The Dangers of Democracy

114 posts · 8 participants · started Oct 26, 2017, 1:16 PM

1. K

   KerynMember
   Oct 28, 2017, 8:16 PM

   Bonita wrote:

   I’m interested in discussing #4, since that is what protesters claim they are doing, exercising their right to free speech.  The quote recommends freedom of all forms of expression.  Is that meant to include violence . . . violence in either word or deed?

   Isn’t it obvious that violence of any kind would not be recommended?  Does anyone really recommend violence as a way of governing people, ideally?  We are told in paper 44 that “Harmony is the speech of Havona”.  We also know that in paper 132, Jesus is quoted as saying the following to someone who was speaking in the public forum:

   If you could only enjoy the inspiring satisfaction of knowing God as your spiritual Father, then you might employ your powers of speech to liberate your fellows from the bondage of darkness and from the slavery of ignorance.

   When the freedom of speech involves expressing ideas that others are hostile toward or do not wish to hear, violence can certainly be an outcome.  But I don’t think that’s because freedom of speech endorses or condones violence; it’s because human nature resorts to it when stressed and upset.

   Edited to add:  here is an article in Psychology Today that explains, in part:

   “Protests are usually triggered by a social injustice, whether that is an injustice towards an individual or a group.  As a protest gets larger, there is an increased chance that there will be a handful of people resorting to violence and destruction.  This is just a fact of our society– there are always a small number of people for which antisocial behavior is the norm. 

   Taking into account crowd psychology, those few violence-prone individuals can trigger a crowd of violent behavior. Groups afford people the anonymity to engage in behavior they wouldn’t engage in otherwise. A group’s behavior is more likely to help an individual justify going outside of their moral code.”

2. B

   BonitaParticipant
   Oct 29, 2017, 2:39 PM

   Keryn wrote:

   When the freedom of speech involves expressing ideas that others are hostile toward or do not wish to hear, violence can certainly be an outcome.

   Exactly! and it is a sure sign of immaturity.  This brings us back to Rick’s list of dangers.  If the populace lacks self-control, isn’t that evidence of mediocrity?  If a person, or group of persons, cannot tolerate other people expressing their opinions without emotional outbursts, then that person, or group of persons, is immature, mediocre, poorly educated and indolent (lacking self-control).  That’s what they call a mob, and I see absolutely no excuse for it.  If people are going to go out and express themselves with passion, then they need to have control over their emotions.  Freedom of expression is not just a one-way exercise either, it requires tolerance of others expressing themselves, even if they give expression to everything you despise. The universe allowed Lucifer and his minions to express themselves without a single temper tantrum.  It’s irresponsible to chalk immaturity up to animal spirits, which is nothing more than scapegoating . . . childish.

   Our culture seems to glorify the immature.  When grown-ups arrive on the scene, they are vilified, criticized and condemned for not being open minded and tolerant, (which is exactly what my pre-teen children used to whine about when I laid down the hammer).  We are experiencing a very vocal generation of unusually immature young adults who have been taught that their feelings have vital importance. Social media has sensationalized puerile outbursts and insipid whining to levels of unparalleled gravity and this is rather destabilizing, which is why I think Rick may be feeling so pessimistic.  He is correct in that the Asian cultures glorify their older generations, which are presumably more mature.  In that regard they do have the upper hand, but even that is not without its own significant problems.

   Keryn wrote:

   “Protests are usually triggered by a social injustice, whether that is an injustice towards an individual or a group.”

   I think many protests are triggered by perceived causes of social injustices. Some are simply fallacious.

   86:7.4 But while men are giving up the erroneous doctrine of a spirit cause of the vicissitudes of life, they exhibit a surprising willingness to accept an almost equally fallacious teaching which bids them attribute all human inequalities to political misadaptation, social injustice, and industrial competition. But new legislation, increasing philanthropy, and more industrial reorganization, however good in and of themselves, will not remedy the facts of birth and the accidents of living. Only comprehension of facts and wise manipulation within the laws of nature will enable man to get what he wants and to avoid what he does not want. Scientific knowledge, leading to scientific action, is the only antidote for so-called accidental ills.

    

3. K

   KerynMember
   Oct 29, 2017, 3:10 PM

   I agree wholeheartedly.

4. G

   GeneParticipant
   Oct 29, 2017, 5:59 PM

   I do want to apologize for allowing old resentments to come out with feelings and emotions that show my immaturity.

   thank those that are here who participate on a higher level.

5. VA

   Van AmadonParticipant
   Oct 29, 2017, 6:22 PM

   Gene,

   If I may be so bold, you ARE participating at the highest level.

    

    

6. G

   GeneParticipant
   Oct 29, 2017, 11:45 PM

   This isn’t happening.

   (763.2) 68:0.2 Civilization is a racial acquirement; it is not biologically inherent; hence must all children be reared in an environment of culture, while each succeeding generation of youth must receive anew its education. The superior qualities of civilization — scientific, philosophic, and religious — are not transmitted from one generation to another by direct inheritance. These cultural achievements are preserved only by the enlightened conservation of social inheritance

   multiculturalism kills this in its tracks.

   beyond not passing on the superior qualities of our civilization, it’s getting harder to find people with basic skills that have nothing to do with smart phones or computers.

   In fact, the interest in basic skills is just about nonexistent in millennials

   one day people may need to re-figure how to make flint tools.

7. X

   XobehtParticipant
   Oct 30, 2017, 3:35 AM

   Fascinating discussion.

    

   Rick, could you please give us some details on why China could become the next super power?

   I recently had a discussion with someone from China and he was hoping to recruit Americans in the battle within China regarding human rights violations. Specifically, the forced removal of human organs from the prison population. If you are in need of a kidney, you’re on a waiting list but, not in China… you can get that organ in short order.

   I’m puzzled how any country that does not allow freedom of religion could become a super power.

   It seems to me that the main reason the United States has been the world leader is directly related to the fact that we have adopted, as our own, the world’s most progressive religion as our foundation.

   Just like you, I’m really appalled at the trends I see happening in our nation. However, I can’t say that these trends are pandemic or that they are lasting. I just don’t know. Maybe you could elaborate more about the plight of the country as you see it.

   I am fascinated by the idea of another country with the ability to displace the US. What do they have going for them? Prior to this thread I was of the opinion that China was worse than Russia from a political ethics standpoint. No regard for intellectual property rights, human rights, environmental protection, etc.

   Am I  wrong when I am of the opinion that regardless of what country you compare us to, it is still the USA that plays by the rules far and above our allies or enemies. Did we not make the rules? We set the standards during wartime and our press holds us under the microscope while our enemies commit war crimes with impunity.  Just one example.

    

   So, that’s what I’m thinking. Somehow, our internal struggles–the battle of the right and left. The expansion of the debt and deficit, the problems with wealth divisions and all, seem to be inherent in the modern era. Struggles indicative of the pace of progress– and I don’t know or think that they are catastrophic.

   I’m not a news junkie, too much sensationalism for my taste and far too much lean towards “If it bleeds it reads” for me to be interested. Perhaps you could educate us on what you’ve discovered that impresses you about China.

   I have read through the entire thread, I hope I haven’t missed something.

    

   Thanks,

   Paul

8. RE

   Richard E WarrenParticipant
   Oct 30, 2017, 8:35 AM

   Hi Paul,

   I hope and pray you are right, and I am wrong, for the sake of the unbroken dissemination of the revelation in all the major languages, and for the welfare of my and everyone else’s grandchildren everywhere.

   We agree about the short-sighted, designedly inflammatory news, but there are competent and reliable news sources that offer deeper insights, like Charlie Rose’s hour long program of interviews that features well informed men and women from the trenches, ones who have proven records of prescience and intelligent discernment. And not for a three minute sound-bite, sometimes for a whole hour. The PBS Newshour is another source that offers in-depth reports without the need-to-bleed. Nearly all the qualified insider experts see China uniting and the West dividing, notwithstanding each sides’ more atrocious faults and behaviors. Consider not just the US and the barren hollowness of the now dominant capitalistic profit motivation, but also England breaking away from Europe, the near civil war in Spain, the reemergence of fascism in Germany, and several other countries there, like Hungary, Poland, et al.

   Since this thread was intended to be about the importance of the Chinese translation of the UB, I wish not to belabor the current political and cultural differences between East and West any more than I already have. Or risk dividing this Forum and alienate my dear siblings here, that they may take up the call for translations rather than be divided over national interests and policies. Suffice it to say, regardless of global trends, your point about China’s religious inadequacies begs for the truths and facts of the revelation we already have in hand. It is our solemn and sacred responsibility to see that all the world’s nations, like Anglophone nations, have easy access to the Urantia Papers, in order that their citizens’ indwelling Adjusters and attending angels can lead them to the truths we know and have been entrusted to share.

    

    

   .

   Richard E Warren

9. G

   GeneParticipant
   Oct 30, 2017, 2:41 PM

   I’ll be the devils advocate

   I do not see fascism in Germany, I see nationalism. I see it as the motivator that is driving England and other nations in Europe to break away from the EU and or push for independence.

   i also see very strong nationalism in China, and-nationalism is the reason China Is more successful at uniting. multiculturalism and open borders is the American path to division.

   people like their own race, heritage, history and culture and want to maintain it. Racial blending will not be forced and be successful.

   Ill ask the question: Why was the Urantia book revealed in English? Are we absolutely certain that translations to other languages are 100% accurate? Should the revelation be translated to other languages? Was that the intention of the authors or the efforts of people who are a little on the fanatic side and want to do the non doable?? Was translations the correct approach to spreading the word?

   Personally I do not trust PBS. If you want to get a good idea of media truth telling try this: read our presidents tweets, listen to his speeches and pay attention to what he does. Now listen to all of the news media channels and make your decision about who relays accurate information.

   I’ll add this disclaimer about relaying accurate information: I took a speech class ages ago, the basic types of speech are persuasive and informative. The challenge was to give a speech that was purely informative. I think it is almost impossible.

10. G

    GeneParticipant
    Oct 30, 2017, 3:05 PM

    Gene wrote:

    I’ll be the devils advocate I do not see fascism in Germany, I see nationalism. I see it as the motivator that is driving England and other nations in Europe to break away from the EU and or push for independence. i also see very strong nationalism in China, and-nationalism is the reason China Is more successful at uniting. multiculturalism and open borders is the American path to division. people like their own race, heritage, history and culture and want to maintain it. Racial blending will not be forced and be successful. Ill ask the question: Why was the Urantia book revealed in English? Are we absolutely certain that translations to other languages are 100% accurate? Should the revelation be translated to other languages? Was that the intention of the authors or the efforts of people who are a little on the fanatic side and want to do the non doable?? Was translations the correct approach to spreading the word? Personally I do not trust PBS. If you want to get a good idea of media truth telling try this: read our presidents tweets, listen to his speeches and pay attention to what he does. Now listen to all of the news media channels and make your decision about who relays accurate information. I’ll add this disclaimer about relaying accurate information: I took a speech class ages ago, the basic types of speech are persuasive and informative. The challenge was to give a speech that was purely informative. I think it is almost impossible.

    as capitalism is being deamonized, let’s do a poll: name your favorite ism.

11. VA

    Van AmadonParticipant
    Oct 30, 2017, 3:40 PM

    Doing the Father’s will ism.

    (will always be learning)

     

     

12. K

    KerynMember
    Oct 30, 2017, 3:40 PM

    Gene asks, “Why was the Urantia book revealed in English?”

    No doubt it was because that is the language that was used by the group that were chosen to assist in its emergence and publication.  But also, the Publication Mandate is very specific about the importance of translations into other languages:

    “Its presence is also required to engage the attention of persons of means who may be thus led to provide funds for translations into other languages.”

    “Thousands of study groups must be brought into existence and the book must be translated into many tongues. Thus will the book be in readiness when the battle for man’s liberty is finally won and the world is once more made safe for the religion of Jesus and the freedom of mankind.”

13. RE

    Richard E WarrenParticipant
    Oct 30, 2017, 4:04 PM

    Van Amadon wrote:

    Doing the Father’s will ism. (will always be learning)

    Good one Van!

    Richard E Warren

14. M

    MaraParticipant
    Oct 30, 2017, 4:48 PM

    Xobeht wrote:

    I’m puzzled how any country that does not allow freedom of religion could become a super power.

    Me too.

    Here are a couple of bits about China for further study.

    64:6.16The survival of comparatively large numbers of the yellow race is due to their intertribal peacefulness. From the days of Singlangton to the times of modern China, the yellow race has been numbered among the more peaceful of the nations of Urantia. This race received a small but potent legacy of the later imported Adamic stock.

    .

    79:8.9The great strength in a veneration of ancestry is the value that such an attitude places upon the family. The amazing stability and persistence of Chinese culture is a consequence of the paramount position accorded the family, for civilization is directly dependent on the effective functioning of the family; and in China the family attained a social importance, even a religious significance, approached by few other peoples.

    .

    94:5.0  5. The Struggle for Truth in China

    The revelators counsel us about how to get to the basis of an estimate of the current status or true perspective of any reality problem, human or divine.

    19:1.6   Even in the study of man’s biologic evolution on Urantia, there are grave objections to the exclusive historic approach to his present-day status and his current problems. The true perspective of any reality problem — human or divine, terrestrial or cosmic — can be had only by the full and unprejudiced study and correlation of three phases of universe reality: origin, history, and destiny. The proper understanding of these three experiential realities affords the basis for a wise estimate of the current status.

    We, I think, are ignorant of the whole picture playing out as regards China and translations of the UB or anything else.  We have our ideals, but mostly we are not privy to God’s plans.   The UB hasn’t been around very long, you know.
15. VA

    Van AmadonParticipant
    Oct 30, 2017, 5:20 PM

    Perhaps the main factor for global social and religious progress is tied up not so much with China, but rather, with the Chinese.

    I say this with how the Chinese have a large immigrant population in several western countries, especially in North America.

    This factor, combined with the eventual racial amalgamation and absorption of Native Americans from both South and North America, specifically in the USA, will eventually become what this world needs to invigorate those things that the world’s people have been struggling with as the result of the default of the planet’s administrators in the past.

    The Brotherhood of Man will not fail, and if this can come together in America, then the people of this continent will eventually take themselves back to the countries of their cultural origin someday to lift it all up. Perhaps according to that proverbial Plan ‘B’ we don’t have a draft for, except for the specific unsuggested suggestions narrated in the UB that is.

     

     

16. RE

    Richard E WarrenParticipant
    Oct 30, 2017, 6:05 PM
     .

     .

    Xobeht wrote: I’m puzzled how any country that does not allow freedom of religion could become a super power.

     

    Mara wrote: Me too.

    
    

    There is some religious freedom in China, including 24 million Christians.
    

    From Wikipedia:

    Freedom of religion is guaranteed by China’s constitution, although religious organizations that lack official approval can be subject to state persecution. The government of the People’s Republic of China is officially atheist. Religious affairs and issues in the country are overseen by the State Administration for Religious Affairs.

    Over the millennia, Chinese civilization has been influenced by various religious movements. The “three teachings“, including Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism (Chinese Buddhism), historically have a significant role in shaping Chinese culture, Chinese folk religion, which contains elements of the three teachings, consists in allegiance to the shen (神), a character that signifies the “energies of generation“, who can be deities of the natural environment or ancestral principles of human groups, concepts of civility, culture heroes, many of whom feature in Chinese mythology and history. Among the most popular folk cults are those of Mazu (goddess of the seas), Huangdi (one of the two divine patriarchs of the Chinese race), Guandi (god of war and business), Caishen (god of prosperity and richness), Pangu and many others. China is home to many of the world’s tallest religious statues, including the tallest of all, the Spring Temple Buddha in Henan.

    Clear data on religious affiliation in China is difficult to gather due to varying definitions on “religion” and the unorganized nature of Chinese religious traditions. Scholars note that in China there is no clear boundary between three teachings religions, Buddhism, Taoism and local folk religious practice. A 2015 poll conducted by Gallup International found that 61% of Chinese people self-identified as “convinced atheist”. According to a 2014 study, approximately 74% are either non-religious or practise Chinese folk belief, 16% are Buddhists, 2% are Christians, and 1% are Muslims. In addition to Han people’s local religious practices, there are also various ethnic minority groups in China who maintain their traditional autochthone religions. Various sects of indigenous origin comprise 2—3% of the population, while Confucianism as a religious self-designation is popular among intellectuals. Significant faiths specifically connected to certain ethnic groups include Tibetan Buddhism and the Islamic religion of the Hui people, also of Uyghur, Kazakh, Kyrgyz and other peoples in the Northwest China.

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#Religion

    Richard E Warren

17. K

    KerynMember
    Oct 30, 2017, 6:17 PM

    Here is a relevant announcement from the April 2017 Urantia Foundation Board of Trustees meeting

    Chinese crowd sourcing fundraiser approved

    Plans are being developed for the launch of a restricted fundraiser for the sole purpose of financing the final phases of the Chinese translation. We estimate needing at least another $135,000 to finish a world-class Chinese translation during the next five years. This translation has been extremely difficult because of the language differences between English and Mandarin Chinese. That said, we are about 50% finished. With over 1.3 billion people living in China and the rapid rise of Christianity there, this is a vital translation for the spiritual transformation of Asia. When this crowd sourcing fundraiser is launched, please generously invest in the spiritual welfare of the Chinese people.

18. RE

    Richard E WarrenParticipant
    Oct 30, 2017, 7:53 PM

    .

    One more note about Christianity in China, from Wikipedia:
    .

    The government formally recognizes five religions: Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Protestantism, and Catholicism (though the Chinese Catholic Church is independent of the Catholic Church in Rome).

    Source/much more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China

    .

     

     

    Richard E Warren

19. G

    GeneParticipant
    Oct 31, 2017, 1:38 AM

    Rick Warren wrote:

    . One more note about Christianity in China, from Wikipedia: . The government formally recognizes five religions: Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Protestantism, and Catholicism (though the Chinese Catholic Church is independent of the Catholic Church in Rome). Source/much more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China .

    With that kind of religious diversity it seems to me like a no-brained for Chinese who are obviously very intelligent, to make the jump to real religion, the religion of personal experience.

    I pray that their UB translation will be the catalyst and I pray that creating their translation was the correct decision.

    I cling to the notion that some sort of UB foundation (not necessarily a church or organization) could materialize in America that would attract people’s of the world analogous to the way that the American promise of life, liberty and the persuit of happiness has a history of doing. This being the dissemination technique intended by the authors, but that’s just my opinion. We shall see.

20. RE

    Richard E WarrenParticipant
    Oct 31, 2017, 8:11 AM

    Gene wrote:

    I pray that their UB translation will be the catalyst and I pray that creating their translation was the correct decision.

    Amen, Grunt.

    .

    Richard E Warren

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