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What Is Goodness? Why Is Only God Good? Is It Really "All Good"?

106 posts · 6 participants · started Mar 9, 2016, 12:19 PM

AnonymousInactive
Mar 12, 2016, 10:28 PM

Mara wrote:

(Of course there is one other area not yet mentioned which is all the crappy mind-talk going on inside your head which you have not uttered, but it is still there running in repetitive loops by force of habit.)

I have found others who mention that they have to deal with either “voices” (conscious thought), or as noted above, “crappy mind-talk going on inside your head”, and at one time I also suffered or found this to be disturbing at times, but no longer need to deal with this, having learned how to still my mind. It was not that difficult to do but I have found that it is most beneficial especially when attempting to fall asleep. This does not mean that I cannot communicate with self but has made me more cognoscente of mindal communications through the superconscious. Although I have been able to do this for some time, I am surprised that so many suffer with this still. Doesn’t meditation help with stilling the mind?
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 13, 2016, 12:39 PM

Bonita wrote:

I’ve always thought of greatness as smallness, smallness of the self. The less of the self in anything the more great it is. I think this world is all mixed up and backward in regards to that. Most people think of greatness is bigness: big money, big ego, big mouth, big hair (oops, that slipped out). It’s really about a consciousness of smallness, true humility. I honestly don’t think you can really serve without it. Wasn’t the whole foot-washing thing about humility and smallness? If humility is part of greatness, it must be part of goodness as well. I know God is good, but I rarely think of him as humble. Yet, if you think about what he’s done in regards to sending pieces of himself to live in us and submit to our free will, holy cow! that’s really humble. I could give someone a piece of me, like a kidney or something, but not an actual piece of my identity, then let them have their way with it, which is what God does. We don’t have identity without him as part of us. That’s really good and great stuff! Another thing I was thinking of lately is the relativity of goodness on the human level. Like living truth and beauty, living goodness is relative. The word living has to do with experience, as opposed to true or divine goodness, which has to do with perfection on Paradisal levels. Even though we strive for true goodness, we can’t really own it, not just because it belongs to God, but because we are perfecting creatures, far from Paradisal perfection. I think we come closer and closer to true goodness as we transit through the psychic circles, as our personalities become more spiritually real, more perfected, or less imperfect. So what about the levels of the golden rule when it comes to goodness and greatness? I think there’s a little roadmap there revealing increasing levels of living goodness. The lowest level is purely self-centered, the highest level is actually living God’s will, a service of fatherly love, learned from the same Father who gave us himself in a most humble, good and great way. I’m beginning to think that these levels are also indicative of circle mastery. Probably first circlers are humble enough, the least self-centered, the most perfected, thus capable of serving others at the 6th level of the golden rule. And of course, they would be the greatest, the most good, among us in this relative frame of living experience. Well Rick, I’m just musing here. I haven’t polished these thoughts well enough to write anything worthwhile. I thought I’d jot them down while they’re still in my head, since the old brain is getting a little slippery these days. Can’t seem to hold onto thoughts like I used to. Whoosh! They’re gone in an instant, tucked away somewhere safe where I can never seem to find them, like my car keys.

Hmmm…seems like that’s some mighty fine thinking on goodness and greatness, Bonita. Gotta love your paradoxical idea of small being great. It rings so true.

I especially liked this:

…I know God is good, but I rarely think of him as humble. Yet, if you think about what he’s done in regards to sending pieces of himself to live in us and submit to our free will, holy cow! that’s really humble. I could give someone a piece of me, like a kidney or something, but not an actual piece of my identity, then let them have their way with it, which is what God does. We don’t have identity without him as part of us. That’s really good and great stuff!

And I like the idea of a roadmap to greatness. A Golden Road??

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 13, 2016, 12:46 PM

Bradly wrote:

Thought I’d add some additional text from Paper 28 to support such wonderful thinking on the relationship of goodness and greatness….. 28:6.20 (317.1) 6 and 7. The Secret of Greatness and the Soul of Goodness. The ascending pilgrims having awakened to the import of time, the way is prepared for the realization of the solemnity of trust and for the appreciation of the sanctity of service. While these are the moral elements of greatness, there are also secrets of greatness. When the spiritual tests of greatness are applied, the moral elements are not disregarded, but the quality of unselfishness revealed in disinterested labor for the welfare of one’s earthly fellows, particularly worthy beings in need and in distress, that is the real measure of planetary greatness. And the manifestation of greatness on a world like Urantia is the exhibition of self-control. The great man is not he who “takes a city” or “overthrows a nation,” but rather “he who subdues his own tongue.” 28:6.21 (317.2) Greatness is synonymous with divinity. God is supremely great and good. Greatness and goodness simply cannot be divorced. They are forever made one in God. This truth is literally and strikingly illustrated by the reflective interdependence of the Secret of Greatness and the Soul of Goodness, for neither can function without the other. In reflecting other qualities of divinity, the superuniverse seconaphim can and do act alone, but the reflective estimates of greatness and of goodness appear to be inseparable. Hence, on any world, in any universe, must these reflectors of greatness and of goodness work together, always showing a dual and mutually dependent report of every being upon whom they focalize. Greatness cannot be estimated without knowing the content of goodness, while goodness cannot be portrayed without exhibiting its inherent and divine greatness. Me here: As to our smallness despite our own self importance, it is interesting to consider that we may only grow the spiritual side of our dual nature by reducing our own self importance, the one leads to the other……I find the study of the Apostles so illustrative and illuminating of the human condition so swayed by the material side of our nature even while seeking out and growing our spiritual nature. The foot washing has always been one of the most inspiring and enlightening of all stories. 158:6.3 (1758.4) “No sooner does your faith grasp the identity of the Son of Man than your selfish desire for worldly preferment creeps back upon you, and you fall to discussing among yourselves as to who should be greatest in the kingdom of heaven, a kingdom which, as you persist in conceiving it, does not exist, nor ever shall. Have not I told you that he who would be greatest in the kingdom of my Father’s spiritual brotherhood must become little in his own eyes and thus become the server of his brethren? Spiritual greatness consists in an understanding love that is Godlike and not in an enjoyment of the exercise of material power for the exaltation of self. In what you attempted, in which you so completely failed, your purpose was not pure. Your motive was not divine. Your ideal was not spiritual. Your ambition was not altruistic. Your procedure was not based on love, and your goal of attainment was not the will of the Father in heaven. 48:4.15 (549.2) When we are tempted to magnify our self-importance, if we stop to contemplate the infinity of the greatness and grandeur of our Makers, our own self-glorification becomes sublimely ridiculous, even verging on the humorous. One of the functions of humor is to help all of us take ourselves less seriously. Humor is the divine antidote for exaltation of ego.

Thanks Bradly, for the perfect quotes for the topic. This phrase always sticks with me, maybe because it was italicized, and maybe because of the deft use of the word divorced:

Greatness and goodness simply cannot be divorced. ^28:6.21 ^(317.2)

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 13, 2016, 12:48 PM

Bonita wrote:

Here are two more quotes to ponder. There’s a law of spirit dominance (25:1.4), and a great law of conservation and dominance of goodness. Goodness always wins in the long run. Hooray! All we need is faith.

48:6.7 These seraphic evangels are dedicated to the proclamation of the gospel of eternal progression, the triumph of perfection attainment. On the mansion worlds they proclaim the great law of the conservation and dominance of goodness: No act of good is ever wholly lost; it may be long thwarted but never wholly annulled, and it is eternally potent in proportion to the divinity of its motivation. 140:8.8 Have faith — confidence in the eventual triumph of divine justice and eternal goodness.

Bradly wrote: . . . .it is interesting to consider that we may only grow the spiritual side of our dual nature by reducing our own self importance, the one leads to the other . . .

It is interesting, but we can’t reduce our own self-importance by will-power alone. Our self-importance diminishes proportionate to the importance we give to “other-than-self,” God (through prayer and worship). The more we identify with God, the less we identify with the self. The more we identify with God, the more service we render in the form of fruits of the spirit. It’s a true, beautiful and good thing.

Amen, Sister!

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 13, 2016, 12:56 PM

Mara wrote:

Rick Warren wrote: “…As you ascend the universe scale of creature development, you will find increasing goodness and diminishing evil in perfect accordance with your capacity for goodness-experience and truth-discernment….” (1458:3) 132:2.6

What exactly creates greater capacity “for goodness experience”?

Not spiritual self-examination. Not conscientious self-examination. Not religious introspection. “But Jesus said nothing which would proscribe self-analysis as a prevention of conceited egotism.” (140:8:27)

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140:8:26 Jesus knew men were different, and he so taught his apostles. He constantly exhorted them to refrain from trying to mold the disciples and believers according to some set pattern. He sought to allow each soul to develop in its own way, a perfecting and separate individual before God. In answer to one of Peter’s many questions, the Master said: “I want to set men free so that they can start out afresh as little children upon the new and better life.” Jesus always insisted that true goodness must be unconscious, in bestowing charity not allowing the left hand to know what the right hand does.

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170:3:9 The righteousness of any act must be measured by the motive; the highest forms of good are therefore unconscious. Jesus was never concerned with morals or ethics as such. He was wholly concerned with that inward and spiritual fellowship with God the Father which so certainly and directly manifests itself as outward and loving service for man. He taught that the religion of the kingdom is a genuine personal experience which no man can contain within himself; that the consciousness of being a member of the family of believers leads inevitably to the practice of the precepts of the family conduct, the service of one’s brothers and sisters in the effort to enhance and enlarge the brotherhood.

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No man can contain within him/herself the personal experience of knowing God as a Father and your neighbor as a brother or sister. You cannot stifle the urge to reach out to others with the joy and certainty you have in the goodness of God, the truth and the beauty of reality. But this means you have to have interactions with your neighbors and others. And therefore do you put yourself out there in real world places where the rubber meets the road, so to speak, where you enact to urge to reach out. Always will the Spirit be telling you, “This is the way.” Over time you get better at doing – enacting – The Way the Spirit shows you. And I am pretty sure that both you and I know immediately when we have not done right in our interpersonal enactions. (Of course there is one other area not yet mentioned which is all the crappy mind-talk going on inside your head which you have not uttered, but it is still there running in repetitive loops by force of habit.) Anyhow. Perfection-hunger is the lure. Conduct within the family is the platform for learning.

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Beautifully expressed Mara, and I am “pretty sure” too.

You mention family. Goodness/greatness runs deeper is some families, seems like. Surely that’s a function of familial love. But Adjuster and angelic influence can’t be ruled out either.

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Richard E Warren
MaraParticipant
Mar 13, 2016, 7:54 PM

Rick Warren wrote: You mention family.

Yes, in terms of the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man.

142:7:4 He next explained that the “kingdom idea” was not the best way to illustrate man’s relation to God; that he employed such figures of speech because the Jewish people were expecting the kingdom, and because John had preached in terms of the coming kingdom. Jesus said: “The people of another age will better understand the gospel of the kingdom when it is presented in terms expressive of the family relationship — when man understands religion as the teaching of the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man, sonship with God.” Then the Master discoursed at some length on the earthly family as an illustration of the heavenly family, restating the two fundamental laws of living: the first commandment of love for the father, the head of the family, and the second commandment of mutual love among the children, to love your brother as yourself. And then he explained that such a quality of brotherly affection would invariably manifest itself in unselfish and loving social service.

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He was a living demonstration of self-forgetfulness in all his days, as noted below.

196:0:9 The Master’s entire life was consistently conditioned by this living faith, this sublime religious experience. This spiritual attitude wholly dominated his thinking and feeling, his believing and praying, his teaching and preaching. This personal faith of a son in the certainty and security of the guidance and protection of the heavenly Father imparted to his unique life a profound endowment of spiritual reality. And yet, despite this very deep consciousness of close relationship with divinity, this Galilean, God’s Galilean, when addressed as Good Teacher, instantly replied, “Why do you call me good?” When we stand confronted by such splendid self-forgetfulness, we begin to understand how the Universal Father found it possible so fully to manifest himself to him and reveal himself through him to the mortals of the realms.

Surly self-forgetfulness will increase capacity for goodness, even as good overcomes evil.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 13, 2016, 8:30 PM

Mara wrote:

Rick Warren wrote: You mention family.

Yes, in terms of the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man.

142:7:4 He next explained that the “kingdom idea” was not the best way to illustrate man’s relation to God; that he employed such figures of speech because the Jewish people were expecting the kingdom, and because John had preached in terms of the coming kingdom. Jesus said: “The people of another age will better understand the gospel of the kingdom when it is presented in terms expressive of the family relationship — when man understands religion as the teaching of the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man, sonship with God.” Then the Master discoursed at some length on the earthly family as an illustration of the heavenly family, restating the two fundamental laws of living: the first commandment of love for the father, the head of the family, and the second commandment of mutual love among the children, to love your brother as yourself. And then he explained that such a quality of brotherly affection would invariably manifest itself in unselfish and loving social service.

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He was a living demonstration of self-forgetfulness in all his days, as noted below.

196:0:9 The Master’s entire life was consistently conditioned by this living faith, this sublime religious experience. This spiritual attitude wholly dominated his thinking and feeling, his believing and praying, his teaching and preaching. This personal faith of a son in the certainty and security of the guidance and protection of the heavenly Father imparted to his unique life a profound endowment of spiritual reality. And yet, despite this very deep consciousness of close relationship with divinity, this Galilean, God’s Galilean, when addressed as Good Teacher, instantly replied, “Why do you call me good?” When we stand confronted by such splendid self-forgetfulness, we begin to understand how the Universal Father found it possible so fully to manifest himself to him and reveal himself through him to the mortals of the realms.

Surely self-forgetfulness will increase capacity for goodness, even as good overcomes evil.

Yeah, even greatness. But it’s amazing how many ways self remembrance seeps in!

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Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Mar 13, 2016, 8:52 PM
You can’t really forget yourself by trying to forget yourself. The act of trying to forget yourself makes you think more about yourself . . . cat chasing it’s own tail. Can’t be done. No capacity will be increased by trying to forget yourself. All that does is run a circular rut in your psyche.

You forget yourself by filling your thoughts with other-than-self. Right? Prayer and worship works for that. Prayer reminds you that your self isn’t that important (smallness) and worship is awareness of other-than-self, also known as the presence of God.

143:7.7 Prayer is self-reminding—sublime thinking; worship is self-forgetting—superthinking. Worship is effortless attention, true and ideal soul rest, a form of restful spiritual exertion.
MaraParticipant
Mar 14, 2016, 4:24 PM

I found these interesting remarks on prayer and worship.

5:3:3 Worship is for its own sake; prayer embodies a self– or creature-interest element; that is the great difference between worship and prayer. There is absolutely no self-request or other element of personal interest in true worship; we simply worship God for what we comprehend him to be. Worship asks nothing and expects nothing for the worshiper. We do not worship the Father because of anything we may derive from such veneration; we render such devotion and engage in such worship as a natural and spontaneous reaction to the recognition of the Father’s matchless personality and because of his lovable nature and adorable attributes.

Infinite goodness – only God is good – is an attribute of God, a loving Father, and our loving Father, God, our heavenly parent, pours forth His love even to His erring children. God is love. Only a person can love and be loved in return.

1:7:3 The concept of truth might possibly be entertained apart from personality, the concept of beauty may exist without personality, but the concept of divine goodness is understandable only in relation to personality. Only a person can love and be loved. Even beauty and truth would be divorced from survival hope if they were not attributes of a personal God, a loving Father.

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“Jesus trusted God much as the child trusts a parent.” “Jesus‘ wholehearted faith in the fundamental goodness of the universe very much resembled the child’s trust in the security of its earthly surroundings. He depended on the heavenly Father as a child leans upon its earthly parent, and his fervent faith never for one moment doubted the certainty of the heavenly Father’s overcare. He was not disturbed seriously by fears, doubts, and skepticism. Unbelief did not inhibit the free and original expression of his life. He combined the stalwart and intelligent courage of a full-grown man with the sincere and trusting optimism of a believing child. His faith grew to such heights of trust that it was devoid of fear.” (196:0:11)

2:2:5 God’s primal perfection consists not in an assumed righteousness but rather in the inherent perfection of the goodness of his divine nature. He is final, complete, and perfect. There is no thing lacking in the beauty and perfection of his righteous character. And the whole scheme of living existences on the worlds of space is centered in the divine purpose of elevating all will creatures to the high destiny of the experience of sharing the Father’s Paradise perfection. God is neither self-centered nor self-contained; he never ceases to bestow himself upon all self-conscious creatures of the vast universe of universes.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 14, 2016, 4:36 PM

Bonita wrote:

…You forget yourself by filling your thoughts with other-than-self. Right?

Right. Good thoughts. But it takes much time and focused effort to retrain the mind to do this 24/7/366. That said, we might take heart in the self-evident fact that a mind not easily changed means that once retrained, it should be easier to maintain and expand capacity for gooder thinking

All this got me thinking about how goodness reflects on family. Seems like God-centered family is civilization’s ever growing repository of goodness (not unlike the Supreme Being, huh?!). I like what the authors say about the value of family; almost to suggest family is comparable to the cell of the human body. And when cells are good, so is health.

There is a deep vein of goodness on one side of my family, and considerable badness on the other. I was morally and spiritually confused for a long while, until discovering revelation in midlife. What a relief! And what an opportunity to try to make my family better. Families that live and teach goodness are such a pleasure to be around, they even attract kids from the lesser goodness-endowed families.

…As are the families of the race or nation, so is its society. If the families are good, the society is likewise good. The great cultural stability of the Jewish and of the Chinese peoples lies in the strength of their family groups.^(939.4) ^84:7.1

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 14, 2016, 4:43 PM

Mara wrote:

I found these interesting remarks on prayer and worship.

5:3:3 Worship is for its own sake; prayer embodies a self– or creature-interest element; that is the great difference between worship and prayer. There is absolutely no self-request or other element of personal interest in true worship; we simply worship God for what we comprehend him to be. Worship asks nothing and expects nothing for the worshiper. We do not worship the Father because of anything we may derive from such veneration; we render such devotion and engage in such worship as a natural and spontaneous reaction to the recognition of the Father’s matchless personality and because of his lovable nature and adorable attributes.

Infinite goodness – only God is good – is an attribute of God, a loving Father, and our loving Father, God, our heavenly parent, pours forth His love even to His erring children. God is love. Only a person can love and be loved in return.

1:7:3 The concept of truth might possibly be entertained apart from personality, the concept of beauty may exist without personality, but the concept of divine goodness is understandable only in relation to personality. Only a person can love and be loved. Even beauty and truth would be divorced from survival hope if they were not attributes of a personal God, a loving Father.

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“Jesus trusted God much as the child trusts a parent.” “Jesus‘ wholehearted faith in the fundamental goodness of the universe very much resembled the child’s trust in the security of its earthly surroundings. He depended on the heavenly Father as a child leans upon its earthly parent, and his fervent faith never for one moment doubted the certainty of the heavenly Father’s overcare. He was not disturbed seriously by fears, doubts, and skepticism. Unbelief did not inhibit the free and original expression of his life. He combined the stalwart and intelligent courage of a full-grown man with the sincere and trusting optimism of a believing child. His faith grew to such heights of trust that it was devoid of fear.” (196:0:11)

2:2:5 God’s primal perfection consists not in an assumed righteousness but rather in the inherent perfection of the goodness of his divine nature. He is final, complete, and perfect. There is no thing lacking in the beauty and perfection of his righteous character. And the whole scheme of living existences on the worlds of space is centered in the divine purpose of elevating all will creatures to the high destiny of the experience of sharing the Father’s Paradise perfection. God is neither self-centered nor self-contained; he never ceases to bestow himself upon all self-conscious creatures of the vast universe of universes.

Excellent complements and comments for this thread, thanks Mara. I marvel in attempting to think of Father’s “Infinite Goodness” and all it implies. God is good and goodness. How can a mere human contain that??

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Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Mar 14, 2016, 5:25 PM

Rick Warren wrote: Good thoughts. But it takes much time and focused effort to retrain the mind to do this 24/7/366.

They call it “pray without ceasing”. Can be done, and done easily. If I can do it, anyone can. Although, I admit that I don’t know what my mind is doing while I sleep. However, when I’m conscious, I’m praying, non-stop. I get the idea that people think prayer has to be words. Not so. Do you remember the first time you fell in love in high school? I do. I thought about that person all day and all night. Never stopped. It’s the same thing, but easier because the person you are in love with lives inside your head.

Since when do you have to train your mind to love? Love is the natural state of the soul. Think with the soul. And if you balk at that, think with the spirits of worship and wisdom. The spirit of wisdom will organize it all for you and shoot it right up the chain of command to the Holy Spirit, the supermind of the soul. Not hard at all. It’s almost automatic.
MaraParticipant
Mar 14, 2016, 9:35 PM
Jesus said do your good deeds in secret, and when you help the poor, don’t let the left hand know what the right hand does, or is it “don’t let the right know what the left hand does”. (140:6:11) The theme of doing, enacting, or rendering good deeds in secret was the theme in my prayer circle this morning and I want to share this with you.

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We learned a bit about a nineteenth century Baptist preacher in England, a fellow named Charles Spurgeon, who with the help of his wife raised chickens. According to the story, as presented to us this morning, the Spurgeons refused to give their eggs away, even to their relatives. As a result, some people thought they were selfish and greedy. “The Spurgeons accepted this criticism without defending themselves, and only after Mrs. Spurgeon died was the full story revealed. The Spurgeons never spent one penny of that egg money on themselves. Every penny that the Spurgeons made from the sale of their eggs went to support two elderly widows. He never mentioned it from the pulpit . . . .”

The gal who presented the Spurgeon story also provided this timely (at least to me!) poem by Edward Guest.

SERMONS WE SEE

I’d rather see a sermon than hear one any day;
I’d rather one should walk with me than merely tell the way.
The eye’s a better pupil and more willing than the ear,
Fine counsel is confusing, but example’s always clear;
And the best of all the preachers are the men who live their creeds,
For to see good put in action is what everybody needs.

I soon can learn to do it if you’ll let me see it done;
I can watch your hands in action, but your tongue too fast may run.
And the lecture you deliver may be very wise and true,
But I’d rather get my lessons by observing what you do;
For I might misunderstand you and the high advise you give,
But there’s no misunderstanding how you act and how you live.

When I see a deed of kindness, I am eager to be kind.
When a weaker brother stumbles and a strong man stays behind
Just to see if he can help him, then the wish grows strong in me
To become as big and thoughtful as I know that friend to be.
And all travelers can witness that the best of guides today
Is not the one who tells them, but the one who shows the way.

One good man teaches many, men believe what they behold;
One deed of kindness noticed is worth forty that are told.
Who stands with men of honor learns to hold his honor dear,
For right living speaks a language which to every one is clear.
Though an able speaker charms me with his eloquence, I say,
I’d rather see a sermon than to hear one, any day.
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 15, 2016, 3:39 PM

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote: Good thoughts. But it takes much time and focused effort to retrain the mind to do this 24/7/366.

They call it “pray without ceasing”. Can be done, and done easily. If I can do it, anyone can. Although, I admit that I don’t know what my mind is doing while I sleep. However, when I’m conscious, I’m praying, non-stop. I get the idea that people think prayer has to be words. Not so. Do you remember the first time you fell in love in high school? I do. I thought about that person all day and all night. Never stopped. It’s the same thing, but easier because the person you are in love with lives inside your head. Since when do you have to train your mind to love? Love is the natural state of the soul. Think with the soul. And if you balk at that, think with the spirits of worship and wisdom. The spirit of wisdom will organize it all for you and shoot it right up the chain of command to the Holy Spirit, the supermind of the soul. Not hard at all. It’s almost automatic.

Yeah, but I call that abiding in the Presence, which is in itself an experience of goodness, truth and beauty. Do you consider talking with God prayer? To me prayer is apart from casual conversation with my Indwelling Friend, it has reverential words and ideas, often a request to know what is the good and right thing to do. But even more often these days, a lead-in to worship.

,

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 15, 2016, 3:45 PM

Mara wrote:

Jesus said do your good deeds in secret, and when you help the poor, don’t let the left hand know what the right hand does, or is it “don’t let the right know what the left hand does”. (140:6:11) The theme of doing, enacting, or rendering good deeds in secret was the theme in my prayer circle this morning and I want to share this with you. . We learned a bit about a nineteenth century Baptist preacher in England, a fellow named Charles Spurgeon, who with the help of his wife raised chickens. According to the story, as presented to us this morning, the Spurgeons refused to give their eggs away, even to their relatives. As a result, some people thought they were selfish and greedy. “The Spurgeons accepted this criticism without defending themselves, and only after Mrs. Spurgeon died was the full story revealed. The Spurgeons never spent one penny of that egg money on themselves. Every penny that the Spurgeons made from the sale of their eggs went to support two elderly widows. He never mentioned it from the pulpit . . . .” The gal who presented the Spurgeon story also provided this timely (at least to me!) poem by Edward Guest.

SERMONS WE SEE

I’d rather see a sermon than hear one any day; I’d rather one should walk with me than merely tell the way. The eye’s a better pupil and more willing than the ear, Fine counsel is confusing, but example’s always clear; And the best of all the preachers are the men who live their creeds, For to see good put in action is what everybody needs.

I soon can learn to do it if you’ll let me see it done; I can watch your hands in action, but your tongue too fast may run. And the lecture you deliver may be very wise and true, But I’d rather get my lessons by observing what you do; For I might misunderstand you and the high advise you give, But there’s no misunderstanding how you act and how you live.

When I see a deed of kindness, I am eager to be kind. When a weaker brother stumbles and a strong man stays behind Just to see if he can help him, then the wish grows strong in me To become as big and thoughtful as I know that friend to be. And all travelers can witness that the best of guides today Is not the one who tells them, but the one who shows the way.

One good man teaches many, men believe what they behold; One deed of kindness noticed is worth forty that are told. Who stands with men of honor learns to hold his honor dear, For right living speaks a language which to every one is clear. Though an able speaker charms me with his eloquence, I say, I’d rather see a sermon than to hear one, any day.

That was a genuine joy, thank you Mara.

For to see good put in action is what everybody needs…

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Richard E Warren
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 15, 2016, 4:43 PM
Thinking more about Goodness, families, Uantia’s future, and the Supreme…

We have been informed Goodness and love transcend all levels. From Paradise/Havona out to the edge of time and space, even we ‘lowly’ humans have been included in the divine family. And we know Goodness and love are always contagious, God’s love actually propels the whole Universe the authors say. Love quickly infects all members of a good family. Eventual planetary integration of good families is the rock solid foundation for the eventual edifice of light and life. And the billion worlds of Havona ever remain an absolutely flawless model of light and life, cosmic family relations, and perfect Goodness.

When goodness spreads over a whole planet, an age of light and life can’t be far away. Imagine our world, if you can, where everyone is loved and respected as a family member, as a discreet being of divine dignity, and burden sharing is a living philosophy.

Of course students of the Papers know all this goodness, light and life is leading to something truly grand–The Supreme Being, who is the culminating God of time and space, the result of myriad divine values built on the concepts and expressions of Goodness, Truth and Beauty. The Supreme will be Goodness personified. What will s/he look like!!!?

Obviously there is ample goodness to live and spread as we help Father facilitate the emergence of the Supreme Being. Studying and following Truth, Beauty and Goodness in time and space always leads to greater revelations and expressions of divinity. Eventually they bring us to God’s will in eternity, along with worship, prayer and perfection hunger. It is good to know there is a plan, a purpose. We are taught the current and over-arching focus of Father’s good will and infinite energy in the Seven Superuniverses is the Supreme Being’s evolution and culmination, in which we are being offered a role. Yea!

The authors never vary from saying God’s Goodness will eventually win over everyone in time and space. Goodness will have to be studied by oncoming generations until it reaches full fruition on Urantia, a glorious blossoming of realized spiritual goodness. In the era of light and life people will want to help each other, and for no reward. People will actually do good for one another, even to those not of the same blood, same friend’s circle, same national or social group. And people will forgive each others’ mistakes and shortcomings without resorting to hate, anger, and violence because they understand what motivates others through sympathetic observations born of an ever-growing capacity for cosmic Goodness and love. It has already begun in some families. As go the families, so goes society.

Image source: https://urassoc.arko.nyc/about-uai/gallery/

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Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Mar 15, 2016, 5:10 PM

Rick Warren wrote: Do you consider talking with God prayer?

YUP! If it was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me.

123:3.6 During this year Joseph and Mary had trouble with Jesus about his prayers. He insisted on talking to his heavenly Father much as he would talk to Joseph, his earthly father. This departure from the more solemn and reverent modes of communication with Deity was a bit disconcerting to his parents, especially to his mother, but there was no persuading him to change; he would say his prayers just as he had been taught, after which he insisted on having “just a little talk with my Father in heaven.”

If doing God’s will is sharing the inner life with him, then all such inner conversation is a prayer, casual or otherwise. What makes you think that only formal “church-speak” or lofty language petitions for “whatever” impresses God in the least? Jumpin’ Jimminy, prayer is not just banging on the door to God’s heart asking for something in the most polite way you can come up with. It can’t be. Don’t you remember the long list of what Jesus considered prayer to be? It covers just about everything you can think of. Here’s the quote again:

p2088:5, 196:0.10 To him prayer was a sincere expression of spiritual attitude, a declaration of soul loyalty, a recital of personal devotion, an expression of thanksgiving, an avoidance of emotional tension, a prevention of conflict, an exaltation of intellection, an ennoblement of desire, a vindication of moral decision, an enrichment of thought, an invigoration of higher inclinations, a consecration of impulse, a clarification of viewpoint, a declaration of faith, a transcendental surrender of will, a sublime assertion of confidence, a revelation of courage, the proclamation of discovery, a confession of supreme devotion, the validation of consecration, a technique for the adjustment of difficulties, and the mighty mobilization of the combined soul powers to withstand all human tendencies toward selfishness, evil, and sin. He lived just such a life of prayerful consecration to the doing of his Father’s will and ended his life triumphantly with just such a prayer. The secret of his unparalleled religious life was this consciousness of the presence of God; and he attained it by intelligent prayer and sincere worship — unbroken communion with God — and not by leadings, voices, visions, or extraordinary religious practices.

Think about it, prayer is a declaration of faith. Shouldn’t you be declaring faith 24/7? You can’t do that with formal solemn petitions. You’d have to be a solitary monk living in a cave to do that. Prayer is not ceremonious. If you can only approach God when in your Sunday finest, then you’re treating God like a King rather than a Father. It’s silly to think that way. Not that you’re silly for doing that, but it’s entirely unnecessary. You can pray in the nude and use hip hop language as long as your motive is pure. God listens to your heart, not your words, and your heart should always be sharing with him. If not, you’re isolating parts of yourself and denying him a wholehearted love.

I really don’t understand why the word “prayer” is so toxic. Maybe it’s the political times we are living in, I don’t know. Prayer, if nothing else, is a 24/7 expression of gratitude. If you’re thankful for every little thing in life and want to tell God just how thankful you are, then you would be praying ceaselessly. It’s rather simple. It has to be simple if the best way to do it is as a little child, trusting and open all of the time. And if you’re not trusting and open all of the time, then you’re not connected. Ceaseless prayer is an unbroken connection to the Source; formal prayers are like dial-up connections, intermittent . . . temporary . . . not good.
AnonymousInactive
Mar 15, 2016, 10:39 PM

Bonita wrote:

Think about it, prayer is a declaration of faith. Shouldn’t you be declaring faith 24/7? You can’t do that with formal solemn petitions. You’d have to be a solitary monk living in a cave to do that. Prayer is not ceremonious. If you can only approach God when in your Sunday finest, then you’re treating God like a King rather than a Father. It’s silly to think that way. Not that you’re silly for doing that, but it’s entirely unnecessary. You can pray in the nude and use hip hop language as long as your motive is pure. God listens to your heart, not your words, and your heart should always be sharing with him. If not, you’re isolating parts of yourself and denying him a wholehearted love.

I really don’t understand why the word “prayer” is so toxic. Maybe it’s the political times we are living in, I don’t know. Prayer, if nothing else, is a 24/7 expression of gratitude. If you’re thankful for every little thing in life and want to tell God just how thankful you are, then you would be praying ceaselessly. It’s rather simple. It has to be simple if the best way to do it is as a little child, trusting and open all of the time. And if you’re not trusting and open all of the time, then you’re not connected. Ceaseless prayer is an unbroken connection to the Source; formal prayers are like dial-up connections, intermittent . . . temporary . . . not good.

Bonita, I know that we have had this conversation, regarding “prayer” before, and in the past my remarks as to the same material you present here, as I perceived them from you response’s got to the point where you avoided replying to any of my posts, directly but, as you continue to present this material, with some variations, I understand your premise but still find it logically impractical as you present it.

What I am attempting to say is that if one is fused with their adjuster in thought, or one with their soul, then unconscious thought would constitute “prayer” as you present it, or so I read into your statements? This would then allow for “Ceaseless prayer is an unbroken connection to the Source”. I too understand this expression but, have learned to move this to the superconscious level of thought where I am in constant contact with the “source” but communicate thought mindal thought. Not that I can open my consciousness to verbal expressions, which I have found it to be confusing at times, because they intermingle with whatever current external process I’m attempting to concentrate on and, to me, causes interference. This is why I have chosen to turn off this process, even when it becomes overbearing. However, assuming that we have a similar understanding, it has nothing to do with the term “prayer” if one associates this with “communication” with the source. This is to me the same as the perceived difference to the understanding between “worship” and “prayer”, as I understand it from the UB. Therefore, as your say that you “don’t understand why the word “prayer” is so toxic”, is as I believe your perception to be, different definitions for that word as it applies to every individual?
Richard E WarrenParticipant
Mar 16, 2016, 12:18 PM
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One other aspect of Goodness, one that must be examined in a comprehensive study of Goodness, is its opposite: evil. Humans haven’t given it much thought, but to be realized goodness must be contrasted with evil out here in time and space. The authors say this at least 8 different ways (3 of those are in Jesus’ teachings), from Paper 3 to Paper 160:

…Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast…. (51:12) 3:5.13

…The inhabitants of the Havona worlds do not require the potential of relative value levels as a choice stimulus; such perfect beings are able to identify and choose the good in the absence of all contrastive and thought-compelling moral situations…. (52.2) 3:5.16

…The infinite goodness of the Father is beyond the comprehension of the finite mind of time; hence must there always be afforded a contrast with comparative evil (not sin) for the effective exhibition of all phases of relative goodness…. (58.4) 4:3.6

…Perfection of divine goodness can be discerned by mortal imperfection of insight only because it stands in contrastive association with relative imperfection in the relationships of time and matter in the motions of space…. (58.4) 4:3.6

…Man is slow to perceive that contrastive perfection and imperfection produce potential evil; that conflicting truth and falsehood create confusing error…. (613:1) 54:0.1

…Goodness, like truth, is always relative and unfailingly evil-contrasted. It is the perception of these qualities of goodness and truth that enables the evolving souls of men to make those personal decisions of choice which are essential to eternal survival…. (1457:6) 132:2.3

…Goodness is found in the recognition of the positive truth-values of the spiritual level, which must, in human experience, be contrasted with the negative counterpart–the shadows of potential evil…. (1458.4) 132:2.7

…In all such spirit personalities, goodness is no longer partial, contrastive, and comparative; it has become divinely complete and spiritually replete; it approaches the purity and perfection of the Supreme…. (1458:6) 132:2.9

Remember reading there are celestials whose job it is to study the effects of evil? And there is this, from a Mighty Messenger, a former human, writing about the Lucifer rebellion–evil on a cosmic scale:

…As you ascend in the survival experience, you will broaden your universe concepts and extend your horizon of meanings and values; and thus will you be able the better to understand why such beings as Lucifer and Satan are permitted to continue in rebellion. You will also better comprehend how ultimate (if not immediate) good can be derived from time-limited evil…. ^(620.2) ^54:6.10

Many times the Master suggested overcoming evil with good. Evil, not being an enduring reality it is vulnerable to eternal goodness. Evil can actually be ‘overcome’ with goodness:

“…In your lives overthrow error and overcome evil by the love of the living truth. In all your relations with men do good for evil….” (1443:3) 131:1.7

…Fatherly love delights in returning good for evil–doing good in retaliation for injustice…. (1575:9) 140:5.24

…And Jesus answered: “You shall return good for evil. My messengers must not strive with men, but be gentle toward all. Measure for measure shall not be your rule….” (1577:3) 140:6.9

“…I say to you: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who despitefully use you. And whatsoever you believe that I would do to men, do you also to them….” (1571:2) 140:3.15

“…Why not assert your mastery of evil by virtue of the power of goodness and thus become the master of all relations between the two of you? I predict that the good in you could overcome the evil in him if you gave it a fair and living chance….” (1430:2) 130:2.4

“…There is mighty power in the expulsive energy of a new and sincere spiritual affection. And again I say to you, be not overcome by evil but rather overcome evil with good….” (1738:4) 156:5.5

…Jesus did not advocate the practice of negative submission to the indignities of those who might purposely seek to impose upon the practitioners of nonresistance to evil, but rather that his followers should be wise and alert in the quick and positive reaction of good to evil to the end that they might effectively overcome evil with good…. (1770:2) 159:5.10

From Buddhism: “…Do not to others those things you would not wish done to you. Pay good for evil; overcome evil with the good….” (1447:3) 131:3.6

From a Mighty Messenger: …The Melchizedeks now teach that the good resulting from the Satania rebellion is more than a thousand times the sum of all the evil…. (619:3) 54:6.6

From the Midwayers: …Jesus brought a new method of living to Urantia. He taught us not to resist evil but to find through him a goodness which effectually destroys evil…. (2018:1) 188:5.2

…Pentecost, with its spiritual endowment, was designed forever to loose the religion of the Master from all dependence upon physical force; the teachers of this new religion are now equipped with spiritual weapons. They are to go out to conquer the world with unfailing forgiveness, matchless good will, and abounding love. They are equipped to overcome evil with good, to vanquish hate by love, to destroy fear with a courageous and living faith in truth…. (2064:3) 194:3.11

…Urantia has passed through the ravages of great and destructive wars in its history. All participants in these terrible struggles met with defeat. There was but one victor; there was only one who came out of these embittered struggles with an enhanced reputation–that was Jesus of Nazareth and his gospel of overcoming evil with good…. (2064:4) 194:3.12

Evil will pass away, but NOTHING of spiritual goodness is ever wasted:

…On the mansion worlds they proclaim the great law of the conservation and dominance of goodness: No act of good is ever wholly lost; it may be long thwarted but never wholly annulled, and it is eternally potent in proportion to the divinity of its motivation…. (552:5) 48:6.7

…No worth-while experience ever happens in vain; no true meaning or real value ever perishes…. (1200:1) 109:6.1

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Richard E Warren
BonitaParticipant
Mar 16, 2016, 3:11 PM

Rick Warren wrote: . . .but to be realized goodness must be contrasted with evil out here in time and space.

I agree that the contrast is inevitable, but I like to think of it as the contrast between imperfection and perfection; incompletion and completion; immaturity and maturity; error and truth; not God’s way and God’s way. The word evil has so much baggage attached to it. It always makes me think of nasty villains, ogres, monsters and devils. We’re told that evil is really small black patches on a huge background of white goodness. It seems to me that it’s not so much that evil is necessary, but rather the potential for it is. Potential gives us the opportunity to make choices, and choices are essential for growth. Whenever we are faced with the potential for evil and we opt against it, aren’t we really choosing God’s way of goodness?

130:1.6 Your Father in heaven, by endowing you with the power to choose between truth and error, created the potential negative of the positive way of light and life; but such errors of evil are really nonexistent until such a time as an intelligent creature wills their existence by mischoosing the way of life.

Since goodness, like truth and beauty, is relative, then evil must be relative too. If it is relative, then as we move through the psychic circles of personality realization, the potential for evil must change along with us. What was once thought to be “okay” might now have new light on it and appear more imperfect than we originally thought. I think that’s one of the reasons why we go round and round, repeating our decisions over and over again, because there’s a chance that we see more clearly each time and choose the more perfect over the less perfect. Or rather, choose the less imperfect over the more imperfect as a function of growth of insight.

130:4.11 Evil is, therefore, also a measure of imperfection in universe interpretation. The possibility of making mistakes is inherent in the acquisition of wisdom, the scheme of progressing from the partial and temporal to the complete and eternal, from the relative and imperfect to the final and perfected. Error is the shadow of relative incompleteness which must of necessity fall across man’s ascending universe path to Paradise perfection. Error (evil) is not an actual universe quality; it is simply the observation of a relativity in the relatedness of the imperfection of the incomplete finite to the ascending levels of the Supreme and Ultimate.

I think perfect and imperfect (complete and incomplete; good and evil; truth and error) are interrelated and can’t really be separated in experiential reality, much like the parable of the wheat and the tares. In my backyard garden the tares, or weeds, eventually crowd out the plants unless I diligently kill them off. But in God’s universe, the wheat crowds out the tares every time. I really don’t think we have to work too hard to weed our spiritual gardens. I think the real work of life is to keep the wheat growing. That’s a more positive way of living.

130:1.6 This is why our Father in heaven permits the good and the evil to go along together until the end of life, just as nature allows the wheat and the tares to grow side by side until the harvest.

I do that through living prayer, the non-selfish type of prayer that always puts God (other-than-self) first. Some folks prefer other things I suppose, although I can’t understand why. If God is first and foremost in your mind at all times, the presence of evil doesn’t really matter much. I know some folks will go crazy with that last statement, but it’s true. If God fills your head and heart, he fills your life. If you’re full to the brim with God, there’s no room for much else. Then, evil merely means “not yet fully perfected, but on the Way”.

2:6.8 Unreality, even incompleteness of creature nature, cannot exist forever in a progressively real and increasingly spiritual universe.

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