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The Michael Plan

152 posts · 15 participants · started Jul 20, 2014, 4:07 PM

TUBParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 4:33 AM
I consider Chris to be a regular 7th circler, nothing more. I don’t consider him to be a reservist or a highly advanced human being or anything like that. Sure some people go bananas, but I have met more mentally unstable people who lock themselves away in their home and read TUB all by themselves then I have from people who listen to Chris. Chris is no Vern. There is no human being living or dead other than Jesus who I consider “special”. I don’t consider the apostles special, I don’t consider celebrities special, I don’t consider any human in TUB to be special, and I certainly don’t consider Chris to be special.

Its easy to judge others you have never met. I hope when more people do proclaim the truths of the 5th epochal revelation as Chris does that they don’t get dumped on by people they have never even met. And yes I do believe that any average human being can do what Chris does, I believe he is a very average person. I think it takes an average mind to unlock the truths of TUB. Anyone who is exceptionally well at something IMO will stumble with this book.

Are we so different than Chris? We come on here and attempt to convey the truths of the revelation just as he does. There are records of Chris’ study groups if someone thinks something strange has happened at one of his study groups I think they should post it on here. If he has said something objectionable please post it.
barbaranewsomParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 12:17 PM
Dear friends,

I do not know Chris, but it would be easy for me to contact him and invite him to participate in this forum. However, Jesus’ teaching about grievances in our Father’s family is to first go personally to the individual who concerns us, before taking our concerns to the whole family, much less to the public. Shall we follow that advice?

I am looking forward to meeting Chris sometime. I think all of the aspects of our service in Michael’s Post-Bestowal Age are relevant to the very broad scope of the document my friends and I are now updating, so I would find it helpful in our forum to be open and loving to all who are sharing what they do to contribute to the success of Urantia revelation.

Peace and love,

Barbara
BradlyParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 12:24 PM

Bonita wrote:

Thanks for that fantastic presentation Brad, but I’m still confused. Sorry, but I’ve avoided UB politics for 44 years and I have a lot of catching up to do. I still don’t understand the problem and the need for a “Plan”. It sounds, from what you just presented, that everything is running peachy keen. Are you suspecting that this structure will not withstand the suspected increase in readership? If so why not? Is there some kind of problem between the UAI and the Foundation that I’m not privy to? It sounds that the relationship is functioning quite well. Is there desire for an overarching hybrid organization? I’m not sure I understand the need for that either. Can’t both organizations continue to grow, each doing their jobs, in a marriage type relationship, like the Material Sons and Daughters, working harmoniously toward one goal, side by side?

Me here: No problems I know of or even heard of, no. No worries either as to structure, leadership, or functionality IMO. Responding to growth opportunities is always a challenge and the future is always something to consider. A primary goal is simply to increase study groups and conferences to accommodate the interest around the world and uniting people of different cultures and languages and working with the Foundation to get books shipped to places without any traditional or commercial UB distribution mechanisms. Internationalization presents very interesting challenges!! So does the organization of volunteers and mandatory leadership turnover….both quite important to our structure. I’m very optimistic….as usual.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 1:18 PM
Barbara, you’ve misinterpreted me. I’m not talking about Chris at all. I’m talking the followers, the disciples. I’m talking in general terms about the people devoted to teachers/leaders who turn them into demigods. It has nothing to do with Chris, I thought I made that clear. I don’t even know the guy and I’ve only listed to about 40 minutes of his talks, so I’m not a student of his either.

The whole purpose of bringing it up is as a warning that can be applied to your plan, especially given past events. Don’t ever let one person dominate decision making. Make a counsel, say of twenty-four, responsible for decision making, all with equal votes. I spent yesterday reading about the crazies from the 80’s and can’t believe people let that happen! It’s unbelievable. Again, it’s the followers I blame for that, not the sad sots with screws loose.

And by the way, it would be fantastic if Chris would freely share his knowledge on a forum. If you know him, tell him we’re all anxious to hear from him. I’d love to debate the philosophy vs. religion issue with him. I don’t know, does he debate?
barbaranewsomParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 2:44 PM
Hi Bonita,

Do you know Chris’ students, and have you spoken to them, if they are your concern? If you wish to make a general point about group wisdom and organizational structure, which is what your concern seems to be, I would be more comfortable participating in this forum if negative examples of persons or specific organizations are not brought up .

My personal philosophy of electronic public communication is not to engage in personal criticism of anyone. If I find myself in a string of such threads, I pick up the phone or meet in person as quickly as I can. One of my favorite quotes is from journalist and educator June Kronholz: “Diamonds are forever. Email comes close.”

I offer this only as my personal interpretation of Jesus’ teaching as applied to our forum. Electronic communication is a limited medium, as is hard copy print–voice, facial expression, body language, or in-person personality. Conveying those qualities in writing is difficult, as evidenced by the document my friends and I are revising.

Attempting to apply Jesus’ teachings in organizational practices is an interesting experience, too, especially when there are problems or concerns or be addressed. I am sure we imperfect humans will grow together with all the spiritual resources that are our gifts from God in every moment.

Peace and love,

Barbara
MaraParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 3:00 PM

barbaranewsom wrote:

. . . what I appreciate about the safe environment here is being reasonably sure that my comments will not be forwarded or published without my knowledge or control. . . .

FYI This forum is blog-like, newspaper-like, and what you write here is available to any and every person with a computer or digital devise. You cannot control what people do with what you say here. Your comments can be lifted and published anywhere.
BonitaParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 3:18 PM

Mara wrote:

Your comments can be lifted and published anywhere.

And is that a bad thing?
barbaranewsomParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 3:19 PM
Hi Mara,

Thank you for that clarification. As helpful as it has been for our “Michael’s Plan” document, I may have to rethink the best way to interact with people who inquire about the document. I thought I would try out the forum format to see what it is, how it works, and so forth. I am still thinking about it.

Peace and love,

Barbara
MaraParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 3:22 PM
I gathered Barbara was new to this and thought she should know.
BradlyParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 3:27 PM

Bonita wrote:

But my warning is not for Chris or any other leader/teacher, but to their followers who put them on pedestals and unwittingly contribute to their downfall either by putting too much pressure on them, convincing them of their irreplaceable value to the movement, or fawning, sycophantic behavior.

Me here: Just wanted to point out that it was a student of Chris’ that brought him up, not Bonita. And she immediately de-personalized the issue and her point, with the named individual as a simple representative illustration of a critical difference in the organizational structure of a solo operator and that of member organizations. Her critique is on point and goes directly to my prior inquiry about the “fall from grace” syndrome that all minds and egos are susceptible to. Haven’t read a single disparagement here about Halvorsen personally.

I can report that others on other forums also point out the financial aspect of the “Institute” and the lack of any transparency of the capitalist angle of this “ministry”.   So Bonita’s points of differentiation are not irrelevant to the discussion. The lack of group wisdom and the focus of a singular personality inevitable delivers some outcome potentials that are problematic. And do often arise over time due to audience veneration. It’s easy to start believing all the positive press we might get….ego food and quite tasty!! If poisonous.

I find the applied psychological study of such reality as falling from grace very interesting. How do sincere, knowledgeable, educated, and seemingly balanced persons go off a cliff? Bonita doesn’t say Chris is over the cliff or even near the edge of that cliff…..but that cliff edge does exist and is extremely dangerous.   While I agree with not personalizing arguments or attacking others here – it’s also important to talk through such misunderstandings as this one to allow group discussion and wisdom to find its ever winding way to clarity – especially the actual core issues and topics under discussion.

Scott defends him who has not been offended. Barbara rebukes one who has not transgressed. Shall we not shine the light of inquiry and discuss the words published and the motivations of those held up here by others as examples (which Scott did-not Bonita)?   I applaud all sincere and worthy efforts by any who work to disseminate the Revelation and engage others in discussion and learning. We need teachers. We need to scrutinize teachers…in or outside of organizational formats too. Group wisdom is clumsy and slow and inefficient in its way but the result should diminish the potential for error that is more easily realized by any individual.

I wish Chris well and hopes he has a circle of debaters and confidants to keep him in balance and in check from such potentials. The teachers here are subject to the review and disagreement and scholarly presentation of text by others….it’s two way all the time (well, except when it gets to be a free for all and that’s rare enough). One purpose for my foruming the past years is to learn better to grow bigger ears, seek meaning in words said and unsaid, said well and said poorly, to discover motive within words, and learn how to express myself with less offence. The group self modulates. The pedestal not so much.

Enjoying myself.   Thanks everyone!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 3:31 PM

Bonita wrote:

Mara wrote: Your comments can be lifted and published anywhere. Bonita said, And is that a bad thing?

Me here: Barbara commented prior in a way that also lead me to believe she thought she was posting in a non-public format which is not true. Posts are subject to either name or key word internet searches. Not a bad thing, no, but something to understand when posting. The invisionzone forum was the same as this one in that regard, but not the xenforo forum just retired. Peace

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
barbaranewsomParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 3:32 PM
Hi Mara and all,

I post in forums or in email strings that fit my personal practices for public communication. Wisdom and ethics come into play, not to mention legal matters of libel, as in any newspaper or printed work. It’s a good thing, in my mind, not a bad thing, to be aware of the potential problems of public communication and make my decisions accordingly. All of the different formats and email lists have different policies and practices.

Peace and love,

Barbara
BonitaParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 3:41 PM
And I think that forums open to the public force people to be honest about their opinions and ideas. It’s a really great thing because those opinions and ideas can be challenged and perfected. Only those who fear the challenge or the perfection process would avoid an open and public forum. It seems to me that if you are always honest with yourself and with others, there should be nothing to fear . . . Jesus’ favorite words.

Frankly, I’m disappointed when people don’t challenge my ideas and just let me blabber on without some kind of analysis. It means they are either not paying attention, don’t care, are afraid to voice their opinion, or are sycophants . . . all bad things.

By the way, thanks Bradley for explaining what happened here. I’m so happy you pay attention.
barbaranewsomParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 3:49 PM
Hi all,

I’ll re-read the posts about Chris and his students. I addressed my initial comment and question about Jesus’ teaching to everyone as something I try to follow in these kinds of exchanges. I also said it is just my application of the teaching and asked how others see the exchange about Chris and his work in this regard. You are answering.

One of the difficult things about these written, online forums, is how hard it is to be understood. I certainly didn’t intend to rebuke anyone, but am simply trying to apply Jesus’ teaching as best I can.

At this point, I may have to communicate with someone at UAI about how to proceed in responding to people about the “Michael’s Plan” document.

Peace and love,

Barbara
BonitaParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 3:49 PM

barbaranewsom wrote:

Wisdom and ethics come into play, not to mention legal matters of libel, as in any newspaper or printed work.

Well, since certain organizations have been busy suing everybody for 30 or 40 years, I can see your concern. We do live in a loveless, litigating society, agreed. And everyone is afraid of lawsuits, in that they are so expensive, time consuming and potentially humiliating. But nothing in writing is lawsuit proof. Perhaps we should all pack up and go home, lock the doors and keep to ourselves, or whisper in dark corners only to people who have been fully investigated before considering them friends.

I do confess that the more I participate in these forums, the more discouraged I become concerning this revelation.
barbaranewsomParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 4:08 PM
Hi all,

I joined this forum with the admission that I have not participated in these types of forums in the Urantia movement and that I prefer telephone or face-to-face communication, an honest statement of my personal preferences that have worked well for me in unceasingly active participation in the movement since 1965. It is my personal preference, although I exchange email with people when talking or meeting isn’t possible, or email would be more efficient. But not on personnel matters or other sensitive subjects. In other words, I follow the same practices that I follow professionally.

Speaking of in-person experiences, the recent regional meeting of Midwest USA readers I attended in Madison, WI on “The Parables of Jesus” was a wonderful experience. It occurs to me that Jesus communicated differently in private versus public communication.

Peace and love,

Barbara
BradlyParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 4:27 PM
Welcome to the 21st century!! We have public private conversations now….or are they private public ones?? To express personal beliefs, philosophy, and perspective in such a format requires a new way of thinking…and expressing – especially as we discuss the spirit and the soul and transcendence and not the mundane – this is very personal to every religionist. It is group think and group talk between some who know each other well by a history of multiple topics and posts and those new to the group dynamic.

Group dynamics and group leadership are fascinating topics. Every group dynamic is changed by either the addition of another personality or by the withdrawal of any prior group member. Sometimes, profoundly so but always, incrementally so. It takes some courage and it takes a guarded or less sensitive ego to engage in the foray of discussion, debate, clarification, hurt feelings, defensiveness, assertiveness, and all the elements which move things forward. But those who perservere and adjust to the dynamic also affect the dynamic importantly. Learning to be agreeable to those we disagree with…an important way to learn about myself and others.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 4:35 PM
You are fantastic Bradley in your comprehension of the big picture. I think I’ll elevate you to demigod status. I’m now off to erect a shrine in my backyard dedicated to you. I’m wondering what kind of image you would like me to put there to represent your incredible luminosity. So much to do . . .
MaraParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 4:38 PM
I wonder why this topic has captured so much interest here these past few days? The document is an opinion piece presented by and to a select group of people in 2008. I do not get why so many of you would change the title of it. Seems odd to me. Or to change anything about it – update it or whatever. The group of authors are free to do whatever they want with it. It represents what a few people came up with at the time. And afterwards, a few other people signed on to it. I think the interest here is because it is an opinion piece, and opinions abound about other peoples opinions. I think opinions should be taken with salt. I like the idea of taking the 4th Epochal as a bridge to the 5th. I think that is what Elsie was in part suggesting.

The authors of the Michael Plan may have underlying regrets about the past. I believe they were and still are trying to process what happened 25 years or more ago. Perhaps many are trying to process what happened back then. The Michael Plan is not attractive to me. The book is attractive to me. The original one.
BradlyParticipant
Jul 31, 2014, 4:44 PM

Bonita wrote:

I’m wondering what kind of image you would like me to put there to represent your incredible luminosity. So much to do . . .

A tadpole that spins with a grin and perhaps a tiny pair of feet in back – no, forget the feet. That’s too much like circle counting.

Love you Sister. You always make me smile….or laugh out loud…..and think.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

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