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another mind thing

143 posts · 7 participants · started Oct 9, 2016, 9:13 PM

GeneParticipant
Oct 9, 2016, 9:13 PM
And yet some of the less imaginative of your mortal mechanists insist on viewing material creation and human evolution as an accident. The Urantia midwayers have assembled over fifty thousand facts of physics and chemistry which they deem to be incompatible with the laws of accidental chance, and which they contend unmistakably demonstrate the presence of intelligent pur- pose in the material creation. And all of this takes no account of their catalogue of more than one hundred thousand findings outside the domain of physics and chemistry which they maintain prove the presence of mind in the planning, creation, and maintenance of the material cosmos.

I find this quote from paper 58 very interesting:

many of today’s leading scientists are very imaginative but cling to the mechanist point of view like Hawking, Sagan, and others. But what grabbed me was the statement that Urania midwayers have 50K scientific facts that are incompatible with an accidental mechanical universe. I wish I had just one of these facts. Every time I talk the presence of mind and creation with a mechanist what always happens is cause and effect are all that we can observe. I need faith to know that mind and spirit dominate energy and I believe what the mechanist needs is a miracle? I have been told there has never been any evidence of any interaction between God and the material universe. This line of reasoning suggests to me people are still looking for a miracle.

But what does that say for Midwayers facts?? The real miracle is what we observe as the natural order of things.

so I tend toward the latter part where these same midwayers have twice as much data outside science to prove mind presence in creation.

the engineer part of me says that the fundamental building blocks of the universe can’t be anything else but engineered. This quote above just deals with atmosphere. I’d feel foolish and unintelligent to believe such life giving and sustaining material creation is accidental.

im far from a brilliant imaginative scientist but have no issues with this but far more intelligent people than me just can’t or won’t go there.

im confused. Or maybe disappointed.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 10, 2016, 1:37 PM
Well, the good news is that our world is finally moving away from materialism. Mechanism is materialism. It’s a way of thinking which demands that the root of everything is matter. It’s a very narrow view of reality. Scientists who believe that thinking is the result of neurons and axons electrochemically activated via potassium channels are materialists. In their world thinking can only occur if there is a brain. Obviously, God (whom they deny exists) does not have a brain, therefore he cannot think. Duh! And that puts humans at the very top of the thinking spectrum. What a sad thing! No wonder there is such doom and gloom in this world.

The revelation that mind is a ministry is really too much for most people to wrap their gray matter around. We’ve been taught by the evolutionists that we all came from slime (which is true) and that slime eventually grew a brain and began thinking. Therefore, thinking had a beginning, and it began with the very first brain. There was absolutely no thinking before that point in time. It’s amazing to me that no one can see how this is the same exact thinking that put the earth at the center of the solar system and the universe . . . a myth that occurred due to erroneous thinking. Oh wait! Brains are error prone.

Which brings us to the next little problem. Because brains don’t always think properly it makes one’s grip on reality a bit tenuous. The whole thinking business could collapse in on itself. What if all the brains in the world get a virus and stop functioning? Is that the end of thinking? According to materialists it is. How very sad this is, to live so close to the edge of disaster. It sort of makes you want to support better living through chemistry . . . more and better drugs for the brain, in order to keep it functioning properly, to keep the machine going. Pills take the place of prayer. And that is where we are today. But this too shall pass.
George ParkParticipant
Oct 10, 2016, 2:10 PM

Gene wrote:

But what grabbed me was the statement that Urania midwayers have 50K scientific facts that are incompatible with an accidental mechanical universe. I wish I had just one of these facts.

Interestingly enough, this reference to 50K scientific facts “that are incompatible with an accidental mechanical universe” was the theme for the 2016 Science Symposium in Chicago this last June. One of these papers by Ralph Zehr on cell biology gives many facts which fall into this category. Thousands of molecular factories and transfer mechanisms have now been identified in the cell, and all of them work together in functional unity to support the living whole of the cell. This fact is effectively conclusive scientific proof that the living cell is engineered, that it is the result of intelligent design. At least this is true for those scientists who are willing to look objectively at the empirical evidence, instead of seeing everything through the filter of their subjective and unsubstantiated belief in the doctrine of materialism.

The “miracles” you mention are already there . The invisible things of God are partially manifest in the material things of creation to all those who might look for evidence of God.
GeneParticipant
Oct 10, 2016, 5:39 PM
Thanks for the reference to Zeher.
GeneParticipant
Oct 10, 2016, 11:10 PM
One thing is for certain: the observable universe supports life, not mechanisms. How totally unselfish. Mechanisms cannot be unselfish.

long ago there were real thinkers that did not have mechanist issues, when Jesus and Ganid were studying religions in Alexandria Jesus was moved to give Ganid a lengthy discourse on reality based on information from Greek teachings especially their idea that “the material things of the world are shadowy reflections of invisible but more substantial spiritual realities”.

the world of the Greeks of that time was small relative to today but if the people who understood this were alive today and informed about recent discoveries they would not change their thinking – and would see the update as confirmation of their thinking – IMHO.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 11, 2016, 11:51 AM

Gene wrote:

Jesus was moved to give Ganid a lengthy discourse on reality based on information from Greek teachings especially their idea that “the material things of the world are shadowy reflections of invisible but more substantial spiritual realities”.

That had to do with Greek philosophers. I thought you were talking about scientists. If scientists could also be philosophers, it would solve a lot of problems. Philosophy is that middle ground which marries science with religion. You don’t see too much of that today. I think philosophy is still deep in the dark ages. Recall that we, as a planet, have not fully emerged from the post-Planetary Prince era when it comes to philosophic thought. Kinda scary isn’t it?

52:2.4 This dispensation witnesses a spiritual dawn, and the different races and their various tribes tend to develop specialized systems of religious and philosophic thought. There uniformly run through all of these racial religions two strains: the early fears of primitive men and the later revelations of the Planetary Prince. In some respects Urantians do not seem to have wholly emerged from this stage of planetary evolution. As you pursue this study, you will the more clearly discern how far your world departs from the average course of evolutionary progress and development.
GeneParticipant
Oct 12, 2016, 3:27 AM
Yes, it was science and philosophy happened so easy I didn’t notice.

but that Greek quote was an idea of such magnitude that scientists, philosophers and religionists should have been working on diligently since it was first presented. and it wasn’t really presented as a question, more like a statement of fact.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 12, 2016, 12:58 PM

Gene wrote:

but that Greek quote was an idea of such magnitude that scientists, philosophers and religionists should have been working on diligently since it was first presented. and it wasn’t really presented as a question, more like a statement of fact.

It’s a bigger problem than you suspect. Greek philosophy is a repercussion of the Melchizedek teachings. Obviously humans are unable to hold onto revelation for very long, nor are they very adept at understanding and utilizing it. It goes back to the confusion caused when Lucifer’s minions destroyed all the schools which could have laid the foundation for human thought for the ages. Human thinking has no solid substructure to build on, therefore philosophy is still stuck in the Planetary Prince age where it’s substructure became foiled. I find it interesting that TUB has come along at a time when we humans might finally be moving out of the morass created by the perversion of thought. This revelation is in writing which means it might have a more lasting effect on correcting thought substructure. That is, if humans understand it and utilize it properly. Which is why study groups are so very, very important.

50:4.12 It was one of the most profoundly shocking episodes of this rebellion for me to learn of the callous perfidy of one of my own order of sonship, Caligastia, who, in deliberation and with malice aforethought, systematically perverted the instruction and poisoned the teaching provided in all the Urantia planetary schools in operation at that time. The wreck of these schools was speedy and complete.
Van AmadonParticipant
Oct 12, 2016, 2:13 PM
And when you look at what’s going on in the election, you can see that Caligastia is still very hard at work.

The level of how many are squirming at the moment suggests that the brink of what we’re waiting for, an uplift, is imminent.
GeneParticipant
Oct 12, 2016, 2:33 PM
Systematically preverting instruction and poisoning teaching is much worse than simply destroying it.

Appears we have inherited this trait.

i never put this in perspective before, thx Bonita

makes me consider how the worship and wisdom adjutants are impacted. Without their influence our scientists and philosophers are dealing with just knowledge. Nothing more.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 12, 2016, 2:48 PM

Gene wrote:

makes me consider how the worship and wisdom adjutants are impacted. Without their influence our scientists and philosophers are dealing with just knowledge. Nothing more.

You’re onto it Gene. The problem, as I see it, is that scientists think that facts are truth, which they are not. Yes, they may be true, but that doesn’t make them truth. Truth is that higher level of thought found at the soul level, which is accessed by the spirits of worship and wisdom. There is a lot of confusional thought going around, that’s for sure.
GeneParticipant
Oct 12, 2016, 2:48 PM

VanAmadon wrote:

And when you look at what’s going on in the election, you can see that Caligastia is still very hard at work. The level of how many are squirming at the moment suggests that the brink of what we’re waiting for, an uplift, is imminent.

wont let myself get sidetracked on political bs but with some effort, worship and wisdom there is a big picture I sincerely believe has value for us all. I don’t think it will manifest in my lifetime however.

TUB and forums like this are the uplift.
Van AmadonParticipant
Oct 12, 2016, 2:50 PM
The uplift is you.
nelsongParticipant
Oct 12, 2016, 3:32 PM

VanAmadon wrote:

The uplift is you.

Us.
Van AmadonParticipant
Oct 12, 2016, 3:55 PM
Yes, us.

143:1:7

“Today, the unbelievers may taunt you with preaching a gospel of nonresistance and with living lives of nonviolence, but you are the first volunteers of a long line of sincere believers in the gospel of this kingdom who will astonish all mankind by their heroic devotion to these teachings. No armies of the world have ever displayed more courage and bravery than will be portrayed by you and your loyal successors who shall go forth to all the world proclaiming the good news — the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of men. The courage of the flesh is the lowest form of bravery. Mind bravery is a higher type of human courage, but the highest and supreme is uncompromising loyalty to the enlightened convictions of profound spiritual realities. And such courage constitutes the heroism of the God-knowing man. And you are all God-knowing men; you are in very truth the personal associates of the Son of Man.”
GeneParticipant
Oct 12, 2016, 5:23 PM

VanAmadon wrote:

Yes, us.

143:1:7

“Today, the unbelievers may taunt you with preaching a gospel of nonresistance and with living lives of nonviolence, but you are the first volunteers of a long line of sincere believers in the gospel of this kingdom who will astonish all mankind by their heroic devotion to these teachings. No armies of the world have ever displayed more courage and bravery than will be portrayed by you and your loyal successors who shall go forth to all the world proclaiming the good news — the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of men. The courage of the flesh is the lowest form of bravery. Mind bravery is a higher type of human courage, but the highest and supreme is uncompromising loyalty to the enlightened convictions of profound spiritual realities. And such courage constitutes the heroism of the God-knowing man. And you are all God-knowing men; you are in very truth the personal associates of the Son of Man.”
BonitaParticipant
Oct 12, 2016, 6:13 PM
So what do you all think mind bravery is about?
nelsongParticipant
Oct 12, 2016, 7:09 PM
My short answer is: self improvement, real self improvement based on the attempt to do gods will.

always an inner battle, for me anyway.

Like anything of value, if we dont do it ourselves we will hardly be able to influence others.

Take forgiveness – I like this one and dont mean to get off track but somewhere in the book I recall being told that in order to receive it we must first learn how to give it.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 12, 2016, 9:58 PM
Actually, my question was meant to get the discussion back on track. I think what you’re talking about, Gene is more in line with “loyalty to the enlightened convictions of profound spiritual realities,” spiritual realities being the will of God.

I was leaning more toward courageous thinking, daring to engage the higher adjutants in the pursuit of wisdom. They tell us how sad it is that there are so few courageous thinkers on this planet. It wouldn’t be so courageous if we had the Prince’s and Material Son’s schools of thought as our foundation for thinking. It would be more or less a matter of course. But because we have no one to set guidelines for wisdom, it takes a lot of courage to seek it. Wisdom is what pulls science out of a fact-based existence into the next dimension. Wisdom and philosophy go hand in hand as part of mind bravery. I think it’s about heeding those reality reflexes of mind which all of us have free access to.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 13, 2016, 2:16 PM
I wasn’t going to say anything about whether or not it’s “you” or “us” who do the uplifting because it has nothing at all to do with the topic, but I changed my mind because I can’t abide poppycock If you read the quote provided by Van/nod carefully, the last sentence explains the uplifting process, and it’s neither “you” or “us” who do the uplifting.

143:1.7 And you are all God-knowing men; you are in very truth the personal associates of the Son of Man.

We humans are not the uplifters. We are associates of the Uplifter, but if and only if we allow the Son to do his own uplifting. We must allow the Spirit of Truth to do his own work as explained in 178:1.16. (How we do that might be a discussion for another thread.) Jesus told us over and over again that he is the one lifted up, or uplifted. He is the Uplifter because uplifting requires spiritual drawing power, i.e. spiritual gravity. We humans don’t have that, which is why we are supposed to allow him to do his own spiritual gravity work of uplifting. Our work is to allow him to do his work of uplifting within our lives. We are merely associates, co-workers, co-creators. Always will there be a “co-” attached to anything we do that can be considered righteous.

108:4.1 Said your Paradise bestowal Son when yet on Urantia, “I, if I am lifted up, will draw all men.”

157:6.10 “No man in this world now sees the Father except the Son who came forth from the Father. But if the Son be lifted up, he will draw all men to himself, and whosoever believes this truth of the combined nature of the Son shall be endowed with life that is more than age-abiding.”

174:5.13 “And now I declare to you that I, if I be lifted up on earth and in your lives, will draw all men to myself and into the fellowship of my Father.

162:5.4 “When the Son of Man is lifted up, then shall you all know that I am he, and that I have done nothing of myself but only as the Father has taught me. I speak these words to you and to your children. And he who sent me is even now with me; he has not left me alone, for I do always that which is pleasing in his sight.”

195:10.1 And when Jesus becomes thus lifted up, he will draw all men to himself. Jesus’ disciples should be more than conquerors, even overflowing sources of inspiration and enhanced living to all men. Religion is only an exalted humanism until it is made divine by the discovery of the reality of the presence of God in personal experience.

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