The Dangers of Democracy

114 posts · 8 participants · started Oct 26, 2017, 1:16 PM

1. M

   MaraParticipant
   Oct 26, 2017, 9:26 PM

   Bonita wrote: Yup, I agree.  It’s all in good fun.

   Thanks so much for clearing that up.  I never would have guessed it was all in good fun.

   Gene wrote:

   all distractors to real democracy and true liberty.

   Democracy is a group thing, and operates under the rule of law. But true liberty has to do with the individual, and operates to the extent the individual cooperates with the will of God, worships God and serves his fellows.  True liberty has to do with God.  It’s the reward of evolutionary progress.

   Definition of true liberty:

   54:2.5   [. . . ] true liberty, the right to love and be loved, the privilege of worshiping God and of serving his fellows.

   54:1.2  True liberty is the quest of the ages and the reward of evolutionary progress. False liberty is the subtle deception of the error of time and the evil of space. Enduring liberty is predicated on the reality of justice — intelligence, maturity, fraternity, and equity.

   .

   54:1.6  True liberty is the associate of genuine self-respect; false liberty is the consort of self-admiration. True liberty is the fruit of self-control; false liberty, the assumption of self-assertion. Self-control leads to altruistic service; self-admiration tends towards the exploitation of others for the selfish aggrandizement of such a mistaken individual as is willing to sacrifice righteous attainment for the sake of possessing unjust power over his fellow beings.

   Whereas the survival of democracy. . .

   71:2.19   [. . .] is dependent on successful representative government; and that is conditioned upon the practice of electing to public offices only those individuals who are technically trained, intellectually competent, socially loyal, and morally fit. Only by such provisions can government of the people, by the people, and for the people be preserved.

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   71:2.1  Democracy, while an ideal, is a product of civilization, not of evolution.

   .

   Democracy isn’t a product of evolution?

    .

   The dictatorial political state. . .

   195:8.4   […]The tyrannical and dictatorial political state is the direct offspring of scientific materialism and philosophic secularism. Secularism no sooner frees man from the domination of the institutionalized church than it sells him into slavish bondage to the totalitarian state. Secularism frees man from ecclesiastical slavery only to betray him into the tyranny of political and economic slavery.
2. G

   GeneParticipant
   Oct 27, 2017, 3:20 AM

   Liberty must be relative otherwise we would not be talking about it and people would have never given up everything to have it on any level – true or almost true.

   The democracy that at one time embraced liberty is rapidly becoming history.

   So typical of Urantia evolution:  one baby step forward and ten giant steps back. Oh how I really try to see the big picture.

3. RE

   Richard E WarrenParticipant
   Oct 27, 2017, 11:22 AM

   .

   Thanks all for taking the time to respond. Hearing your take on these things always broadens understanding and reflects the wonderful diversity of not just us, but all of humanity.

   .

   I want to reply to a couple of comments made. First I want say that no one caught the crux of my intention in posting this topic, that is, the importance of the Mandarin translation. I probably should take most of the blame, for mislabeling it, The Dangers of Democracy.

   .

   As I see it, China now has the ingredients and competent leadership to accomplish its goal of becoming a, if not the, global superpower by 2050. The one thing it doesn’t have is a broad-based, God-centered, religion worthy of such a goal. The UB was intended for all the world. And one of the most important tasks, in my opinion, of our generation of readers, is translation. My greatest concern in this regard, about the global dissemination of the Urantia Papers, is that we are dilatory in translating them. We all know what a difference the UB made in our individual lives. That difference can be, must be, taken to the global level.

   .

   Secondly, my opinion that the American experiment with democratic rule is failing was neither pessimistic nor gloomy. I believe it was merely factual, as Keryn rightly discerned. As a lifelong global observer, the trends have become obvious. The Pax Americana, like the Pax Romana did in its day, rose, peaked, and now falls. To verify this one needs look no farther than the five dangers of democracy the Melchizedek lays out in Paper 71. On each point Western style democratic rule is devolving into populism and flirting with autocracy. No doubt humanity will someday achieve true representative government, but only when the individual and his nation eschews banality, acquires the wisdom to chose competent leaders, understands the purpose and goals of social organization, takes seriously the power and responsibility of the vote, and is not swayed by populist demagoguery.

   .

   I wish Western style democracy was not failing, and that I am wrong to predict its imminent demise. The next few years should reveal the true direction that global governmental organization is taking. I have a decade or two left to live on Urantia, or less. One never knows. But my grandchildren have six or seven left. I pray for their strength and forbearance. Surely many difficult decisions, many trying circumstances lay in Urantia’s path. The main one, I think, has to do with the preeminence, or the degradation, of Truth. Truth with a capital T.

    

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   Richard E Warren

4. B

   BonitaParticipant
   Oct 27, 2017, 12:15 PM

   Still can’t agree with your assessment of western style democracy Rick, whatever you think that is.  I’m seeing the situation turned completely the other way.  I think we are now starting to go forward instead of backward.  Just the beginnings of it though.  I have to say it is still fragile, but I’m filled with optimism for the first time in decades.  I think you are wrong and there’s no need for wishful thinking.  Hope is alive!

5. B

   BonitaParticipant
   Oct 27, 2017, 1:05 PM

   Rick Warren wrote:

   On each point Western style democratic rule is devolving into populism . . .

   How are you defining populism and why do you think it is a devolution?

6. RE

   Richard E WarrenParticipant
   Oct 27, 2017, 1:23 PM

   Bonita wrote:

   Rick Warren wrote:

   On each point Western style democratic rule is devolving into populism . . .

   How are you defining populism and why do you think it is a devolution?

   This, from Wikipedia, fits my definition:

   …appearing to empathize with the public through rhetoric or unrealistic proposals in order to increase appeal across the political spectrum.

   Do you not see that as devolution from the ideals of representative governance? Or at least as debasement?

   .

   Richard E Warren

7. B

   BonitaParticipant
   Oct 27, 2017, 1:49 PM

   Thanks for the response.  The dictionary definition of populism is the following:

   • support for the concerns of ordinary people: it is clear that your populism identifies with the folks on the bottom of the ladder | the Finance Minister performed a commendable balancing act, combining populism with prudence.
   • the quality of appealing to or being aimed at ordinary people

   Don’t you think support for the concerns of ordinary, average people are important?  When Jesus lived on earth, didn’t he live his life as an ordinary person?  Why do you think God and the universe insist that their divine Sons live ordinary lives? Why did Michael himself insist on appearing as an average man? Why was an average, ordinary couple chosen for his incarnation?

   20:6.2 From a material viewpoint, these human-divine Sons live ordinary lives with just one exception: They do not beget offspring on the worlds of their sojourn; that is a universal restriction imposed on all orders of the Paradise bestowal Sons.

   122:1.3 It was the plan of Michael to appear on earth as an average man, that the common people might understand him and receive him; wherefore Gabriel selected just such persons as Joseph and Mary to become the bestowal parents.

   119:7.7 Jesus’ human parents were average people of their day and generation, and this incarnated Son of God was thus born of woman and was reared in the ordinary manner of the children of that race and age.

   Populism is about ordinary and average people.  Aren’t we told in TUB to encourage the average man because he is the backbone of civilization?

   68:6.11 Will Urantia rulers have the insight and courage to foster the multiplication of the average or stabilized human being instead of the extremes of the supernormal and the enormously increasing groups of the subnormal? The normal man should be fostered; he is the backbone of civilization and the source of the mutant geniuses of the race.

   82:6.5 Race mixtures of the average or superior strata of various peoples greatly increase creative potential, as is shown in the present population of the United States of North America.

    

    

    

    

8. VA

   Van AmadonParticipant
   Oct 27, 2017, 1:55 PM

   Thank you for this thread Rick.

   I have to agree with Bonita’s stand on this issue. We’re moving forward, not backward.

   Here’s the first definition Google provides for “populism” and is in my opinion what’s driving the political situation regarding Western Democracy in our time.

    

   pop·u·lism

   ˈpäpyəˌlizəm/<input height=”14″ src=”data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABwAAAAcCAQAAADYBBcfAAABN0lEQVR4AZ3UT4vNYRwF8M+dieS3uNtb7r1lKZPNTNlMWY13gDeBrih7L2A2yka2ItlZYWGrjBJF+VdYjEJTFsI1x9qTX/Ptfp716dmc71m2tzfGPvmibAaI+OOmiZLTdgERETtO2dMJPwVwzHVzEbsu64cVOyIAWPNCRJzVa+yjNEGGHoj4bd1/DT2XNgg6WyJeO6Blv0fSE2Tqu4iZxsBtaYPuOQTgkogPlgGATWmDiG1HAZ1vIjZI/wNEvNMBronYXFJz2HnAQ3C8+mM8BUxEbA9EvwEI+OEg2OcX5ksWVA++AozA13rwDmANvK0G37sK2ACPawX4bKUpwMlK5e4aAbjYVG6xktfP6klzVqVD7twXMbdenw5WPRMR5+pjtepG/1jV5vGMkgv/DPItU3XgpSuOaPwFsUTQA47vSZQAAAAASUVORK5CYII=” type=”image” width=”14″ />

   noun

   1. support for the concerns of ordinary people.

      “it is clear that your populism identifies with the folks on the bottom of the ladder”

      • the quality of appealing to or being aimed at ordinary people.

    

   Ordinary people have “had it” with being told their racist, uneducated, and treated as if they’re not able to see the blatant crimes being committed by their government representatives.

   The people are just cleaning their house.

    

    

    

    

9. RE

   Richard E WarrenParticipant
   Oct 27, 2017, 1:58 PM

   Bonita wrote in part:

   Don’t you think support for the concerns of ordinary, average people are important? When Jesus lived on earth, didn’t he live his life as an ordinary person?

   Too bad his kind of populism isn’t popular, hasn’t even been tried according to UB.

   Richard E Warren

10. G

    GeneParticipant
    Oct 27, 2017, 2:04 PM

    …appearing to empathize with the public through rhetoric or unrealistic proposals in order to increase appeal across the political spectrum.<sup id=”cite_ref-2″ class=”reference

    The person doing that was defeated.

    People who lust for power stick out like a sore thumb and should be removed from politics. It’s not to difficult to sense altruism in our leaders.

     

     

11. RE

    Richard E WarrenParticipant
    Oct 27, 2017, 2:09 PM

    Van Amadon wrote:

    Thank you for this thread Rick. I have to agree with Bonita’s stand on this issue. We’re moving forward, not backward. Here’s the first definition Google provides for “populism” and is in my opinion what’s driving the political situation regarding Western Democracy in our time.

    pop·u·lism

    ˈpäpyəˌlizəm/<input height=”14″ src=”data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABwAAAAcCAQAAADYBBcfAAABN0lEQVR4AZ3UT4vNYRwF8M+dieS3uNtb7r1lKZPNTNlMWY13gDeBrih7L2A2yka2ItlZYWGrjBJF+VdYjEJTFsI1x9qTX/Ptfp716dmc71m2tzfGPvmibAaI+OOmiZLTdgERETtO2dMJPwVwzHVzEbsu64cVOyIAWPNCRJzVa+yjNEGGHoj4bd1/DT2XNgg6WyJeO6Blv0fSE2Tqu4iZxsBtaYPuOQTgkogPlgGATWmDiG1HAZ1vIjZI/wNEvNMBronYXFJz2HnAQ3C8+mM8BUxEbA9EvwEI+OEg2OcX5ksWVA++AozA13rwDmANvK0G37sK2ACPawX4bKUpwMlK5e4aAbjYVG6xktfP6klzVqVD7twXMbdenw5WPRMR5+pjtepG/1jV5vGMkgv/DPItU3XgpSuOaPwFsUTQA47vSZQAAAAASUVORK5CYII=” type=”image” width=”14″ />

    noun

    1. support for the concerns of ordinary people.

       “it is clear that your populism identifies with the folks on the bottom of the ladder”

       • the quality of appealing to or being aimed at ordinary people.

    Ordinary people have “had it” with being told their racist, uneducated, and treated as if they’re not able to see the blatant crimes being committed by their government representatives. The people are just cleaning their house.

    .

    You’re welcome Van. Bonita posted that too. We should see soon enough, whether the house is being cleaned or demolished.

    .

    Richard E Warren

12. RE

    Richard E WarrenParticipant
    Oct 27, 2017, 2:15 PM

    Gene wrote:

    People who lust for power stick out like a sore thumb and should be removed from politics.

    We agree on that, Gene. Gerrymandering and the extreme difficulty of constitutional reform make it all but impossible.

    .

    .

    Richard E Warren

13. B

    BonitaParticipant
    Oct 27, 2017, 2:18 PM

    Rick Warren wrote:

    Too bad his kind of populism isn’t popular, hasn’t even been tried according to UB.

    That was as of the 1930’s.  It’s 2017.

14. VA

    Van AmadonParticipant
    Oct 27, 2017, 2:33 PM

    I know it’s a hot potatoe, but one of the most significant things the revelators tell us, in my opinion, is that there’s a very important distinction between superior and inferior human beings. They make it clear this distinction occurs amongst racial groups and within these groups individually, irrespective of the group standing overall, one way or another.

    I see that this is where the problem lies fundamentally. We have criminals masquerading as leaders who are very busy promoting tolerance for all and its hidden agenda, universal suffrage, for their personal self-serving benefit in spite of how detrimental it is to the proper functioning of government.

    This a terrible problem that’s getting worse. Ordinary people understand this and are now doing something about it.

    I see the Spirit of Truth playing the greatest role in this scenario. To me, we’re actually entering that stage in social evolution where the teachings of Jesus are being taken serious like never before, and this is true due to the functioning and response by ordinary people to the Spirit of Truth.

     

     

     

15. RE

    Richard E WarrenParticipant
    Oct 27, 2017, 2:34 PM

    Rick Warren wrote:

    Too bad his kind of populism isn’t popular, hasn’t even been tried according to UB.

    Bonita wrote: That was as of the 1930’s. It’s 2017.

    Point taken. Hope you’re right. We can judge by the fruits of the spirit ripening.

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    Richard E Warren

16. G

    GeneParticipant
    Oct 27, 2017, 2:35 PM

    I don’t get the China idea. Aren’t we rebuilding our military after 8 years of demise? Is it military might that worries you? Is it military might that defines a nation that is respected as leader? Does China have an immigration problem? Anything China has that makes you want to move there?

    the possibility of liberty, even if it is currently stressed and corrupted is a powerful appeal and the populist half of the nation is trying to make it better.

     

17. RE

    Richard E WarrenParticipant
    Oct 27, 2017, 2:40 PM

    Van Amadon wrote in part:

    …I see the Spirit of Truth playing the greatest role in this scenario. To me, we’re actually entering that stage in social evolution where the teachings of Jesus are being taken serious like never before, and this is true due to the functioning and response by ordinary people to the Spirit of Truth.

    .

    From your keyboard to Michael’s ear! Spirit fruits will be the evidence of that evolution.

    .

    Richard E Warren

18. B

    BonitaParticipant
    Oct 27, 2017, 2:53 PM

    Rick Warren wrote:

    You’re welcome Van. Bonita posted that too. We should see soon enough, whether the house is being cleaned or demolished.

    Doesn’t it depend on what house you’re referring to?  Yeah, some things will get demolished.  That’s what happens with evolution.  Lots of useless things get discarded.  People who hold dear to useless things will obviously think the world is coming to an end.  This is what makes the modern age such a treacherous one.  The scaffolding folks build in order to create their world view is shorter lived than in the past.  The speed of change is increasing and when that scaffolding collapses, it can be very dangerous if there isn’t a support under it.  This is where religion is supposed to come in.  And the good news is that religion is alive despite being bashed and beaten up over the past few decades by secular humanism.

    When folks suffer collapse of their scaffolding they naturally panic.  It’s a scary, fearful thing.  Some protest, some riot, some run scared.  But none of that would be necessary if they had true religion. What would it matter to a person if their whole world collapses if they have Truth (with a big T)?  What we’re seeing in the news is a lot of chaos from those who are experiencing a collapse of scaffolding. It has little to do with the collapse of western civilization, just the collapse of an ideology that didn’t work out because it wasn’t based on Truth, it could not be acted out in reality. And these false ideologists will undoubtedly continue to bang their heads against the wall of reality, making a bigger and bigger racket, causing more and more unrest and spreading more and more anger, which gets them nowhere. Better known as the definition of insanity.

    But what the modern world needs is stability so it can focus on ideals and build a lasting culture.  We are evolving to a higher culture and that is something that cannot happen without superior thinking and new ideas.  New ideas always seem to upset the wagon cart, so until we arrive at a calmer time (which we’re told will take a millennium), there will be tumult and many people will get themselves all upset and panicky over what is essentially nothing.

    50.6.4  Culture presupposes quality of mind; culture cannot be enhanced unless mind is elevated. Superior intellect will seek a noble culture and find some way to attain such a goal. Inferior minds will spurn the highest culture even when presented to them ready-made. Much depends, also, upon the successive missions of the divine Sons and upon the extent to which enlightenment is received by the ages of their respective dispensations.

    66.6.1  The degree of a world’s culture is measured by the social heritage of its native beings, and the rate of cultural expansion is wholly determined by the ability of its inhabitants to comprehend new and advanced ideas.

    99.1.1 Mechanical inventions and the dissemination of knowledge are modifying civilization; certain economic adjustments and social changes are imperative if cultural disaster is to be avoided. This new and oncoming social order will not settle down complacently for a millennium. The human race must become reconciled to a procession of changes, adjustments, and readjustments. Mankind is on the march toward a new and unrevealed planetary destiny.

    So, the best thing to do is offer folks the good news. Religion and culture go hand-in-hand (79:4.9).  Will printing TUB in Mandarin foster stability worldwide?  Hard to say. Can’t hurt though. But what we really need is ordinary people living ordinary lives in the manner that Jesus did.  Hooray for the ordinary men and women on this planet who just want to live their lives with God at the center of it!

    99:1.3  Urantia society can never hope to settle down as in past ages. The social ship has steamed out of the sheltered bays of established tradition and has begun its cruise upon the high seas of evolutionary destiny; and the soul of man, as never before in the world’s history, needs carefully to scrutinize its charts of morality and painstakingly to observe the compass of religious guidance. The paramount mission of religion as a social influence is to stabilize the ideals of mankind during these dangerous times of transition from one phase of civilization to another, from one level of culture to another.

     

     

19. RE

    Richard E WarrenParticipant
    Oct 27, 2017, 2:54 PM

    Gene wrote:

    I don’t get the China idea. Aren’t we rebuilding our military after 8 years of demise? Is it military might that worries you? Is it military might that defines a nation that is respected as leader? Does China have an immigration problem? Anything China has that makes you want to move there? the possibility of liberty, even if it is currently stressed and corrupted is a powerful appeal and the populist half of the nation is trying to make it better.

    .U

    Seems like military might means less and less everyday as cyber power takes over. But China’s big advantage now is its gathering unity coupled with its family centric ethic.  Hope you’re right about it getting better, and that the West can remain a leading influence in family building and intelligent governance. I am concerned, and I think we all share that, as evidenced on this thread.

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    Richard E Warren

20. M

    MaraParticipant
    Oct 27, 2017, 2:57 PM

    Jesus was not a social or political reformer.  He did counsel that wealthy man who asked for his advice.  But I found these interesting comments he made on behalf of a poor man who had been falsely accused.  He’s talking about justice as the foundation of civil government.  He talks about a sacred duty . . ..

    132:4.8   Meeting a poor man who had been falsely accused, Jesus went with him before the magistrate and, having been granted special permission to appear in his behalf, made that superb address in the course of which he said: “Justice makes a nation great, and the greater a nation the more solicitous will it be to see that injustice shall not befall even its most humble citizen. Woe upon any nation when only those who possess money and influence can secure ready justice before its courts! It is the sacred duty of a magistrate to acquit the innocent as well as to punish the guilty. Upon the impartiality, fairness, and integrity of its courts the endurance of a nation depends. Civil government is founded on justice, even as true religion is founded on mercy.”

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