So justice is a group function huh? Well what does this group have to say about it? I know what I’d like it to say, “Go away and stay away!” The door is shut.
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Judgement
100 posts · 8 participants · started Jan 20, 2015, 1:07 AM
Hey, no problem. I’ve been done for a while now. The doors of my soul are completely sealed to such sophistry. It amazes me how close it comes to the Manifesto ideology. Remarkable, actually. One wonders what the consequences of such erroneous thinking might be. They say that it is experienced only on the level of actual performance (p761:3 67:7.4). That would be this forum, right?
In shutting the door to your soul you risk suffocation for your eyes, the windows to the soul are also sealed. You are blinded. You refer to the “Manifesto” as if you know of it first hand or have read a transcript of it. It matters not what the Manifesto says, you are blind and deaf. You do not care, even if to disagree with it. You are one to condemn without evidence or testimony. Your soul has been locked for some time now.
Great question Keryn. Really great. I’ve been wondering the same thing. It seems to me that whenever the rebellion comes up chaos ensues. Sometimes I wonder if that’s the plan, as if Lucifer’s minions are still wreaking havoc. At least only one rebellion addict has been swayed by the sophistry; the rest seem pretty solidly closed to it.
You continue to wonder about many things and you see nothing because you are blinded. The rebels are interned and Jesus ended the rebellion almost two thousand years ago. Are you afraid of me? I cannot harm you so please don’t close off your soul on my account. I am not in any prison and my soul is open for the business of the Father. The only thing I am addicted to is love.
67:7.5 Evil and sin visit their consequences in material and social realms and may sometimes even retard spiritual progress on certain levels of universe reality, but never does the sin of any being rob another of the realization of the divine right of personality survival. Eternal survival can be jeopardized only by the decisions of the mind and the choice of the soul of the individual himself.
No matter what you think of me, the decisions of the mind and the choice of your soul is the only thing that can jeopardize your eternal survival. Open the door to your soul before it is forever sealed.
I think they would be pleased to have the UB fail. I am sure they would be pleased to have key people stumble and fail, entertain doubts or go off the rail. They are probably happy when others stumble too. But things have to be very dire in a person’s mind I think to where they have willfully and persistently pursued sin and error and when they have rejected truth or twisted it. Remember this one concerning the shadow of a hair’s turning:
The Urantia Book would necessarily need to have a specific agenda if it were subject to success or failure. Only persons can succeed or fail. If you, Mara, give TUB the status of a person then you have made an IDOL. You nor anyone else can presume to know anyone’s mind. Only God can know this, yet you are SURE that some are pleased and happy to have others stumble. Are you fully aware of what you have written here?
48:6:33 Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. The creation of new pictures out of old facts, the restatement of parental life in the lives of offspring — these are the artistic triumphs of truth. The shadow of a hair’s turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle — these constitute falseness. But the fetish of factualized truth, fossilized truth, the iron band of so-called unchanging truth, holds one blindly in a closed circle of cold fact. One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the truth.
Do you you fully realize that in using this quote to make your point you reach the heights of hypocrisy? Remember that God is watching you do all of this.
So justice is a group function huh? Well what does this group have to say about it? I know what I’d like it to say, “Go away and stay away!” The door is shut.
So, is this forum about to be commissioned as a tribunal. Is this how you would silence a brother? Shut the door on a brother and you slam the door in God’s face.
“Judge not lest ye be judged.”
165:3.2 “What I have many times said to my apostles and to my disciples, I now declare to this multitude: Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees which is hypocrisy, born of prejudice and nurtured in traditional bondage, albeit many of these Pharisees are honest of heart and some of them abide here as my disciples. Presently all of you shall understand my teaching, for there is nothing now covered that shall not be revealed. That which is now hid from you shall all be made known when the Son of Man has completed his mission on earth and in the flesh.
175:1.17 “Woe upon you, scribes and Pharisees and all other hypocrites who make sure that they tithe mint, anise, and cumin and at the same time disregard the weightier matters of the law — faith, mercy, and judgment! Within reason, the one you ought to have done but not to have left the other undone. You are truly blind guides and dumb teachers; you strain out the gnat and swallow the camel.
And then there’s this:
(1570.14) 140:3.13 “You are the light of the world. A city set upon a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and be led to glorify your Father who is in heaven.
(1571.1) 140:3.14 “I am sending you out into the world to represent me and to act as ambassadors of my Father’s kingdom, and as you go forth to proclaim the glad tidings, put your trust in the Father whose messengers you are. Do not forcibly resist injustice; put not your trust in the arm of the flesh. If your neighbor smites you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Be willing to suffer injustice rather than to go to law among yourselves. In kindness and with mercy minister to all who are in distress and in need.
(1571.2) 140:3.15 “I say to you: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who despitefully use you. And whatsoever you believe that I would do to men, do you also to them.
(1571.3) 140:3.16 “Your Father in heaven makes the sun to shine on the evil as well as upon the good; likewise he sends rain on the just and the unjust. You are the sons of God; even more, you are now the ambassadors of my Father’s kingdom. Be merciful, even as God is merciful, and in the eternal future of the kingdom you shall be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.
(1571.4) 140:3.17 “You are commissioned to save men, not to judge them. At the end of your earth life you will all expect mercy; therefore do I require of you during your mortal life that you show mercy to all of your brethren in the flesh. Make not the mistake of trying to pluck a mote out of your brother’s eye when there is a beam in your own eye. Having first cast the beam out of your own eye, you can the better see to cast the mote out of your brother’s eye.
(1571.5) 140:3.18 “Discern the truth clearly; live the righteous life fearlessly; and so shall you be my apostles and my Father’s ambassadors. You have heard it said: ‘If the blind lead the blind, they both shall fall into the pit.’ If you would guide others into the kingdom, you must yourselves walk in the clear light of living truth. In all the business of the kingdom I exhort you to show just judgment and keen wisdom. Present not that which is holy to dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample your gems under foot and turn to rend you.
(1571.6) 140:3.19 “I warn you against false prophets who will come to you in sheep’s clothing, while on the inside they are as ravening wolves. By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree brings forth good fruit, but the corrupt tree bears evil fruit. A good tree cannot yield evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is presently hewn down and cast into the fire. In gaining an entrance into the kingdom of heaven, it is the motive that counts. My Father looks into the hearts of men and judges by their inner longings and their sincere intentions.
May we each and all look toward our intentions here…..and now.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Mara brought up the word justice, (which is different from judgment). Justice is a group function. According to the Foreword, justice is an impersonal disclosure of divinity, and divine justice is always tempered with mercy (0:1.17). It requires infinite wisdom to determine the proportions of mercy and justice to be meted out (2:3.2). So, how does a human group with limited wisdom determine what is merciful and what is just? Undoubtedly decisions concerning justice will be imperfect and that is why those whose deeds are being judged know they can wail and scream and cry against it in an attempt to change the conscience of the group. I think one of the biggest problems with human group justice is a weakness of commitment to what it means to love another person like a father. Sometimes love means saying no.
So, how does a human group with limited wisdom determine what is merciful and what is just? Undoubtedly decisions concerning justice will be imperfect and that is why those whose deeds are being judged know they can wail and scream and cry against it in an attempt to change the conscience of the group. I think one of the biggest problems with human group justice is a weakness of commitment to what it means to love another person like a father. Sometimes love means saying no.
The wisdom of the group is superior to the wisdom of the individual, imperfect though group wisdom may be. It’s the best way we have to adjudicate worldly matters, and that is inclusive of local matters as well.
159:1:6 Thus did Jesus teach the dangers and illustrate the unfairness of sitting in personal judgment upon one’s fellows. Discipline must be maintained, justice must be administered, but in all these matters the wisdom of the brotherhood should prevail. Jesus invested legislative and judicial authority in the group, not in the individual. Even this investment of authority in the group must not be exercised as personal authority. There is always danger that the verdict of an individual may be warped by prejudice or distorted by passion. Group judgment is more likely to remove the dangers and eliminate the unfairness of personal bias. Jesus sought always to minimize the elements of unfairness, retaliation, and vengeance.The wisdom of the group is superior to the wisdom of the individual, imperfect though group wisdom may be. It’s the best way we have to adjudicate worldly matters, and that is inclusive of local matters as well.
So I guess that means that we will have to go on listening to the wailing and ranting and incessant clamor coming from those who think they are victims of injustice. Problem is, they tend to sway the weak into joining them. Before you know it, everyone is a victim of some kind of injustice and the whole world becomes focused on it . . . not unlike the world today, in fact.
The attitude of fear regarding our safety or fairness in God’s creation is disturbing to me.
Bradly wrote: The attitude of fear regarding our safety or fairness in God’s creation is disturbing to me.
Me too. Michael petitioned to have the lunatics locked up in order to make sure we are safe. He sent his Spirit of Truth to protect us from their sophistry.That is the way of the universe and it is ultimately fair.
Why are both of you so “disturbed”? This must comes from fear of some kind or form. And you both agree that fear is a poison to the mind.
Bonita, you say that the Spirit of Truth was sent to “protect” us from sophistry. That implies a fear of sophism. Fear is poisonous to the mind, you both agreed. Do you feel less fearful now that the lunatics are locked up?
If you also believe that the universe is ultimately fair, then why be troubled at all?
I must admit, I really appreciate what emanny has offered this thread. You are on fire dude! in a figurative and positive way. You have me looking at the topic of judgment in a whole new light. I find that there are many gaps in TUB’s narratives that allow for the reader to entertain alternative views besides conventional, widely circulated ones. The concept that “others were interned for their own protection… This is known as protective custody. Is it possible that Michael was keeping his warring children apart so that no harm will come till full mercy and adjudication is completed” never crossed my mind; a very interesting concept.
One thing I have learned over the years reading TUB is it is not a restatement of facts text, exclusively. Its narratives are multi-layered which I believe allow for interpretation.
BB
So how does Jesus help us become sophistry-proof? That’s an easy one. Sophistry, or fallacious deception, is anti-truth; I guess you can actually say it is anti-Christ. Having the presence of Truth living within your soul shines light on all that is anti-truth. It’s like turning the light on in a dark roach-infested room.
So how does Jesus help us become sophistry-proof? That’s an easy one. Sophistry, or fallacious deception, is anti-truth; I guess you can actually say it is anti-Christ. Having the presence of Truth living within your soul shines light on all that is anti-truth. It’s like turning the light on in a dark roach-infested room.
Jesus helps by showing the way, the truth and the life. There is no anti-Christ. There are those that abide in God and those that do not. Those that do not abide in God are unrealities. Unrealities pose no threat at all.
The light that shines suddenly in a once dark room only reveals that there are no monsters or roaches there at all. Nothing to be afraid of. One must not think of the Spirit of Truth as a shield, but as a lantern that leads the way to truth and life.
What I love so much about Jesus’ Spirit of Truth is that he’s so often known as the Comforter, the Divine Paraclete or Advocate. His presence is a protection against darkness and also against the traitorous ones. Thank you Jesus.
53:8.7 Before the bestowal of Michael these rulers of darkness sought to maintain their authority on Urantia, and they persistently withstood the minor and subordinate celestial personalities. But since the day of Pentecost this traitorous Caligastia and his equally contemptible associate, Daligastia, are servile before the divine majesty of the Paradise Thought Adjusters and the protective Spirit of Truth, the spirit of Michael, which has been poured out upon all flesh.
What I love so much about Jesus’ Spirit of Truth is that he’s so often known as the Comforter, the Divine Paraclete or Advocate. His presence is a protection against darkness and also against the traitorous ones. Thank you Jesus.
194:2.3 This bestowal of the Son’s spirit effectively prepared all normal men’s minds for the subsequent universal bestowal of the Father’s spirit (the Adjuster) upon all mankind. In a certain sense, this Spirit of Truth is the spirit of both the Universal Father and the Creator Son.
194:2.4 Do not make the mistake of expecting to become strongly intellectually conscious of the outpoured Spirit of Truth. The spirit never creates a consciousness of himself, only a consciousness of Michael, the Son. From the beginning Jesus taught that the spirit would not speak of himself. The proof, therefore, of your fellowship with the Spirit of Truth is not to be found in your consciousness of this spirit but rather in your experience of enhanced fellowship with Michael.
194:2.5 The spirit also came to help men recall and understand the words of the Master as well as to illuminate and reinterpret his life on earth.
194:2.6 Next, the Spirit of Truth came to help the believer to witness to the realities of Jesus’ teachings and his life as he lived it in the flesh, and as he now again lives it anew and afresh in the individual believer of each passing generation of the spirit-filled sons of God.
194:2.7 Thus it appears that the Spirit of Truth comes really to lead all believers into all truth, into the expanding knowledge of the experience of the living and growing spiritual consciousness of the reality of eternal and ascending sonship with God.
I see nothing mentioned here about The Spirit of Truth protecting against anyone. The quote, 53:8.7, written by Manovandet Melchizedek talks of the traitorous Caligastia and Daligastia but makes no mention of who they betrayed in that quote.
Part II THE LOCAL UNIVERSE papers were sponsored by a Nebadon Corp of Local Universe Personalities acting by the authority of Gabriel of Salvington.
I must assume that the traitorous acts of Calgastia et al were against Gabriel. My quotes on The Spirit of Truth was sponsored by a commission of twelve Urantia midwayers acting under the supervision of a Melchizedek revelatory director.
This commission of twelve were not under Gabriel’s authority and they a have a different point of view. Apparently Manovandet has the same attitude toward Caligastia as does Gabriel. Gabriel gave authority for Paper 53.
The question in my mind remains as to whether Caligastia betrayed Michael and Father or just the authority of Gabriel. Gabriel is not Deity. Willful disloyalty to Gabriel alone is not sin or iniquity. Lets think about that and discuss it further.
Getting back to justice . . . We are told that justice is always tempered with mercy (2:3.2). We’re also told that justice is not an attitude of the Father, the Son or the Spirit personally, or individually. Justice is an attitude of the Trinity. Even though the Trinity is one, justice is a plural function. One single personality of the Trinity cannot mete justice alone (10:6.2). The personal expression of justice is called mercy. And we are told that our individual mercy credits are always far in excess of your ability to exhaust them, as long as we are sincere of purpose and honest of heart (28:6.7).
- Bonita wrote: Justice is an attitude of the Trinity.In the superuniverse justice-judgment is in the hands of Trinity Sons 10:6:8 : the 3 Ancients of Days116:4:6 And as it is with the Master Spirits of the superuniverses, so is it with the triune rulers of these supercreations — the Ancients of Days. These personifications of Trinity justice-judgment in time and space are the field fulcrums for the mobilizing almighty power of the Supreme, serving as the sevenfold focal points for the evolution of trinitarian sovereignty in the domains of time and space. From their vantage point midway between Paradise and the evolving worlds, these Trinity-origin sovereigns see both ways, know both ways, and co-ordinate both ways.Why are they called the Ancients of Days?15:0:2 Early in the materialization of the universal creation the sevenfold scheme of the superuniverse organization and government was formulated. The first post-Havona creation was divided into seven stupendous segments, and the headquarters worlds of these superuniverse governments were designed and constructed. The present scheme of administration has existed from near eternity, and the rulers of these seven superuniverses are rightly called Ancients of Days.And by the way, in our ascension career we will come face to face, so to speak, with each member of God the Sevenfold 0:8:0, and, after recognizing our Creator Son, the next Son in the sevenfold approach to Deity is the Ancients of Days. .
Getting back to judgement.
54:5.13 12. Time, even in a universe of time, is relative: If a Urantia mortal of average length of life should commit a crime which precipitated world-wide pandemonium, and if he were apprehended, tried, and executed within two or three days of the commission of the crime, would it seem a long time to you? And yet that would be nearer a comparison with the length of Lucifer’s life even if his adjudication, now begun, should not be completed for a hundred thousand Urantia years. The relative lapse of time from the viewpoint of Uversa, where the litigation is pending, could be indicated by saying that the crime of Lucifer was being brought to trial within two and a half seconds of its commission. From the Paradise viewpoint the adjudication is simultaneous with the enactment.
The Trinity knows the outcome of the adjudication and I presume Michael and Immanuel do also.
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139:6.5 The apostles all loved and respected Nathaniel, and he got along with them splendidly, excepting Judas Iscariot. Judas did not think Nathaniel took his apostleship sufficiently seriously and once had the temerity to go secretly to Jesus and lodge complaint against him. Said Jesus: “Judas, watch carefully your steps; do not overmagnify your office. Who of us is competent to judge his brother? It is not the Father’s will that his children should partake only of the serious things of life. Let me repeat: I have come that my brethren in the flesh may have joy, gladness, and life more abundantly. Go then, Judas, and do well that which has been intrusted to you but leave Nathaniel, your brother, to give account of himself to God.” And the memory of this, with that of many similar experiences, long lived in the self-deceiving heart of Judas Iscariot.
My next question is in the matter of Gabriel vs Lucifer, does Gabriel play the part of prosecutor? In the indictments against Lucifer et al., are the judgements those of deeds? If so, what were the actual deeds? 54:2.3 Lucifer’s folly was the attempt to do the nondoable, to short-circuit time in an experiential universe. Lucifer’s crime was the attempted creative disenfranchisement of every personality in Satania, the unrecognized abridgment of the creature’s personal participation—freewill participation—in the long evolutionary struggle to attain the status of light and life both individually and collectively. In so doing, this onetime Sovereign of your system set the temporal purpose of his own will directly athwart the eternal purpose of God’s will as it is revealed in the bestowal of free will upon all personal creatures. The Lucifer rebellion thus threatened the maximum possible infringement of the freewill choice of the ascenders and servers of the system of Satania—a threat forevermore to deprive every one of these beings of the thrilling experience of contributing something personal and unique to the slowly erecting monument to experiential wisdom which will sometime exist as the perfected system of Satania. Thus does the Lucifer manifesto, masquerading in the habiliments of liberty, stand forth in the clear light of reason as a monumental threat to consummate the theft of personal liberty and to do it on a scale that has been approached only twice in all the history of Nebadon. Seems to me that the key words in the quote above by a Mighty Messenger is “attempt” and “attempted”. Does an attempt constitute a deed or an intent? Regards, Manny
I realize the unfairness of addressing an author who has been censored from posting on this site, but since he is free to roam other TUB forums, maybe this is fair, after all….
None of the rebel shenanigans made a dent in the ABSOLUTE levels of Deity, that’s why it is correct to use the words “attempt” and “attempted”.
So, how does a human group with limited wisdom determine what is merciful and what is just? Undoubtedly decisions concerning justice will be imperfect and that is why those whose deeds are being judged know they can wail and scream and cry against it in an attempt to change the conscience of the group. I think one of the biggest problems with human group justice is a weakness of commitment to what it means to love another person like a father. Sometimes love means saying no.
The wisdom of the group is superior to the wisdom of the individual, imperfect though group wisdom may be. It’s the best way we have to adjudicate worldly matters, and that is inclusive of local matters as well.
159:1:6 Thus did Jesus teach the dangers and illustrate the unfairness of sitting in personal judgment upon one’s fellows. Discipline must be maintained, justice must be administered, but in all these matters the wisdom of the brotherhood should prevail. Jesus invested legislative and judicial authority in the group, not in the individual. Even this investment of authority in the group must not be exercised as personal authority. There is always danger that the verdict of an individual may be warped by prejudice or distorted by passion. Group judgment is more likely to remove the dangers and eliminate the unfairness of personal bias. Jesus sought always to minimize the elements of unfairness, retaliation, and vengeance.Not sure why anyone would be worried about what used to be USA legal system, complete with habeus corpus, having too much wiggle room for whiners to rend their garments against the injustice of it all…
We do not have that “mob rule” anymore. Fact. Search the internet – TONS of info to support my assertion, here’s the latest:
http://www.rt.com/usa/313740-federal-court-nsa-spy/
We are as far away as can be today from the safety of group justice!
