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Has the Lucifer rebellion been adjudicated?

114 posts · 10 participants · started Jun 11, 2016, 5:10 PM

  1. . . . but I’m wondering if the presence of potential evil is necessary at the seventh jubilee of eternity.  I would think not. . . .

    I think potential evil is limited to the superuniverse level. We have the time lag of mercy and the time lag of justice in these seven superuniverses. I don’t know if any of them have reached the final stage of light and life.  God the Supreme is actualizing.  I think potential evil remains a contrasting choice of beings in time and space until the Supreme is fully existent.  In Havona evil (error) does not exist, because Havona natives and pilgrims do not transgress the will of Deity.

    14:2:9  Havona is a spiritually perfect and physically stable universe. The control and balanced stability of the central universe appear to be perfect. Everything physical or spiritual is perfectly predictable, but mind phenomena and personality volition are not. We do infer that sin can be reckoned as impossible of occurrence, but we do this on the ground that the native freewill creatures of Havona have never been guilty of transgressing the will of Deity. Through all eternity these supernal beings have been consistently loyal to the Eternals of Days. Neither has sin appeared in any creature who has entered Havona as a pilgrim. There has never been an instance of misconduct by any creature of any group of personalities ever created in, or admitted to, the central Havona universe. So perfect and so divine are the methods and means of selection in the universes of time that never in the records of Havona has an error occurred; no mistakes have ever been made; no ascendant soul has ever been prematurely admitted to the central universe.
    The seventh jubilee way, way beyond the jubilee marking the achievement to advance to Havona.
    30:4:27  The journey from the superuniverse headquarters to the Havona receiving spheres is always made alone. From now on no more class or group instruction will be administered. You are through with the technical and administrative training of the evolutionary worlds of time and space. Now begins your personal education, your individual spiritual training. From first to last, throughout all Havona, the instruction is personal and threefold in nature: intellectual, spiritual, and experiential.
  2. Mara wrote: I think potential evil remains a contrasting choice of beings in time and space until the Supreme is fully existent.

    That may be true, but the quote I offered says evil (error) is an observation of the relativity of relatedness all the way past the Supreme to the Ultimate.

    130:4.11 Error (evil) is not an actual universe quality; it is simply the observation of a relativity in the relatedness of the imperfection of the incomplete finite to the ascending levels of the Supreme and Ultimate.

    Mara wrote: In Havona evil (error) does not exist, because Havona natives and pilgrims do not transgress the will of Deity.

    But Havona is not part of experiential reality.  The Supreme and the Ultimate are experiential which means that they participate in the relativity of relatedness which is where evil (error) is observed according to the above quote.

    The seventh jubilee way, way beyond the jubilee marking the achievement to advance to Havona.

    Right, the first seven jubilees get us to the status of finaliters.  After that, we start a new set of seven jubilees, the jubilees of eternity. And I’m guessing that it is at the end of this second set of jubilees that the ability to entertain error will be lost.  It seems to me that the seventh jubilee of the second set of jubilees will be the final spirit levels described in the next quote.

    p1458:3 132:2.6 As you ascend the universe scale of creature development, you will find increasing goodness and diminishing evil in perfect accordance with your capacity for goodness-experience and truth-discernment. The ability to entertain error or experience evil will not be fully lost until the ascending human soul achieves final spirit levels. 

    The quote says “entertain” error.  It doesn’t say “commit” error.  Entertain error means to think about it as a potential reality when contemplating a choice.   Error would have to be redefined as the least best way to do something on the level of experiential reality.  It wouldn’t necessarily be against God’s will though.  As we progress in experience and wisdom, even after becoming finaliters, we will need to make choices.  Choices between what?  At that point we will always be doing God’s will, so there must be good, better and best ways of doing God’s will according to the experience we’re in.  Even after achieving the Supreme, there is another level of experience to evolve.  Experience always requires choices or there would be no need for free will.

    That’s just my guess on how it will go though.  I can’t imagine eternity without choices and one wonders what will be involved in those choices. How much leeway for choice is available to someone who always does God’s will?  How will one’s mind on that level process options?  I guess we won’t really know until we get there.

  3. The Supreme and the Ultimate are experiential which means that they participate in the relativity of relatedness which is where evil (error) is observed according to the above quote.

    I certainly don’t want to blunder in oversimplifications about what the book says.  I could be wrong, but I don’t think the Supreme and Ultimate “participate” in something that is not an actual universe quality – evil (error).   Surely they observe the relativity of relatedness owing to the incompleteness and imperfections of the finite universes in this universe age.

    132:2:10  The possibility of evil is necessary to moral choosing, but not the actuality thereof. A shadow is only relatively real. Actual evil is not necessary as a personal experience. Potential evil acts equally well as a decision stimulus in the realms of moral progress on the lower levels of spiritual development. Evil becomes a reality of personal experience only when a moral mind makes evil its choice.
    On a personal level, decisions to reject sophistries and to choose that which is of the highest value add to the growth of the Supreme.   Decisions, decisions, decisions. I think the Supreme Being harvests the wheat, not the tares (130:1:6) in  maximizing  and consummating  finite reality into a meaningful whole.
    118:9:9  God the Supreme is the personalization of all universe experience, the focalization of all finite evolution, the maximation of all creature reality, the consummation of cosmic wisdom, the embodiment of the harmonious beauties of the galaxies of time, the truth of cosmic mind meanings, and the goodness of supreme spirit values. And God the Supreme will, in the eternal future, synthesize these manifold finite diversities into one experientially meaningful whole, even as they are now existentially united on absolute levels in the Paradise Trinity.
    117:3:1  The cosmic reality variously designated as the Supreme Being, God the Supreme, and the Almighty Supreme, is the complex and universal synthesis of the emerging phases of all finite realities. The far-flung diversification of eternal energy, divine spirit, and universal mind attains finite culmination in the evolution of the Supreme, who is the sum total of all finite growth, self-realized on deity levels of finite maximum completion.
    I think evil (error) disappear from the lexicon in the remote future.  This is pure conjecture on my part. I took a gigantic leap in my mind to the remotest of the remote future to a time of the perfection and completeness of the grand universe, when, according to a Mighty Messenger, “the possibilities for disharmony, maladjustment, and misadaptation will be eventually exhausted in the superuniverses.”
    117:7:13  The present goal of the superuniverses is to become, as they are and within their potentials, perfect, even as is Havona. This perfection pertains to physical and spiritual attainment, even to administrative, governmental, and fraternal development. It is believed that, in the ages to come, the possibilities for disharmony, maladjustment, and misadaptation will be eventually exhausted in the superuniverses. The energy circuits will be in perfect balance and in complete subjugation to mind, while spirit, in the presence of personality, will have achieved the dominance of mind.
    Maybe even the word “choice” will disappear from the lexicon in those remote times.  Maybe in its place will be the word creativity, or true liberty – manifestations of the will of God, as lived by the beings of the future.
  4. Although I am willing to be called out for my opinions as “inappropriate” to someone, I find it slightly ridiculous – make that sublimely ridiculous – to report a post that includes nothing but posted UB text quotes as containing “inappropriate content”!!!

    Hilarious…..hope the mods can remove that one eventually….any who think the UB contains inappropriate content has no business being here.  You can leave the complaint on my personal posts as you wish!

    I agree Sister Bonita….it’s a quandary.  What is the appropriate response to darkness, insanity, confusion, and falsehood?  And then, what is the better response?  And the best response?  These are worthy challenges for all students to consider in all forums and study groups.

    Best wishes to all!

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  5. Mara wrote: I certainly don’t want to blunder in oversimplifications about what the book says.  I could be wrong, but I don’t think the Supreme and Ultimate “participate” in something that is not an actual universe quality – evil (error).

    That’s not what I said.  I’m pretty sure I said they participate in the relativity of relatedness, which is another way to say “experience”.  But I do understand what you’re getting at.

    I can’t imagine free choice will ever go away.  God himself is a God of infinite volition, and we are made in his image.  I doubt he will ever take it away.  I think it is a permanent feature of personality.  If there’s no free will, there’s no personality. That’s the way I see it.

    9:0.2 The Father is infinite in love and volition, in spiritual thought and purpose; he is the universal upholder. The Son is infinite in wisdom and truth, in spiritual expression and interpretation; he is the universal revealer.

    10:3.6 We observe that the Father has divested himself of all direct manifestations of absoluteness except absolute fatherhood and absolute volition. We do not know whether volition is an inalienable attribute of the Father; we can only observe that he did not divest himself of volition. Such infinity of will must have been eternally inherent in the First Source and Center.

    107:7.5 Throughout a universe of created beings and nonpersonal energies we do not observe will, volition, choice, and love manifested apart from personality. 

    16:8.5 Creature personality is distinguished by two self-manifesting and characteristic phenomena of mortal reactive behavior: self-consciousness and associated relative free will.

     

  6. Hi everyone,

    Maybe on those “normal” worlds in a system the people there have similar faith opportunities as we have.  Mara   post: 21548

    On 619 inhabited worlds, 37 fall deceived in Satania system.

    On those disloyals worlds … how much have a double failure or 7 uncommon assets?

    114:7.15 The loyal inhabited worlds of Satania are not governed as is Urantia.

    114:0.4 (1250.4) Urantia is not without proper and effective supervision from the system, constellation, and universe rulers. But the planetary government is unlike that of any other world in the Satania system, even in all Nebadon. This uniqueness in your plan of supervision is due to a number of unusual circumstances:

    114:0.5(1250.5) 1. The life modification status of Urantia.

    114:0.6(1250.6) 2. The exigencies of the Lucifer rebellion.

    114:0.7(1250.7) 3. The disruptions of the Adamic default.

    114:0.8(1250.8) 4. The irregularities growing out of the fact that Urantia was one of the bestowal worlds of the Universe Sovereign. Michael of Nebadon is the Planetary Prince of Urantia.

    114:0.9(1250.9) 5. The special function of the twenty-four planetary directors.

    114:0.10(1250.10) 6. The location on the planet of an archangels’ circuit.

    114:0.11(1250.11) 7. The more recent designation of the onetime incarnated Machiventa Melchizedek as vicegerent Planetary Prince.

    Mara, looking at those unusual circumstances is set apart at least our planet among all the 619 inhabited planets. Concerning “similar faith opportunities” it didn’t apply to us. Our faith opportunities imply a very rare juncture. As a ”vale of soul making” (149:5.5)like any other worlds, we have a adding potential “vale of Agondonters soul making”

    Affection,

    André

     

     

     

  7. Has the Lucifer rebellion been adjudicated?  Mara

    I do not know Mara. What I know is, the revelators were contains about what could be said. Those legitimate human concern questions can get our attention superficially from time to time schmoozing and get back to work. It is in our nature (influence of adjuvats) to inquire, to be curious.

    We have all the work arounds we need …posted 21545 • Bonita

     

  8. Has the Lucifer rebellion been adjudicated?
    No. But a few people think it has been adjudicated. What do you think?

    As I had responded previously, I must apologize for having interrupted my interaction but, on thinking about your statement above, I thought that it would be interesting to look at how the Urantia Book presenters viewed the effect of the Rebellion.

    The following section entitled “The Triumph of Love” contains much information which can be understood as beneficial to the overall information presented regarding the Rebellion and might indicate that the benefits overcame the cause, which is not well represented elsewhere in the UB.

    6. The Triumph of Love

    (618.4) 54:6.1 Whatever the difficulties evolutionary mortals may encounter in their efforts to understand the Lucifer rebellion, it should be clear to all reflective thinkers that the technique of dealing with the rebels is a vindication of divine love. The loving mercy extended to the rebels does seem to have involved many innocent beings in trials and tribulations, but all these distraught personalities may securely depend upon the all-wise Judges to adjudicate their destinies in mercy as well as justice.

    It might be implied from the previous narration that the Rebellion is still being adjudicated?

    (618.5) 54:6.2 In all their dealings with intelligent beings, both the Creator Son and his Paradise Father are love dominated. It is impossible to comprehend many phases of the attitude of the universe rulers toward rebels and rebellion — sin and sinners — unless it be remembered that God as a Father takes precedence over all other phases of Deity manifestation in all the dealings of divinity with humanity. It should also be recalled that the Paradise Creator Sons are all mercy motivated.

    (618.6) 54:6.3 If an affectionate father of a large family chooses to show mercy to one of his children guilty of grievous wrongdoing, it may well be that the extension of mercy to this misbehaving child will work a temporary hardship upon all the other and well-behaved children. Such eventualities are inevitable; such a risk is inseparable from the reality situation of having a loving parent and of being a member of a family group. Each member of a family profits by the righteous conduct of every other member; likewise must each member suffer the immediate time-consequences of the misconduct of every other member. Families, groups, nations, races, worlds, systems, constellations, and universes are relationships of association which possess individuality; and therefore does every member of any such group, large or small, reap the benefits and suffer the consequences of the rightdoing and the wrongdoing of all other members of the group concerned.

    (619.1) 54:6.4 But one thing should be made clear: If you are made to suffer the evil consequences of the sin of some member of your family, some fellow citizen or fellow mortal, even rebellion in the system or elsewhere — no matter what you may have to endure because of the wrongdoing of your associates, fellows, or superiors — you may rest secure in the eternal assurance that such tribulations are transient afflictions. None of these fraternal consequences of misbehavior in the group can ever jeopardize your eternal prospects or in the least degree deprive you of your divine right of Paradise ascension and God attainment.

    (619.2) 54:6.5 And there is compensation for these trials, delays, and disappointments which invariably accompany the sin of rebellion. Of the many valuable repercussions of the Lucifer rebellion which might be named, I will only call attention to the enhanced careers of those mortal ascenders, the Jerusem citizens, who, by withstanding the sophistries of sin, placed themselves in line for becoming future Mighty Messengers, fellows of my own order. Every being who stood the test of that evil episode thereby immediately advanced his administrative status and enhanced his spiritual worth.

    I highlighted the word “sophistries” because in most cases its definition and usage in the UB seems to be fixed by many as “a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.” And, in general they would be correct but, when one looks at the root of the word “Sophist”, one may find that it encompasses a larger meaning which includes “wisdom” and “skill” or a method of applying a philosophy.

    “Word Origin and History for sophistry:”
    “’specious but fallacious reasoning,’ mid-14c., from Old French sophistrie (Modern French sophisterie), from Medieval Latin sophistria, from Latin sophista, sophistes (see sophist ). ‘Sophistry applies to reasoning as sophism to a single argument’”

    And the Etymology of “Sophist”, is as follows:

    The Greek σοφός (sophos), related to the noun σοφία (sophia), had the meaning “skilled” or “wise” since the time of the poet Homer and originally was used to describe anyone with expertise in a specific domain of knowledge or craft. For example, a charioteer, a sculptor or a warrior could be described as sophoi in their occupations. Gradually, however, the word also came to denote general wisdom and especially wisdom about human affairs (for example, in politics, ethics, or household management). This was the meaning ascribed to the Greek Seven Sages of 7th and 6th century BC (like Solon and Thales), and it was the meaning that appeared in the histories of Herodotus. Richard Martin refers to the seven sages as “performers of political poetry.”

    From the word σοφός (sophos) is derived the verb σοφίζω (sophizo), which means “to instruct or make learned,” but which in the passive voice means “to become or be wise,” or “to be clever or skilled in a thing.” In turn, from this verb is derived the noun σοφιστής (sophistes), which originally meant “a master of one’s craft” but later came to mean “a prudent man” or “wise man.” The word for “sophist” in various languages comes from sophistes.

     

    (619.3) 54:6.6 At first the Lucifer upheaval appeared to be an unmitigated calamity to the system and to the universe. Gradually benefits began to accrue. With the passing of twenty-five thousand years of system time (twenty thousand years of Urantia time), the Melchizedeks began to teach that the good resulting from Lucifer’s folly had come to equal the evil incurred. The sum of evil had by that time become almost stationary, continuing to increase only on certain isolated worlds, while the beneficial repercussions continued to multiply and extend out through the universe and superuniverse, even to Havona. The Melchizedeks now teach that the good resulting from the Satania rebellion is more than a thousand times the sum of all the evil.

    So, if we take what has been presented above, how can we look at the Rebellion as a failure, if its intended purpose yielded such good results?

    (619.4) 54:6.7 But such an extraordinary and beneficent harvest of wrongdoing could only be brought about by the wise, divine, and merciful attitude of all of Lucifer’s superiors, extending from the Constellation Fathers on Edentia to the Universal Father on Paradise. The passing of time has enhanced the consequential good to be derived from the Lucifer folly; and since the evil to be penalized was quite fully developed within a comparatively short time, it is apparent that the all-wise and farseeing universe rulers would be certain to extend the time in which to reap increasingly beneficial results. Regardless of the many additional reasons for delaying the apprehension and adjudication of the Satania rebels, this one gain would have been enough to explain why these sinners were not sooner interned, and why they have not been adjudicated and destroyed.

    From the previous narration, can one surmise that if the Rebellion was not started or planned, as it was, could the same results be produced in the same time frame or span?

    (619.5) 54:6.8 Shortsighted and time-bound mortal minds should be slow to criticize the time delays of the farseeing and all-wise administrators of universe affairs.

    (620.1) 54:6.9 One error of human thinking respecting these problems consists in the idea that all evolutionary mortals on an evolving planet would choose to enter upon the Paradise career if sin had not cursed their world. The ability to decline survival does not date from the times of the Lucifer rebellion. Mortal man has always possessed the endowment of freewill choice regarding the Paradise career.

    (620.2) 54:6.10 As you ascend in the survival experience, you will broaden your universe concepts and extend your horizon of meanings and values; and thus will you be able the better to understand why such beings as Lucifer and Satan are permitted to continue in rebellion. You will also better comprehend how ultimate (if not immediate) good can be derived from time-limited evil. After you attain Paradise, you will really be enlightened and comforted when you listen to the superaphic philosophers discuss and explain these profound problems of universe adjustment. But even then, I doubt that you will be fully satisfied in your own minds. At least I was not even when I had thus attained the acme of universe philosophy. I did not achieve a full comprehension of these complexities until after I had been assigned to administrative duties in the superuniverse, where by actual experience I have acquired conceptual capacity adequate for the comprehension of such many-sided problems in cosmic equity and spiritual philosophy. As you ascend Paradiseward, you will increasingly learn that many problematic features of universe administration can only be comprehended subsequent to the acquirement of increased experiential capacity and to the achievement of enhanced spiritual insight. Cosmic wisdom is essential to the understanding of cosmic situations.

    (620.3) 54:6.11 [Presented by a Mighty Messenger of experiential survival in the first system rebellion in the universes of time now attached to the superuniverse government of Orvonton and acting in this matter by request of Gabriel of Salvington.]

  9. . . . to look at how the Urantia Book presenters viewed the effect of the Rebellion.

    Thanks.  You did say in an earlier post you did not think the rebellion had been adjudicated, but you deleted those posts so I can’t pull out your exact comments on the subject.  “The shadow of a hair’s turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle — these constitute falseness.” Lucifer attempted to do the nondoable. (54:2:3) “Supreme justice can act instantly when not restrained by divine mercy.” (54:4:6)

    54:3:2  Although conscious and wholehearted identification with evil (sin) is the equivalent of nonexistence (annihilation), there must always intervene between the time of such personal identification with sin and the execution of the penalty — the automatic result of such a willful embrace of evil — a period of time of sufficient length to allow for such an adjudication of such an individual’s universe status as will prove entirely satisfactory to all related universe personalities, and which will be so fair and just as to win the approval of the sinner himself.
    It is very hard to imagine an individual, such as Lucifer, awaiting adjudication by the courts of the Ancients of Days being won over and approving of the final results for which so many in our local universe are waiting!
    66:8:7  And now this rebel of the realm, shorn of all power to harm his former subjects, awaits the final adjudication, by the Uversa Ancients of Days, of all who participated in the Lucifer rebellion.

     

  10. You did say in an earlier post you did not think the rebellion had been adjudicated, [. . .]

    To some degree that is correct.  It would seem that the adjudication process is still going on but, are you thinking that this process is only for the leaders of the Rebellion or all of those who had and are participating?

    Lucifer attempted to do the nondoable.

    Based on the UB narrative only, it really does not go into what was “nondoable”, but I have my own ideas as to what that was.  Nevertheless, if one assumes that the good that came out of the rebellion outweighed the sin, which was allowed to be presented might indicate, that if the underlying reason for the rebellion was to achieve the current results as indicated, it could also be assumed that the attempt to do the “nondoable” succeeded?  This all is relevant to understand what was done and why it was thought to be necessary that it be attempted?

    It is very hard to imagine an individual, such as Lucifer, awaiting adjudication by the courts of the Ancients of Days being won over and approving of the final results for which so many in our local universe are waiting!

    Again, if one is awaiting adjudication for something which they have already been presented as being guilty, it would also be necessary to know exactly what the charges are that they were assumed to be guilty.  In other areas where I attempted to present a defense for those who took part in the rebellion as opposed to just taking the prosecutions point of view as final, where which it was my argument that everyone was entitled to a defense, I was met with opposition and no argument or evidence to prove the prosecutions case.

    Using the same premise, as was presented in my previous post, where mercy had been applied I took it upon myself to assume that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  If Lucifer et all, were found guilty, and no other facts have been presented other then their exercising Free Will, then one could assume that that was what they were found guilty of?  If this is the case then we as mortals, here on Urantia, also having free will, would be found guilty if we chose not to choose but from one choice given?

    On another Forum, in a private section, I was badgered to formally present an oath of allegiance to Michael.  Regardless of my argument that I had the free will right to only present my allegiance to my universal Father, I was ridiculed for implying that if Immanuel did not do so, then I also have that right.  Nevertheless, outside of that private section of the forum, I was attacted by admin, to perform certain things which were actually against policy and had I had done so, would have lost my self-respect which was the underlying intention.  Ultimately, I was sanctioned from that forum.

    Now if this is the same type of, sin which those who partook in the rebellion were subject too, then it would seem that there was something going on back then, when the rebellion was presented, that is not being presented in the UB?  Where to some degree, from my understanding of the text, that there is little real evidence available, specifically from the Urantia involvement that has been presented to even hold a fair trial for anyone?  Even though the rebellion might be over, the adjudication is still ongoing and not just for the leaders of the rebellion.

    So, your last statement above, regarding those who are waiting in the local universe, concerns me less than those who are waiting here on Urantia.  It would also seem Urantia is a key world which carries more weight than other worlds to be finally adjudicated, if for no other reason than Michael having chosen Urantia for his final bestowal?

  11. MidiChlorian,

    • it really does not go into what was “nondoable”
    • are you thinking that this process is only for the leaders of the Rebellion or all of those who had and are participating?
    • if the underlying reason for the rebellion was to achieve the current results as indicated, it could also be assumed that the attempt to do the “nondoable” succeeded
    Although being a Son of God, I have not infused science, even less in the field which preoccupies some here, Lucifer’s rebellion.
    Personally, I can’t stand all those theories implying lies, doubts and questioning a hidden agenda from Our Father.
    When TUB tells me   Lucifer’s folly was the attempt to do the nondoable   54:2.3for me it’s enough.
    Anything said by you or others humans, celestial entities contrary to this is doomed. (period)
    Brother, lately I reach to you on behalf of brotherhood. In this brotherhood MidiChlorian you must consider there is some who are rebels and pursuit “non-existential” realities.
  12. Midi says above:  “So, if we take what has been presented above, how can we look at the Rebellion as a failure, if its intended purpose yielded such good results?”

     

    Me here:  I am curious as to your meaning by “intended purpose”.  You must mean Lucifer’s purpose?  Since we are told that the rebellion originated in Lucifer’s mind (per many quotes already posted), his purpose was clearly presented as well – to deny the existence of God and declare himself Lord of Satania in contradiction to Michael’s (and Father’s) will and declare false liberty.  I think we can demonstrate by text that the purpose of Michael and God and throughout all the universe of universes was subverted, distorted, denied, and openly defied by Lucifer…this is clearly presented….nothing obscure or otherwise confusing about the “purpose” of the Manifesto.

     

    53:4.1 (604.3) The Lucifer manifesto was issued at the annual conclave of Satania on the sea of glass, in the presence of the assembled hosts of Jerusem, on the last day of the year, about two hundred thousand years ago, Urantia time. Satan proclaimed that worship could be accorded the universal forces — physical, intellectual, and spiritual — but that allegiance could be acknowledged only to the actual and present ruler, Lucifer, the “friend of men and angels” and the “God of liberty.”

    53:4.2 (604.4) Self-assertion was the battle cry of the Lucifer rebellion.

    Midi says above:  “Again, if one is awaiting adjudication for something which they have already been presented as being guilty, it would also be necessary to know exactly what the charges are that they were assumed to be guilty. In other areas where I attempted to present a defense for those who took part in the rebellion as opposed to just taking the prosecutions point of view as final, where which it was my argument that everyone was entitled to a defense, I was met with opposition and no argument or evidence to prove the prosecutions case.

    Using the same premise, as was presented in my previous post, where mercy had been applied I took it upon myself to assume that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. If Lucifer et all, were found guilty, and no other facts have been presented other then their exercising Free Will, then one could assume that that was what they were found guilty of? If this is the case then we as mortals, here on Urantia, also having free will, would be found guilty if we chose not to choose but from one choice given?”

     

    Me here:  This too has been thoroughly and previously addressed.  There is no question as to guilt or innocence for those who are charged with adjudication and the extension or end of mercy credits.  To deny reality and to persist in doing so has an inevitable result – one might call it an eventuation of such free will choice – its called irrelevancy and eventual self erasure/annihilation.  The “judgement” is only about the ability of the rebels and their willingness to re-embrace reality or the truth, beauty, and goodness expressions of love for others rather than of self.

    The adjudicators await that time to come when all minds affected/infected by rebellion have completely and finally chosen for themselves either reality or non-reality and also that time when there is no sympathy for the “purpose” or the “perpetrators” of rebellion and their cause.  I wonder if Midi’s sympathy keeps the time for adjudication open awhile longer?  But we are assured of the “guilt” of the rebel leaders….clearly so.

    Perhaps a more detailed discussion of true and false liberty might be helpful?  There is never one “choice”.  We are not automatons or slaves.  But there is only one reality for all who make choices – the reality of love and service.  The more we love others and serve with love, the more we embrace reality.  The more we love self and serve self, the more we embrace unreality.  We choose our destiny thusly.  It seems wonderfully fair, just, and functional to me.  But I lack the fear and paranoia which delivers such doubts about God and his friendly universe…which helps.  We might also discuss prejudice (the loyalty to and love of one’s opinions and perspective – a mind poison) and spiritual pride.

    And the Master said:  “… I would sternly warn you against the subtleties of pride, spiritual pride. If you could understand the downfall of Lucifer, the iniquitous one, you would solemnly shun all forms of spiritual pride.”

    160:1.13 (1774.5) Prejudice blinds the soul to the recognition of truth, and prejudice can be removed only by the sincere devotion of the soul to the adoration of a cause that is all-embracing and all-inclusive of one’s fellow men. Prejudice is inseparably linked to selfishness. Prejudice can be eliminated only by the abandonment of self-seeking and by substituting therefor the quest of the satisfaction of the service of a cause that is not only greater than self, but one that is even greater than all humanity — the search for God, the attainment of divinity. The evidence of maturity of personality consists in the transformation of human desire so that it constantly seeks for the realization of those values which are highest and most divinely real.

    = )

     

     

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  13. Bradly wrote: I wonder if Midi’s sympathy keeps the time for adjudication open awhile longer?

    My passions have been aroused!  Thank you, thank you, thank you for verbalizing this thought I have been thinking for a very long time.  Sympathy for sin!  Of course!  There are folks here on our isolated planet who still sympathize with Lucifer and some of them are infiltrating the TUB community because they know TUB was sanctioned by Michael, and they just can’t stand anything sanctioned by Michael.

    53:8:2 Subsequent to their effort to corrupt Michael when in the bestowal flesh, all sympathy for Lucifer and Satan has perished throughout all Satania, that is, outside the isolated worlds of sin.

    As long as there are personalities desirous of living under the Lucifer Manifesto, it will continue.  The universe allows for every opportunity of fulfillment and if a person’s most cherished desire can only be satisfied with self-destruction, then it will be.

    44:8.4 But every human being should remember: Many ambitions to excel which tantalize mortals in the flesh will not persist with these same mortals in the morontia and spirit careers. The ascending morontians learn to socialize their former purely selfish longings and egoistic ambitions. Nevertheless, those things which you so earnestly longed to do on earth and which circumstances so persistently denied you, if, after acquiring true mota insight in the morontia career, you still desire to do, then will you most certainly be granted every opportunity fully to satisfy your long-cherished desires.

    And because we humans have such a slippery hold on reality, enormous amounts of time is given for us to gain traction.  As long as there are minds desiring to be twisted by the Lucifer Manifesto it will continue to exist.  Once all final decisions are made it will dissolve and disappear, because it is not real.  In the meantime, we have to put up with rebellion enthusiasts who keep it alive.  But it is not alive and well, that is for sure.  It is alive and holding on with just a thread . . .  not well at all . . .  but sick and dying.

    And why is it dying?  Because since Michael became sovereign, everything that cannot be spiritualized is being destroyed.  Knowing this, the rebellion lovers are adamantly against anything Michael does. Of course they would be. They are fighting for what they think is their life, the anti-reality they have mistaken for reality.  It won’t be long before we can say good-bye to this poppycock.  It will die. Yay!   There’s no question about it, and that is something I am supremely passionate about.  Can’t wait.

    p241:1 21:5.4 The elevation of a sevenfold bestowal Son to the unquestioned sovereignty of his universe means the beginning of the end of agelong uncertainty and relative confusion. Subsequent to this event, that which cannot be sometime spiritualized will eventually be disorganized; that which cannot be sometime co-ordinated with cosmic reality will eventually be destroyed. When the provisions of endless mercy and nameless patience have been exhausted in an effort to win the loyalty and devotion of the will creatures of the realms, justice and righteousness will prevail. That which mercy cannot rehabilitate justice will eventually annihilate. 

  14. Alas, my interest is piqued again!

    The reason no one posts on this forum is because of the malicious maneuvering of the dastardly duo . . . Brad/Bonita . . . who conspire to petrify truth, deny opinion, encourage unfair judgment against free thinking, destroy creativity and imagination, set up walls against nonconformists, blaspheme against God, spew sophistries, balk at myth making, foist fraud, lead truth seekers astray, corrupt the revelation, force feed specious intellectualism, crush ideas with cunning egotistic casuistry, overpower the spirit with nitpicking, pedantic criticism and by the sheer power of perverted personality shut down the whole dang shebang. Yup.  Brad/Bonita suck.  They are the worst of the worst.  Everyone knows that.

  15. If the rebellion has been adjudicated would we not be finding out the facts via broadcast?

    Being free of isolation is more interesting than Lucifers court case.

  16. Bonita…you crack me up!!  Who says sarcasm can’t be typed?

    I have been called a fundamentalist and uncompromising by many a reader who does not believe what the UB says, or believes it is written in code for those with the keys to unlock it (sometimes by crop circle or astrology or other forms of soothsaying), or have some other preconception that they seek validation for, etc.  And yet, my position has never wavered – it is simply the book says what it says and does not say what it does not – believe what it says or not, I have no opinion on that nor any requirement or request that anyone else believe it – just don’t distort, misstate, misrepresent, misquote, torture, twist, and torment the text….please.  It is easy to verify its contents.

    While discussing those contents and the application of facts and truths discovered upon our very individual journeys makes for extremely interesting study material for all to share.  = )

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  17. Greetings All! I find it both curious and most interesting that this one who calls himself Caligastia at TruthBook and was booted from there for his adoration of and defense of his name sake and Satan and Lucifer, and who claims they were duped and coerced into rebellion by the Life Carriers (among others) and further, that the UB is an attempted cover up of the malfeasance, corruption, untrustworthiness, insincerity, and vicious immorality of Michael’s rule and universe rulers has recently here proclaimed the same, while accusing myself and another of being the cause of a lack of participation at this Forum where the one has been welcome and posting for a decade +/- and I have been posting for nearly 5 years. Is this what a wolf in sheep’s clothing might look like? What motive of heart and what intention of mind is on display here by such a persistent voice of doubt, suspicion, accusation, declaration, darkness, and the defense/embrace of evil??!!

    To his credit, I have learned much about the Revelation and my own self mastery by coping with and responding to his constant twisting and tormenting of the text we share here together. But I wonder now if the Moderators should consider such a constant yammering from such a doubter and defender of iniquity someone to support and give further voice to this student body and fold? I am fine with continued engagement and providing further contrast to such a dark and doubting one so none need worry for me. But what of others? What is the effect, over time, of this drip, drip, drip of doubt and despair? Something to think about.

    Here we go again, but now the attack has turned into lies!

    To set the record straight, the Avatar “Caligastia” on TruthBook was “booted” because of exercising that forum’s protocol, where as is stated in their rules, if there is an issue with “Admin”, rather than posting any grievance on the public forum, the PM (private messaging system should be used) where by it would be responded to directly.  As it turned out, this was, performed but no reply nor interation was forthcoming from that specific Admin member, who was admonished for promoting himself as a leaned “channelor” and had advertised this publicly but, having many times admonished other posters for their narrations as coming from “channeling” information, where that word or subject had not been present on those topics.  The presumption was that there was no oversight of Admin and having attempted to contact the forum’s sponsor’s, it was determined that there was only an answering service providing a general directive that there would be a response forthcoming, which was presented twice, and still no contact to date.  Therefore, it was assumed that this was subterfuge, possibly for retaining donations from visitors to the web-site?

    A period of months went by where there was no response nor intervention, until it was necessary to post the previous information publicly again, in response to the same type of harassment, where Admin publicly indicated that they were never going to respond because he thought it beneath him to do so.   Which was his right, as an individual, but as an Administrator of a Forum, should abide by the posted rules, and conduct him self accordingly.  As it turns out this information is of records and also his response in his actions.

    Therefore, I have tagged Bradly’s post as “inappropriate content” an attempt to discredit me here, by inferring lies, not to mention that by implementing someone else, from another forum, who has acted based on Bradly’s own hatred for me and admitted to continue his attack against me as deliberate defamation, which if it were not that a certain amount of anonymity was not expected here, I would be suing him personally but then there has been no loss of revenue to retrieve.  But as I have presented before he is only practicing his ideologue, where he feels he must zealously advocates his ideology but as being a professed tadpole who does not wish to progress to the next step in evolution, I can only sympathize that all do not have the intellect to follow teaching as presented by Jesus.

    I am however, puzzled that such performance is not noticed by this sites administration, as being aggressive and inappropriate, where if it is being supported and allowed, that it is also the attitude of “The Urantia Association” who sponsors this forum?

          

  18. To set the record straight,

    Not interested.  Please stay on topic.

  19. . . . for example:

    Based on the UB narrative only, it really does not go into what was “nondoable”. . . .

    The revelation does go into Lucifer’s crime, the nondoable: the attempt to short-circuit time in an experiential universe; the attempted disenfranchisement of every personality in Satania; the attempted abridgment of the freewill participation both individually and collectively to contribute something personal and unique in the long evolutionary plan for this little patch of universe to attain light and life.  Lucifer devised a purpose of his own will, the Lucifer’s manifesto, directly in opposition to the eternal purpose of God’s will.  Lucifer preferred his scheme of liberty, his will, as against the will of God.  There are no short-circuit ways to get around God’s will.   There are no short-cuts here on Urantia or elsewhere.  Short-circuits turn the lights out.

    54:2:3  Lucifer’s folly was the attempt to do the nondoable, to short-circuit time in an experiential universe. Lucifer’s crime was the attempted creative disenfranchisement of every personality in Satania, the unrecognized abridgment of the creature’s personal participation — freewill participation — in the long evolutionary struggle to attain the status of light and life both individually and collectively. In so doing this onetime Sovereign of your system set the temporal purpose of his own will directly athwart the eternal purpose of God’s will as it is revealed in the bestowal of free will upon all personal creatures. The Lucifer rebellion thus threatened the maximum possible infringement of the freewill choice of the ascenders and servers of the system of Satania — a threat forevermore to deprive every one of these beings of the thrilling experience of contributing something personal and unique to the slowly erecting monument to experiential wisdom which will sometime exist as the perfected system of Satania. Thus does the Lucifer manifesto, masquerading in the habiliments of liberty, stand forth in the clear light of reason as a monumental threat to consummate the theft of personal liberty and to do it on a scale that has been approached only twice in all the history of Nebadon.
  20. I am curious as to your meaning by “intended purpose”. You must mean Lucifer’s purpose? Since we are told that the rebellion originated in Lucifer’s mind (per many quotes already posted), his purpose was clearly presented as well – to deny the existence of God and declare himself Lord of Satania in contradiction to Michael’s (and Father’s) will and declare false liberty. I think we can demonstrate by text that the purpose of Michael and God and throughout all the universe of universes was subverted, distorted, denied, and openly defied by Lucifer…this is clearly presented….nothing obscure or otherwise confusing about the “purpose” of the Manifesto.

    As you present above Bradly, it is definitely a function of mind where personalities think, in that you bring up text which is found in the UB, as “originated in Lucifer’s mind”, where I must assume that you also have a mind with where to think?  Besides, where else would any thought or idea or understanding of circumstances come from?  But, it is also noted that the powers that be could access Lucifer’s mind, in order to even know where these thoughts came from, and if this was the case, nothing that he could present was or should have been a surprise to them?  Not to mention that nothing has been presented in the UB that having knowledge of what was in Lucifer’s mind, nothing was done to take him aside in order to help straighten him out, unless they didn’t want him to know that they know his thoughts?

    Nevertheless, as I understand it Lucifer acknowledged Michael, but was adamant about the ascension scheme inferring that the Father or God was only located in paradise, where we know that He is everywhere.  So, why present that the only path is to paradise, in that it is not a location but a state of mind?

    I’m not sure what you mean by saying “Michael’s (and Father’s) will” in the context which you present above; are you saying that Michael as a separate personally who has not, at that time been declared as full sovereign of the His universe yet, has stated any will which He has proclaimed other than what may have been presented by Jesus, in the flesh, who’s teaching should be considered as also coming from Michael after His bestowal mission?  If that is the case then can we assume that prior to the seventh bestowal mission, Michael’s will was the same or may have changed because of His interaction with humans on Urantia, thereby having hands on experience which would validate His sovereignty?

    I would very much like to debate you statement above where you said: “I think we can demonstrate by text”, what the purpose is or was?  Where my mention of an “intended purpose” would be debatable, in that what has been presented in the UB as being the Lucifer Manifesto, is not an actual quotation from the manifesto, and only a presentation of opinion, as understood by that specific author?  If we were to have the actual transcript of this “Manifesto”, it could be examined as actual evidence to the fact instead of only speculation?   Where by saying above that “…this is clearly presented….”, is only you opinion, and as a self proclaimed tadpole, I would question the ability of a non-evolved tadpole as understanding “clearly”?

    And yet, my position has never wavered – it is simply the book says what it says and does not say what it does not – believe what it says or not, I have no opinion on that nor any requirement or request that anyone else believe it – just don’t distort, misstate, misrepresent, misquote, torture, twist, and torment the text….please.

    I understand Bradly that your “position has never wavered” – where you are correct that the UB is only a book, but is does not speak.  As a reader of any book, it is how the reader interprets what is in that book that determined the material within, and if any reader has determined by its context that “the book says what it says and does not say what it does not”, is based on the readers ability to comprehend only a simple presentation which they can possibly understand.  Where if it so simple, then why is it that when attempting to make a case for some argument, only cut and pasted text is used, and sometimes out of context at that, or incomplete reference.

    There are many who have presented passages from the UB which they find either confusing or sometimes misleading, which is natural based on the complexity of the text and how it is narrated.  Where it has been my experience to read some of your posts which presents verbiage which is unrelated to the quoted text which you present, and seem to use as validation of your understanding thereof?  If the book is so simple, then why can you not present your opinion with simple descriptive understanding?  Is it because you are a tadpole? I don’t know, but to bully other people for not coming down to your level of understanding is not what the UB was presented to do, IMO.

     

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