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Did the Midwayers narrate Church history as "War in Heaven"?

269 posts · 8 participants · started Oct 22, 2014, 5:46 PM

  1. Well….that seems an odd and rather expansive supposition given the context of the Paper: (361.1) 32:3.6 The farther down the scale of life we go, the more difficult it becomes to locate, with the eye of faith, the invisible Father. The lower creatures — and sometimes even the higher personalities — find it difficult always to envisage the Universal Father in his Creator Sons. And so, pending the time of their spiritual exaltation, when perfection of development will enable them to see God in person, they grow weary in progression, entertain spiritual doubts, stumble into confusion, and thus isolate themselves from the progressive spiritual aims of their time and universe. In this way they lose the ability to see the Father when beholding the Creator Son. The surest safeguard for the creature throughout the long struggle to attain the Father, during this time when inherent conditions make such attainment impossible, is tenaciously to hold on to the truth-fact of the Father’s presence in his Sons. Literally and figuratively, spiritually and personally, the Father and the Sons are one. It is a fact: He who has seen a Creator Son has seen the Father. (361.2) 32:3.7 The personalities of a given universe are settled and dependable, at the start, only in accordance with their degree of kinship to Deity. When creature origin departs sufficiently far from the original and divine Sources, whether we are dealing with the Sons of God or the creatures of ministry belonging to the Infinite Spirit, there is an increase in the possibility of disharmony, confusion, and sometimes rebellion — sin. (361.3) 32:3.8 Excepting perfect beings of Deity origin, all will creatures in the superuniverses are of evolutionary nature, beginning in lowly estate and climbing ever upward, in reality inward. Even highly spiritual personalities continue to ascend the scale of life by progressive translations from life to life and from sphere to sphere. And in the case of those who entertain the Mystery Monitors, there is indeed no limit to the possible heights of their spiritual ascent and universe attainment.

     

    I believe the reference I provided sets precedence to method of interpretation. I do not recall the authors warning readers  to avoid placing figurative, spiritual or personal interpretations on revelation. In fact, you have conceded previously that revelation can be personalized. Correct?

    BB

  2. Me here: Of course you are allowed whatever your free will allows by your so choosing. But just because we are allowed to be incorrect, does not make something correct either. I am most doubtful of my own conclusions and opinions; how can I then not also be a little skeptical of the conclusions of others? No insult intended by my disagreements here.

    You misunderstood my question. Let me rephrase… Is interpreting revelation ‘figuratively’ as oppose to ‘literally’ wrong? Bear in mind you have argued that revelations should be read and understood from a literal point of view. That is, unless I am misunderstanding your position.

    BB

  3. One more thought I’d like you to consider, Bradley. The author says:

    “… Literally and figuratively, spiritually and personally,the Father and the Sons are one.”

    But he does not provide the figurative meaning to the statement, “Father and the Sons are one.” It is safe to say, I presume, that that determination is left to the reader. So my question to you is what is your understanding of the figurative meaning of that statement, and do you realize each person will take away a different figurative meaning from the same?

    BB

  4. Very interesting questions (as usual)…..don’t know if I can address these head on but I’ll circle in as best I can.  I do believe that all revelation is subject to the mindal capacity and experiential perspective by which it is received and this “limitation” always results in the personalization of both fact and truth.  But just because 10 witnesses to any event may have 10 differing recollections/perspectives does not result in 10 facts or events.  Our progression in spirit and education/knowledge acquisition through time and experience is the source of the fact that each of us has a unique and partial grasp of everything – including that right before our eyes and that even shared by others, still there are differences in perception.  It is this “perception-personalization” limitation that is relevant here and not the difference between literal and figurative IMO.  Just because the 10 witnesses above disagree on the shared experience does not make the fact or occurrence figurative rather than literal/factual.  It is perception of reality that differs – not reality itself.  So yes, I do think the UB is an educational text book of cosmological facts related to Deity and all of creation – a primer or introduction to fact and a guide book into the discovery of truth by the gift of these facts regarding the personages and relationships within the creation of and by Deity.

    But one must believe a couple of things to come to such a view:  this book is my first encounter with even the concept of “epochal revelation” and it claims to be such, the 5th to our world.  I never heard of Dalmatia and the Prince, Melchizidek was just some priest of Salem, the Garden was a fable describing creationism (and I believed in creationism but thought the Garden was a fictitious metaphor), and that Jesus’ mission was to show us the WAY to be and live and die and survive in God’s love – but I didn’t have any concept of epochal revelation at the time.  So one must believe there is epochal revelation and then believe the book which claims itself to be such a thing is indeed such a thing.  Otherwise, there is only one conclusion possible – the UB is not a revelation at all and it hardly matters how one takes it and would be required I think to be viewed as a very interesting book of philosophic religiosity for the truth seeker to interpret for the discovery of hidden meanings delivered by unknown human authors….rather clever ones!

    Now, if one were to believe in epochal revelation and that the UB is such, then I would conclude (for myself) that the facts presented, despite the limitations of human language and limited mind capacity, perspective, and experience – that the words written would be intentionally factual and as clearly presented as possible given those limitations (which is precisely what the authors state).  You recently posted:  “Okay, so epochal revelation is reduced to a literal reading.”  I agree!!  IF this is an epochal revelation THEN it is to be read literally AS BEST as each mind is able.  And multiple readings does indeed result in new appreciation and greater meaning TO the individual reading.  But it is not my opinion of this that matters nor is it my mission to convince any other to accept my opinion as true for them.  Truth is nontransferable from one mortal to another, perhaps even from any creature to any other, including celestial minds.  So, the same fact and/or truth will not be different FOR each but differentiated BY each in understanding.  This does not make the literal figurative….it makes the literal subject to individualization of perspective – literally!!

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  5. . So my question to you is what is your understanding of the figurative meaning of that statement, and do you realize each person will take away a different figurative meaning from the same?

     

    Me here:  I think we have very different views as to the meaning of “figurative”.  To me, the word means representative or illustrative – it is not a form of meaning but a vehicle or device to bring meaning.  So I don’t understand “figurative meaning” – each person has a different view and a very limited view of fact and truth.  It is not a figurative meaning, it is a personal meaning based on the individualized point of view.  In the case of the quote posted, I would assume that the fact of the Son’s position as the ascending creatures “representative” of God is the “figurative” view but it is to be taken as a literal fact as well that the two are one or the “same as” for those of us residing in time and space.  It is not a figure of speech, or not only a figure of speech but it is literally and factually true or so it is for those of time and space residence and ascendant mind.

    English definition of “figurative”
    › (written abbreviation fig.) (of words and phrases) used not with their basic meaning but with a more imaginative meaning, in order to create a special effect:
    Of course, she was using the term ‘massacre’ in the figurative sense.

     

    I believe the words chosen by the authors were so chosen for their “basic meaning” as generally defined and accepted to be taken at “face” value, not on any figurative illustrative other meaning.  But that’s just me.  I reject the complications and the interpretative needs you present as being incorrect in any text book of facts that claims to be epochal revelation by celestial authors.  It’s not a mystery book or story book – its a text of cosmological facts, written as plainly and clearly as possible by the authors which will, of course, be approached and discerned and accepted or declined by the individual mind that encounters it.  And the differences in understanding are inherent to understanding itself and the individual mind and experience inherently results in those differences you describe.  And all of this is fully explained in plain English as well….the differentiation of understanding and utilization by each ascender through every step of spiritization and progress.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  6. BB – I read the reference/link you cite and found some other interesting reading which makes me wonder about your earlier claims.  The Israelites certainly did have writings about celestials and the UB clearly states that much of the story of the rebellion and ascendance were tortured by human minds and hands over time.  Your source cites the following:

    Search for “satan” by :

    1 2 3 4 Next › Last »

    SATAN – …likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a …distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or “sons of God,” before the Deity, replying to the …characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men’s sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor…
    DEVIL – …See Demonology and satan”>Satan….
    AHRIMAN – …Parsee doctrine, a god of light and a god of darkness.”Satan” in the Bible. But after the Exile the Jewish mind becomes unable to refer to God, as formerly …everything that has happened and continues to happen in the world. As early as the prologue to the Book of Job, and in Zech. iii., Satan is spoken of in terms that show that he is no longer merely a servant of YHWH, but …is, rather, a persecutor of man, actuated by personal motives in making mankind evil and in checking God’s work. In I Chron. xxi. 1, where the word “Satan” appears without the article, we have a new step in the…
    LUCIFER – …Raymund Martin, “Pugio Fidei,” p. 564). The Lucifer myth was transferred to Satan in the pre-Christian century, as may be learned from Vita Adæ et Evæ (12) and Slavonic Enoch (xxix. 4, xxxi. 4), where Satan-Sataniel …Samael?) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived “to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble ‘My power’ on high,” Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his …Ezekiel Opera,” iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being “cast down from heaven” (Rev. xii. 7, 10; comp. Luke x. 18).Bibliography…

     

    So….I don’t think you’ve provided sufficient evidence of one of your primary claims here.  But even if true, this does not make the fallen prince or the rebellious Lucifer a myth or construct.  Different stories and names in different languages abound around the globe.  The point of the UB presentation is how many of these derive from the same source and are about the same event – from creation to fallen angels to prosecutors of men to giants et al.  You seem to be trying to make the point that the UB is merely using comfortable and familiar language to construct a story for our edification rather than narrating a history well known to the authors as contemporaries, witnesses, and participants in the facts known and recorded by those so charged.  And that’s fine with me.  I’m just not convinced of your view by your presentation and it is not important that either of us convinces the other one.  I am enjoying this philosophic discussion as to epochal revelation and human fables of actual events.  Peace.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  7. Very interesting questions (as usual)…..don’t know if I can address these head on but I’ll circle in as best I can. I do believe that all revelation is subject to the mindal capacity and experiential perspective by which it is received and this “limitation” always results in the personalization of both fact and truth. But just because 10 witnesses to any event may have 10 differing recollections/perspectives does not result in 10 facts or events. Our progression in spirit and education/knowledge acquisition through time and experience is the source of the fact that each of us has a unique and partial grasp of everything – including that right before our eyes and that even shared by others, still there are differences in perception. It is this “perception-personalization” limitation that is relevant here and not the difference between literal and figurative IMO. Just because the 10 witnesses above disagree on the shared experience does not make the fact or occurrence figurative rather than literal/factual. It is perception of reality that differs – not reality itself. So yes, I do think the UB is an educational text book of cosmological facts related to Deity and all of creation – a primer or introduction to fact and a guide book into the discovery of truth by the gift of these facts regarding the personages and relationships within the creation of and by Deity. But one must believe a couple of things to come to such a view: this book is my first encounter with even the concept of “epochal revelation” and it claims to be such, the 5th to our world. I never heard of Dalmatia and the Prince, Melchizidek was just some priest of Salem, the Garden was a fable describing creationism (and I believed in creationism but thought the Garden was a fictitious metaphor), and that Jesus’ mission was to show us the WAY to be and live and die and survive in God’s love – but I didn’t have any concept of epochal revelation at the time. So one must believe there is epochal revelation and then believe the book which claims itself to be such a thing is indeed such a thing. Otherwise, there is only one conclusion possible – the UB is not a revelation at all and it hardly matters how one takes it and would be required I think to be viewed as a very interesting book of philosophic religiosity for the truth seeker to interpret for the discovery of hidden meanings delivered by unknown human authors….rather clever ones! Now, if one were to believe in epochal revelation and that the UB is such, then I would conclude (for myself) that the facts presented, despite the limitations of human language and limited mind capacity, perspective, and experience – that the words written would be intentionally factual and as clearly presented as possible given those limitations (which is precisely what the authors state). You recently posted: “Okay, so epochal revelation is reduced to a literal reading.” I agree!! IF this is an epochal revelation THEN it is to be read literally AS BEST as each mind is able. And multiple readings does indeed result in new appreciation and greater meaning TO the individual reading. But it is not my opinion of this that matters nor is it my mission to convince any other to accept my opinion as true for them. Truth is nontransferable from one mortal to another, perhaps even from any creature to any other, including celestial minds. So, the same fact and/or truth will not be different FOR each but differentiated BY each in understanding. This does not make the literal figurative….it makes the literal subject to individualization of perspective – literally!!

    Let me get down to the nitty-gritty of this discussion. Based on your understanding can any of the revelations of the fifth epochal revelation be personalized?

     

    BB

  8. I believe the words chosen by the authors were so chosen for their “basic meaning” as generally defined and accepted to be taken at “face” value, not on any figurative illustrative other meaning. But that’s just me. I reject the complications and the interpretative needs you present as being incorrect in any text book of facts that claims to be epochal revelation by celestial authors.

    Bradly, I can understand your meaning as written, but as you say “But that’s just me”, that is just you, but based on your repeated narrative regarding the Urantia Book, and opposition to other person’s interest to disseminate the text differently than your understanding of the authors “basic meaning” of the context of the Book is historic in nature to your posts, and as you repeatedly state that the text should be open to dissemination is only augmented by your rejection of projected “complications and the interpretative needs” from others who just wish to study the text as is, or was the Bible and other text over history, where which even the Urantia Book is inclusive of Biblical reference, which would imply by its presentation thereof with corrective or alternate “basic meaning” whereas to make corrections would imply errors of any text prior to the text presented in the Urantia Book.  However, being that the Urantia Book was edited by other than Celestial beings, where it also can be assumed that errors are forthcoming from this process, thereby making any literal acceptance at “‘face’ value” subject to figurative interpretation.  If the narration of the Urantia Book actually could be verified with the original notes or transcriptions presented for its editing and publication, then this would remove any shadow of doubt as to its presentation as “epochal revelation by celestial authors.”

    It’s not a mystery book or story book – its a text of cosmological facts, written as plainly and clearly as possible by the authors which will, of course, be approached and discerned and accepted or declined by the individual mind that encounters it.

    I’m not sure how the “Jesus Papers” could be “text of cosmological facts, written as plainly and clearly as possible”, but as the following quote indicates that which was “cosmological facts” was somewhat abridged by admission by the “celestial authors.”

    (1109.2) 101:4.1 Because your world is generally ignorant of origins, even of physical origins, it has appeared to be wise from time to time to provide instruction in cosmology. And always has this made trouble for the future. The laws of revelation hamper us greatly by their proscription of the impartation of unearned or premature knowledge. Any cosmology presented as a part of revealed religion is destined to be outgrown in a very short time. Accordingly, future students of such a revelation are tempted to discard any element of genuine religious truth it may contain because they discover errors on the face of the associated cosmologies therein presented.

    (1109.3) 101:4.2 Mankind should understand that we who participate in the revelation of truth are very rigorously limited by the instructions of our superiors. We are not at liberty to anticipate the scientific discoveries of a thousand years. Revelators must act in accordance with the instructions which form a part of the revelation mandate. We see no way of overcoming this difficulty, either now or at any future time. We full well know that, while the historic facts and religious truths of this series of revelatory presentations will stand on the records of the ages to come, within a few short years many of our statements regarding the physical sciences will stand in need of revision in consequence of additional scientific developments and new discoveries. These new developments we even now foresee, but we are forbidden to include such humanly undiscovered facts in the revelatory records. Let it be made clear that revelations are not necessarily inspired. The cosmology of these revelations is not inspired. It is limited by our permission for the coordination and sorting of present-day knowledge. While divine or spiritual insight is a gift, human wisdom must evolve.

    If the text is limited as to fact, in order to protect the future, then the information presented, although it may be truthful as presented, but would be incomplete whereby anything which is incomplete would be subject to additional figurative speculation as to how it can be incorporated into current or present understanding of “cosmology” and science, so even if fact, how does one assimilate this fact from future obtained fact or truth.

    Also, there are many narrations presented in the Jesus Papers which coincide with known text, and there are also many changes presented as well, but who is to say that what has been presented is the truth, if there is nothing or no one to confirm its information other than by the readers faith as to the specific information to be true.  Why would it be necessary to present specific dates, days of the week, and time of day for many narrations.  Would there be a reason for this precise time line given?  For the most part it has little value for most but might have specific notation for some readers, but still why is the text presented so specifically?  Is it possible it was presented this way for a reason or for someone in particular?

     

  9. BB – I read the reference/link you cite and found some other interesting reading which makes me wonder about your earlier claims. The Israelites certainly did have writings about celestials and the UB clearly states that much of the story of the rebellion and ascendance were tortured by human minds and hands over time. Your source cites the following: Search for “satan” by : 1 2 3 4 Next › Last » SATAN – …likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a …distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or “sons of God,” before the Deity, replying to the …characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men’s sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor… DEVIL – …See Demonology and satan”>Satan…. AHRIMAN – …Parsee doctrine, a god of light and a god of darkness.”Satan” in the Bible. But after the Exile the Jewish mind becomes unable to refer to God, as formerly …everything that has happened and continues to happen in the world. As early as the prologue to the Book of Job, and in Zech. iii., Satan is spoken of in terms that show that he is no longer merely a servant of YHWH, but …is, rather, a persecutor of man, actuated by personal motives in making mankind evil and in checking God’s work. In I Chron. xxi. 1, where the word “Satan” appears without the article, we have a new step in the… LUCIFER – …Raymund Martin, “Pugio Fidei,” p. 564). The Lucifer myth was transferred to Satan in the pre-Christian century, as may be learned from Vita Adæ et Evæ (12) and Slavonic Enoch (xxix. 4, xxxi. 4), where Satan-Sataniel …Samael?) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived “to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble ‘My power’ on high,” Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his …Ezekiel Opera,” iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being “cast down from heaven” (Rev. xii. 7, 10; comp. Luke x. 18).Bibliography… So….I don’t think you’ve provided sufficient evidence of one of your primary claims here. But even if true, this does not make the fallen prince or the rebellious Lucifer a myth or construct. Different stories and names in different languages abound around the globe. The point of the UB presentation is how many of these derive from the same source and are about the same event – from creation to fallen angels to prosecutors of men to giants et al.

    Sons of God were the Cohenim (king and priestly order) to which Satan belonged . Here is a reference to support that idea.

    Exo 22:28,  Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.

    Hebrews believed in “corporeal” beings, which is very different from “celestial” beings. Satan was a malak (messenger), yet corporeal. Concept of “angel” is not supported in Hebrew scripture. They  had no concept of non-material beings or entities existing outside the elements that make up the physical world. We are introduced to these concepts, however, in the forth and fifth epochal revelation. I think you are relying on English translations which slant towards the Christian interpretation.

    … it is not important that either of us convinces the other one. I am enjoying this philosophic discussion as to epochal revelation and human fables of actual events. Peace.

    Indeed. This discussion I hope at least can stir up our thinking processes.

     

     

     

    BB

  10. Let me get down to the nitty-gritty of this discussion. Based on your understanding can any of the revelations of the fifth epochal revelation be personalized?

     

    Me here:  Again, I only speak my own mind and experience and not for or representing any other;  my opinion is that the entirety of the text MUST be personalized for any value or meaning of importance to be forthcoming.  Especially those instructions on how best to progress in the spirit and how to verify such progress.  But I don’t think facts presented are subject to interpretive and are not metaphorical nor figurative.  Additional mythology can, in no way, eliminate error or reduce confusions.  So that claim would be false on its face if then new and more detailed myths and fables were offered in place of those already in hand.

    To your point – ALL truth must be personalized to be true to the person; personalized by experience in living that truth is the only evidence to the person of the truth.  Facts as perceived are always subject to the lense or viewpoint or perspective of the perceiver and will be subtly or profoundly different from individual to individual.  But it is not the understanding or perception of either fact or truth we discuss here – it is its presentation in the Urantia Book that is discussed.  I do not think/believe that the presentation is confusing or mysterious or codified or myth or fabrication or metaphor….I believe (and it took many readings and years of reading to come to such a farfetched and surprising belief) the UB is precisely what it claims to be.  And I could never and would never attempt to convince any other being of that belief that took great effort, both before and after the discovery of the Revelation by me, that this is indeed an epochal revelation authored by celestials and delivered as a gift to our world by the Master who came to be one of us to show us the better WAY….the good news of the Jesusonian gospel of a paternal, loving creator and the family of all creatures, great and small.  Peace Brother.  It really doesn’t matter to such a believer and truth seeker as yourself if the UB is what it claims or not.  I relish the opportunity provided here to discuss such weighty matters of such great interest to us both.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  11. I believe the words chosen by the authors were so chosen for their “basic meaning” as generally defined and accepted to be taken at “face” value, not on any figurative illustrative other meaning. But that’s just me. I reject the complications and the interpretative needs you present as being incorrect in any text book of facts that claims to be epochal revelation by celestial authors.

    Bradly, I can understand your meaning as written, but as you say “But that’s just me”, that is just you, but based on your repeated narrative regarding the Urantia Book, and opposition to other person’s interest to disseminate the text differently than your understanding of the authors “basic meaning” of the context of the Book is historic in nature to your posts, and as you repeatedly state that the text should be open to dissemination is only augmented by your rejection of projected “complications and the interpretative needs” from others who just wish to study the text as is, or was the Bible and other text over history, where which even the Urantia Book is inclusive of Biblical reference, which would imply by its presentation thereof with corrective or alternate “basic meaning” whereas to make corrections would imply errors of any text prior to the text presented in the Urantia Book. However, being that the Urantia Book was edited by other than Celestial beings, where it also can be assumed that errors are forthcoming from this process, thereby making any literal acceptance at “‘face’ value” subject to figurative interpretation. If the narration of the Urantia Book actually could be verified with the original notes or transcriptions presented for its editing and publication, then this would remove any shadow of doubt as to its presentation as “epochal revelation by celestial authors.”

    It’s not a mystery book or story book – its a text of cosmological facts, written as plainly and clearly as possible by the authors which will, of course, be approached and discerned and accepted or declined by the individual mind that encounters it.

    I’m not sure how the “Jesus Papers” could be “text of cosmological facts, written as plainly and clearly as possible”, but as the following quote indicates that which was “cosmological facts” was somewhat abridged by admission by the “celestial authors.”

    (1109.2) 101:4.1 Because your world is generally ignorant of origins, even of physical origins, it has appeared to be wise from time to time to provide instruction in cosmology. And always has this made trouble for the future. The laws of revelation hamper us greatly by their proscription of the impartation of unearned or premature knowledge. Any cosmology presented as a part of revealed religion is destined to be outgrown in a very short time. Accordingly, future students of such a revelation are tempted to discard any element of genuine religious truth it may contain because they discover errors on the face of the associated cosmologies therein presented. (1109.3) 101:4.2 Mankind should understand that we who participate in the revelation of truth are very rigorously limited by the instructions of our superiors. We are not at liberty to anticipate the scientific discoveries of a thousand years. Revelators must act in accordance with the instructions which form a part of the revelation mandate. We see no way of overcoming this difficulty, either now or at any future time. We full well know that, while the historic facts and religious truths of this series of revelatory presentations will stand on the records of the ages to come, within a few short years many of our statements regarding the physical sciences will stand in need of revision in consequence of additional scientific developments and new discoveries. These new developments we even now foresee, but we are forbidden to include such humanly undiscovered facts in the revelatory records. Let it be made clear that revelations are not necessarily inspired. The cosmology of these revelations is not inspired. It is limited by our permission for the coordination and sorting of present-day knowledge. While divine or spiritual insight is a gift, human wisdom must evolve.

    If the text is limited as to fact, in order to protect the future, then the information presented, although it may be truthful as presented, but would be incomplete whereby anything which is incomplete would be subject to additional figurative speculation as to how it can be incorporated into current or present understanding of “cosmology” and science, so even if fact, how does one assimilate this fact from future obtained fact or truth. Also, there are many narrations presented in the Jesus Papers which coincide with known text, and there are also many changes presented ass well, but who is to say that what has been presented is the truth, if there is nothing or no one to confirm its information other than by the readers faith as to the specific information to be true. Why would it be necessary to present specific dates, days of the week, and time of day for many narrations. Would there be a reason for this precise time line given? For the most part it has little value for most but might have specific notation for some readers, but still why is the text presented so specifically? Is it possible it was presented this way for as reason or for someone in particular?

     

    There actually is a reference that speaks to some of your points, Midi (I’m sure you are aware of the quote):

    2 “… English which can be employed to convey such a new concept partially or even with more or less distortion of meaning.”

    The author in the opening admits that some of these revelations are ‘partial’ and ‘distorted of meaning’, nonetheless still worthy to be revealed. I find that very interesting.

     

    BB

  12. So….I don’t think you’ve provided sufficient evidence of one of your primary claims here. But even if true, this does not make the fallen prince or the rebellious Lucifer a myth or construct. Different stories and names in different languages abound around the globe. The point of the UB presentation is how many of these derive from the same source and are about the same event – from creation to fallen angels to prosecutors of men to giants et al. You seem to be trying to make the point that the UB is merely using comfortable and familiar language to construct a story for our edification rather than narrating a history well known to the authors as contemporaries, witnesses, and participants in the facts known and recorded by those so charged. . . .

    Bradly, the only thing that can be established regarding Lucifer in the Urantia Book, is that the UB does not bring any “revelation” regarding Lucifer.  All of the information presented can be taken from known text presented prior to the UB.  Therefore, what new information about Lucifer, as presented in the UB, can you present that cannot be validated in known text from pre UB history.  It would seem that most all of the information presented in the UB about Lucifer has been presented prior to the UB and by this in itself, just might indicate that there must be an advisory placed in any narration and that even the indication of rebellion, could be subject to narrative speculation.  So, other than in narrative stories or historical text, Lucifer did not exist, as was presented.  Besides, as B.B. presented, there is another aspect to the St. Lucifer implication, where who would name their child “Lucifer” or even take on the same name, if it had implied such a character from presented history.  Therefore, there might be something to B.B.’s implication that Lucifer did not exist until St. Lucifer, who would have been considered an advisory to some?

  13. Brooklyn_born wrote:  So then, Bonita, why is it far-fetched to you that the celestial authors  possibly could have used different histories behind the name Lucifer to construct parts of  the rebellion narrative?

    Because the celestial authors did not construct the rebellion narrative.  A construct is an idea or theory containing various conceptual elements, typically considered to be subjective and not based on empirical evidence.  How can a revelation be based upon constructs? Revelation is about truth.

  14. The concept of a fallen angel was foreign to the Jews.

    Perhaps you have not heard of Mastema, the Adversarial Angel, the Lord of Darkness, a violent spirit appearing in the Book of Jubilees, written between 160-150 BC, and the Zadokite Fragments, aka Damascus Document, from 75-50 BC?  Mastema, also known as Mastemoth or Samael,  is another name for Belial and Satan.  The name does not matter, the concept of an evil celestial remains the same.  Mastema was also associated with ancient Egypt instructing Egyptian sorcerers in the art of dark magic.  In other words, this idea dates back much further than the Christian Era.

    There is a scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls titled, “The Angels of Mastemoth and the Rule of Belial”.  It presents Mastema and his angles as rebellious spirits.  These same rebellious angels appear in Enoch, from 300BC, which calls them the Watchers, the fallen angels.

    In the “Testament of Amram,” composed in the first half of the second century BC, it is written:

    “I raised my eyes and looked, one of them was terrifying in appearance, like a serpent, his cloak many-colored yet very dark . . . his appearance, visage like a viper . . . this Watcher, his three names were Belial, Prince of Darkness and King of Evil.”

    From a Luciferian perspective Belial, or whatever name you choose to give him, is the bringer of independence through the force of will.  At Qumran he is considered to be the ruler of the mundane world, the “Lord of this Earth,” an angel of lawlessness. If you recall reading my thread on Zoroastrianism on the old forum, I mentioned the evil spirit, Angro Mainyu as the “Ruler of the World”.  The two are comparable, and this very, very ancient concept of two rulers, evil and good, gave rise to many gnostic beliefs as well. As you can see, the concept of an evil celestial, an enemy of God who tortures mankind is steeped in both mythology and religion.  The two are pretty much inseparable without revelation.

     

  15. Based on your understanding can any of the revelations of the fifth epochal revelation be personalized?

    Revelation is validated ONLY by human experience.  Personal religious experience is the phenomenon of autorevelation.  It consists of two phases.  First, value must be discovered within the human mind; second, the meaning of value must be revealed by the indwelling divine spirit.  It’s a two step personality process including the both the creature and the Creator.

    If you read the text with a mind not focused on discovering true value, and if you resist the enlightenment of truth by the indwelling Spirit, then you cannot personalize the Fifth Epochal Revelation, or any other revelation, in a manner that is autorevelatory.  What you will get is something else, purely human and purely adjutant in quality.  It may seem mysterious and enchanting to the adjutant mind, but it is not necessarily real or true.  I think there is a tendency of the human mind to want to read text, which is pregnant with spiritual meaning, in such a way as to look for mystical, or hidden meanings.  This is called allegory.  Revelatory texts are not meant to be allegorical.  Secret, hidden meanings are not part of revelation.  Revelation is the recognition of reality and reality is not a mystical secret.

     

  16. Concept of “angel” is not supported in Hebrew scripture. They  had no concept of non-material beings or entities existing outside the elements that make up the physical world.

    Not sure where you get your information from BB, but that statement is untrue.   During the Babylonian exile the Jews were exposed to many Persian theology of duality, good and evil, which further solidified the idea that God punishes sin and rewards righteousness. Combined with the Persian belief in the soul, dreams, visions, revelations, angels, the resurrection of the dead and a Judgment Day, a fragile structure of new beliefs began to take form. It also explains the reason why the rewritten history of the Jewish people took on such a fantastic, magical and mystical form during this period, and why it led to apocalypticism.

    The idea of a Judgment Day, messiahs and delivery from evil eventually lead to the Maccabean Revolt (167-160 BC). This is the time when the scribes and priests split into two parties, the Sadducees and the Pharisees, and also when the Essenes appeared.  Everyone knows that the Essenes specialized in teachings about angels. The Sadducees were strict fundamentalists who rejected any religious teachings that were not literally stipulated within the pages of the Pentateuch.  The Pharisees, however, were quite willing to teach what they learned from the Persians: the validity of the resurrection of the dead, the afterlife, the immortality of the soul, fate, final judgment and the existence of angels and demons.  The Sadducees and Pharisees were always at odds with one another.  But, as you can see, all of this transpired long before the Christian Era and the appearance of a Saint Lucifer.  The Jews did indeed have a concept of non-material beings.  Only the hardcore fundamentalists denied it, and they were in the minority, becoming extinct with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

  17. Revelation is validated ONLY by human experience. Personal religious experience is the phenomenon of autorevelation. It consists of two phases. First, value must be discovered within the human mind; second, the meaning of value must be revealed by the indwelling divine spirit. It’s a two step personality process including the both the creature and the Creator.

    If you read the text with a mind not focused on discovering true value, and if you resist the enlightenment of truth by the indwelling Spirit, then you cannot personalize the Fifth Epochal Revelation, or any other revelation, in a manner that is autorevelatory. What you will get is something else, purely human and purely adjutant in quality. It may seem mysterious and enchanting to the adjutant mind, but it is not necessarily real or true. I think there is a tendency of the human mind to want to read text, which is pregnant with spiritual meaning, in such a way as to look for mystical, or hidden meanings. This is called allegory. Revelatory texts are not meant to be allegorical. Secret, hidden meanings are not part of revelation. Revelation is the recognition of reality and reality is not a mystical secret.

    Revelation is:

    (1007.1) 92:4.1 Revelation is evolutionary but always progressive. Down through the ages of a world’s history, the revelations of religion are ever-expanding and successively more enlightening. It is the mission of revelation to sort and censor the successive religions of evolution. But if revelation is to exalt and upstep the religions of evolution, then must such divine visitations portray teachings which are not too far removed from the thought and reactions of the age in which they are presented. Thus must and does revelation always keep in touch with evolution. Always must the religion of revelation be limited by man’s capacity of receptivity.

    (1007.2) 92:4.2 But regardless of apparent connection or derivation, the religions of revelation are always characterized by a belief in some Deity of final value and in some concept of the survival of personality identity after death.

    If revelation evolves and is progressive, then if “revelation is truth”, than truth also evolves and is progressive.  Therefore, truth is dynamic, as is revelation, with the evolution in time.  History or metaphysics is then subject to evolution through time and can only be assumed as truth when applied to the present.  If the authors were not constructing a narrative based on historic stories, then why not narrate the actual truth instead of perceived stories.

  18. However, being that the Urantia Book was edited by other than Celestial beings, where it also can be assumed that errors are forthcoming from this process, thereby making any literal acceptance at “‘face’ value” subject to figurative interpretation.

    Every word and punctuation change or edit by humans is well documented and itemized Midi – the UB has not been edited by any mortal in the multiple ways the Bible has been rewritten to actually change the content and meaning.  Most of such edits to the UB are corrections to the transcription process but the whole list is readily available:

    http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/text-standardization?term=revisions#search-jump-result-0

     

    All of the information presented can be taken from known text presented prior to the UB. Therefore, what new information about Lucifer, as presented in the UB, can you present that cannot be validated in known text from pre UB history.

     

    This is a most peculiar assertion.  Granted, the personage of Lucifer, Satan, Caligastia, etc. are not extensive as to individual stories or character (except as relates to the flaws which led to rebellion), but the history presented of the rebellion and the celestial status of these multiple characters has no other source prior to the UB that I am aware of.  I look forward to your validation in known texts that describes these beings accurately and in detail as presented in the UB.

    The importance of the historical presentation to me personally is the way in which the current and historical struggles on-planet came to be.  I never did believe in a war in heaven or fallen angels as I could not fathom a God that would put up with such nonsense.  I also could not understand why we seem so isolated and even abandoned to our self created fate.  Now I know.  Free will is universal and not just a mortal endowment and free will always provide potential for error and even sin itself.  I already knew all choices have repurcussions but did not know that our state of affairs, on a planetary basis, is due to the rebellion and the default (I also did not believe in Adam and Eve except as the creation fable).   Prior to the UB I had already determined for myself that it was simple human laziness and fear that cultivated the belief that sin was a result of “the devil made me do it” or that humans are stained by inherent evil and “the fall of man” primitivisms.  But now I know the devil doesn’t make anyone choose or do anything….my free will is inviolate.  As is Satan’s and Lucifer’s and all others in time and space.  That can cause real trouble, with a capital T!!

    The history given to us in the UB flows with complete logical harmony and consistency and illuminates the causes of those effects we witness and know as our history here.  I have never in all my truth seeking ever read of any explanation of our current and historical reality that even scratches the surface of the actual history as presented in such depth, integrating so many creatures and choices which led us to where we are now.

    I look forward to the historical references you will be providing which detail Satan and Lucifer and their actions and the results of those choices upon humanity and in heaven itself.  Indeed, I will be surprised if there is any human work which even differentiates these distinct individuals or speaks of our fallen prince – as the UB claims humanity has morphed all into one….the Devil.   A singular arch nemesis as though Marvel morphed the Penguin, the Joker, and the Riddler into one character.  Interesting discussion…..

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  19. e where you get your information from BB, but that statement is untrue. During the Babylonian exile the Jews were exposed to many Persian theology of duality, good and evil, which further solidified the idea that God punishes sin and rewards righteousness. Combined with the Persian belief in the soul, dreams, visions, revelations, angels, the resurrection of the dead and a Judgment Day, a fragile structure of new beliefs began to take form. It also explains the reason why the rewritten history of the Jewish people took on such a fantastic, magical and mystical form during this period, and why it led to apocalypticism. The idea of a Judgment Day, messiahs and delivery from evil eventually lead to the Maccabean Revolt (167-160 BC).
    You misunderstood what I wrote, Bonita, or I did not explain myself fully. Angel is a Christian term and concept foreign to Hebrews; Hebrews however believed in “Ha Malakim,”correctly translated as  ‘The Messengers.’ The term angel carries Christian baggage, for instance, non-corporeality, which is foreign to Hebrews. These emissaries of God,  according to the Hebrews, were literal to our plain of existence; they are material beings existing within the elements of the material world.

    This is the time when the scribes and priests split into two parties, the Sadducees and the Pharisees, and also when the Essenes appeared. Everyone knows that the Essenes specialized in teachings about angels. The Sadducees were strict fundamentalists who rejected any religious teachings that were not literally stipulated within the pages of the Pentateuch. The Pharisees, however, were quite willing to teach what they learned from the Persians: the validity of the resurrection of the dead, the afterlife, the immortality of the soul, fate, final judgment and the existence of angels of demons. The Sadducees and Pharisees were always at odds with one another. But, as you can see, all of this transpired long before the Christian Era and the appearance of a Saint Lucifer. The Jews did indeed have a concept of non-material beings. Only the hardcore fundamentalists denied it, and they were in the minority, becoming extinct with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
    Moving forward in history, but particularly, in the run-up to Christianity, you begin to see an adoption of foreign beliefs among the Hebrews.  (eg., Sadducee and Essense doctrine). I explained this in one of the preceding posts.  The point is in Hebrew scripture there is no support of celestial beings, unless someone can show otherwise. Do you know of any Hebrew scripture supporting such idea?

    BB

  20. The point is in Hebrew scripture there is no support of celestial beings, unless someone can show otherwise. Do you know of any Hebrew scripture supporting such idea?

    What is your definition of scripture?  If you’re referring to only the first five books of the Old Testament, then you have a very narrow and fundamental viewpoint. Scripture means sacred writings.  I already supplied you with a number of SACRED writings of the JEWS which talk of celestial beings. Did you read post 11040 where I said the following:

    Perhaps you have not heard of Mastema, the Adversarial Angel, the Lord of Darkness, a violent spirit appearing in the Book of Jubilees, written between 160-150 BC, and the Zadokite Fragments, aka Damascus Document, from 75-50 BC?  Mastema, also known as Mastemoth or Samael,  is another name for Belial and Satan.  The name does not matter, the concept of an evil celestial remains the same.  Mastema was also associated with ancient Egypt instructing Egyptian sorcerers in the art of dark magic.  In other words, this idea dates back much further than the Christian Era.

    There is a scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls titled, “The Angels of Mastemoth and the Rule of Belial”.  It presents Mastema and his angles as rebellious spirits.  These same rebellious angels appear in Enoch, from 300BC, which calls them the Watchers, the fallen angels.

    In the “Testament of Amram,” composed in the first half of the second century BC, it is written:

    “I raised my eyes and looked, one of them was terrifying in appearance, like a serpent, his cloak many-colored yet very dark . . . his appearance, visage like a viper . . . this Watcher, his three names were Belial, Prince of Darkness and King of Evil.”

    From a Luciferian perspective Belial, or whatever name you choose to give him, is the bringer of independence through the force of will.  At Qumran he is considered to be the ruler of the mundane world, the “Lord of this Earth,” an angel of lawlessness. If you recall reading my thread on Zoroastrianism on the old forum, I mentioned the evil spirit, Angro Mainyu as the “Ruler of the World”.  The two are comparable, and this very, very ancient concept of two rulers, evil and good, gave rise to many gnostic beliefs as well. As you can see, the concept of an evil celestial, an enemy of God who tortures mankind is steeped in both mythology and religion.  The two are pretty much inseparable without revelation.

    Clearly what I wrote about above was considered to be sacred writings, or scripture, by the Jews.  Many, if not all of the books were part of the synagogue libraries before the Christian Era.

    126:3.8 While turning all these problems over in his mind, he found in the synagogue library at Nazareth, among the apocalyptic books which he had been studying, this manuscript called “The Book of Enoch”  . . .

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