314 posts · 12 participants · started Feb 5, 2015, 9:48 PM
Now let me ask you a question Bonita. It should be presumed that someone who’s studied the Urantia Book for as long a time as you have will have made the face to face contact with the indwelling divine presence by now. I should add that this contact might not be a part of our consciousness sometimes, since it occurrs in the realm of our self-forgetting super-consciousness.
Won’t you share with us some of your experiences?
Sure Enno, after you answer my questions about the alter ego and whether or not TUB is recommending a falsehood.
While I’m waiting for those answers, let me ask another. When you say that most people (who are inherently corrupted) reject the truth in TUB because they see “no you can’t” when it really says “yes you can”, what exactly are the things that they are seeing that says “no you can’t” and why does that matter?
There are certainly many, many places in TUB where we’re told quite plainly that we cannot do something, or “no you can’t”. For instance we, as material creatures, absolutely cannot behold the spirit God on Paradise and stay alive. We are also told that we cannot find God by searching, only by submitting to his guidance like a child (I’m guessing one that is not inherently corrupted.) They also tell us we cannot know a person as the result of a single contact and that we cannot love another person by a sheer act of will. We cannot understand the beauty, grandeur or communication techniques of Havona until we get there; we cannot exhibit mercy in and of itself without going through many preliminary steps; we cannot comprehend eternity, infinity or the I AM; we cannot pray to a chemical formula or a mathematical equation, worship a hypothesis, confide in a postulate, commune with a process, serve an abstraction or have loving fellowship with a law; we cannot lead unwilling souls to salvation or compel them to love the truth; we cannot legislate morality or imprison truth; we cannot run away from reality or escape the problems of this world; we cannot buy salvation or earn righteousness; we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven without being born of the spirit; we cannot serve God and mammon; we cannot put spiritual joy under a microscope, weigh love in a balance, measure moral values, or estimate the quality of spiritual worship. So there are tons of things we cannot do, plenty of “no you can’t” in TUB. Why is “no you can’t” so important to you?
Why is “no you can’t” so important to you?
Because I’ve been told it my entire life.
Hell, I was even named after it – N.O.
Enno
Good point Gene. I guess that’s why they call some of the prayers parables. I could never understand that either. I guess anything that serves as an illustration of a noble idea can be a parable. So you’re saying that foot washing is a symbol for doing God’s will? Not sure if I understood you correctly. Are you also saying that the parable of the talents (the hole digger parable) is about doing God’s will too?
not quite
just for the footwashing: there was much to the entire scenario but what I got from the conclusion was that service is what we all do from the entry level kingdom person to the master himself and beyond. Service to fellow beings, doing Gods will. With that in mind, who is greater-the servent or the master.
maybe I should copy and paste the paper.
So . . . is the alter ego technique the best approach to recognizing the presence of God within, as TUB tells us or not?
maybe I should copy and paste the paper.
Nah . . . don’t do it! Personally, I think it’s a waste of time and cyberspace. It would be easier to understand if you copied only the parts you’re interpreting. But regardless, in the end don’t all the parables come down to doing God’s will? Aren’t they all different ways of saying the same thing? Different ways to describe living in the kingdom and the perils of not living in the kingdom? I mean, when you drill all the way down?
So . . . is the alter ego technique the best approach to recognizing the presence of God within, as TUB tells us or not?
As you know Bonita, everything the Urantia Book says is true and helps to understand the approach of how to achieve contact with God.
As you know Bonita, everything the Urantia Book says is true and helps to understand the approach of how to achieve contact with God.
Finally! Thank you.
maybe I should copy and paste the paper.
Nah . . . don’t do it! Personally, I think it’s a waste of time and cyberspace. It would be easier to understand if you copied only the parts you’re interpreting. But regardless, in the end don’t all the parables come down to doing God’s will? Aren’t they all different ways of saying the same thing? Different ways to describe living in the kingdom and the perils of not living in the kingdom? I mean, when you drill all the way down?
yes, all much the same in regard to doing gods will
this one took my attention because of the way it was first acted out, demonstrated by the master and after he dramatically got their attention he gave the verbal somewhat lengthy explaination.
So . . . is the alter ego technique the best approach to recognizing the presence of God within, as TUB tells us or not?
No, because what was presented there, was presented as likened too, not actual. In that entire section it was presented as primitive fictional example, not factual, but what ethical praying, could be likened too. Read it again, as one complete section. Then read the section that follows, “4 Ethical Praying”, was the main topic it was pointing to.
this one took my attention because of the way it was first acted out, demonstrated by the master and after he dramatically got their attention he gave the verbal somewhat lengthy explaination.
I agree that foot washing captivates almost everyone . . . gets them right in the gut. The greatest being the least among us is another way of saying that we generally have things all backwards and upside down . . . in regards to priorities that is. I like the symbolism too. Sandaled feet walking through the desert must have always been ugly and filthy. Jews had such strict cleansing and washing rituals. They washed their hands, did ablutions and ceremonial baths for every little thing, but foot washing was something done by servants. It must have been considered a pretty lowly thing to get down on your knees and scrub filth off cracked and dried up calloused feet. I like Jesus more for not thinking it was a disgusting job. He did it with such dignity and love. It’s kinda what I was saying before that even doing disgusting lowly jobs, like cleaning the toilet, can be a true, beautiful and good thing when done with the right attitude . . . bringing love to life.
Thanks Gene….the washing of the feet was a living parable – personal and universe wide theater!!! Pride vs. humility. The apostles never did seem to understand several of the most important teachings despite the persistence of the Master to attempt to communicate that the kingdom is a spiritual kingdom, there are no favorites in the kingdom, Jesus was going to leave them, and loving service to others and their equal inheritance in the kingdom should drive our choices. So many parables taught these same lessons – one being the hired laborers and another the honored guest. One of my favorites is the bridge incident where Jesus tried, again, to give illumination to the reality that the material world is temporal but the spirit is eternal – different kingdoms with different priorities and ways of being and choosing:
156:2.1 (1735.5) In entering Sidon, Jesus and his associates passed over a bridge, the first one many of them had ever seen. As they walked over this bridge, Jesus, among other things, said: “This world is only a bridge; you may pass over it, but you should not think to build a dwelling place upon it.”
Me here: I find it interesting that human nature seems to grip self importance so tightly and often leads to self elevation over others based on what we have or what we do or what others do not have or do not do – always comparing ourselves to others where all others are given a far more critical perspective than we have for ourselves. The beam in the eye thing. The apostles quibbling over seating arrangements and who is greatest and most favored, etc. It seems some tadpoles think themselves whales or frogs when there is so little difference I think in true spiritization and progress in the circles when one considers the length of the journey from here to Paradise. Tadpole Pride!! We’re a funny bunch of monkeys! …..errrrr, tadpoles I mean………
While many parables are nature oriented (sheep, wheat, tares, soil, seed, etc.), most were not but they did incorporate every-day situations and characters, sometimes in very humorous ways – as a farm boy, the lesson on mathematics cracked me up – if one man can shear a sheep in ten minutes, then ten men should be able to shear a sheep in one minute – hahahahha! What a picture!
Back to the moneylender which, for me, ties into the 99 and the one – the true shepherd will leave the 99 to find the one who is lost even though the 99 don’t think the one is worthy. And then there is the prodigal son whose elder brother sees unfairness in his father’s open arms to the one lost son. Who of us is more deserving of love and forgiveness than any other? Those who think thusly are truly even further away from truth and need even more tolerance, patience, mercy, and forgiveness….or so I think. Who is really closer to the kingdom and has less need for forgiveness here – Simon or the grateful woman? And who “loved” the most? And if love is the measure and means of progress in the spirit and entry to the kingdom, then who is truly in the greatest need? Simon of course.
Then said Jesus: “A certain wealthy moneylender had two debtors. The one owed him five hundred denarii and the other fifty. Now, when neither of them had wherewith to pay, he forgave them both. Which of them do you think, Simon, would love him most?” Simon answered, “He, I suppose, whom he forgave the most.” And Jesus said, “You have rightly judged,” and pointing to the woman, he continued: “Simon, take a good look at this woman. I entered your house as an invited guest, yet you gave me no water for my feet. This grateful woman has washed my feet with tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave me no kiss of friendly greeting, but this woman, ever since she came in, has not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil you neglected to anoint, but she has anointed my feet with precious lotions. And what is the meaning of all this? Simply that her many sins have been forgiven, and this has led her to love much. But those who have received but little forgiveness sometimes love but little.” And turning around toward the woman, he took her by the hand and, lifting her up, said: “You have indeed repented of your sins, and they are forgiven. Be not discouraged by the thoughtless and unkind attitude of your fellows; go on in the joy and liberty of the kingdom of heaven.”
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Bradley said:
– “personal and universe wide theater”
this got me curious too:
so many of the narratives in the Jesus papers mention “other worlds observing and or benefiting”
do you think that Jesus at any time revealed the existence of other worlds to his apostles or were all such references commentary for the sake of the readers of the 5th revelation? Sometimes it seemed to me he did.
An interesting question Gene. How many nights did the Master and the Apostles lie on the ground and look up at the wonders of creation? Consider the lengthy talks with Ganid on reality in some detail. And we know that Machiventa shared far more detailed information with some than with others.
As to the Apostles, I don’t recall the details of an expanded personal teaching on the nature of reality, but I do know that each was given teachings that were personalized to their own capacity of understanding. Remember these are fairly primitive people and times and Jesus had so many expectations placed upon him by the masses and his inner circle that dispelling false expectations was pretty difficult, especially at the same time as introducing his gospel which contained significant contradictions to cherished beliefs.
He talked about the mansions to some degree though. But the story of Jesus was and remains an observed and recorded life among mortals and as a mortal and was/is a thrilling tale that inspires a universe! One day we’ll all get to know the details of this and all other stories of valor and loyalty on our world over the past million years.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Another parable anyone?
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
This reminds me of the parable prayers. TUB gives us seven variants of the Lord’s Prayer (144:5), some used by other worlds. Why do you suppose they bothered doing that?
Perhaps to show the common elements and attitude throughout time and space in proper and functional prayer?
144:3.16 (1620.14) Jesus gave the apostles the prayer in collective form as they had prayed it in the Nazareth home. He never taught a formal personal prayer, only group, family, or social petitions. And he never volunteered to do that.
144:3.17 (1620.15) Jesus taught that effective prayer must be:
144:3.18 (1620.16) 1. Unselfish — not alone for oneself.
144:3.19 (1620.17) 2. Believing — according to faith.
144:3.20 (1620.18) 3. Sincere — honest of heart.
144:3.21 (1620.19) 4. Intelligent — according to light.
144:3.22 (1620.20) 5. Trustful — in submission to the Father’s all-wise will.
144:5.1 (1621.11) From time to time, during the remainder of Jesus’ sojourn on earth, he brought to the notice of the apostles several additional forms of prayer, but he did this only in illustration of other matters, and he enjoined that these “parable prayers” should not be taught to the multitudes. Many of them were from other inhabited planets, but this fact Jesus did not reveal to the twelve…
(Prayers printed and listed between these two quotes.)
144:5.108 (1624.11) Though the apostles were not at liberty to present these prayer lessons in their public teachings, they profited much from all of these revelations in their personal religious experiences. Jesus utilized these and other prayer models as illustrations in connection with the intimate instruction of the twelve, and specific permission has been granted for transcribing these seven specimen prayers into this record.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Why do you suppose they bothered doing that?
To get our heads out of the sand. 
143:7.4 Prayer is designed to make man less thinking but more realizing; it is not designed to increase knowledge but rather to expand insight.
James Zebedee had asked, “Master, how shall we learn to see alike and thereby enjoy more harmony among ourselves?” When Jesus heard this question, he was stirred within his spirit, so much so that he replied: “James, James, when did I teach you that you should all see alike? I have come into the world to proclaim spiritual liberty to the end that mortals may be empowered to live individual lives of originality and freedom before God. I do not desire that social harmony and fraternal peace shall be purchased by the sacrifice of free personality and spiritual originality. What I require of you, my apostles, is spirit unity — and that you can experience in the joy of your united dedication to the wholehearted doing of the will of my Father in heaven. You do not have to see alike or feel alike or even think alike in order spiritually to be alike. Spiritual unity is derived from the consciousness that each of you is indwelt, and increasingly dominated, by the spirit gift of the heavenly Father. Your apostolic harmony must grow out of the fact that the spirit hope of each of you is identical in origin, nature, and destiny.
For some reason I suddenly stopped getting email notification of posts . . . sigh . . . didn’t know anyone responded . . . another sigh!
Anyway, Jesus said that the parable prayers are not for the multitudes. I wonder why. They seem pretty innocuous to me. Maybe they might have confused a few souls, I’m not sure. The midwayers even had to get special permission to reveal them to us. Odd. Jesus also never told the apostles that some of the prayers were from other planets. I keep reading them and I can’t come up for good reasons for it all. Here’s the first one:
144:5.2-10
Our Father in whom consist the universe realms,
Uplifted be your name and all-glorious your character.
Your presence encompasses us, and your glory is manifested
Imperfectly through us as it is in perfection shown on high.
Give us this day the vivifying forces of light,
And let us not stray into the evil bypaths of our imagination,
For yours is the glorious indwelling, the everlasting power,
And to us, the eternal gift of the infinite love of your Son.
Even so, and everlastingly true.
Is there anything radical there? Maybe “vivifying forces of light”? encompassing presence? the gift of God’s Son? Too much for the first century mind? I kinda doubt it, but perhaps.
Jesus used them as illustrations of *other matters*.
144:5.1 From time to time, during the remainder of Jesus’ sojourn on earth, he brought to the notice of the apostles several additional forms of prayer, but he did this only in illustration of other matters, and he enjoined that these “parable prayers” should not be taught to the multitudes.
