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What Is Goodness? Why Is Only God Good? Is It Really "All Good"?

106 posts · 6 participants · started Mar 9, 2016, 12:19 PM

BradlyParticipant
Mar 16, 2016, 4:25 PM
Great quotes Bonita!! I agree there is a point in progression where evil “doesn’t really matter much”….and the quotes posted go straight to an important perspective on some evil….which is but the error of strategy, tactic, or response….but not any error of motive or intention. Wisdom comes by experience-realized result-discernment….even love motivated choice may still not be the better or best or perfect choice response in all situations. The universe is an education of progressively making the wiser choice by the error lessons from less wise choices.

Our will alignment with Father does not bring instant wisdom or experience….such remains, ideally, progressive but still evolutionary in its results over time. By this definition evil is neither bad nor good….it is simply a mistake or error which is utilized for further education.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Mar 16, 2016, 6:36 PM

Bradly wrote: . . . the error of strategy, tactic, or response….but not any error of motive or intention.

That’s important Bradly. It reminds me of the quote that says you can be absolutely right about the facts but totally wrong about the truth. (48:6.33) Mortal thinking begins with facts, then moves to meanings and finally to values. (118:5.3) It makes sense that an individual with righteous motives might think the facts of a situation are right and make a choice based on those facts without fully understanding their meaning, let alone value. That may be an imperfect choice, even an evil one, but if that individual is not fully conscious of the degree of imperfection or evil in such a choice, it is not to his/her detriment in the long run. It’s not a sin, it’s just another sincere decision on the great psychic circuit of growth and progress. It may move an individual forward, or it might mean another go at it from a different perspective. I think perspectives can change by enlarging the capacity of receptivity through prayer.

The more you identify with the nature of the Father, the more you recognize the potential for fatherly love when you come across it. So when the decision comes around again, that sort of enlarged insight might lead an individual to consider not just the facts, but the meanings as well, maybe even more. The resulting sincere decision would be less imperfect, more perfect and hence more forward moving. I think the really important thing is willingness to be spirit led. This can happen at any level of decision making. If the motive is to discover God’s will and the intention is to do it, then decisions qualify as being sincere. Don’t you think?

I have to say that over the years, some of the most shocking things I’ve come to realize is the misinterpretation by others of my motives for doing something. I’ve done things with what I considered at the time to be great sincerity, wishing to helpful, well meaning, an attempt at doing something loving, only to discover that it was received with resentment, suspicion and sometimes hostility. It’s devastating to the spirit, but on closer inspection, I can often see how and why it all went wrong. I think the original decision was imperfect, not the better or best way to do something. It often takes several attempts to get from good to better and finally to best. And even then, I’m sure there’s bester and bestest yet to come. I think God leads us to the better way, if we’re willing, and then onward.

12:7.7 The will of God does not uniformly prevail in the heart of the God-seeking material mortal, but if the time frame is enlarged beyond the moment to embrace the whole of the first life, then does God’s will become increasingly discernible in the spirit fruits which are borne in the lives of the spirit-led children of God. And then, if human life is further enlarged to include the morontia experience, the divine will is observed to shine brighter and brighter in the spiritualizing acts of those creatures of time who have begun to taste the divine delights of experiencing the relationship of the personality of man with the personality of the Universal Father.
BradlyParticipant
Mar 16, 2016, 6:50 PM
Bonita wrote:

If the motive is to discover God’s will and the intention is to do it, then decisions qualify as being sincere. Don’t you think?

Yes indeed I do!!! It’s all about sincerity and our heart which is our motive for living and our intention at every intersection of choice and relationship.

We are taught the goodness and value in uncertainty…we are to learn to truly enjoy and anticipate the unknown and unpredictable as a grand adventure with wonder and mystery attending our progress for a very long time….to feast and fatten. Only a pure heart and motive can ever hope to achieve this confidence amidst all uncertainty.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Mar 16, 2016, 7:17 PM

Bradly wrote: We are taught the goodness and value in uncertainty . . .

So don’t you think that there is naturally some uncertainty about our own goodness? Can we ever be certain of our own goodness? I think we can certainly recognize goodness in others, but our own has to be unconscious and hence uncertain. Which is why it’s better to ascribe all goodness to God, and better to go on striving for goodness as an eternal goal.

Bradly wrote: Only a pure heart and motive can ever hope to achieve this confidence amidst all uncertainty.

I think confidence comes from one’s relationship with God. If I recognize myself as a son of God, I know that relationship can never change. My earth father used to say, “I’m your father and always will be, and there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it, so deal with it!” The same goes for God. If I’m his son, I can’t undo his fatherhood. It’s built into the relationship as a forever thing. It’s that forever thing that gives confidence. Just like my earth father, I know my spirit Father will always claim me as his son, even if I temporarily go missing. It’s a such a comfort, this sonship thing. It’s what the parable of the prodigal son is all about.

When it comes to God’s love, I don’t have to worry too much about doing the right or wrong thing. In other words, I can do the wrong thing and get another chance to make it right, another chance to recognize the difference between evil and good, imperfect and perfect, error and truth, incomplete and complete, immature and mature, not my Father’s way and my Father’s way. Thank you God for those chances, those mercy coupons you so willingly dole out!
BradlyParticipant
Mar 17, 2016, 1:10 PM
Well Sister….there’s plenty of uncertainty about MY goodness!!! Hahahahahaha…. I think the teaching that the act is ours and the consequences are God’s goes directly to what you’ve said above – the saying is about the acts by one who is love motivated and with right intentions, not about the sinful acts of choosing based on self serving or other dominating which will require love motivated responses by others to mitigate such consequences which attend such choices and then overcome, even overwhelm, all such consequences over time. In other words, what is done in love and service will bear its fruit regardless of the errors of strategy and tactic due to immaturity – to the one who so chooses, to others in the vicinity of the one, and to the eternal Supreme.

Sin is an irrelevancy….over time….or it provides opportunity for love response by another or many others or all others which further strengthens that love response and not only fades away the temporal effects of sin itself but the auto-immune response of love actually increases the health and strength of the whole. God is love and the law of love is universal which results in the dominance of goodness in reality. Non-reality includes both sin and the well intentioned errors of personal growth and wisdom building. This most certainly does not mean that what we choose and do does not matter, but it does mean that it is the motive and intention that delivers value to ourselves and to others. God will see to it that love is never squandered and its effects in time will be realized no matter the tadpole’s wisdom or lack thereof. I am reminded of the exponential goodness that has come by love response to the rebellion over time which has resulted in a significant net gain in truth, beauty, and goodness in Nebadon as a result of even grave iniquity and disloyalty. So, even the consequences of sin is washed away by the pure motives and intentions of response in the universe.

I also recall the lesson by the Master about the fact that the lust in one’s heart is sin regardless of the act which may or may not follow – the motive and intent are measured by God even before the act which comes by such motive.

When we are told that it is “sincerity, sincerity, and more sincerity” that propels the soul into its destiny, we are being encouraged, I think, to not be too mindful of the consequences of immature and inexperienced strategies and tactics….as God will deliver the goodness that is due all such sincerity. I think this is the reason that, indeed…”It Really Is All Good”. For that which is not good is both temporal and further opportunity for goodness to prevail in time and by the choice of those who are love motivated and service intentioned.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 17, 2016, 1:23 PM

Bonita wrote in part:

…Whenever we are faced with the potential for evil and we opt against it, aren’t we really choosing God’s way of goodness?

Well, yeah, it’s a negative way of saying, ‘I choose the good’. And I agree with your statement about the revulsion and stigma around the word evil, but good and error don’t quite fill the bill.

Good and evil, rather than being studied and understood, have been relegated to antiquity and old tyme religion, seems like. Is this universal concept of ethical, moral, and spiritual orientation in time and space no longer viable on a world of apparent relativities?

Good and evil was a central theme when I was growing up. And maybe it’s always here, our heroes are usually do gooders even today, we just don’t talk about good and evil as a guidelines to perfection–total absence of evil.

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 17, 2016, 1:29 PM

Bradly wrote in part:

…The universe is an education of progressively making the wiser choice by the error lessons from less wise choices.

Ha! Well said.

…By this definition evil is neither bad nor good….it is simply a mistake or error which is utilized for further education.

Also well said!

.

Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 17, 2016, 1:36 PM

Bonita wrote:

Bradly wrote: We are taught the goodness and value in uncertainty . . .

So don’t you think that there is naturally some uncertainty about our own goodness? Can we ever be certain of our own goodness? I think we can certainly recognize goodness in others, but our own has to be unconscious and hence uncertain. Which is why it’s better to ascribe all goodness to God, and better to go on striving for goodness as an eternal goal.

Bradly wrote: Only a pure heart and motive can ever hope to achieve this confidence amidst all uncertainty.

I think confidence comes from one’s relationship with God. If I recognize myself as a son of God, I know that relationship can never change. My earth father used to say, “I’m your father and always will be, and there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it, so deal with it!” The same goes for God. If I’m his son, I can’t undo his fatherhood. It’s built into the relationship as a forever thing. It’s that forever thing that gives confidence. Just like my earth father, I know my spirit Father will always claim me as his son, even if I temporarily go missing. It’s a such a comfort, this sonship thing. It’s what the parable of the prodigal son is all about. When it comes to God’s love, I don’t have to worry too much about doing the right or wrong thing. In other words, I can do the wrong thing and get another chance to make it right, another chance to recognize the difference between evil and good, imperfect and perfect, error and truth, incomplete and complete, immature and mature, not my Father’s way and my Father’s way. Thank you God for those chances, those mercy coupons you so willingly dole out!

Yes, thank you Father. Such a good God.
.

Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 17, 2016, 1:50 PM

Bradly wrote:

Well Sister….there’s plenty of uncertainty about MY goodness!!! Hahahahahaha…. I think the teaching that the act is ours and the consequences are God’s goes directly to what you’ve said above – the saying is about the acts by one who is love motivated and with right intentions, not about the sinful acts of choosing based on self serving or other dominating which will require love motivated responses by others to mitigate such consequences which attend such choices and then overcome, even overwhelm, all such consequences over time. In other words, what is done in love and service will bear its fruit regardless of the errors of strategy and tactic due to immaturity – to the one who so chooses, to others in the vicinity of the one, and to the eternal Supreme. Sin is an irrelevancy….over time….or it provides opportunity for love response by another or many others or all others which further strengthens that love response and not only fades away the temporal effects of sin itself but the auto-immune response of love actually increases the health and strength of the whole. God is love and the law of love is universal which results in the dominance of goodness in reality. Non-reality includes both sin and the well intentioned errors of personal growth and wisdom building. This most certainly does not mean that what we choose and do does not matter, but it does mean that it is the motive and intention that delivers value to ourselves and to others. God will see to it that love is never squandered and its effects in time will be realized no matter the tadpole’s wisdom or lack thereof. I am reminded of the exponential goodness that has come by love response to the rebellion over time which has resulted in a significant net gain in truth, beauty, and goodness in Nebadon as a result of even grave iniquity and disloyalty. So, even the consequences of sin is washed away by the pure motives and intentions of response in the universe. I also recall the lesson by the Master about the fact that the lust in one’s heart is sin regardless of the act which may or may not follow – the motive and intent are measured by God even before the act which comes by such motive. When we are told that it is “sincerity, sincerity, and more sincerity” that propels the soul into its destiny, we are being encouraged, I think, to not be too mindful of the consequences of immature and inexperienced strategies and tactics….as God will deliver the goodness that is due all such sincerity. I think this is the reason that, indeed…”It Really Is All Good”. For that which is not good is both temporal and further opportunity for goodness to prevail in time and by the choice of those who are love motivated and service intentioned.

Excellent commentary, Bradly, thanks much for the above. But you hit one of my hot buttons in the last sentences. I’ve always cringed on hearing the phrase: “It’s all good”. And yes, the authors say even the system rebellion has netted a “thousandfold” the evil it precipitated, but was it all good? Doesn’t that justify, or at least excuse mountains of needless suffering? Is it good when war hits a hospital? When a child is abused? When faith is destroyed? When humans refuse eternity out of pride? If it was indeed ALL good, it would be Havona, no?

.

Richard E Warren
BradlyParticipant
Mar 17, 2016, 2:09 PM
Thanks Rick. Yes…perhaps my claim is far too sweeping? I can offer nothing “good” about temporal and material suffering by those who suffer by the motives, intentions, and choices of others or due to the accidents of time….unless of course it is by such suffering that the victim calls upon God for succor and release in faith and looks to that better time to come with a yearning and hopeful heart. I know, intellectually that all such suffering is temporal and glory lies ahead….but this does not excuse nor relieve the suffering of others.

My claim is insensitive….if not inaccurate. I pray for all who so suffer every day and hope for their relief.

Good point Rick.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Mar 17, 2016, 2:57 PM

Rick Warren wrote: But you hit one of my hot buttons in the last sentences. I’ve always cringed on hearing the phrase: “It’s all good”. And yes, the authors say even the system rebellion has netted a “thousandfold” the evil it precipitated, but was it all good? Doesn’t that justify, or at least excuse mountains of needless suffering? Is it good when war hits a hospital? When a child is abused? When faith is destroyed? When humans refuse eternity out of pride? If it was indeed ALL good, it would be Havona, no?

Come on Rick! Such sappy, crybaby nonsense. Don’t dwell on the tiny dots of black in the massive ocean of white. Of course it’s all good. Suffering is never wasted. Most of us don’t need to see or experience as much of it as we do, but it’s not about you or me. It’s about the total, the collective. What does it take to get all of humanity to realize that less suffering is desirable? Don’t you think that eventually a certain threshold will be reached when collectively we all say, “ENOUGH ALREADY”. Groups of people have been saying that for ages and ages, but not the total population, especially when threatened in some way (It’s our animal nature that must evolve).

Listen, I was just a kid when pictures of the inside of concentration camps came out. I remember staring into the eyes of those emaciated faces and seeing the piles of naked dead bodies and wanting to throw up. But I also want to throw up every time I turn on BBC’s Planet Earth and see a leopard chewing on a half-dead twitching zebra. Suffering is built into the system. We can’t ever get rid of all suffering. So quit whining about it.

Now there! Don’t you feel like I’m your mother giving you a tongue lashing for being a bad boy? Sorry, I don’t mean to be so harsh, but I just can’t stand it when people carry on about the suffering in the world. No, we don’t like it. Yes, we need to minimize it. And it is good that we see the truth about it and want to take action. It is really good. And what is good about it is the process of collective, planetary evolution, growth and progress toward light and life. We will eventually arrive at a level of existence where suffering is rare, but not entirely absent. We will get there, and that is good, very good. The fact that we have to work at it, that we must take a long soulful look at suffering and experience it first hand for ourselves is also very, very good.

All you have to do is look at the blood-dripping figure of Jesus nailed to a tree to realize that suffering has its place in this world. One of the purposes of the symbol of the cross is to stop timid folks from whining and to encourage their half-hearted souls to go on with the good fight of faith, to look at suffering as a medal earned in battle. How’s that quote go? ” . . . to feast upon uncertainty, to fatten upon disappointment, to enthuse over apparent defeat, to invigorate in the presence of difficulties, to exhibit indomitable courage in the face of immensity, and to exercise unconquerable faith when confronted with the challenge of the inexplicable.”(26:5.3)

159:3.8 There is but one struggle for those who enter the kingdom, and that is to fight the good fight of faith.

188:5.5 On millions of inhabited worlds, tens of trillions of evolving creatures who may have been tempted to give up the moral struggle and abandon the good fight of faith, have taken one more look at Jesus on the cross and then have forged on ahead, inspired by the sight of God’s laying down his incarnate life in devotion to the unselfish service of man.

If our God is full of compassion and long-suffering, then we should be full of that too. Long-suffering is a fruit of the spirit, last I checked. Why do you suppose we are supposed to suffer long? I think we need suffering to learn patience, to become tolerant and forgiving. We need suffering to exercise our altruistic muscles, to learn charitableness and understanding. Doesn’t TUB state that in the higher stages of planetary light and life we all take pleasure in sharing one another’s burdens? If that’s so, then we need to fully appreciate suffering. Long-suffering is very, very, very good. Okay, end of sermon.
BradlyParticipant
Mar 17, 2016, 3:36 PM
Bonita….I love your preachin’ as much as your teachin’!!!!

I would add that one of the very most inspiring realities that comes from suffering is the piercing light of truth, beauty, AND goodness that is so commonly and freely given by and from the victims of suffering. It is thrilling to truly “see” the examples given us by so many “victims”. Malala is but one and a famous one of such an example. Whether it is the victims of war, cruelty, hunger, flood, homelessness, or refugee – when one looks closely they will witness courage, kindness, forgiveness, generosity, etc. Why and how so? How can suffering victims rise above the evil and iniquity which victimizes them personally and still provide Divine guidance by their personal response to their own suffering?

The real victims of suffering are most often those who suffer by their own motives, intentions, words, and deeds (self victimization)…and not those who rise above the suffering imposed by others. I have long struggled with this apparent unfairness of the victimization of others and the innocent who suffer therefrom. But not all victims “suffer” so much as “overcome”….and teach by such example. One of the teachings that has become very influential in my life is that of “false sympathy” – this is most blind and unwise. We are to seek out the true victims in our world and do what we may to ease their suffering with compassion but not so for those who are self-victimized. Those who seek and receive sympathy for their own stupidity and self centered choices cannot learn by the consequences of such choices when they feast upon the false sympathy of others. Such sympathies are not only misplaced but are truly detrimental to all concerned – the sympathizee and the sympathizer.

The nobility of some victims should make us each and all marvel at such strength of character and make us shudder when we consider our own choices of motive, intent, and act that do not measure up to such magnificent example provided by those who suffer and yet remain true to the inner light of love.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
AnonymousInactive
Mar 17, 2016, 11:29 PM
It would appear that in order to be “All Good”, it would also, so some indicate that “all” is a “collective”, where then would represent a “Collective Good”. Also, if only “God is Good”, and as we are told that a peace of God resides in us, then only a part of us has the capacity to be “Good”, regardless of how hard we try to be perfect, to match that fragment within us, will we never be perfect, because we cannot be totally God. To be perfect as God is perfect is also impossible because we are only a part of the whole. We can however, attempt to be perfect with that which we have been given, and cannot be the first source and center without separating oneself as like the trinity in order to function or associate with individuals and those who reside in a collective group. Therefore we as individuals can never be perfect or good on our own. If being collectively good, as in a group does not indicate that those individual parts are all the same because if this were so, then there would be no contract in which to compare goodness or perfection. Being made male and female indicates that there must be a compromise between a pair or multiple pairs where the spirit which binds them or not, must constantly be adjusted in order to maintain balance. Balance is good, and if worked on can be perfect or perfected, but in a universe of motion and spirit gravity requires practice in perfecting that good balance where if two wish to come together they must move ever to slowly to the point of the fulcrum on a scale between three points. Can one have harmony with only two notes, or does it require a third note? Compromise is that third note, and there can be no harmony between only two or for that mater, one note. Where if all are in a collective tone, there can be no harmony.

(938.9) 84:6.5 The differences of nature, reaction, viewpoint, and thinking between men and women, far from occasioning concern, should be regarded as highly beneficial to mankind, both individually and collectively. Many orders of universe creatures are created in dual phases of personality manifestation. Among mortals, Material Sons, and midsoniters, this difference is described as male and female; among seraphim, cherubim, and Morontia Companions, it has been denominated positive or aggressive and negative or retiring. Such dual associations greatly multiply versatility and overcome inherent limitations, even as do certain triune associations in the Paradise-Havona system.

(939.1) 84:6.6 Men and women need each other in their morontial and spiritual as well as in their mortal careers. The differences in viewpoint between male and female persist even beyond the first life and throughout the local and superuniverse ascensions. And even in Havona, the pilgrims who were once men and women will still be aiding each other in the Paradise ascent. Never, even in the Corps of the Finality, will the creature metamorphose so far as to obliterate the personality trends that humans call male and female; always will these two basic variations of humankind continue to intrigue, stimulate, encourage, and assist each other; always will they be mutually dependent on co-operation in the solution of perplexing universe problems and in the overcoming of manifold cosmic difficulties.

If we are all assimilated as one into a collective we would cease to exist of be individuals. If we are not individuals and different there would be no reason to compromise or have a reason to come together, in order to produce something better then what is. If there is no opportunity to make change, will there be not progress. If there is not change, then what is static becomes good and complacent in non-perfection. Therefore to take the attitude as in the following, there would be no growth once everyone has been assimilated back into the ONE, from where we all started, and becomes non-existence for that ONE.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 18, 2016, 4:16 PM

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote: But you hit one of my hot buttons in the last sentences. I’ve always cringed on hearing the phrase: “It’s all good”. And yes, the authors say even the system rebellion has netted a “thousandfold” the evil it precipitated, but was it all good? Doesn’t that justify, or at least excuse mountains of needless suffering? Is it good when war hits a hospital? When a child is abused? When faith is destroyed? When humans refuse eternity out of pride? If it was indeed ALL good, it would be Havona, no?

Come on Rick! Such sappy, crybaby nonsense. Don’t dwell on the tiny dots of black in the massive ocean of white. Of course it’s all good. Suffering is never wasted. Most of us don’t need to see or experience as much of it as we do, but it’s not about you or me. It’s about the total, the collective. What does it take to get all of humanity to realize that less suffering is desirable? Don’t you think that eventually a certain threshold will be reached when collectively we all say, “ENOUGH ALREADY”. Groups of people have been saying that for ages and ages, but not the total population, especially when threatened in some way (It’s our animal nature that must evolve). Listen, I was just a kid when pictures of the inside of concentration camps came out. I remember staring into the eyes of those emaciated faces and seeing the piles of naked dead bodies and wanting to throw up. But I also want to throw up every time I turn on BBC’s Planet Earth and see a leopard chewing on a half-dead twitching zebra. Suffering is built into the system. We can’t ever get rid of all suffering. So quit whining about it. Now there! Don’t you feel like I’m your mother giving you a tongue lashing for being a bad boy? Sorry, I don’t mean to be so harsh, but I just can’t stand it when people carry on about the suffering in the world. No, we don’t like it. Yes, we need to minimize it. And it is good that we see the truth about it and want to take action. It is really good. And what is good about it is the process of collective, planetary evolution, growth and progress toward light and life. We will eventually arrive at a level of existence where suffering is rare, but not entirely absent. We will get there, and that is good, very good. The fact that we have to work at it, that we must take a long soulful look at suffering and experience it first hand for ourselves is also very, very good. All you have to do is look at the blood-dripping figure of Jesus nailed to a tree to realize that suffering has its place in this world. One of the purposes of the symbol of the cross is to stop timid folks from whining and to encourage their half-hearted souls to go on with the good fight of faith, to look at suffering as a medal earned in battle. How’s that quote go? ” . . . to feast upon uncertainty, to fatten upon disappointment, to enthuse over apparent defeat, to invigorate in the presence of difficulties, to exhibit indomitable courage in the face of immensity, and to exercise unconquerable faith when confronted with the challenge of the inexplicable.”(26:5.3)

159:3.8 There is but one struggle for those who enter the kingdom, and that is to fight the good fight of faith. 188:5.5 On millions of inhabited worlds, tens of trillions of evolving creatures who may have been tempted to give up the moral struggle and abandon the good fight of faith, have taken one more look at Jesus on the cross and then have forged on ahead, inspired by the sight of God’s laying down his incarnate life in devotion to the unselfish service of man.

If our God is full of compassion and long-suffering, then we should be full of that too. Long-suffering is a fruit of the spirit, last I checked. Why do you suppose we are supposed to suffer long? I think we need suffering to learn patience, to become tolerant and forgiving. We need suffering to exercise our altruistic muscles, to learn charitableness and understanding. Doesn’t TUB state that in the higher stages of planetary light and life we all take pleasure in sharing one another’s burdens? If that’s so, then we need to fully appreciate suffering. Long-suffering is very, very, very good. Okay, end of sermon.

We’ll have to disagree on this one, Bonita. When God is forced to execute his evil doing sons, and when trillions of other sons and daughters suffer needlessly it isn’t good and nothing can make it good, not even God.

…even the infinite God cannot create square circles or produce evil that is inherently good…. ^(1299.1) ^118:5.1

Imagine approaching Our Father after his beloved child’s life has been taken by his own decision, and telling God: “It’s all good”. And when people turn away from God, that can’t be good. Goodness can overcome evil, we well know, but that doesn’t make the original evil good.

.

Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 18, 2016, 4:23 PM

MidiChlorian wrote:

…Also, if only “God is Good”, and as we are told that a peace of God resides in us, then only a part of us has the capacity to be “Good”, regardless of how hard we try to be perfect, to match that fragment within us, will we never be perfect, because we cannot be totally God.

Good point.

.

Richard E Warren
George ParkParticipant
Mar 18, 2016, 4:34 PM

Rick Warren wrote:

But you hit one of my hot buttons in the last sentences. I’ve always cringed on hearing the phrase: “It’s all good”. And yes, the authors say even the system rebellion has netted a “thousandfold” the evil it precipitated, but was it all good? Doesn’t that justify, or at least excuse mountains of needless suffering? Is it good when war hits a hospital? When a child is abused? When faith is destroyed? When humans refuse eternity out of pride?

You raise a very salient point. The Problem of Evil is an ancient and important one. While God cannot be objectively proven to exist, atheists inevitably trot out the following argument as proof that God does not exist: If God is all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing and infinitely good, why does he permit the unjust persecution, torment and death of the truly innocent? Faith, being a spiritual insight, is never seriously troubled by these sorts of arguments, but theology, the attempt to understand religion, is. The religious effort to vindicate the divine attributes and character of God leads to theodicy. The religion of every age has had to struggle with the real problem created by the difference between what faith can discern and what reason can see.

The need for theodicy is not limited to this life on this world. In Paper 54 a Mighty Messenger lists 12 reasons for allowing the Lucifer rebellion to run its course and says there are 12 more we might be able to understand. He then mentions that 48 reasons are taught on Uversa. What this suggests is that even this far along in the Paradise journey, we will not fully understand why Lucifer was not apprehended sooner by the universe government, limiting the evil he could work. In the end, only faith can reach beyond a confused and uncertain reason to lay hold of the final truth about the goodness of God.
BonitaParticipant
Mar 18, 2016, 4:56 PM

Rick Warren wrote:

When God is forced to execute his evil doing sons . . .

Rick, you know better. God doesn’t execute anyone and he does get to keep the personality and every good experience as part of the Supreme. Nothing is lost except nothing. I can’t imagine God getting upset about losing nothing. God keeps all that is good. And everyone in the universe is willing to suffer, to carry their brothers’ burdens, if necessary. Yes, we differ immensely on this one, like lightyears and lightyears apart.

I know we both have suffered a lot, but I think my personal suffering has had a very good effect in the long run. I’m not sorry or bitter about any of it. Do I wish I didn’t have to suffer all of it? Yes. But when I look at it all very closely, I realize that a great deal of my suffering was due to the actions of others rather than my own. I’m happy to bear their burdens. We’re told that we can suffer less if we accept our lot when we’ve faithfully performed our duty.(48:6.36)In fact, willingness to remain steadfast in the midst of non-self inflicted suffering can increase your spiritual worth. (54:6.7) Which is why I’m happy about it.

I’m not saying that the universe doesn’t prefer to diminish suffering, but suffering cannot be abolished entirely in the experiential worlds. It plays an important role and is therefore good for the whole, or the all. It’s all good.

12:7.13 No person can escape the benefits or the penalties that may come as a result of relationship to other persons. The part profits or suffers in measure with the whole. The good effort of each man benefits all men; the error or evil of each man augments the tribulation of all men. As moves the part, so moves the whole. As the progress of the whole, so the progress of the part. The relative velocities of part and whole determine whether the part is retarded by the inertia of the whole or is carried forward by the momentum of the cosmic brotherhood.

31:10.12 During the present universe age the evolving personalities of the grand universe suffer many difficulties due to the incomplete actualization of the sovereignty of God the Supreme, but we are all sharing the unique experience of his evolution. We evolve in him and he evolves in us.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 18, 2016, 5:15 PM

George Park wrote:

You raise a very salient point. The Problem of Evil is an ancient and important one. While God cannot be objectively proven to exist, atheists inevitably trot out the following argument as proof that God does not exist: If God is all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing and infinitely good, why does he permit the unjust persecution, torment and death of the truly innocent? Faith, being a spiritual insight, is never seriously troubled by these sorts of arguments, but theology, the attempt to understand religion, is. The religious effort to vindicate the divine attributes and character of God leads to theodicy. The religion of every age has had to struggle with the real problem created by the difference between what faith can discern and what reason can see. The need for theodicy is not limited to this life on this world. In Paper 54 a Mighty Messenger lists 12 reasons for allowing the Lucifer rebellion to run its course and says there are 12 more we might be able to understand. He then mentions that 48 reasons are taught on Uversa. What this suggests is that even this far along in the Paradise journey, we will not fully understand why Lucifer was not apprehended sooner by the universe government, limiting the evil he could work. In the end, only faith can reach beyond a confused and uncertain reason to lay hold of the final truth about the goodness of God.

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback, Gene, and for introducing Theodicy, a little known yet fascinating and philosophically relevant concept. And it has two cousin concepts, one for those who would ignore God and adore the heavens, and one for those who would look to man’s innate goodness (Adjuster) for an explanation of the existence of evil.

From Wikipedia:

…Theodicy, in its most common form, attempts to answer the question why a good God permits the manifestation of evil. Theodicy addresses the evidential problem of evil by attempting “to make the existence of an All-knowing, All-powerful and All-good or omnibenevolent God consistent with the existence of evil” or suffering in the world. Unlike a defence, which tries to demonstrate that God’s existence is logically possible in the light of evil, a theodicy provides a framework which claims to make God’s existence probable. The German mathematician and philosopher Gottfried Leibniz coined the term “theodicy” in 1710 in his work Théodicée, though various responses to the problem of evil had been previously proposed. The British philosopher John Hick traced the history of moral theodicy in his 1966 work, Evil and the God of Love, identifying three major traditions:

the Plotinian theodicy, named after Plotinus

the Augustinian theodicy, which Hick based on the writings of Augustine of Hippo

the Irenaean theodicy, which Hick developed, based on the thinking of St. Irenaeus

Other philosophers have suggested that theodicy is a modern discipline because the ancient pagan deities were often imperfect.

German philosopher Max Weber (1864-1920) saw theodicy as a social problem, based on the human need to explain puzzling aspects of the world. Sociologist Peter L. Berger (1929- ) argued that religion arose out of a need for social order, and an “implicit theodicy of all social order” developed to sustain it. Following the Holocaust, a number of Jewish theologians developed a new response to the problem of evil, sometimes called anti-theodicy, which maintains that God cannot be meaningfully justified. As an alternative to theodicy, a defence has been proposed by the American philosopher Alvin Plantinga (1932- ), which is limited to showing the logical possibility of God’s existence. Plantinga’s version of the free-will defence argued that the coexistence of God and evil is not logically impossible, and that free will further explains the existence of evil without threatening the existence of God.

Similar to a theodicy, a cosmodicy attempts to justify the fundamental goodness of the universe, and an anthropodicy attempts to justify the goodness of humanity.

Source/more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy

Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 18, 2016, 5:43 PM

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote:

When God is forced to execute his evil doing sons . . .

Rick, you know better. God doesn’t execute anyone and he does get to keep the personality and every good experience as part of the Supreme.

So, you are saying the Ancients of Days are going against God’s will when they execute a Lanonandek Son? That can’t be true. Imagine how you’d feel in such a situation. Does the creator of feelings not have feelings? Aren’t you positing an aloof unfeeling God, yet we are told the Adjusters experience torment. 3:1:5

Nothing is lost except nothing. I can’t imagine God getting upset about losing nothing. God keeps all that is good. And everyone in the universe is willing to suffer, to carry their brothers’ burdens, if necessary. Yes, we differ immensely on this one, like lightyears and lightyears apart. I know we both have suffered a lot, but I think my personal suffering has had a very good effect in the long run. I’m not sorry or bitter about any of it. Do I wish I didn’t have to suffer all of it? Yes. But when I look at it all very closely, I realize that a great deal of my suffering was due to the actions of others rather than my own. I’m happy to bear their burdens. We’re told that we can suffer less if we accept our lot when we’ve faithfully performed our duty.(48:6.36)In fact, willingness to remain steadfast in the midst of non-self inflicted suffering can increase your spiritual worth. (54:6.7) Which is why I’m happy about it. I’m not saying that the universe doesn’t prefer to diminish suffering, but suffering cannot be abolished entirely in the experiential worlds. It plays an important role and is therefore good for the whole, or the all. It’s all good.

Ya think

.

Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Mar 18, 2016, 5:59 PM

Rick Warren wrote: So, you are saying the Ancients of Days are going against God’s will when they execute a Lanonandek Son?

If there is nothing there, there is nothing to annihilate; all that is real is already extinct. You can’t execute or annihilate non-reality. Yes, the personality is denied identity, but it remains as part of the Supreme. All that is good remains. All that is not good is not real and therefore is already gone before the Ancients of Days ever make a decision. Truly, it’s all good.

54:3.3 And the Ancients of Days refuse to annihilate any being until all moral values and all spiritual realities are extinct, both in the evildoer and in all related supporters and possible sympathizers.

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