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Religion In Human Experience – Paper 100

235 posts · 9 participants · started Jan 7, 2018, 4:53 PM

  1. It appears from the text that in the finding of the lack in others we have really only discovered our own evil, immaturity, and questionable value!

    Yup.  That’s what TUB says:

    176:3.9 How prone is man, when he is confronted with the failures of his own making, to put the blame upon others, oftentimes upon those who least deserve it!

    I wonder who of us hopes to be judged and forgiven as we do now judge and forgive others?  Or will we learn to seek a greater understanding of and affection for all others to receive such grace and mercy for ourselves?

    We’ve been told that human things must be known in order to be loved.  I would think that includes actual humans, not just their things. Genuine affection for other humans does not come naturally.  We are naturally bellicose animals, something we’re meant to overcome, a task each of us must accomplish within ourselves, and when we do, it affects all.

     

  2. …we are commanded to consider these and seek out the inner light and not judge others harshly (as in claiming 90-99% of other souls are damned to oblivion by their unworthiness for soul survival by our own harsh – or twisted mathematical – calculations). Such claims are beyond evil/error in my opinion….it is the embrace of sinfulness to so judge an entire world and 7 billion souls unknown to us in such ways I think.

    You say it is “beyond evil/error” and sinful to judge that more than 90% are unworthy to survive. Do you think it is OK to judge that more than 90% do survive? If passing spiritual judgment in the first case is an error, must it not also be an error to do so in the second case? Jesus wholeheartedly hopes that 100% of his children survive, and we are encouraged to have faith and do so as well. But let us avoid the error of attempting to spiritually judge the souls of others, while we hope and work for the kingdom.

     

  3. Jesus taught us that it isn’t good enough to love others as we love ourselves, but that we must learn to love one another like Jesus loves us. (140:5.1) It’s called fatherly love. We are to love even unlovely mankind with a fatherly love (140:5.5). Fatherly love always seeks the welfare of others (2:5.9); it always looks for the best in others (140:5.12). Fatherly love glorifies the value of every single person, and since we are told to strive to achieve fatherly love ourselves, then we should also glorify the value of every single person and presume the best in them, like a true parent would.

    140:5.12 Fatherly love has singleness of purpose, and it always looks for the best in man; that is the attitude of a true parent.

    The incarnation is an example of remarkable fatherly love (2:5.10), but even more incredible is the Adjuster who trusts himself to human will because he sees the best in each individual.  Chances are most people have Adjusters and are therefore potential finaliters, the goal God has established for each and every indwelt personality and one the Adjuster never ceases to shed light upon.

    (138.4) 12:7.9 The love of the Father absolutely individualizes each personality as a unique child of the Universal Father, a child without duplicate in infinity, a will creature irreplaceable in all eternity. The Father’s love glorifies each child of God, illuminating each member of the celestial family, sharply silhouetting the unique nature of each personal being against the impersonal levels that lie outside the fraternal circuit of the Father of all. The love of God strikingly portrays the transcendent value of each will creature, unmistakably reveals the high value which the Universal Father has placed upon each and every one of his children from the highest creator personality of Paradise status to the lowest personality of will dignity among the savage tribes of men in the dawn of the human species on some evolutionary world of time and space.

    (454.2) 40:10.13 Thus, in the final analysis, it would be hardly proper to use the words “greater” or “lesser” in contrasting the destinies of the ascending orders of sonship. Every such son of God shares the fatherhood of God, and God loves each of his creature sons alike; he is no more a respecter of ascendant destinies than is he of the creatures who may attain such destinies. The Father loves each of his sons, and that affection is not less than true, holy, divine, unlimited, eternal, and unique — a love bestowed upon this son and upon that son, individually, personally, and exclusively. And such a love utterly eclipses all other facts. Sonship is the supreme relationship of the creature to the Creator.

    (454.3) 40:10.14 As mortals you can now recognize your place in the family of divine sonship and begin to sense the obligation to avail yourselves of the advantages so freely provided in and by the Paradise plan for mortal survival, which plan has been so enhanced and illuminated by the life experience of a bestowal Son. Every facility and all power have been provided for insuring your ultimate attainment of the Paradise goal of divine perfection.

    We’re also told that fatherly love never destroys anything that mercy can save.  The benefit of time and suspension of doubt is given to all.

    (617.3) 54:5.3 2. Supreme justice is dominated by a Father’s love; therefore will justice never destroy that which mercy can save. Time to accept salvation is vouchsafed every evildoer.

    The Adjuster’s plan for each of us is survival.  Survival is a gift. If every person already has the gift of survival, who has the right to take it away?  Only one person has that right – the individual personality.  The rest of us have no right at all to remove or suggest the removal of the gift of survival which fatherly love has so generously given to each of us.

    167:5.1 Said Jesus: “You see, then, that the Father gives salvation to the children of men, and this salvation is a free gift to all who have the faith to receive sonship in the divine family. There is nothing man can do to earn this salvation.

    193:2.2 Salvation is the free gift of God, but those who are born of the spirit will immediately begin to show forth the fruits of the spirit in loving service to their fellow creatures.

  4. Question:

    Without the Giver of the gift, there would be no gift.

    Which is more important, the Giver of the gift or the gift itself?

  5. You can’t give someone a gift if they don’t want it.

    God doesn’t do it, why should we?

     

     

  6. Do you think it is OK to judge that more than 90% do survive? If passing spiritual judgment in the first case is an error, must it not also be an error to do so in the second case?

    I don’t find the two examples even remotely related George.  And I’m not passing any spiritual judgement as to anyone’s unworthiness or worthiness.  But I am absolutely certain that I AM going to the Mansion Worlds….no doubts whatsoever and had such certainty prior to the UB and thanks to the 4th ER.  And I have met many thousands of people in my life and many more day to day and see them on media and read of them and hear stories of them and I must say how favorably others compare to myself….rather than how poorly they fare compared to myself as must be the case for those with such harsh judgements.  If this tadpole has a ticket, what tadpoles do not?  Am I special?  Are others so horrible?  Not in my experience or perspective.

    Who the hell thinks like that?  What sort of ego has the chutzpah to declare most people are inferior compared to them?  Really!!??

    Who can read this Revelation of hope and declare 90-99% of all people are doomed?  Who does that??!!  Who might do that?  THAT is the question!  What perspective, what disappointment, what immaturity, what superiority would even allow such a belief….and then declare it as a reasoned proposition and defend it as true?  I find it diabolical….as Bonita says, Luciferian even.  An instrument of doubt and despair, anxiety and fear….the very antithesis of the contents and message of the Revelation IMO.

    Jesus teaches how special all God’s children are and how us material born ones are so often affected by ignorance, doubts, fears, immaturities, distractions, and self importance…the errors inherent in our situation and animal nature….and also how patient, kind, generous, merciful, and tender is the paternal love for each of us….indeed, we are taught we must willingly, knowingly, repeatedly, and in full conscious REJECT this eternal love reality and fully embrace sin and iniquity sufficiently to kill the soul and extinguish the light of the Spirit within.  Who has done this on this world and in this brief life?  Who could do so?

    The study of Religion In Human Experience should lead us into discovery of the mysteries of soul and faith and spiritization and spiritualization and how all of those can evolve and grow without knowledge or belief or even with false knowledge and beliefs.  Such a study should inform us how unique and personalized is each religious experience and expression….and should make us tremble before making damning judgments toward other pilgrims and children of time.

    What is the difference in being born of the Spirit – birth of soul – and being consciously born again by personal will volition and intent?  What is the difference in material death while in the seventh circle and the third?  What is the difference between the early mortal epochs where one lives a few decades and later when one lives a few centuries?  Is their more Deity patience with the first or with the latter I wonder?  And of those who live hours or days or weeks or just a few short and tender years?  Not even such ones are doomed to Deity’s demands and impatience.

    No George….the question is not even about how many survive material death….it is who could declare such doom and gloom and claim it comes from the Urantia Book….that’s the question.

    ;-)

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  7. You can’t give someone a gift if they don’t want it. God doesn’t do it, why should we?

    Nonsense!!   Who is not given the GIFTS of life, personality, mind, free will, the Spirit within (Adjutants, Holy Spirit, TA, Spirit of Truth), the ministry of angels, time, mercy credits, love, forgiveness, patience,  and so much and many more gifts.

    And we should give love and grow the fruits of the Spirit because we are commanded to and because we benefit from the attachment of our branch to the vine which gives all these gifts and by such attachment we do naturally pour forth the fruits of the Spirit….we can’t help it…it’s reality!!

    What an odd post Enno.  You think then we are to withhold love, mercy, kindness, patience, service, and love from others?  Weird.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  8. Question: Without the Giver of the gift, there would be no gift. Which is more important, the Giver of the gift or the gift itself?

    I wonder which is more important to the Giver of all gifts?  The parent or the child?  For aren’t all gifts according to the Giver’s purpose, plan, will, and design?  We are commanded to love the Giver with all our heart and mind and if we do then we will also love one another and embrace the Giver’s friendly universe.  And if we do not love others like ourselves, then do we love the Giver at all I wonder?  Or still as the immature child and animal nature we are born as, do we still love ourselves most?

    Great question Mara!

    :good:

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  9. Weird.

    I thought you were my friend?

     

     

  10. Weird.

    I thought you were my friend?

    Sure Enno…still weird though.  I’m also say and do things considered weird by my friends and family….and my friends do weird things and say dumb stuff…no big deal.

    Bonita and I are great friends…and she is friend enough to point out how wrong I am about some things.  For such friendship I am grateful.   Friends do not agree on much, much of the time.

    Do you really think God does not give all gifts to all of us all the time?  Remember the rain for the just and the unjust?  Perhaps I misunderstood your point?  Please clarify as you may wish.

    ;-)

     

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  11. God is always the first to act.  He gives first, and because of that, we learn from him how to give back.  God gives the gift first and then we give a gift back, and the only gift worth giving is our decision to do his will.

    118:5.3 Mortal consciousness proceeds from the fact, to the meaning, and then to the value. Creator consciousness proceeds from the thought-value, through the word-meaning, to the fact of action. Always must God act to break the deadlock of the unqualified unity inherent in existential infinity. Always must Deity provide the pattern universe, the perfect personalities, the original truth, beauty, and goodness for which all subdeity creations strive. Always must God first find man that man may later find God. Always must there be a Universal Father before there can ever be universal sonship and consequent universal brotherhood. 

    1:1.2 The affectionate dedication of the human will to the doing of the Father’s will is man’s choicest gift to God; in fact, such a consecration of creature will constitutes man’s only possible gift of true value to the Paradise Father.  In God, man lives, moves, and has his being; there is nothing which man can give to God except this choosing to abide by the Father’s will, and such decisions, effected by the intelligent will creatures of the universes, constitute the reality of that true worship which is so satisfying to the love-dominated nature of the Creator Father.

    So yes, God gives gifts even to those who don’t want them because he acts first.  He finds man so man might LATER find him.  People can only choose from what they are conscious of.  If they are not conscious of the gift of salvation, then they can’t choose for it or against it. It must wait until LATER.  When it comes down to it, it’s what a person is yearning for, their longings and purposes that truly matter.

    34:3.8 One is free to choose and act only within the realm of one’s consciousness.

  12. Weird.

    I thought you were my friend?

    Sure Enno…still weird though. I’m also say and do things considered weird by my friends and family….and my friends do weird things and say dumb stuff…no big deal. Bonita and I are great friends…and she is friend enough to point out how wrong I am about some things. For such friendship I am grateful. Friends do not agree on much, much of the time. Do you really think God does not give all gifts to all of us all the time? Remember the rain for the just and the unjust? Perhaps I misunderstood your point? Please clarify as you may wish. ;-)

    Yeah my friends think I’m extremely wierd. After all, they remind me, my name is NO.

    Do I really think God does not give all gifts to all of us all the time?

    I know he gives it all to everyone, without condition all the time. The point I was trying to make is that, and this floors me, some seem to refuse his gifts.

    It doesn’t make sense to do this, but I have seen people refuse to be given something from another.

    That was all I was trying to say. You can’t always give someone a gift if they refuse to accept it.

     

     

  13. Too much personal stuff
    Sorry

  14. Too much personal stuff Sorry

    Perhaps Gene….and yet it was so poignant and relevant.  I knew exactly what you meant and related so personally to it myself.  Thank you.  While I will not even attempt a restatement, let me say how much I agree that what we have to give is our love and we must give it freely with hope but without strings of obligation and debt and if we can learn to do so then come great gifts to us.  I teach my little ones that so long as we are the most important person in our life, happiness will not come to us…we must love and serve to be happy in life.

    In my immaturity, I have enabled and given false sympathy (assistance and aid and sorrow for the suffering caused by one’s own choices – a detrimental and counterproductive form of sympathy) and protected those I love from the repercussions of their choices.  One learns better – or should!  And, like you Gene, I have given in ways which cost me personal material wealth and security but truly made a difference and provided a bridge at a critical time to someone I love which delivered them to that better  place….sometimes, like you, I even get gratitude, but more often not even recognition and acknowledgement of the success of my service and love.  I have found that such generosity has always been rewarded by more daily bread, more peace of mind, more happiness, more love and affection and respect received over time…indeed, the balance sheet may come up short on the material side but is endlessly bounteous on the spiritual and inner life side!  Love does not cost….it only yields!

    And what an important point you made Gene…..it is not about the recognition, acknowledgement, appreciation, or even success of such gifts and such loving service….it is just an expression of love and who we are!!  In my life I have found such loving service to be everywhere and given by so many….and so often by complete strangers to other strangers….random but intentional acts of kindness, the Good Samaritan syndrome endlessly playing out every day and everywhere.  It is a pity there are those who cannot see this light of life that shines all around but only see the patches of shadow cast by the errors of intention or expression by our immature fellows.

    Love is complex….but so very powerful….and pervasive!  It’s everywhere…it saturates reality….it only disappears in non-realities.  Otherwise, it is the river of life itself, a torrent of love that sweeps reality forward endlessly.

    There are more and less wise forms of its expression and more and less self forgetting forms as well.  Thus the gift of time and experience, the tools of wisdom formation….learning to climb the rungs of the Golden Rule and the love ladder….from doing to others as we would have done to us, to brotherly affection, to paternal/fatherly love, to Divine loving.   Love is a force of nurturing, fostering, and hope.

    It is unfortunate that all of us sometime and some of us all the time place limits and conditions on love….we demand/require recognition, gratitude, specific results, and micro management of process and outcomes…..or we are disappointed in our so called gifts of love.  Some are so focused on what is “refused” and what “fails”….always focused on what others do or do not do and what others should do or should not do….never achieving that sublime peace that comes from simply placing the bread of love upon the waters of life, knowing that the gift of love is never wasted, can never be wasted….but always flows forth in its ministry and with its power to serve the greater good for the greatest number.  The gift of love always has repercussions and effect….not only on others but also on the source of its giving and the branch through which it flows.

    Or so I believe and have found true in my own religious experience.  Sorry for those who did not get to read Gene’s post as it was wonderfully illuminating!

    :good:

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  15. I know he gives it all to everyone, without condition all the time. The point I was trying to make is that, and this floors me, some seem to refuse his gifts. It doesn’t make sense to do this, but I have seen people refuse to be given something from another. That was all I was trying to say. You can’t always give someone a gift if they refuse to accept it.

    Forgive me for being overly-literal for a moment, in order to make a point.  Using your analogy of a gift that is given; if someone were to give a gift to someone and that person essentially ignores the gift or looks in another direction, the gift sits unused and unopened.  That is not a “refusal” of the gift.  It is lack of awareness or understanding that a gift is being offered.

    The person may later be prompted to look in the direction of the gift, which has been sitting neglected on a table for however long, and realize the amazing blessing that is before them, and accept it joyfully.

    I think what Bradly (and I and others on this thread) are saying is that awareness of the gift can occur after mortal death and acceptance of the gift at that time is just as valid as if accepted earlier.

  16. I’d just like to point out that we learn how to love with fatherly affection by adopting the four faith attitudes. One’s attitude precedes one’s reactions of fatherly love toward others.

    (1573.6) 140:5.4 The Master introduced this momentous discourse by calling attention to four faith attitudes as the prelude to the subsequent portrayal of his four transcendent and supreme reactions of fatherly love in contrast to the limitations of mere brotherly love.

    (1573.7) 140:5.5 He first talked about those who were poor in spirit, hungered after righteousness, endured meekness, and who were pure in heart. Such spirit-discerning mortals could be expected to attain such levels of divine selflessness as to be able to attempt the amazing exercise of fatherly affection; that even as mourners they would be empowered to show mercy, promote peace, and endure persecutions, and throughout all of these trying situations to love even unlovely mankind with a fatherly love. A father’s affection can attain levels of devotion that immeasurably transcend a brother’s affection.

    I think these four faith attitudes are essential to true religious living.  True religious living is described several ways in section 6.  It is a mode of living in which one gives wholehearted devotion to supreme values with an unquestioning loyalty (100:6.1). A mode of living where the ego willingly surrenders to self-discipline. A mode of living in which there is an intense striving for super mortal goals. A mode of living where ideals are characterized by patience, fortitude and tolerance. (100:6.4). True religious living is a living love, a life of service, which adds meaning to life and generates enthusiasm and courage.  True religious living results in a sublime peace, a cosmic poise, a lack of doubt and inner turmoil, and a deep sense of security due to ultimate trust in God. (100:6.5-7)

    I don’t think it’s possible to live the true religious life and learn to view the world with a fatherly love without training one’s mind to embrace Jesus’ four faith attitudes:

    (1573.8) 140:5.6 The faith and the love of these beatitudes strengthen moral character and create happiness. Fear and anger weaken character and destroy happiness. This momentous sermon started out upon the note of happiness.

    (1573.9) 140:5.7 1. “Happy are the poor in spirit — the humble.” To a child, happiness is the satisfaction of immediate pleasure craving. The adult is willing to sow seeds of self-denial in order to reap subsequent harvests of augmented happiness. In Jesus’ times and since, happiness has all too often been associated with the idea of the possession of wealth. In the story of the Pharisee and the publican praying in the temple, the one felt rich in spirit — egotistical; the other felt “poor in spirit” — humble. One was self-sufficient; the other was teachable and truth-seeking. The poor in spirit seek for goals of spiritual wealth — for God. And such seekers after truth do not have to wait for rewards in a distant future; they are rewarded now. They find the kingdom of heaven within their own hearts, and they experience such happiness now.

    (1574.1) 140:5.8 2. “Happy are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled.” Only those who feel poor in spirit will ever hunger for righteousness. Only the humble seek for divine strength and crave spiritual power. But it is most dangerous to knowingly engage in spiritual fasting in order to improve one’s appetite for spiritual endowments. Physical fasting becomes dangerous after four or five days; one is apt to lose all desire for food. Prolonged fasting, either physical or spiritual, tends to destroy hunger.

    (1574.2) 140:5.9 Experiential righteousness is a pleasure, not a duty. Jesus’ righteousness is a dynamic love — fatherly-brotherly affection. It is not the negative or thou-shalt-not type of righteousness. How could one ever hunger for something negative — something “not to do”?

    (1574.3) 140:5.10 It is not so easy to teach a child mind these first two of the beatitudes, but the mature mind should grasp their significance.

    (1574.4) 140:5.11 3. “Happy are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” Genuine meekness has no relation to fear. It is rather an attitude of man co-operating with God — “Your will be done.” It embraces patience and forbearance and is motivated by an unshakable faith in a lawful and friendly universe. It masters all temptations to rebel against the divine leading. Jesus was the ideal meek man of Urantia, and he inherited a vast universe.

    (1574.5) 140:5.12 4. “Happy are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.” Spiritual purity is not a negative quality, except that it does lack suspicion and revenge. In discussing purity, Jesus did not intend to deal exclusively with human sex attitudes. He referred more to that faith which man should have in his fellow man; that faith which a parent has in his child, and which enables him to love his fellows even as a father would love them. A father’s love need not pamper, and it does not condone evil, but it is always anticynical. Fatherly love has singleness of purpose, and it always looks for the best in man; that is the attitude of a true parent.

    (1574.6) 140:5.13 To see God — by faith — means to acquire true spiritual insight. And spiritual insight enhances Adjuster guidance, and these in the end augment God-consciousness. And when you know the Father, you are confirmed in the assurance of divine sonship, and you can increasingly love each of your brothers in the flesh, not only as a brother — with brotherly love — but also as a father — with fatherly affection.

     

     

     

     

  17. I think what Bradly (and I and others on this thread) are saying is that awareness of the gift can occur after mortal death and acceptance of the gift at that time is just as valid as if accepted earlier.

    Yes, that’s exactly right.  A person cannot reject survival without realizing that they actually have the option to survive.  It’s possible that such a realization, or consciousness of the gift of survival, does not occur to a person until after resurrection actually happens.  Once a person is “aware”, then a real decision can be made.  And that is why I think most people initially survive in order to get an opportunity to make a fully conscious decision.

    Ignorance is not held against us, but ignoring gifts can be held against us because it indicates a lack of the growth of grace.   Grace itself is a gift which is meant to grow.  There are many reasons for lack of growth and progress.  Some of those reasons may be beyond the control of a person, some are due to animalistic tendencies such as, ” . . .procrastination, equivocation, insincerity, problem avoidance, unfairness, and ease seeking” (48:5.8),  all of which are dealt with on the mansion worlds. We know that the universe goes to the nth degree to provide what is lacking in order for us to succeed.  So few believe they have an abundance of personality credits of grace on tap. (48:7.6) Belief is not faith, so they must be given the opportunity to change their beliefs and draw upon their gifts.

    150:5.2 Entrance into the Father’s kingdom is wholly free, but progress — growth in grace — is essential to continuance therein.

    48:7.6 4. Few mortals ever dare to draw anything like the sum of personality credits established by the combined ministries of nature and grace. The majority of impoverished souls are truly rich, but they refuse to believe it.

     

    if someone were to give a gift to someone and that person essentially ignores the gift or looks in another direction, the gift sits unused and unopened.

    Exactly.  Isn’t this what the parable of the talents is all about?  Not using the gifts, investing them in religious living and growth of spirit, is the same as burying them in the ground. In the parable the fella who buried the talents had them taken away, but the parable doesn’t necessarily mean that this happens during one earthly lifetime.  The time lag of mercy allows for a person to learn from mistakes, and I’m pretty sure that the mansion worlds provides that opportunity.

     

  18. Bonita,

    Well stated.  I want to emphasize that I am not saying there are no downsides to not accepting the gift.  Of course, the sooner we accept the gift and put it to work in our daily lives, the more benefit/ blessings we will gain.  There is no punishment for not accepting the gift, only lack of benefit that the gift yields in our lives the moment we accept the gift and begin conducting ourselves in accordance with the spiritual development that comes along with it.

  19. I know he gives it all to everyone, without condition all the time. The point I was trying to make is that, and this floors me, some seem to refuse his gifts. It doesn’t make sense to do this, but I have seen people refuse to be given something from another. That was all I was trying to say. You can’t always give someone a gift if they refuse to accept it.

    Unless the gift is love, kindness, patience, hope, faith, generosity, and trust…gifts that are given whether accepted or not.  And God’s gifts can hardly be refused….personality, mind, free will, life, time, and endless love.

    I think you’re missing the point.   ;-)

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  20. “some are due to animalistic tendencies”

    Sorry to clip this from Bonita’s post.

    I watch my dog carefully at times. Life is so simple for him.
    He is not plagued with thinking about and sorting through all this stuff.

    Spiritual living is such a mental exercise.

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