This is where I get myself into trouble every time I start to write something TUB based. What’s my audience? Who do I direct it too? If it’s the “people”, then a lot of TUB language has to change or be delicately defined to fit the culture. Heck, even long time TUB readers may need to have terms defined. It wasn’t long ago that I had to point out to someone here that the Mystery Monitor and the Adjuster are one and the same thing. That’s something I never thought any TUB reader could possibly get confused, but there you have it. So where do you begin?? I really don’t know. Even my little treatise on the Holy Spirit is confusing to both TUB and non-TUB readers. I just had to give up on it. I write for myself now. Seems selfish, I know. But who reads this stuff really? As far as I can tell, almost no one. It’s just not worth all the effort, and it takes a lot of effort, as I’m sure you know.

If I were to undertake a writing for “the people”, I would immerse myself in the currently held beliefs of most people and embellish them in such a way that points toward revealed truth. For instance, my Melchizedek (or midwayer) in the woods theme would have to embrace Amerindian mythology. And since most of the early settlers were German and Scandinavian, I would also include their mythology. Tell the stories and make them modern by including revelation, give “the people” the story behind the story. It’s an art form, I think, and a huge undertaking. I’ve made false starts at it only to put it away thinking it’s a waste of time. Time is important, right? Don’t want to waste it.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Oct 8, 2016, 1:58 PM

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote:

Is your urge to write a UB based fiction piqued yet? Someone needs to do an Adam and Eve fiction that brings it to the people!

Oh God no!! I’ve spent decades trying to bring UB readers back into focus with reality, talk them down off their crazy fantasies. Then to write one of my own! That would be lunacy! Besides, I have trouble with fiction. I can’t write it and I have trouble reading it, I get bored very easily with fiction. I prefer to read historical pieces, biographies and autobiographies as well as informational books. My heart is not in fiction unless it’s a BBC costume drama, but that’s because of all the historical detail they’re so well known for.

Yeah, yeah, BBC. Especially their Shakespeare presentations.

So, are you writing for “the people”? Or is your audience TUB readers?

Readers. And I’m pleased at how much crossover the story is getting on Facebook. And that’s what I was hoping for, but didn’t really expect.

I was under the impression that you were writing for TUB readers since you heavily invest in TUB language. This is where I get myself into trouble every time I start to write something TUB based. What’s my audience? Who do I direct it too? If it’s the “people”, then a lot of TUB language has to change or be delicately defined to fit the culture. Heck, even long time TUB readers may need to have terms defined. It wasn’t long ago that I had to point out to someone here that the Mystery Monitor and the Adjuster are one and the same thing. That’s something I never thought any TUB reader could possibly get confused, but there you have it. So where do you begin?? I really don’t know. Even my little treatise on the Holy Spirit is confusing to both TUB and non-TUB readers. I just had to give up on it. I write for myself now. Seems selfish, I know. But who reads this stuff really? As far as I can tell, almost no one.

That’s the same feeling I got from writing on TB&G. Evidently people enjoy stories, as the preferred way of learning.

It’s just not worth all the effort, and it takes a lot of effort, as I’m sure you know. If I were to undertake a writing for “the people”, I would immerse myself in the currently held beliefs of most people and embellish them in such a way that points toward revealed truth. For instance, my Melchizedek (or midwayer) in the woods theme would have to embrace Amerindian mythology. And since most of the early settlers were German and Scandinavian, I would also include their mythology. Tell the stories and make them modern by including revelation, give “the people” the story behind the story. It’s an art form, I think, and a huge undertaking. I’ve made false starts at it only to put it away thinking it’s a waste of time. Time is important, right? Don’t want to waste it.

Right! Never mind

Richard E Warren

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