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"Resume their lives just where they left off when overtaken by death"

254 posts · 11 participants · started Aug 19, 2017, 7:09 PM

BonitaParticipant
Sep 9, 2017, 5:19 PM

Brooklyn_born wrote:

onita, in order to reflect, there has to be a receiving end. If you are on the receiving end, you are dependent then on the party reflecting to you. It is a two-way relationship as I told you before. I encourage you to consider the definition of the word reflection:

The quote does NOT say that the method by which Michael is conscious of all his Sons’ emotions and actions is part of the phenomenon of reflectivity. The quote DOES state that the method is part of the “ABSOLUTE DRAWING POWER OF THE ETERNAL SON”. This another name for spirit gravity circuit. The spirit gravity circuit is not utilized in reflectivity.

20:1.13 The Creator Sons seem to possess a spiritual endowment centering in their persons, which they control and which they can bestow, as did your own Creator Son when he poured out his spirit upon all mortal flesh on Urantia. Each Creator Son is endowed with this spiritual drawing power in his own realm; he is personally conscious of every act and emotion of every descending Son of God serving in his domain. Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.

Note that the quote describes the DRAWING POWER as a DIVINE REFLECTION. This means that it is a divine expression or manifestation of the same DRAWING POWER originating in the Eternal Son. The words “divine reflection” refer to the fact that the spiritual gravity circuit is duplicated in the local universe, but centered in the Creative Son (Michael) rather than the Eternal Son. This duplication, or divine reflection is a subabsolute functioning of the Eternal Son’s spirit gravity circuit.

Here is a description the subabsolute

7:1.5 The Son’s spiritual drawing power is inherent to a lesser degree in many Paradise orders of sonship. For there do exist within the absolute spirit-gravity circuit those local systems of spiritual attraction that function in the lesser units of creation. Such subabsolute focalizations of spirit gravity are a part of the divinity of the Creator personalities of time and space and are correlated with the emerging experiential overcontrol of the Supreme Being.

Here is an explanation of how the spirit gravity circuit works:

7.3.4 The discriminative operation of the spirit-gravity circuit might possibly be compared to the functions of the neural circuits in the material human body: Sensations travel inward over the neural paths; some are detained and responded to by the lower automatic spinal centers; others pass on to the less automatic but habit-trained centers of the lower brain, while the most important and vital incoming messages flash by these subordinate centers and are immediately registered in the highest levels of human consciousness.

Just as sensations travel inward over neural paths in humans, information concerning all his children travels inward over spirit gravity paths to Michael. And just like human beings AUTOMATICALLY have their sensations transmitted over neural paths, descending Sons (and all his other children as well) have their sensations (emotions) transmitted over the spirit gravity circuit. I surmise that sin and iniquity can affect these transmissions, as a form of self-destruction. Removing oneself from the vine will naturally result in death. If Lucifer is alive there is a connection.

Brooklyn_born wrote:

You are incorrect. The qualifier is “serving in his domain.” Lucifer et al. do not serve in Michael’s domain. FACT.

As long as Lucifer is alive, he is in service to Michael. He may choose to refuse this FACT, but until he’s annihilated, he’s in service. And Michael’s domain is the entire local universe of Nebadon. Where is Lucifer now? He’s in Satania. Where is Satania? It’s IN Michael’s domain.

Brooklyn_born wrote:

That is exactly what it means unless you can prove otherwise.

To serve also means to be a member of something. In this case, Lucifer is a member of Michael’s universe family. As long as he is alive, he is serving as a member of the family.

Brooklyn_born wrote:

You are not making sense. The revelation above illustrates mind cannot be fully known as you and Bradly implied when you referenced a revelation that did not even bolster your position.

The quotes 9:6.8-9 are not about Michael’s spirit drawing power which makes him conscious of every descending Son’s emotions and acts. The quotes you are using are about mind-gravity, NOT spirit-gravity, which is a subabsolute circuit of the Eternal Son’s circuit, centered in Michael himself. Mind gravity is a function of the Third Person of Deity and in our local universe, it is centered in the Creative Spirit.

Brooklyn_born wrote:

And how does reflectivity apply to faith based Sons of God?

We’re not talking about faith-sons. We’re talking about descending Son’s, right? And we’re not talking about reflectivity. We’re talking about spirit gravity.

[Oh, sorry . . . my caps are not meant to be shouting or yelling. I’m using them for stress rather than bold type or italic. I prefer to use bold type within quotes and italics for quoting posters and sometimes TUB.]
Brooklyn_bornParticipant
Sep 9, 2017, 8:50 PM

Bonita wrote:

The quote does NOT say that the method by which Michael is conscious of all his Sons’ emotions and actions is part of the phenomenon of reflectivity. The quote DOES state that the method is part of the “ABSOLUTE DRAWING POWER OF THE ETERNAL SON”. This another name for spirit gravity circuit. The spirit gravity circuit is not utilized in reflectivity.

20:1.13 The Creator Sons seem to possess a spiritual endowment centering in their persons, which they control and which they can bestow, as did your own Creator Son when he poured out his spirit upon all mortal flesh on Urantia. Each Creator Son is endowed with this spiritual drawing power in his own realm; he is personally conscious of every act and emotion of every descending Son of God serving in his domain. Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.

Bonita, there are revelations that speak to this spiritual mechanism (reflectivity). Consider this one…

53:2.3 […] Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer’s mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.

Lucifer at this stage did not lose his mind (cosmic mind) fully so there was some mental stability/peace to effect a two-way communication between higher authorities, including Michael, and himself. If the Paradise Sons know all thoughts in the mind of their Lanonandek Sons, regardless of the latter’s mental state, why then was there a need for the Union of Days to intervene with his reflectivity capabilities to communicate to Michael Lucifer’s mental disturbance? Why was not Michael aware of this? BTW…, I never said spiritual gravity circuit and reflectivity are the same.

As long as Lucifer is alive, he is in service to Michael. He may choose to refuse this FACT, but until he’s annihilated, he’s in service. And Michael’s domain is the entire local universe of Nebadon. Where is Lucifer now? He’s in Satania. Where is Satania? It’s IN Michael’s domain.

Absolute rubbish, Bonita. This is what we are told about their service to Michael.

53:7.13 With the arrival of Lanaforge the archrebels were dethroned and shorn of all governing powers, though they were permitted freely to go about Jerusem, the morontia spheres, and even to the individual inhabited worlds. They continued their deceptive and seductive efforts to confuse and mislead the minds of men and angels. But as concerned their work on the administrative mount of Jerusem, “their place was found no more.”

They are NOT in the service of Michael. Once upon a time they were but not when they rebelled. And as long as they do not accept rehabilitation they are not serving Michael.

To serve also means to be a member of something. In this case, Lucifer is a member of Michael’s universe family. As long as he is alive, he is serving as a member of the family.

I cannot take you seriously at this stage with what you just stated above, Bonita.

The quotes 9:6.8-9 are not about Michael’s spirit drawing power which makes him conscious of every descending Son’s emotions and acts. The quotes you are using are about mind-gravity, NOT spirit-gravity, which is a subabsolute circuit of the Eternal Son’s circuit, centered in Michael himself. Mind gravity is a function of the Third Person of Deity and in our local universe, it is centered in the Creative Spirit.

Bonita, Michael does not know every thought occurring in the minds of Wayward Sons. I already gave you the revelation. Here it is again…

53:2.3 […] Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer’s mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.

As long as these Sons refuse rehabilitation, they remain out of the fold. They are not serving in the celestial ministry to humankind.

BB
BonitaParticipant
Sep 9, 2017, 11:37 PM

Brooklyn_born wrote:

Bonita, there are revelations that speak to this spiritual mechanism (reflectivity). Consider this one… 53:2.3 […] Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer’s mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.

Lucifer at this stage did not lose his mind (cosmic mind) fully so there was some mental stability/peace to effect a two-way communication between higher authorities, including Michael, and himself. If the Paradise Sons know all thoughts in the mind of their Lanonandek Sons, regardless of the latter’s mental state, why then was there a need for the Union of Days to intervene with his reflectivity capabilities to communicate to Michael Lucifer’s mental disturbance? Why was not Michael aware of this? BTW…, I never said spiritual gravity circuit and reflectivity are the same.

You’re still talking about two different things. The manner in which Michael is conscious of every emotion and act of his descending Sons is NOT through reflectivity of mind activity. (Recall that reflectivity is a function of the Infinite Spirit, the source of mind). Michael uses a spiritual circuit, which is separate from reflectivity. Also, recall that the Unions of Days are representatives of the Trinity who act as advisors to the local universes. Michael likely already knew that Lucifer’s emotions and actions were not peaceful, but after the Unions of Days reported on the matter, it became a matter that went beyond the local universe. Michael would necessarily need to know that.

18:6.3 In a special manner these Trinity observers co-ordinate the administrative activities of all branches of the universal government, from those of the local universes up through the sector governments to those of the superuniverse, hence their name — Unions of Days. They make a threefold report to their superiors: They report pertinent data of a physical and semi-intellectual nature to the Recents of Days of their minor sector; they report intellectual and quasi-spiritual happenings to the Perfections of Days of their major sector; they report spiritual and semiparadisiacal matters to the Ancients of Days at the capital of their superuniverse.

Brooklyn_born wrote:

Absolute rubbish, Bonita. This is what we are told about their service to Michael.

53:7.13 With the arrival of Lanaforge the archrebels were dethroned and shorn of all governing powers, though they were permitted freely to go about Jerusem, the morontia spheres, and even to the individual inhabited worlds. They continued their deceptive and seductive efforts to confuse and mislead the minds of men and angels. But as concerned their work on the administrative mount of Jerusem, “their place was found no more.” They are NOT in the service of Michael. Once upon a time they were but not when they rebelled. And as long as they do not accept rehabilitation they are not serving Michael.

Well first of all, I find it offensive to be told my words are “absolute rubbish”. I’ll accept your apology. But here again, you are using only one rigid meaning of the word “serve”, that of performing a duty/job, behaving as a servant. There are other meanings of the word “serve” you might consider. Descending Sons are created for no other reason but service to the local universe. Their very existence IS service. Only when they no longer exist do they no longer serve. Lucifer may be imprisoned but he is still in the service of Michael. Soldiers who are imprisoned are still “in the service” until they are discharged. In Lucifer’s case, his discharge will be his annihilation.

Brooklyn_born wrote:

Bonita, Michael does not know every thought occurring in the minds of Wayward Sons. I already gave you the revelation. Here it is again…

The quote in question states that the Creator Son is personally conscious of every emotion and action of every descending Son serving in his domain. Does every emotion and action mean every thought? That is certainly up for debate. Not all thoughts are emotions. However, I do think doubt, distrust, hate and suspicion are emotions that Michael would likely be conscious of, and Lucifer is certainly guilty of harboring those emotions. Here’s the quote again:

20:1.13 The Creator Sons seem to possess a spiritual endowment centering in their persons, which they control and which they can bestow, as did your own Creator Son when he poured out his spirit upon all mortal flesh on Urantia. Each Creator Son is endowed with this spiritual drawing power in his own realm; he is personally conscious of every act and emotion of every descending Son of God serving in his domain.Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.

Brooklyn_born wrote:

As long as these Sons refuse rehabilitation, they remain out of the fold. They are not serving in the celestial ministry to humankind.

Would you mind providing the quote which states that Lucifer is no longer a member of “the fold”. What is the meaning of the phrase, “the fold”? I think it means the universe family. Until the trial is over and Lucifer is annihilated, he is a member of “the fold”. Some may not like that, but that’s the way it is. He gets every opportunity for mercy right up until the very end when he no longer IS. Don’t forget that Michael is the Good Shepherd and he never gives up on any one of the sheep in his fold. It’s the other way around, they give up on him.
Brooklyn_bornParticipant
Sep 10, 2017, 12:23 PM

Bonita wrote:

You’re still talking about two different things. The manner in which Michael is conscious of every emotion and act of his descending Sons is NOT through reflectivity of mind activity. (Recall that reflectivity is a function of the Infinite Spirit, the source of mind). Michael uses a spiritual circuit, which is separate from reflectivity. Also, recall that the Unions of Days are representatives of the Trinity who act as advisors to the local universes. Michael likely already knew that Lucifer’s emotions and actions were not peaceful, but after the Unions of Days reported on the matter, it became a matter that went beyond the local universe. Michael would necessarily need to know that.

18:6.3 In a special manner these Trinity observers co-ordinate the administrative activities of all branches of the universal government, from those of the local universes up through the sector governments to those of the superuniverse, hence their name — Unions of Days. They make a threefold report to their superiors: They report pertinent data of a physical and semi-intellectual nature to the Recents of Days of their minor sector; they report intellectual and quasi-spiritual happenings to the Perfections of Days of their major sector; they report spiritual and semiparadisiacal matters to the Ancients of Days at the capital of their superuniverse.

Bonita, you say : “Michael likely already knew that Lucifer’s emotions and actions were not peaceful, but after the Unions of Days reported on the matter, it became a matter that went beyond the local universe. Michael would necessarily need to know that.”

You have absolutely no proof of this. The Revelator tells us Michael had to be informed by Union of Days of Lucifer’s mental state. That debunks your claim that Michael knows all that occurs in the mind of his sons. My point was to show you that you were wrong about your initial claim on the omniscience of Michael.

Brooklyn_born wrote:

Absolute rubbish, Bonita. This is what we are told about their service to Michael.

53:7.13 With the arrival of Lanaforge the archrebels were dethroned and shorn of all governing powers, though they were permitted freely to go about Jerusem, the morontia spheres, and even to the individual inhabited worlds. They continued their deceptive and seductive efforts to confuse and mislead the minds of men and angels. But as concerned their work on the administrative mount of Jerusem, “their place was found no more.” They are NOT in the service of Michael. Once upon a time they were but not when they rebelled. And as long as they do not accept rehabilitation they are not serving Michael.

Well first of all, I find it offensive to be told my words are “absolute rubbish”. I’ll accept your apology. But here again, you are using only one rigid meaning of the word “serve”, that of performing a duty/job, behaving as a servant. There are other meanings of the word “serve” you might consider. Descending Sons are created for no other reason but service to the local universe. Their very existence IS service. Only when they no longer exist do they no longer serve. Lucifer may be imprisoned but he is still in the service of Michael. Soldiers who are imprisoned are still “in the service” until they are discharged. In Lucifer’s case, his discharge will be his annihilation.

Okay I apologize for using the word rubbish. Your statement is baseless. Lucifer does not serve Michael no matter what definition you want to use, Bonita. He REBELLED against Michael.

Brooklyn_born wrote:

Bonita, Michael does not know every thought occurring in the minds of Wayward Sons. I already gave you the revelation. Here it is again…

The quote in question states that the Creator Son is personally conscious of every emotion and action of every descending Son serving in his domain. Does every emotion and action mean every thought? That is certainly up for debate. Not all thoughts are emotions. However, I do think doubt, distrust, hate and suspicion are emotions that Michael would likely be conscious of, and Lucifer is certainly guilty of harboring those emotions. Here’s the quote again:

20:1.13 The Creator Sons seem to possess a spiritual endowment centering in their persons, which they control and which they can bestow, as did your own Creator Son when he poured out his spirit upon all mortal flesh on Urantia. Each Creator Son is endowed with this spiritual drawing power in his own realm; he is personally conscious of every act and emotion of every descending Son of God serving in his domain.Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.

Bonita, I explained this already. The criteria for these sons is, “serving in his domain.”

As long as these Sons refuse rehabilitation, they remain out of the fold. They are not serving in the celestial ministry to humankind.

Would you mind providing the quote which states that Lucifer is no longer a member of “the fold”. What is the meaning of the phrase, “the fold”? I think it means the universe family. Until the trial is over and Lucifer is annihilated, he is a member of “the fold”. Some may not like that, but that’s the way it is. He gets every opportunity for mercy right up until the very end when he no longer IS. Don’t forget that Michael is the Good Shepherd and he never gives up on any one of the sheep in his fold. It’s the other way around, they give up on him.

fold = descending ministering of service. Their SERVICE to humankind is to facilitate the progress in the Paradise climb of the lowly creatures of evolutionary origin. Lucifer et al. no longer SERVE in this capacity.

20:1.1 All descending Sons of God have high and divine origins. They are dedicated to the
descending ministry of service on the worlds and systems of time and space, there to
facilitate the progress in the Paradise climb of the lowly creatures of evolutionary origin —
the ascending sons of God. Of the numerous orders of descending Sons, seven will be
depicted in these narratives.

BB
BonitaParticipant
Sep 10, 2017, 1:24 PM

Brooklyn_born wrote:

The Revelator tells us Michael had to be informed by Union of Days of Lucifer’s mental state. That debunks your claim that Michael knows all that occurs in the mind of his sons.

I don’t see anything in the quote below that mentions the fact that Michael HAD to be informed. It simply says that the information was communicated to him along with the Constellation Fathers. It looks to me that you have read something into the quote that isn’t actually there.

53:2.3 Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer’s mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.

Brooklyn_born wrote:

My point was to show you that you were wrong about your initial claim on the omniscience of Michael.

I don’t recall ever using that word, OMNISCIENCE. It means the state of knowing EVERYTHING, not just emotions, thoughts and actions. Again, I think you read something into my post that just is not there.

The quote I provided explains that Michael’s spirit gravity circuit within his universe allows him to MAKE AND MAINTAIN contact with all of his Sons, and that contact gives him information on their emotions and actions. That’s all the quote says. It says nothing about OMNISCIENCE.

You asserted that Michael is unable to MAINTAIN contact with Lucifer’s emotions and actions presumably because you have read into the quote something about reflectivity. There is nothing in the quote about reflectivity either. The use of the word “reflection” seems to have thrown you off the fact that the quote is about Michael’s spirit circuit which originates in the Eternal Son. Reflectivity originates in the Infinite Spirit. The quote also says that it doesn’t matter where his Sons are in all universes of the Grand Universe . . . that would include the prison worlds. Michael has the ability to MAKE AND MAINTAIN that contact, even in the prison worlds (which belong to Michael).

20:1.13 Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.

Brooklyn_born wrote:

Your statement is baseless. Lucifer does not serve Michael no matter what definition you want to use, Bonita. He REBELLED against Michael.

Yes, he did rebel against Michael, but that changes nothing about the fact of SONSHIP. As long as Lucifer is alive, he has the gift of sonship, and SONSHIP IS SYNONYMOUS WITH SERVICE. Lanonandek Sons are created for only one purpose, they are unable to do anything other than the specific form of service they were created for. They cannot evolve into something else by sheer will, which is what Lucifer attempted to do. Lucifer’s “. . . rejection of universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations, [and] blindness to cosmic relationships. (53:01)” does nothing at all to change the fact of sonship. Rejection of the gift of sonship, blindness to cosmic relations which results in refusal to accept universe responsibilities (service) cannot erase the fact of sonship until identity annihilation occurs. Every son of God, whether a big or small “s”, is entitled to all the mercy, love and tenderness both the universe and universal fathers have to give. Lucifer is still a Son, he is still in the service of Michael despite his emotional and mental condition.

Brooklyn_born wrote:

Bonita, I explained this already. The criteria for these sons is, “serving in his domain.”

If Lucifer is not in Michael’s domain, where is he?

Brooklyn_born wrote:

fold = descending ministering of service. Their SERVICE to humankind is to facilitate the progress in the Paradise climb of the lowly creatures of evolutionary origin. Lucifer et al. no longer SERVE in this capacity.

Just because Lucifer is incapacitated in his ability to serve in a particular capacity does not change the fact that he is a Son of God and a member of the FOLD. You wrote: “As long as these Sons refuse rehabilitation, they remain out of the fold.” Technically that’s impossible. As long as Lucifer is in existence he is in the fold of Sons; he has the gift of sonship. Sonship will not be taken from him until that moment when he no longer exists . . . as though he never was.
MaraParticipant
Sep 10, 2017, 2:52 PM

Bonita wrote:

As long as Lucifer is in existence he is in the fold of Sons; he has the gift of sonship. Sonship will not be taken from him until that moment when he no longer exists . . . as though he never was.

Thank you Bonita for your patience with BB. I agree with your point of view about Lucifer. In support of your comments, I would like to add this bit about Caligastia, the deposed Planetary Prince of Urantia and a Son of the secondary order of Lanonandels. Caligastia is still free to roam on Urantia! He is still a Son of the secondary order of Lanonandeks, as far as I can tell. He’s still roaming around here.

53:1.4 [ [. . .] The “devil” is none other than Caligastia, the deposed Planetary Prince of Urantia and a Son of the secondary order of Lanonandeks. At the time Michael was on Urantia in the flesh, Lucifer, Satan, and Caligastia were leagued together to effect the miscarriage of his bestowal mission. But they signally failed.

53:8.6 The last act of Michael before leaving Urantia was to offer mercy to Caligastia and Daligastia, but they spurned his tender proffer. Caligastia, your apostate Planetary Prince, is still free on Urantia to prosecute his nefarious designs, but he has absolutely no power to enter the minds of men, neither can he draw near to their souls to tempt or corrupt them unless they really desire to be cursed with his wicked presence.

66:8.7 And now this rebel [Caligastia] of the realm, shorn of all power to harm his former subjects, awaits the final adjudication, by the Uversa Ancients of Days, of all who participated in the Lucifer rebellion
Van AmadonParticipant
Sep 10, 2017, 2:59 PM
What do you think is the reason why Caligastia and Daligastia are allowed to roam free?

There must be a purpose.
MaraParticipant
Sep 10, 2017, 3:16 PM

Van Amadon wrote:

What do you think is the reason why Caligastia and Daligastia are allowed to roam free?

You may find this reference interesting, regarding free will.

66:8.6 The doctrine of a personal devil on Urantia, though it had some foundation in the planetary presence of the traitorous and iniquitous Caligastia, was nevertheless wholly fictitious in its teachings that such a “devil” could influence the normal human mind against its free and natural choosing. Even before Michael’s bestowal on Urantia, neither Caligastia nor Daligastia was ever able to oppress mortals or to coerce any normal individual into doing anything against the human will. The free will of man is supreme in moral affairs; even the indwelling Thought Adjuster refuses to compel man to think a single thought or to perform a single act against the choosing of man’s own will.

Humans (me and you, BB and Bonita, Midi and Bradly, Keryn et al, to include most everyone on the planet) is helped by the Adjutant Mind Spirits, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, one’s a Thought Adjuster, and so on. All the help humans have going for them indicates to me once again that the purpose of our evolutionary struggles, our personal participation in the adventure of the attainment of light and life, both personally, for the sake of Urantia, and to contribute to the growth of the Supreme.

54:2.3 Lucifer’s folly was the attempt to do the nondoable, to short-circuit time in an experiential universe. Lucifer’s crime was the attempted creative disenfranchisement of every personality in Satania, the unrecognized abridgment of the creature’s personal participation — freewill participation — in the long evolutionary struggle to attain the status of light and life both individually and collectively. In so doing this onetime Sovereign of your system set the temporal purpose of his own will directly athwart the eternal purpose of God’s will as it is revealed in the bestowal of free will upon all personal creatures. The Lucifer rebellion thus threatened the maximum possible infringement of the freewill choice of the ascenders and servers of the system of Satania — a threat forevermore to deprive every one of these beings of the thrilling experience of contributing something personal and unique to the slowly erecting monument to experiential wisdom which will sometime exist as the perfected system of Satania. Thus does the Lucifer manifesto, masquerading in the habiliments of liberty, stand forth in the clear light of reason as a monumental threat to consummate the theft of personal liberty and to do it on a scale that has been approached only twice in all the history of Nebadon.
Van AmadonParticipant
Sep 10, 2017, 3:22 PM
Yes, but if the rebel midwayers and Lucifer and Satan were intered at the end of Michael’s bestowal, why do you think Caligastia and Daligastia weren’t?

I often wonder about this and what’s going to happen.
GeneParticipant
Sep 10, 2017, 4:13 PM
54:2.3 Lucifer’s folly was the attempt to do the nondoable, to short-circuit time in an experiential universe

For himself, I have wondered what exactly was his purpose and maybe the above quote is part of it- combine the quote with what Bonita pointed out about Lanonandeks that they were created for a specific purpose: to serve – meaning they are non-experiential beings, unable to progress beyond what they are created for by experience. Maybe part of Lucifer’s folly was attempting to become experiential – the non-doable in his case?

and failure helped seed his rebellion?
MaraParticipant
Sep 10, 2017, 4:52 PM

Van Amadon wrote:

Yes, but if the rebel midwayers and Lucifer and Satan were intered at the end of Michael’s bestowal, why do you think Caligastia and Daligastia weren’t?

Lucifer was the System Sovereign, so he had the greater crime it seems to me. He seduced Cali and Dali with his sopistries. Remember how brilliant he was?

53:0.1 [Lucifer] is numbered as one of three System Sovereigns in Nebadon who have succumbed to the urge of self and surrendered to the sophistry of spurious personal liberty — rejection of universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations, blindness to cosmic relationships.

But think of it! Think of how fortunate Urantia is. Michael’s seventh bestowal took place here! Jesus did offer mercy to the rebels. As far as I know, Cali and Dali didn’t accept his proffer. They are shorn of power and they are powerless to enter anyone’s mind, unless the person chooses – of his/her own free will – to cooperate with their machinations and sophistries.

3:5.13 […] Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.

Apparently Cali and Dali can’t leave the planet. Not sure. But who of our unseen friends will help them if their faces are turned away from these scoundrels.

Anyway, these are my current thoughts, Van. Got to go now. Talk later.
BonitaParticipant
Sep 10, 2017, 5:04 PM

Gene wrote:Maybe part of Lucifer’s folly was attempting to become experiential – the non-doable in his case?

I don’t know what Lucifer thought he could do, but I do know that once classified as a primary Lanonandek, there is nothing else he can become, no other function is open to him, at least in this universe age.

35:8.7 It is not possible, as it is with evolutionary beings, for these Sons to progress from one group to another. When subjected to the Melchizedek training, when once tested and classified, they serve continuously in the rank assigned. Neither do these Sons engage in reproduction; their number in the universe is stationary.
BonitaParticipant
Sep 10, 2017, 5:28 PM

Mara wrote:

They are shorn of power and they are powerless to enter anyone’s mind, unless the person chooses – of his/her own free will – to cooperate with their machinations and sophistries.

I don’t think they are shorn of ALL power, but they are certainly powerless against free will (75:2.1). And more interestingly, despite their rebellious minds and horrible actions, they remain SERVILE before the Thought Adjusters! And they’re also SERVILE before the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of their own father, Michael. So yeah, these rebels still serve despite themselves.

53:8.7 Before the bestowal of Michael these rulers of darkness sought to maintain their authority on Urantia, and they persistently withstood the minor and subordinate celestial personalities. But since the day of Pentecost this traitorous Caligastia and his equally contemptible associate, Daligastia, are servile before the divine majesty of the Paradise Thought Adjusters and the protective Spirit of Truth, the spirit of Michael, which has been poured out upon all flesh.

It looks like these Lanonandek Sons are powerless to play games with superior spiritual beings. Not even their close brothers, the Vorondadeks, who are slightly higher on the spirit scale than they are, succumbed to their sophistries. TUB does inform us that in any conflict, the being of the higher spirit level always wins because he/she is more real than the lower being. Reality is always the winner. The non-doable (non-reality) always the loser.

2.3.5 In any universe contest between actual levels of reality, the personality of the higher level will ultimately triumph over the personality of the lower level. This inevitable outcome of universe controversy is inherent in the fact that divinity of quality equals the degree of reality or actuality of any will creature.
BradlyParticipant
Sep 10, 2017, 6:49 PM
Regarding what God and Michael might know about the thoughts and minds of all creatures in their respective domains, I would surmise that evil, sin, and iniquity might not be represented or reflected due to the fact of its non-reality. But the emotional effects and repercussions of sin and iniquity would be known by both reflectivity and by the gravity circuits (non-material ones). I noticed it was said in text that it was known that not all was well in Lucifer’s mind but not that disloyalty and betrayal were specifically identified. Pure speculation on my part. But it does seem odd to me to claim or suggest that anything God might know is not known by His Paradise Creator Sons related to Super or Local Universe administration. Some quotes I think might contribute to the subject:

9:7.1 [Part I]
The Conjoint Actor is able to co-ordinate all levels of universe actuality in such manner as to make possible the simultaneous recognition of the mental, the material, and the spiritual. This is the phenomenon of universe reflectivity, that unique and inexplicable power to see, hear, sense, and know all things as they transpire throughout a superuniverse, and to focalize, by reflectivity, all this information and knowledge at any desired point. The action of reflectivity is shown in perfection on each of the headquarters worlds of the seven superuniverses. It is also operative throughout all sectors of the superuniverses and within the boundaries of the local universes. Reflectivity finally focalizes on Paradise.

17:3.3 [Part I]
The attribute of reflectivity, the phenomenon of the mind levels of the Conjoint Actor, the Supreme Being, and the Master Spirits, is transmissible to all beings concerned in the working of this vast scheme of universal intelligence. And herein is a great mystery: Neither the Master Spirits nor the Paradise Deities, singly or collectively, disclose these powers of co-ordinate universal reflectivity just as they are manifested in these forty-nine liaison personalities of Majeston, and yet they are the creators of all these marvelously endowed beings. Divine heredity does sometimes disclose in the creature certain attributes which are not discernible in the Creator.

17:3.8 [Part I]
Everything of import transpiring on a local universe headquarters is inherently reflected to the capital of its superuniverse. And conversely, everything of local universe significance is reflected outward to the local universe capitals from the headquarters of their superuniverse. The reflectivity service from the universes of time up to the superuniverses is apparently automatic or self-operating, but it is not. It is all very personal and intelligent; its precision results from perfection of personality co-operation and therefore can hardly be attributed to the impersonal presence-performances of the Absolutes.

32:4.8 (363.6) We can see and understand the mechanism whereby the Sons enjoy intimate and complete knowledge regarding the universes of their jurisdiction; but we cannot fully comprehend the methods whereby God is so fully and personally conversant with the details of the universe of universes, although we at least can recognize the avenue whereby the Universal Father can receive information regarding, and manifest his presence to, the beings of his immense creation. Through the personality circuit the Father is cognizant — has personal knowledge — of all the thoughts and acts of all the beings in all the systems of all the universes of all creation. Though we cannot fully grasp this technique of God’s communion with his children, we can be strengthened in the assurance that the “Lord knows his children,” and that of each one of us “he takes note where we were born.”

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Sep 11, 2017, 1:06 PM

Bradly wrote:

I would surmise that evil, sin, and iniquity might not be represented or reflected due to the fact of its non-reality.

If evil is imperfection, are you saying that none of our imperfect thoughts are known by either Michael or the Thought Adjuster? I’m pretty sure that the Thought Adjuster knows everything that goes on inside our heads, since almost all of it is imperfect.

3:1.5 Truly of the human race has it been said, “You are of God” because “he who dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.” Even in wrongdoing you torment the indwelling gift of God, for the Thought Adjuster must needs go through the consequences of evil thinking with the human mind of its incarceration.
MaraParticipant
Sep 11, 2017, 1:50 PM

Bonita wrote:

“. . . the Thought Adjuster must needs go through the consequences of evil thinking with the human mind of its incarceration.”

But the thoughts of evil thinking are not the same thing as the acts of acting out the thoughts. The Adjuster goes through the consequences, because consequences imply to me that acting on those thoughts has occurred. The act is our, the consequences God’s.
MaraParticipant
Sep 11, 2017, 2:00 PM
The rebellion stared in Lucifer’s mind. And mind is the arena of choice.

53:2.5 It is very difficult to point out the exact cause or causes which finally culminated in the Luciferrebellion. We are certain of only one thing, and that is: Whatever these first beginnings were, they had their origin in Lucifer’s mind. There must have been a pride of self that nourished itself to the point of self-deception, so that Lucifer for a time really persuaded himself that his contemplation of rebellion was actually for the good of the system, if not of the universe. By the time his plans had developed to the point of disillusionment, no doubt he had gone too far for his original and mischief-making pride to permit him to stop. At some point in this experience he became insincere, and evil evolved into deliberate and willful sin. That this happened is proved by the subsequent conduct of this brilliant executive. He was long offered opportunity for repentance, but only some of his subordinates ever accepted the proffered mercy. The Faithful of Days of Edentia, on the request of the Constellation Fathers, in person presented the plan of Michael for the saving of these flagrant rebels, but always was the mercy of the Creator Son rejected and rejected with increasing contempt and disdain.
MaraParticipant
Sep 11, 2017, 2:03 PM
Doesn’t cosmic insanity start out in the mind?

67:1.4 . . . iniquity consists in an open and persistent defiance of recognized reality and signifies such a degree of personality disintegration as to border on cosmic insanity.
BonitaParticipant
Sep 11, 2017, 2:10 PM
There’s another avenue of connectivity we haven’t spoken of yet, and that is the Universal Father’s personality circuit. There’s no doubt whatsoever that God himself is completely conscious of and in personal touch with Lucifer’s personality. The fact that Lucifer ignores this contact cannot change it. Lucifer’s personality, just like every personality, is indestructible. God never stops loving a personality. As long as Lucifer has a personality that personality will have unbroken contact with God himself. (56:4.2).

32:4.8 We can see and understand the mechanism whereby the Sons enjoy intimate and complete knowledge regarding the universes of their jurisdiction; but we cannot fully comprehend the methods whereby God is so fully and personally conversant with the details of the universe of universes, although we at least can recognize the avenue whereby the Universal Father can receive information regarding, and manifest his presence to, the beings of his immense creation. Through the personality circuit the Father is cognizant—has personal knowledge—of all the thoughts and acts of all the beings in all the systems of all the universes of all creation. Though we cannot fully grasp this technique of God’s communion with his children, we can be strengthened in the assurance that the “Lord knows his children,” and that of each one of us “he takes note where we were born.”

5:6.10 The personality circuit of the universe of universes is centered in the person of the Universal Father, and the Paradise Father is personally conscious of, and in personal touch with, all personalities of all levels of self-conscious existence. And this personality consciousness of all creation exists independently of the mission of the Thought Adjusters.

3:1.6 The omnipresence of God is in reality a part of his infinite nature; space constitutes no barrier to Deity. God is, in perfection and without limitation, discernibly present only on Paradise and in the central universe. He is not thus observably present in the creations encircling Havona, for God has limited his direct and actual presence in recognition of the sovereignty and the divine prerogatives of the co-ordinate creators and rulers of the universes of time and space. Hence must the concept of the divine presence allow for a wide range of both mode and channel of manifestation embracing the presence circuits of the Eternal Son, the Infinite Spirit, and the Isle of Paradise. Nor is it always possible to distinguish between the presence of the Universal Father and the actions of his eternal co-ordinates and agencies, so perfectly do they fulfill all the infinite requirements of his unchanging purpose. But not so with the personality circuit and the Adjusters; here God acts uniquely, directly, and exclusively.

5:0.2 God has distributed the infinity of his eternal nature throughout the existential realities of his six absolute co-ordinates, but he may, at any time, make direct personal contact with any part or phase or kind of creation through the agency of his prepersonal fragments. And the eternal God has also reserved to himself the prerogative of bestowing personality upon the divine Creators and the living creatures of the universe of universes, while he has further reserved the prerogative of maintaining direct and parental contact with all these personal beings through the personality circuit.

56:4.2 Personality inherently reaches out to unify all constituent realities. The infinite personality of the First Source and Center, the Universal Father, unifies all seven constituent Absolutes of Infinity; and the personality of mortal man, being an exclusive and direct bestowal of the Universal Father, likewise possesses the potential of unifying the constituent factors of the mortal creature. Such unifying creativity of all creature personality is a birthmark of its high and exclusive source and is further evidential of its unbroken contact with this same source through the personality circuit, by means of which the personality of the creature maintains direct and sustaining contact with the Father of all personality on Paradise.
BonitaParticipant
Sep 11, 2017, 2:20 PM

Mara wrote:

But the thoughts of evil thinking are not the same thing as the acts of acting out the thoughts. The Adjuster goes through the consequences, because consequences imply to me that acting on those thoughts has occurred. The act is our, the consequences God’s.

All of our thoughts begin as imperfection, hence by definition they are evil. The process of perfecting or adjusting those thoughts is what the Adjuster does. Therefore, there’s no doubt the Adjuster is quite familiar with evil thinking. Evil thinking is simply imperfect thinking. The Adjuster works unceasingly to perfect, or spiritualize it. How could he do such a thing without being intimately familiar with it?

I don’t think consequences of evil thinking necessarily mean ONLY actions. We can have wrong impressions which lead to wrong analysis and wrong interpretations of reality. It can all cascade as a consequence of erroneous thinking. Even if none of those consequences get acted out, they are still a tangled mess of meanings that need to be sorted out within the soul.

The saying, “The act is ours; the consequences God’s.” is referring to the bearing of spiritual fruit. It refers to that which contributes to the Supreme.

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