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The Dangers of Democracy

114 posts · 8 participants · started Oct 26, 2017, 1:16 PM

  1. XobehtParticipant
    Nov 1, 2017, 1:19 AM

    Thanks Rick for that education. I knew I had something to learn regarding China.

    It seems that I was making that common mistake of judging the people based on the actions of their government.

    I agree that  1.3 billion people relates to a tremendous amount of potential for spiritual advancements. You are correct that we as UB frontman and frontwomen should be concerned about assisting China with their Religious future. The revelation could see momentum in the east like we’ve never seen before.

     

    I’m really glad you brought this up, great topic.

    Thank you,

    Paul

  2. Richard E WarrenParticipant
    Nov 1, 2017, 10:49 AM
    Xobeht wrote:

    Thanks Rick for that education. I knew I had something to learn regarding China. It seems that I was making that common mistake of judging the people based on the actions of their government. I agree that 1.3 billion people relates to a tremendous amount of potential for spiritual advancements. You are correct that we as UB frontman and frontwomen should be concerned about assisting China with their Religious future. The revelation could see momentum in the east like we’ve never seen before. I’m really glad you brought this up, great topic. Thank you, Paul

    Thanks much for entering the topic, Paul. Yesterday, a quote from a Melchizedek popped up that fortified, in my mind, the importance and need for translations of the UB, in conjunction, of course, with person to person contact.

     …All Urantia is waiting for the proclamation of the ennobling message of Michael, unencumbered by the accumulated doctrines and dogmas of nineteen centuries of contact with the religions of evolutionary origin. The hour is striking for presenting to Buddhism, to Christianity, to Hinduism, even to the peoples of all faiths, not the gospel about Jesus, but the living, spiritual reality of the gospel of Jesus…. 94:12.7 (1041.5)

    .

    Richard E Warren

  3. GeneParticipant
    Nov 2, 2017, 3:00 PM
    Rick Warren wrote:
    Xobeht wrote:

    Thanks Rick for that education. I knew I had something to learn regarding China. It seems that I was making that common mistake of judging the people based on the actions of their government. I agree that 1.3 billion people relates to a tremendous amount of potential for spiritual advancements. You are correct that we as UB frontman and frontwomen should be concerned about assisting China with their Religious future. The revelation could see momentum in the east like we’ve never seen before. I’m really glad you brought this up, great topic. Thank you, Paul

    Thanks much for entering the topic, Paul. Yesterday, a quote from a Melchizedek popped up that fortified, in my mind, the importance and need for translations of the UB, in conjunction, of course, with person to person contact.

    …All Urantia is waiting for the proclamation of the ennobling message of Michael, unencumbered by the accumulated doctrines and dogmas of nineteen centuries of contact with the religions of evolutionary origin. The hour is striking for presenting to Buddhism, to Christianity, to Hinduism, even to the peoples of all faiths, not the gospel about Jesus, but the living, spiritual reality of the gospel of Jesus…. 94:12.7 (1041.5) .

    Of all the truths, meanings, values, facts written in English in TUB and as difficult as some concepts are to comprehend and how much study is required – I remain skeptical about any translation into any other language.

    And keep in mind your quote above: the ennobling message of Michael is the 4th epochal revelation.

    It’s difficult for me to believe the authors of this 5th epochal revelation intended for us to do translations.

    also I reject the idea that democracy is dangerous. Representative government was taught by material sons? It’s people giving into the lure of selfishness and lust for power that’s dangerous.

  4. Gene,

    I’m just curious. If you happened to have been born in the rural countryside of France and did not learn the English language growing up, the 5th epochal revelation to our planet would not be available for you without the French translation of the book.  That wouldn’t bother you?  Do you feel that only those who speak one particular language should be allowed to benefit from TUB?

    Of course, the book was translated in the first place, from the language of Orvonton to the language used by the receiving group in Chicago at the time.  So translating the book is certainly approved by the universe administrators/ those who commissioned the revelation.

  5. GeneParticipant
    Nov 2, 2017, 3:59 PM
    Keryn wrote:

    Gene, I’m just curious. If you happened to have been born in the rural countryside of France and did not learn the English language growing up, the 5th epochal revelation to our planet would not be available for you without the French translation of the book. That wouldn’t bother you? Do you feel that only those who speak one particular language should be allowed to benefit from TUB? Of course, the book was translated in the first place, from the language of Orvonton to the language used by the receiving group in Chicago at the time. So translating the book is certainly approved by the universe administrators/ those who commissioned the revelation.

    You missed my point completely.

  6. Gene wrote:

    You missed my point completely.

    Oh, good!  Care to set me straight?  :-)

  7. GeneParticipant
    Nov 2, 2017, 5:17 PM
    Keryn wrote:
    Gene wrote:

    You missed my point completely.

    Oh, good! Care to set me straight? :-)

    Re-read, can’t state my reservations more plain than I already have.

    its nothing to do with a hypothetical me being borne in France

  8. GeneParticipant
    Nov 2, 2017, 6:21 PM

    I’ll try again to make my point:

    the Urantia book painstakingly came to us in English over many years of hard work by superhuman beings that very carefully chose their words. In reading these words of the English language we get facts, meanings and values, and we get truth. Truth is not the words but it is derived from the words and out intellects and our personalities. Its a no brained to state with confidence that this is the intent of the authors.

    i realize that the desire to spread the revelation around the planet for all to benefit happens. People want this because of their experience with the revelation.

    translating the text into different languages seems at first to be a good way to accomplish this.

    lots of effort has gone into translations so it’s happening.

    but translations of words by humans is suspect in relation to revelation by super human beings. Are we ???? % certain that translated words convey the truths in the revelation? It’s a bit arrogant to make that assumption imho. But I realize I’m in the minority on this issue.

    Eden and Dalamatia could easily be used as patterns to get the word out to a savage public for a different way to think about this.

  9. Thanks, Gene. That helped a lot; now I think I understand and I agree with you that there is no way to be sure that our human translations of TUB into other languages is 100% correct or even fits with the intent of the authors of the revelation.  I guess my feeling on that is, what is the alternative?
    You present a potential alternative:
    Gene wrote:

    Eden and Dalamatia could easily be used as patterns to get the word out to a savage public for a different way to think about this.

    Very interesting possibility.  However, I am unclear as to how doing this would eliminate the problem of translating the TUB teachings into other languages?  Even if we trained up teachers in America/ the Eden/ Dalamatia model, those teachers would need to communicate the teachings and most likely present the written material to their non-English speaking students of the “savage public”, for instance.  You propose that this could “easily” be done but I guess I am once again, no-brained, because I’m still not getting it.

    (Unless your method involves superhuman/ celestial beings doing the work of teaching the public. But, of course, if we were allowed to have celestial beings in physical form ministering to us in a commonplace way on this planet, we wouldn’t be in this mess to begin with.)

  10. BradlyParticipant
    Nov 2, 2017, 7:02 PM

    Just wanted to agree that translations are the reality – well done or ill advised, doesn’t matter to the reality.  I would note that all translations are subject to multiple revisions and new editions and some are in their third or more.  The translations team is expanding and busy at the best translations possible…over time and new reviews/edits and greater scholarship and translating skills.  But it is also true that English was chosen for a reason as Palestine, Joseph, and Mary were chosen.  And regardless of the mandate, like Keryn, I can’t imagine NOT translating such an important text….and China is one of many countries teaching English in school.  Bilingual and multilingual readers might indeed manage the accuracy of all future translations.  From the Foundation’s site:

    “Urantia Foundation is committed to producing high quality translations of The Urantia Book that faithfully represent the English text in all major languages. Thanks to the many dedicated, multi-lingual readers working with the Foundation, the book has been translated into Dutch, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Hungarian, Italian, Korean, Lithuanian, Polish, Portuguese, Russian, Spanish and Swedish, and the books are distributed in countries where these languages are spoken. Chinese, Japanese, and Farsi (Persian) translations are under development. Additional translations by readers as “works of love” are under review and may be published by Urantia Foundation in the future.
    After a translation is printed the work of revising and correcting the translation begins. No translation is ever really finished; there is always room for improvement. Teams of revisers work with the Translation Manager to improve translation already in print. Currently revision teams are working on the Spanish, French, Portuguese, Russian, and Korean texts.”

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  11. GeneParticipant
    Nov 2, 2017, 7:49 PM
    Keryn wrote:
    Thanks, Gene. That helped a lot; now I think I understand and I agree with you that there is no way to be sure that our human translations of TUB into other languages is 100% correct or even fits with the intent of the authors of the revelation. I guess my feeling on that is, what is the alternative?
    You present a potential alternative:
    Gene wrote:

    Eden and Dalamatia could easily be used as patterns to get the word out to a savage public for a different way to think about this.

    Very interesting possibility. However, I am unclear as to how doing this would eliminate the problem of translating the TUB teachings into other languages? Even if we trained up teachers in America/ the Eden/ Dalamatia model, those teachers would need to communicate the teachings and most likely present the written material to their non-English speaking students of the “savage public”, for instance. You propose that this could “easily” be done but I guess I am once again, no-brained, because I’m still not getting it. (Unless your method involves superhuman/ celestial beings doing the work of teaching the public. But, of course, if we were allowed to have celestial beings in physical form ministering to us in a commonplace way on this planet, we wouldn’t be in this mess to begin with.)

    its just an idea based on the fact that Eden and Dalamatia were revealed to us.  There is a reason, it’s not just for the sake of pure history. They were centers for education, with the intent to draw in the finest minds and turn out organized groups to spread the teachings.

    Anyone can extrapolate alternative ideas from these models that are reasonable using imagination, weather or not there is any validity to it.

    however, book translations are the chosen path and that’s a reality. There are many religious entities out there that are realities and they all have some value, translations will have some value.

    someone in the distant future will evaluate based on history.

    if the NT Bibles (plural for a reason) are any example of editing and translating, I think anyone can see a problem as the authors of TUB made the decision to re-tell the 4th epochal revelation to clarify. Maybe TUB may need the same retelling in a couple thousand years??

  12. BonitaParticipant
    Nov 2, 2017, 10:21 PM

    Although I do worry about corruption of the text by translation, I’m more freaked out by corruption of the text by those people who claim English to be their native language.  Sorry to say, I’ve seen my share of it . . . and apparently it can’t be stopped either.

  13. Van AmadonParticipant
    Nov 3, 2017, 1:25 AM

    Oh what to do?

    God help us all.

    (Please)

     

     

  14. GeneParticipant
    Nov 3, 2017, 1:47 AM
    Van Amadon wrote:

    Oh what to do? God help us all. (Please)

    getting my own house in order is just about more than I can handle

    if I could do that maybe someone would notice and I would have a possible for intro to TUB.

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