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Religion In Human Experience – Paper 100

235 posts · 9 participants · started Jan 7, 2018, 4:53 PM

  1. So beliefs do NOT have consequences….only those choices, decisions, priorities, motives, and intentions which are modified and determined BY beliefs.

    Honestly? Tell that to Adam and Eve, who did not default due to a lack of good motives and high intentions.

    I believe it was impatience, not beliefs, that guided such tragedy to its ultimate outcomes and repercussions.  And it most certainly was an ACT and not a belief that brought default of mission to the couple.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  2. George…you have not commented on my observation that Lucifer’s claims about survival of mortal would indicate an inherently high percentage….don’t you think?

    I don’t follow your reasoning. If 90-99% of everyone survives, then why would Lucifer bother to make automatic resurrection a part of his manifesto? His whole effort was to attack the government of Michael, not to agree with what it was currently doing. I mean, you can’t provoke righteous indignation without pointing to some egregious evil, can you?

    Perhaps now you will offer a comment on how your assertion that everyone should survive differs from Lucifer’s assertion that everyone should survive. Oh, and you need not go into motives and intentions again, since that has already been addressed.

  3. I believe it was impatience, not beliefs, that guided such tragedy to its ultimate outcomes and repercussions. And it most certainly was an ACT and not a belief that brought default of mission to the couple.

    What are you talking about? Are you saying Eve did not believe she was doing something good when her action led to default? That she believed she was doing something good, but this belief had nothing to do with her action. That she acted impulsively out of mere impatience, like a five year old, without due consideration and forethought?

  4. George…you have not commented on my observation that Lucifer’s claims about survival of mortal would indicate an inherently high percentage….don’t you think?

    I don’t follow your reasoning. If 90-99% of everyone survives, then why would Lucifer bother to make automatic resurrection a part of his manifesto? His whole effort was to attack the government of Michael, not to agree with what it was currently doing. I mean, you can’t provoke righteous indignation without pointing to some egregious evil, can you?

    Perhaps now you will offer a comment on how your assertion that everyone should survive differs from Lucifer’s assertion that everyone should survive. Oh, and you need not go into motives and intentions again, since that has already been addressed.

    I gave my logic for his false claim….auto resurrection is an easier claim to make when there is already a high ratio of survival…still false but based on obvious evidence at least…a much better lie and far easier to believe.  I don’t think Lucifer attempted to raise righteous indignation so much as confuse and challenge loyalties and deceive…and he was provided much time to promote his lies and deceptions with his brilliance and authority.  And I would think him clever enough to use a high mortal survival rate to perpetuate his deceptions on the greater issues and claims.   I have never asserted that everyone should or does survive George…now you’re putting words in my mouth.  I claim there is empirical evidence throughout the UB that tadpole survival is both common and the goal of the ascension plan and the very purpose for the Mansion Worlds….and further that those who claim otherwise have not and cannot show such evidence in the UB and that such a message is the opposite of the message of hope and love and the friendly universe so universally presented in the UB.  Are you now declaring otherwise?

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  5. I gave my logic for his false claim….auto resurrection is an easier claim to make when there is already a high ratio of survival…still false but based on obvious evidence at least…a much better lie and far easier to believe.

    Okay. Your theory is that because almost everyone survives, Lucifer attacked Michael by asserting that since not absolutely everyone survives, this is an egregious evil being perpetrated by his government. Oh, wait, you don’t think “Lucifer attempted to raise righteous indignation so much as confuse and challenge loyalties.” So he did not directly accuse Michael of egregious evil, but merely cultivated suspicions about Michael’s motives. And one way he did this was to insinuate that Michael is collaborating with the Ancients of Days, who come into Satania and unjustly extinguish the lives of those who are inherently immortal. “Most bitterly did he attack the right of the Ancients of Days—’foreign potentates’—to interfere in the affairs of the local systems and universes.” (53:3.4) But this direct and bitter attack on the Ancients of Days was not really an attempt to provoke righteous indignation, just a subtle and deceptive way to cleverly create confusion.

  6. I seem to have really tied a knot in your tail there George.  Perhaps I should retire for the weekend and regain my own better humor and equilibrium…and perhaps the conversation might get refocused and back on topic.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  7. Lucifer and Caligastia were able to beguile others with their brilliance.  Both are Sons of a higher standing and greater brilliance than angels.  We’re told it doesn’t take depth of intellect to criticize and find fault, but does take brilliance of mind to deal with criticism and fault finding from others. Angels obviously failed to outwit their superiors.  They also tell us that faith certainty is the best way to deal with the onslaught of deception.  Sadly for the angels, they can grow weary in their faith certainty. The further they are from the source of their faith, the harder it is to maintain it since they are not Adjuster indwelt.  They more easily have their ability to see the Father in the Creator Son clouded by what looks like a brilliant shiny and domineering personality.  Supporting quotes below:

    102:7.6  It requires no great depth of intellect to pick flaws, ask questions, or raise objections. But it does require brilliance of mind to answer these questions and solve these difficulties; faith certainty is the greatest technique for dealing with all such superficial contentions.

    (361.1) 32:3.6 The farther down the scale of life we go, the more difficult it becomes to locate, with the eye of faith, the invisible Father. The lower creatures — and sometimes even the higher personalities — find it difficult always to envisage the Universal Father in his Creator Sons. And so, pending the time of their spiritual exaltation, when perfection of development will enable them to see God in person, they grow weary in progression, entertain spiritual doubts, stumble into confusion, and thus isolate themselves from the progressive spiritual aims of their time and universe. In this way they lose the ability to see the Father when beholding the Creator Son. The surest safeguard for the creature throughout the long struggle to attain the Father, during this time when inherent conditions make such attainment impossible, is tenaciously to hold on to the truth-fact of the Father’s presence in his Sons. Literally and figuratively, spiritually and personally, the Father and the Sons are one. It is a fact: He who has seen a Creator Son has seen the Father.

     

     

     

  8. I don’t follow your reasoning. If 90-99% of everyone survives, then why would Lucifer bother to make automatic resurrection a part of his manifesto?

    Lucifer said there is no such thing as God’s will so everyone survives to do whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want.  Self-rule.  There’s nothing other than the self with which to align one’s aspirations.

    Don’t you think that automatic immortality removes personal responsibility for doing God’s will?  Do you really believe that 90-99% of everyone you know, including yourself, will be executed for not doing God’s will?  That’s extreme and a just a little Old Testament in flavor.

  9. I seem to have really tied a knot in your tail there George. Perhaps I should retire for the weekend and regain my own better humor and equilibrium…

    Take all the time you need and have a good weekend!

  10. What are you talking about? Are you saying Eve did not believe she was doing something good when her action led to default? That she believed she was doing something good, but this belief had nothing to do with her action. That she acted impulsively out of mere impatience, like a five year old, without due consideration and forethought?

    TUB says Eve was impatient:

    (838.6) 74:8.14 The “golden age” is a myth, but Eden was a fact, and the Garden civilization was actually overthrown. Adam and Eve carried on in the Garden for one hundred and seventeen years when, through the impatience of Eve and the errors of judgment of Adam, they presumed to turn aside from the ordained way, speedily bringing disaster upon themselves and ruinous retardation upon the developmental progression of all Urantia.

    (840.2) 75:1.6 Probably no Material Sons of Nebadon were ever faced with such a difficult and seemingly hopeless task as confronted Adam and Eve in the sorry plight of Urantia. But they would have sometime met with success had they been more farseeing and patient. Both of them, especially Eve, were altogether too impatient; they were not willing to settle down to the long, long endurance test. They wanted to see some immediate results, and they did, but the results thus secured proved most disastrous both to themselves and to their world.

    75:3.6  Serapatatia was entirely loyal to the plan of building up a strong reserve of the violet race before attempting the world-wide upstepping of the confused peoples of Urantia. But this would require hundreds of years to consummate, and he was impatient; he wanted to see some immediate results — something in his own lifetime. He made it clear to Eve that Adam was oftentimes discouraged by the little that had been accomplished toward uplifting the world.

     

     

     

  11. Don’t you think that automatic immortality removes personal responsibility for doing God’s will?

    Of course it does. It is a great lie contained in Lucifer’s manifesto, as I grow somewhat tired of point out.

    Do you really believe that 90-99% of everyone you know, including yourself, will be executed for not doing God’s will?

    Honestly, this is a rather breath-taking distortion of everything I have said. Sort of like me asking you: If everyone survives, doesn’t this remove personal responsibility for doing God’s will?

  12. I think it’s peculiar to call Lucifer’s indignation righteous.  Where’s the righteousness in it?  I don’t see it.

  13. Honestly, this is a rather breath-taking distortion of everything I have said. Sort of like me asking you: If everyone survives, doesn’t this remove personal responsibility for doing God’s will?

    Who said everyone survives?    If you believe 90-99% of personalities are executed, chances are you, George, are toast, so what does it matter?  Do whatever you want while you can.

  14. I must say it’s hard to have a honest discussion with someone who is being intentionally obtuse. But have a good weekend!

  15. George Park wrote:I must say it’s hard to have a honest discussion with someone who is being intentionally obtuse.

    Sorry?  Are you saying I am dishonest AND stupid?

     

  16. You do assert that almost everyone should survive, and Lucifer asserted that everyone should survive. Even you have to admit the close similarity between these two assertions.

    I think Lucifer said everyone DOES survive, not SHOULD survive.  I don’t think Lucifer’s claim allowed for free will, the freedom to opt out, since he claimed immortality was automatic.  At least Jesus’ plan for every person’s survival allows for free will, and that’s the difference, respect for the individual’s liberty to choose.

    54:6.9   One error of human thinking respecting these problems consists in the idea that all evolutionary mortals on an evolving planet would choose to enter upon the Paradise career if sin had not cursed their world. The ability to decline survival does not date from the times of the Lucifer rebellion. Mortal man has always possessed the endowment of freewill choice regarding the Paradise career.

  17. I think Lucifer said everyone DOES survive, not SHOULD survive.

    This quote says Lucifer asserted that everyone WOULD survive, if it were not for the Ancients of Days.

    He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days. (53:3.5)

    His point appears to be that everyone SHOULD survive and WOULD survive, if the Ancients of Days could be prevented from interfering.

  18. His point appears to be that everyone SHOULD survive and WOULD survive, if the Ancients of Days could be prevented from interfering.

    Yes, Lucifer did oppose interference from the Ancients of Days, but he said he believed resurrection is natural, automatic, and inherent.  Natural, automatic and inherent means that, in his opinion, everyone DOES survive.  Lucifer objected to survival being prevented by someone else’s will (Ancients of Days).  He rejected interference in that natural, automatic and inherent process which DOES result in resurrection of all personalities.

  19. But this direct and bitter attack on the Ancients of Days was not really an attempt to provoke righteous indignation, just a subtle and deceptive way to cleverly create confusion.

    First of all, it’s improper to call Lucifer’s indignation righteous.   Righteous means virtuous and there is no virtue in Lucifer.  Lucifer was not subtle in his attempt to create confusion, he was blatant about it, as were his minions.  They deliberately and consciously chose to radically reorganize the world.  Radically bypassing natural evolution causes confusion, and when it’s done willfully, there’s absolutely nothing righteous about it.  What Lucifer did was akin to giving a four year old the keys to the family car and saying, “Go ahead, have fun, all will be well.”

    The religious life is what this topic is about. Lucifer is the antithesis of the religious life; his ideas are nonreligious.  Religious living is a natural evolution powered by human will. Religious living, if embraced, will evolve into spiritual living, and spiritual living will evolve into morontia living.  On and on and on.  But we all start with religious living, which is natural and orderly because it strives to attune with the rhythm and harmony of the universe.

    5:4.3 All nonreligious human activities seek to bend the universe to the distorting service of self; the truly religious individual seeks to identify the self with the universe and then to dedicate the activities of this unified self to the service of the universe family of fellow beings, human and superhuman.

  20. As there is already a very robust topical discussion on survivor rates and Lucifer’s Manifesto as it relates to that topic, I appreciate your efforts Bonita to redirect this discussion back to Paper 100.  This topic is about religious experience as a material mortal on the world of our birth – not survival nor non-survival, and more specifically on such a world as we live on where there are no material rulers or examples or representatives of our celestial governance…..a world where potential agondonters are born.  My bad for taking us into the weeds here on that other issue.

    It would appear to me that there are 3 primary stages of Religion In Human Experience to consider:  first is that mindal and evolutionary growth which brings about the birth of soul by the development of morality and the moral-response in-mind – and this happens in children and in primitives alike we are told; the second is that experience we can describe as spiritization and/or spiritualization after the birth of soul and prior to that intentional and cognitive decision of volitional will described as being ‘born-again’ – and, evidently a mortal mind and soul can experience/express a love response and faith and worship and we are naturally ‘wired’ for such a reality-response and are certainly ministered to by the Spirits of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – and this too can and does happen in all minds – and while it would be inaccurate to claim such progress is unintentional, it is not a cognitive exercise of volition I do not think so much as a naturally occurring response and reflex to our naturalized state of being – the dual nature is very real…both sides or aspects of it have profoundly natural drives and responses – for example the hunger and thirst and oxygen needs of the material body are no less represented by the spirit nature; and then there is that religious experience which is intentionally and deliberately pursued after being born again.

    I cannot determine how many of the 7 psychic circles can be traversed prior to the 3rd Stage I describe above (caution and disclosure: the 3 stages are my own invention and study aid so far as I know…subject to review and change!) and how many, if any, require the deliberate and intentional pursuit of the spirit led life…..the transfer of the seat of identity does, I think, require such intention but again, I speculate here.  I have noticed, and it was my own personal experience, that when some mortals enter Stage 3, there often ensues a season of exuberance which can often lead to impatience for enlightenment and wisdom and more radical practices in that pursuit.  Transferring the seat of identity is, perhaps, something best done methodically and deliberately but patiently, awaiting that growth and experience over time that comes from prayer and thoughtful maturation by seeking out meanings and values over simple and radical change.

    Below is an interesting list of warnings and dangers in certain beliefs and practices which may inflate certain distortions of experience in our religious pursuits.

    100:5.8 (1099.6) There is great danger associated with the habitual practice of religious daydreaming; mysticism may become a technique of reality avoidance, albeit it has sometimes been a means of genuine spiritual communion. Short seasons of retreat from the busy scenes of life may not be seriously dangerous, but prolonged isolation of personality is most undesirable. Under no circumstances should the trancelike state of visionary consciousness be cultivated as a religious experience.

    100:5.9 (1099.7) The characteristics of the mystical state are diffusion of consciousness with vivid islands of focal attention operating on a comparatively passive intellect. All of this gravitates consciousness toward the subconscious rather than in the direction of the zone of spiritual contact, the superconscious. Many mystics have carried their mental dissociation to the level of abnormal mental manifestations.

    100:5.10 (1100.1) The more healthful attitude of spiritual meditation is to be found in reflective worship and in the prayer of thanksgiving. The direct communion with one’s Thought Adjuster, such as occurred in the later years of Jesus’ life in the flesh, should not be confused with these so-called mystical experiences. The factors which contribute to the initiation of mystic communion are indicative of the danger of such psychic states. The mystic status is favored by such things as: physical fatigue, fasting, psychic dissociation, profound aesthetic experiences, vivid sex impulses, fear, anxiety, rage, and wild dancing. Much of the material arising as a result of such preliminary preparation has its origin in the subconscious mind.

    100:5.11 (1100.2) However favorable may have been the conditions for mystic phenomena, it should be clearly understood that Jesus of Nazareth never resorted to such methods for communion with the Paradise Father. Jesus had no subconscious delusions or superconscious illusions.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

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