Preview: a read-only copy of the forum. To post or reply, use the current forum.

Entropy – who says!

77 posts · 7 participants · started Sep 27, 2014, 3:05 PM

emanny3003Blocked
Oct 20, 2014, 11:12 PM
Here is TUB quote that ties space directly to heat and energy and light and chemism and matter (material bodies), etc.

118:3.5 Space comes the nearest of all nonabsolute things to being absolute. Space is apparently absolutely ultimate. The real difficulty we have in understanding space on the material level is due to the fact that, while material bodies exist in space, space also exists in these same material bodies. While there is much about space that is absolute, that does not mean that space is absolute.

118:3.6 It may help to an understanding of space relationships if you would conjecture that, relatively speaking, space is after all a property of all material bodies. Hence, when a body moves through space, it also takes all its properties with it, even the space which is in and of such a moving body.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 22, 2014, 1:57 PM
emanny3003 wrote: While un-pervaded space participates in space respiration, it does not participate in the secondary motion of space as defined above. And while the Central Universe is part of pervaded space it participates in secondary motion of as defined above but not necessarily the primary motion of space respiration.

I must be blind or something. I don’t read any such thing in the quote you posted. There’s no mention at all of pervaded or unpervaded space in that quote. Perhaps if I reproduce the quotes I referenced and point out specifically what I’m talking about you might appreciate my point of view. In the next quote please note that the space levels encircling the central isle of Paradise are all part of pervaded space, and this includes the Central Universe of Havona which is a part of the horizontal extension of pervaded space.
12:1.3-9 Proceeding outward from Paradise through the horizontal extension of pervaded space, the master universe is existent in six concentric ellipses, the space levels encircling the central Isle:
1. The Central Universe – Havona.
2. The Seven Superuniverses.
3. The First Outer Space Level.
4. The Second Outer Space Level.
5. The Third Outer Space Level.
6. The Fourth and Outermost Space Level.
Now, please consider the following quote which states that All space alternately contracts and expands, including both the horizontal extension of pervaded space, of which the Central Universe is a part, and the vertical extension of unpervaded space.

11:6.1 We do not know the actual mechanism of space respiration; we merely observe that all space alternately contracts and expands. This respiration affects both the horizontal extension of pervaded space and the vertical extensions of unpervaded space which exist in the vast space reservoirs above and below Paradise. In attempting to imagine the volume outlines of these space reservoirs, you might think of an hourglass.

Space movement in the horizontal extension must pass through the Central Universe on its way to Paradise where it flows through the transmuting regulation channels and is transformed to unperaded space.

11:6.2 As the universes of the horizontal extension of pervaded space expand, the reservoirs of the vertical extension of unpervaded space contract and vice versa. There is a confluence of pervaded and unpervaded space just underneath nether Paradise. Both types of space there flow through the transmuting regulation channels, where changes are wrought making pervadable space nonpervadable and vice versa in the contraction and expansion cycles of the cosmos.

emanny3003 wrote:Perfect spheres rotate but do not expand or contract. The billion spheres of Havona are not charged bodies as those of evolutionary physical creation. The dark gravity bodies surrounding the Central Universe do not participate in this respiration of space, its primary motion. The Central Universe is not a time creation; it is an eternal existence.

It is the space that is respiring, not the bodies within the space. If you fill a balloon with ionized confetti and blow it up, expand it with more space, the particles of confetti will move apart. If you allow some of the air to be released, thus contracting the space, the confetti particles will be closer together, but they will still be there in their same relationships.

emanny3003 wrote: Matter resides in space but recall that space is a part of matter. Matter contains space. Matter, heat and energy all contain space. How are they not intimately related?

Yes they are related in part, but that doesn’t mean that they all take part equally in the whole. For instance, we all exist within God and God exists within us. We all have a fragment of God within us with whom we are intimately related. Even so, we as individuals do not take part in all of God’s activities. All the matter and energy of space may contain space, just as each of us contains a fragment of God, but that does not mean that the space within matter participates in all activities and functions of space.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 22, 2014, 2:10 PM

emanny3003 wrote:

How would describe the relationship between cosmic insight and imagination?

They are not the same thing. Cosmic insight is consciousness of spiritual meanings and values. Imagination, on the other hand, is not necessarily spiritual in nature. It is not possible to understand cosmic problems from only a scientific or mathematical viewpoint, imaginative or otherwise. You must also consider the philosophical and spiritual aspects when contemplating cosmic relationships.

103:7.8 The truth — an understanding of cosmic relationships, universe facts, and spiritual values — can best be had through the ministry of the Spirit of Truth and can best be criticized by revelation. But revelation originates neither a science nor a religion; its function is to co-ordinate both science and religion with the truth of reality. Always, in the absence of revelation or in the failure to accept or grasp it, has mortal man resorted to his futile gesture of metaphysics, that being the only human substitute for the revelation of truth or for the mota of morontia personality.
emanny3003Blocked
Oct 22, 2014, 11:08 PM

Bonita wrote:

I must be blind or something. I don’t read any such thing in the quote you posted. There’s no mention at all of pervaded or unpervaded space in that quote. Perhaps if I reproduce the quotes I referenced and point out specifically what I’m talking about you might appreciate my point of view.

But I do appreciate your point of view. My confusion comes when one is asked to visualize un-pervaded space as an hourglass and then asked to accept that it moves exactly as pervaded space. With pervaded space is easy to see both primary and secondary motions of space. Un-pervaded space cannot undergo secondary motion of rotating around Paradise as does pervaded space.

Pervade space participates in both primary and secondary motions of space but un-pervaded space can only participate in primary motion (respiration).

Bonita wrote:

It is the space that is respiring, not the bodies within the space.

If all of space is respiring, and I agree that all of space does, then the space that is a part of matter must also respire. All matter must likewise exhibit the motions of space. All of time-space creations must have these same motions. The Earth and all space bodies must expand and contract as they rotate about their centers. This is the pattern of all motion.

Bonita wrote:

Even so, we as individuals do not take part in all of God’s activities. All the matter and energy of space may contain space, just as each of us contains a fragment of God, but that does not mean that the space within matter participates in all activities and functions of space.

I agree that we as individuals do not take part in all of God’s activities but God certainly takes part in all of our activities. Space and time are inseparable and there is no time without motion. Neither is there material time-space creations without motion. Nature can be viewed as the habits of God.

When I quoted TUB when it says that the Central Universe is not a time creation, well, my next question is; is the Central universe a space creation? We know it is not a time-space creation because it exists in eternity. Space is sub-absolute yet the absolute of time is eternity. Is the space of the Central Universe different in some way? We know that its materialization is very different.

Does time and space part ways in some way unrevealed when it comes to the Central Universe? Does the Central Universe participate in secondary space motion but not primary space motion? Secondary space motion is absolute. It follows the Eternal Ellipse. Primary space motion is also absolute but it reflects every billions years. Why is space described as absolutely Ultimate but still sub-absolute?

Is space absolute in the Central Universe? Are we not talking about a perfect, eternal and absolute creation or did the Central Universe eventuate? Can you see my confusion? This is why I surmise that the Central Universe may not participate in space respirations.

Cosmic night is simply my term to speculate about what the Universe would do differently in contraction phase. Since radiation is associated with decreasing density, I conclude that when the Universe is contracting, the stars dim. We start a rest and regenerative phase. When we as ascenders arrive in Havona it is the end of days (and nights). When we achieve Paradise it is the end of time.

Perfect spheres can carry no charge. It like a neutron. They spin but do not expand and contract as do their charged relatives. A perfect sphere has no motion differential across its equator. Is space minus its primary motion absolute? Is the space of the Central Universe absolute?

Bonita wrote:

You must also consider the philosophical and spiritual aspects when contemplating cosmic relationships.

I completely agree.
emanny3003Blocked
Oct 24, 2014, 3:41 PM
Here is what TUB says about density and how it relates mass and space.

41:4.2 Gaseous, liquid, and solid states are matters of atomic-molecular relationships, but density is a relationship of space and mass. Density varies directly with the quantity of mass in space and inversely with the amount of space in mass, the space between the central cores of matter and the particles which whirl around these centers as well as the space within such material particles.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 25, 2014, 10:55 AM

emanny3003 wrote:  My confusion comes when one is asked to visualize un-pervaded space as an hourglass and then asked to accept that it moves exactly as pervaded space. With pervaded space is easy to see both primary and secondary motions of space. Un-pervaded space cannot undergo secondary motion of rotating around Paradise as does pervaded space.

Agreed. Horizontal pervaded space and vertical unpervaded space form a maltese cross and both spaces continually move back and forth, in and out of each space into the other. Secondary space motion has to do with clockwise and counterclockwise rotation of the various space levels around Paradise. Since unpervaded space does not have different space levels, it would seemingly not have secondary motion.

emanny3003 wrote:  If all of space is respiring, and I agree that all of space does, then the space that is a part of matter must also respire.

Agreed. However space does not respond to gravity. It is possible that space moves through matter.

emanny3003 wrote:  Space and time are inseparable and there is no time without motion. Neither is there material time-space creations without motion.

Time and space are inseparable only in the time-space creations of the seven super universes. But in mind, space and time are separable; consciousness of time can exist in the absence of motion. I think it would be more accurate to say that relationships to time do not exist without motion or sequence.

12:5.5 Relationships to time do not exist without motion in space, but consciousness of time does. Sequentiality can consciousize time even in the absence of motion. Man’s mind is less time-bound than space-bound because of the inherent nature of mind. Even during the days of the earth life in the flesh, though man’s mind is rigidly space-bound, the creative human imagination is comparatively time free. But time itself is not genetically a quality of mind.

emanny3003 wrote:   Is the space of the Central Universe different in some way? We know that its materialization is very different.

Why would the space of the Central Universe be different than any other space? Space is space. There is nothing written to suggest that space changes in any way except moving from pervaded to unpervaded and vice versa.

emanny3003 wrote:  Does time and space part ways in some way unrevealed when it comes to the Central Universe?

Space exists but time doesn’t. Time only exists in relation to something, be it motion or sequence, so they really don’t need to separate time and space.

emanny3003 wrote:  Does the Central Universe participate in secondary space motion but not primary space motion?

Space is space. It doesn’t matter where in the maltese cross it happens to be. Primary means the main, predominate motion of space. It makes sense that all space would take part in something that is primary, first and fundamental. You can’t have secondary without primary motion, in my opinion. I don’t think the authors would label space motion in such a way if it were otherwise.

emanny3003 wrote:  Secondary space motion is absolute. It follows the Eternal Ellipse. Primary space motion is also absolute but it reflects every billions years.

The motion of space is not space. Motion is not inherent in space (12:4.2)

emanny3003 wrote:  Why is space described as absolutely Ultimate but still sub-absolute?

You must be referring to this quote:

118:3.5 Space comes the nearest of all nonabsolute things to being absolute. Space is apparently absolutely ultimate. The real difficulty we have in understanding space on the material level is due to the fact that, while material bodies exist in space, space also exists in these same material bodies. While there is much about space that is absolute, that does not mean that space is absolute.

Note that they do not capitalize the word. What they mean is that space is fundamental and final in its existence and function. Space is not absolute because it has limits and is pervaded by the Unqualified Absolute.

12:5.2 Space is not infinite, even though it takes origin from Paradise; not absolute, for it is pervaded by the Unqualified Absolute.

emanny3003 wrote: Is space absolute in the Central Universe?

No. Space is space; no matter where it is, it is not absolute.

emanny3003 wrote:  Are we not talking about a perfect, eternal and absolute creation or did the Central Universe eventuate?

Yes, the Central Universe did eventuate. (0:3.22) Havona is neither a time or space creation. But it does exist within pervaded space. Time on Havona is arbitrarily recognized because “space respiration destroys its local value as a time source.” (12:5.1)

emanny3003 wrote:  Is the space of the Central Universe absolute?

Does this quote answer your question?

105:7.2 That which is transcendental is not necessarily nondevelopmental, but it is superevolutional in the finite sense; neither is it nonexperiential, but it is superexperience as such is meaningful to creatures. Perhaps the best illustration of such a paradox is the central universe of perfection: It is hardly absolute — only the Paradise Isle is truly absolute in the “materialized” sense. Neither is it a finite evolutionary creation as are the seven superuniverses. Havona is eternal but not changeless in the sense of being a universe of nongrowth. It is inhabited by creatures (Havona natives) who never were actually created, for they are eternally existent. Havona thus illustrates something which is not exactly finite nor yet absolute. Havona further acts as a buffer between absolute Paradise and finite creations, still further illustrating the function of transcendentals. But Havona itself is not a transcendental — it is Havona.

emanny3003 wrote:  Here is what TUB says about density and how it relates mass and space.

Yes, and it says nothing about motion, only relationships. Space still moves even if it is within material particles.
nelsongParticipant
Oct 25, 2014, 2:56 PM
If you take away space, what remains?

My imagination says nothing: space and nothing in my imagination are synonymous just because there is no preceptable difference..
emanny3003Blocked
Oct 26, 2014, 1:27 AM

Bonita wrote:

Agreed. However space does not respond to gravity. It is possible that space moves through matter.

TUB does clearly state the space is not gravity responsive, but space is a property of matter. And matter is controlled by gravity. Therefore, the space that is a part of matter must do what matter does and matter does what gravity tells it to do. I disagree that space moves through matter. If it did it would displace the space that is part of that matter. Space is real. It is a reality that exists as a part of matter and that space belonging to matter cannot just be pushed aside.

Bonita wrote:

Time and space are inseparable only in the time-space creations of the seven super universes. But in mind, space and time are separable; consciousness of time can exist in the absence of motion. I think it would be more accurate to say that relationships to time do not exist without motion or sequence.

So I see that you agree that the super universes are distinct from Havona. This I will take to be consistant with my contention that Havona is non-breathing. Time and space are separable, but only in theory, and only in mind, and only in mind of the Paradise level.

Bonita wrote:

Why would the space of the Central Universe be different than any other space? Space is space. There is nothing written to suggest that space changes in any way except moving from pervaded to unpervaded and vice versa.

If The Central Universe is not a time creation, as TUB states, then what is to say that it is a space creation? I agree that space does not change in any other way other than from unpervaded to pervaded space and visa versa. However, do time and space exist in Havona even thought it is not a time-space creation? The spheres of Havona certainly move. They must move in space and it takes time for them to revolve around Paradise.

Bonita wrote:

Space exists but time doesn’t. Time only exists in relation to something, be it motion or sequence, so they really don’t need to separate time and space.

Either time exists or it does not. If it can exist in mind it must exist. Existence exists. Havona is then related to time by virtue of its motion around Paradise. Havona is related to space because, as you say, they don’t to need separate time and space.

Bonita wrote:

No. Space is space; no matter where it is, it is not absolute.

I agree. What moves cannot be absolute.

Bonita wrote:

The motion of space is not space. Motion is not inherent in space (12:4.2)

Motion may not be inherent in space but space does move and someone or something moves it. The motion of matter is not matter. Is motion is inherent in matter? We are not told, but it must move otherwise it would not be material. And matter moves through space and takes the space that is of matter along for the ride.

Bonita wrote:

Space is not absolute because it has limits and is pervaded by the Unqualified Absolute.

This tells us that something absolute cannot pervade another absolute, which makes perfect sense. This is why the Thought Adjusters can pervade finite mind.

Bonita wrote:

Time on Havona is arbitrarily recognized because “space respiration destroys its local value as a time source.” (12:5.1)

I think you might have taken this quote out of context. They are not necessarily referring to time on Havona but to a universal time unit based on motion. And in the universe in general, the ‘totality’ of space respiration destroys motion’s local value as a time source. Havona is the exception in so far as the Paradise-Havona standard day is arbitrarily so recognized. This is how I read it.

Bonita wrote:

Yes, the Central Universe did eventuate. (0:3.22) Havona is neither a time or space creation. But it does exist within pervaded space.

Ok. We agree that Havona was eventuated and is neither a time or space creation. Havona has a relationship with time in that it contains motion. It has a relationship to space because its spheres move through space. But is that space pervaded with forces and energies such is required of space-time creations? Is the space that the spheres of Havona moves through pervaded by the Unqualified Absolute? Is Havona energized by the same mechanism as the space-time creations? No. Is the materialization of Havona the same as the space-time creations? No. Does the materializations of Havona contain space as do the materializations of space-time? My guess would be that they do not. The spheres of Havona are perfect. I would think that a perfect existence does not require the pervaded presence of the Unqualified Absolute. I do not think that Havona exists within pervaded space.

Recall now the enormous dark gravity bodies that enshroud the Central Universe and effectively renders it invisible from the Super-universes. The material from which they are made neither absorbs nor reflects light (energy). They are dark bodies so they do not radiate energy either. This leaves only one possibility. This wall of special materialization must bend the energy that approached it and shunts it around but not through Havona. Presumably, to the midspace zones where it is rendered free from the energies and forces of pervaded space and proceeds to un-pervaded space. I must now draw the conclusion that the space that exists in Havona is neither pervaded space nor un-pervaded space, but space that is self contained and exclusive to Havona. It is a space that does not move at all because motion is not inherent in space, as we have agreed on.

Bonita wrote:

Space still moves even if it is within material particles.

Yes, I agree. That goes back to my contention that the spheres of space-time expand and contract as they rotate. This explain crustal shifting and continental drift. Also the unexplained confusion about tides not entirely accounted for by sun and moon forces. It explains geothermal phenomenon from friction, volcanoes, and sudden crustal movements called earthquakes which still occur at about 15 occurrences per day.
emanny3003Blocked
Oct 26, 2014, 1:56 AM

nelsong wrote:

If you take away space, what remains?
My imagination says nothing: space and nothing in my imagination are synonymous just because there is no preceptable difference..

Hi Nelsong,

In my opinion if you take away space you also take way time. What you have left is void. That infinite and eternal void we refer to as Paradise. Our ascension career is a process of shedding our space-time. I guess that one can consider Paradise as nothing in the sense of “no thing”. Thing are objects and objects are material in space-time. Space is nothing only to the human perception. But space is real, it even moves.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 28, 2014, 2:45 PM

emanny3003 wrote: . . . but space is a property of matter. And matter is controlled by gravity. Therefore, the space that is a part of matter must do what matter does and matter does what gravity tells it to do.

That doesn’t sound logical to me. It’s like saying that God is love therefore love is God, which is not true. In a contest between space and matter, space will win. Not being subject to gravity, space will follow its primary transit regardless of where it is or what other forces are present within it.

emanny3003 wrote:  So I see that you agree that the super universes are distinct from Havona. This I will take to be consistant with my contention that Havona is non-breathing. Time and space are separable, but only in theory, and only in mind, and only in mind of the Paradise level.

No, do not take what I said to be consistent with your ideas. You are mistaken about that. I attest that Havona DOES take part in space respiration. Time and space are indeed separable in any mind, including yours and mine, not just Paradise level mind. Consider the following quote:

p135:04, 12:5.5 Relationships to time do not exist without motion in space, but consciousness of time does. Sequentiality can consciousize time even in the absence of motion. Man’s mind is less time-bound than space-bound because of the inherent nature of mind. Even during the days of the earth life in the flesh, though man’s mind is rigidly space-bound, the creative human imagination is comparatively time free. But time itself is not genetically a quality of mind.

emanny3003 wrote:  This wall of special materialization must bend the energy that approached it and shunts it around but not through Havona. Presumably, to the midspace zones where it is rendered free from the energies and forces of pervaded space and proceeds to un-pervaded space.

But energy is not space. Space is the womb in which energies and forces are contained. Bending energy and force around Havona does not necessarily mean that space will follow suit. Furthermore, the midspace zones are quiescent, which means inactive and dormant. Inactive means no motion; albeit, the author concedes that there must be some relative motion, but knows little or nothing about it (11:7.2). I’m sure they would mention that midspace respires and moves if such a thing actually occurred. Likewise, dormant means no force or energy. The midspace zone is where time transitions to eternity. (12:5.4) Nor is it stated that space is rendered free of energies and forces in the midspace zone. This transformation takes place in the transmuting regulation channels located just below nether Paradise where there is a confluence, or merging, of pervaded and unpervaded space. This cannot be quiescent midspace if it contains transmuting regulation channels of respiring space. Moreover, we know that all force-energy originates and returns to nether Paradise, not the midspace zone. (11:5.5; 11:5.9)

emanny3003 wrote:  In my opinion if you take away space you also take way time. What you have left is void. That infinite and eternal void we refer to as Paradise. Our ascension career is a process of shedding our space-time. I guess that one can consider Paradise as nothing in the sense of “no thing”. Thing are objects and objects are material in space-time. Space is nothing only to the human perception. But space is real, it even moves.

How do you figure that Paradise is a void? Void means completely empty. Paradise is not empty. Paradise is the place of origin for all forms of reality. Is reality a void? Is God a void? And, we don’t shed space-time during our ascension career, we incorporate and unify it with spirit. The synthesis of space-time experience by the power of a spirit dominated personality is what the Supreme is all about. Perhaps you mean that we shed our resistance to spirit gravity? Also, don’t forget that Paradise is the pattern for all material things. (0:5.5; 115:3.14; 130:4.2)
emanny3003Blocked
Oct 28, 2014, 5:24 PM

Bonita wrote:

emanny3003 wrote: . . . but space is a property of matter. And matter is controlled by gravity. Therefore, the space that is a part of matter must do what matter does and matter does what gravity tells it to do.

That doesn’t sound logical to me. It’s like saying that God is love therefore love is God, which is not true. In a contest between space and matter, space will win. Not being subject to gravity, space will follow its primary transit regardless of where it is or what other forces are present within it.

“Gravity is the sole control of energy-matter.” Matter contains space. Matter moves through space. Matter takes the space it contains with it as it moves through space. Space is a part of matter. Space is a property of the matter which contains it. Space is unresponsive to gravity and yet, it is a part of that matter which contains it, it moving along with the matter that is controlled by gravity. What is illogical about that?

Bonita wrote:

No, do not take what I said to be consistent with your ideas. You are mistaken about that. I attest that Havona DOES take part in space respiration. Time and space are indeed separable in any mind, including yours and mine, not just Paradise level mind. Consider the following quote:

So, you say that Havona does take part in space respiration. You agree that Havona is not a time creation, but it contains motion.

12:6.13 The Unqualified Absolute pervades all space.

This is a very clear declarative statement from TUB. What does TUB say about the presence and function of the Unqualified Absolute in Havona?

“The entire seven superuniverses participate in the two-billion-year cycles of space respiration along with the outer regions of the master universe.” (12:4.12)

No mention of Havona. Hmm? Why?

Bonita wrote:

But energy is not space. Space is the womb in which energies and forces are contained. Bending energy and force around Havona does not necessarily mean that space will follow suit.

What does this mean? Is not pervaded space the container of energy and forces as you say? If you empty a bottle of water from its container it is no longer filled with water. If you empty space from its energies and forces, is it still pervaded space?

Bonita wrote:

Furthermore, the midspace zones are quiescent, which means inactive and dormant. Inactive means no motion; albeit, the author concedes that there must be some relative motion, but knows little or nothing about it (11:7.2). I’m sure they would mention that midspace respires and moves if such a thing actually occurred.

12:5.4 The relatively motionless midspace zones impinging on Paradise and separating pervaded from unpervaded space are the transition zones from time to eternity, hence the necessity of Paradise pilgrims becoming unconscious during this transit when it is to culminate in Paradise 1citizenship. Time-conscious visitors can go to Paradise without thus sleeping, but they remain creatures of time.

‘Relatively’ motionless does not mean no motion. Outside Paradise there is absolutely nothing that is motionless.

Bonita wrote:

Likewise, dormant means no force or energy. The midspace zone is where time transitions to eternity. (12:5.4)

If there is even the least little bit of motion there must exist force and energy, excepting unpervaded space. Does Paradise move? No. Does paradise have force and energy? Yes

Bonita wrote:

This transformation takes place in the transmuting regulation channels located just below nether Paradise where there is a confluence, or merging, of pervaded and unpervaded space. This cannot be quiescent midspace if it contains transmuting regulation channels of respiring space. Moreover, we know that all force-energy originates and returns to nether Paradise, not the midspace zone. (11:5.5; 11:5.9)

12:5.4 The relatively motionless midspace zones impinging on Paradise and separating pervaded from unpervaded space are the transition zones from time to eternity…

What does the word impinging mean here? To me this means ‘touching’. Space,however, does not touch Paradise.
These transmuting regulating channels are located just below nether Paradise. The midspace zones separate pervaded space from unpervaded space and are also the transition zones from time to eternity.

Bonita wrote:

How do you figure that Paradise is a void? Void means completely empty. Paradise is not empty. Paradise is the place of origin for all forms of reality. Is reality a void? Is God a void?

You misunderstand my qualified definition of “void”. Paradise is not a finite object, it is not a time-space reality. It is a void of finite existence, a no-thing. It is not an object of motion as we define object. Paradise is of a singular materialization, Absolutum. This materialization is not objective for it is not definable. A material without space is of infinite density. It is of infinite potential. It has no parts and therefore does not move. Euclid defined a “point” as that which has no parts. God has no parts because He is all in all. Infinity can be fragmented but each fragment remains an infinity. Paradise is a pattern for material existence but material existence must have finite density, it must be projected in space-time. Out of this void we are are all projected in His image, literally.

After the Central Universe flashed into existence in the eternal past, God ‘breathed’ life into the clay of the time-space creations. God breaths eternal existence into his finite creation, but the eternal creation eventuated without breath, an act of space-time creation.

14:1.17 The intervening space which exists between these two circuits of gravity bodies is unique in that nothing like it is to be found elsewhere in all the wide universe. This zone is characterized by enormous wave movements of an up-and-down nature and is permeated by tremendous energy activities of an unknown order.

The “space” intervening between the gravity bodies enshrouding Havona is “unique” and is neither pervaded nor unpervaded space. I this space zone is to be found nowhere else in the Universe, what makes you think that the Central Universe can undergo space respiration as does pervaded and unpervaded space do? Do you think that this arrangement of unique materialization expands and contracts as does that superuniverses and outer space creations? Perhaps these dark gravity bodies make the central creation perfectly stable by encasing it in non oscillating space.

“Time-conscious visitors can go to Paradise without thus sleeping, but they remain creatures of time.” (12:5.4)

When we attain residential status on
Paradise, we become wards of eternity.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 31, 2014, 1:56 PM

emanny3003 wrote:  “Gravity is the sole control of energy-matter.” Matter contains space. Matter moves through space. Matter takes the space it contains with it as it moves through space. Space is a part of matter. Space is a property of the matter which contains it. Space is unresponsive to gravity and yet, it is a part of that matter which contains it, it moving along with the matter that is controlled by gravity. What is illogical about that?

It’s really the other way around. Space contains matter, and matter moves right through space. Why do you think matter has to take space with it? Do you have any proof? Can you measure the existence of space within an atom, label it and track it? How do you differentiate the space within the atom from the space outside the atom?

emanny3003 wrote:  So, you say that Havona does take part in space respiration. You agree that Havona is not a time creation, but it contains motion.

Exactly. Havona exists within space and space moves. The planets that make up the Havona system also move within space; they whirl around Paradise in a vast plane of concentric units. Of course there is motion in Havana. The only nonmoving place is Isle of Paradise. Everything else moves, including space. Midspace is something else altogether. The authors state theoretically that there must be relative motion there, but they do not, and cannot, confirm it. Midspace is the counterbalancing interval between pervaded and unpervaded space as well as that which encapsulates all of space. Technically, midspace is not space.

emanny3003 wrote:  12:6.13 The Unqualified Absolute pervades all space. This is a very clear declarative statement from TUB. What does TUB say about the presence and function of the Unqualified Absolute in Havona?

The UB says the Unqualified Absolute pervades the grand universe. The grand universe is made up of the central universe and the seven super universes.

0:11.8 Unqualified Absolute is a positive reality pervading the grand universe and, apparently, extending with equal space presence on out into the force activities and prematerial evolutions of the staggering stretches of the space regions beyond the seven superuniverses.

emanny3003 wrote:What does this mean? Is not pervaded space the container of energy and forces as you say? If you empty a bottle of water from its container it is no longer filled with water. If you empty space from its energies and forces, is it still pervaded space?

Unpervaded space is the vertical part of the maltese cross, it is a reservoir and is “. . . unpervaded by those forces, energies, powers, and presences known to exist in pervaded space.” (11:6.3) Havona is in the horizontal part of the maltese cross known as pervaded space which does contain all those forces, energies, powers and presences. So what’s your point exactly?

emanny3003 wrote: 14:1.17 The intervening space which exists between these two circuits of gravity bodies is unique in that nothing like it is to be found elsewhere in all the wide universe. This zone is characterized by enormous wave movements of an up-and-down nature and is permeated by tremendous energy activities of an unknown order. The “space” intervening between the gravity bodies enshrouding Havona is “unique” and is neither pervaded nor unpervaded space. I this space zone is to be found nowhere else in the Universe, what makes you think that the Central Universe can undergo space respiration as does pervaded and unpervaded space do? Do you think that this arrangement of unique materialization expands and contracts as does that superuniverses and outer space creations? Perhaps these dark gravity bodies make the central creation perfectly stable by encasing it in non oscillating space.

The quote is about the space within the two equal elliptical circuits of dark gravity bodies. The area between the two belts is the “unique space intrusion”. Why have you extrapolated that intrusion which is unique to the dark gravity belts to also include Havana? The quote does not say that at all. Furthermore, this “unique space intrusion” moves up and down manner and is permeated by energy. Permeated by energy means that it is pervaded space. Pervaded space participates in space respiration.
emanny3003Blocked
Oct 31, 2014, 9:41 PM

Bonita wrote:

It’s really the other way around. Space contains matter, and matter moves right through space. Why do you think matter has to take space with it? Do you have any proof? Can you measure the existence of space within an atom, label it and track it? How do you differentiate the space within the atom from the space outside the atom?

41:4.2 …Gaseous, liquid, and solid states are matters of atomic-molecular relationships, but density is a relationship of space and mass. Density varies directly with the quantity of mass in space and inversely with the amount of space in mass, the space… between the central cores of matter and the particles which whirl around these centers as well as the space within such material particles.…

118:3.5 Space comes the nearest of all nonabsolute things to being absolute. Space is apparently absolutely ultimate. The real difficulty we have in understanding space on the material level is due to the fact that, while material bodies exist in space, space also exists in these same material bodies. While there is much about space that is absolute, that does not mean that space is absolute.

118:3.6 It may help to an understanding of space relationships if you would conjecture that, relatively speaking, space is after all a property of all material bodies. Hence, when a body moves through space, it also takes all its properties with it, even the space which is in and of such a moving body.

I think this is clearly stated that material bodies contain space and that space contains material bodies.

Bonita wrote:

Exactly. Havona exists within space and space moves. The planets that make up the Havona system also move within space; they whirl around Paradise in a vast plane of concentric units. Of course there is motion in Havana. The only nonmoving place is Isle of Paradise. Everything else moves, including space. Midspace is something else altogether. The authors state theoretically that there must be relative motion there, but they do not, and cannot, confirm it. Midspace is the counterbalancing interval between pervaded and unpervaded space as well as that which encapsulates all of space. Technically, midspace is not space.

Certainly the spheres of Havona move as you have stated. But do have proof that the space of Havona actually moves like the motions of pervaded space? We have previously discussed that motion is not inherent in space. Do you have any proof that the space in Havona is the same space as pervaded space or are you just making an assumption? I agree that midspace is not space because space does not impinge on Paradise as does midspace. Midspace is a ‘functional extension’ of Paradise, but not a part of Paradise.

Bonita wrote:

emanny3003 wrote: 12:6.13 The Unqualified Absolute pervades all space. This is a very clear declarative statement from TUB. What does TUB say about the presence and function of the Unqualified Absolute in Havona?

The UB says the Unqualified Absolute pervades the grand universe. The grand universe is made up of the central universe and the seven super universes.

Do you know if TUB says that the Unqualified Absolute pervades the space of Havona? The statement above says that the Unqualified Absolute pervades ALL space. Does it then pervade unpervaded space or is this a contradiction or a failure to qualify the different types of space (ie, pervaded, unpervaded, the unique space of between the dark gravity bodies, perhaps a different space that contains Triata in Havona)

Bonita wrote:

Unpervaded space is the vertical part of the maltese cross, it is a reservoir and is “. . . unpervaded by those forces, energies, powers, and presences known to exist in pervaded space.” (11:6.3) Havona is in the horizontal part of the maltese cross known as pervaded space which does contain all those forces, energies, powers and presences. So what’s your point exactly?

My point relates to you previous assumption that space does not bend around the dark gravity bodies enshrouding Havona as does the energies and forces of pervaded space. You said that, “Bending energy and force around Havona does not necessarily mean that space will follow suit”. Are you saying that energies of pervaded space part ways as they are shunted around the dark gravity bodies?

Bonita wrote:

The quote is about the space within the two equal elliptical circuits of dark gravity bodies. The area between the two belts is the “unique space intrusion”. Why have you extrapolated that intrusion which is unique to the dark gravity belts to also include Havana? The quote does not say that at all. Furthermore, this “unique space intrusion” moves up and down manner and is permeated by energy. Permeated by energy means that it is pervaded space. Pervaded space participates in space respiration.

My point here with this quote is to show that there is a unique space here, not that this unique space is that of Havona.

14:2.2 The physical realities of Havona represent an order of energy organization radically different from any prevailing in the evolutionary universes of space. Havona energies are threefold; superuniverse units of energy-matter contain a twofold energy charge, although one form of energy exists in negative and positive phases. The creation of the central universe is threefold (Trinity); the creation of a local universe (directly) is twofold, by a Creator Son and a Creative Spirit.

Havona materialization is Triata. If pervaded space comes through Havona, there would be a mixing three-fold energies with the two-fold energies of the evolutionary universes of space. Do you really think this happens? Do you still think that havona space is the pervaded space of the evolutionary universes? Pervaded space is not empty. It has matter, lots of wandering ‘calcium dust’. Do you think that all of this energy-matter of pervaded space ‘contaminates’ Havana or is it somehow filtered out?
BonitaParticipant
Nov 4, 2014, 3:30 PM

emanny3003 wrote: I think this is clearly stated that material bodies contain space and that space contains material bodies.

Yes, I’ve read those quotes. That is not what I was referring to though. I asked if you had proof, scientific proof, that matter takes space with it when it moves. I’m asking if there have been any scientific studies done that differentiate the space within the atom from the space outside the atom. Have there been any studies that tag the space and track its movements? I haven’t read or heard of any such study, but I’m not up on the latest in that particular field of science. I was asking you if you knew of any scientific proof, not what it says in the UB. I already know what it says in the UB.

emanny3003 wrote:  Do you have any proof that the space in Havona is the same space as pervaded space or are you just making an assumption?

No scientific proof. I don’t think anyone alive on Earth has been to Havana lately doing scientific studies. All I have is the description of pervaded space given in the revelation. Horizontal pervaded space proceeds outward FROM Paradise (12:1.3). That means that it begins at or near Paradise. In the same sentence, 12:1.3, it says that the master universe exists in six concentric ellipses within that horizontal extension of pervaded space. Then they list each of these ellipses existing within pervaded space. The Central Universe, Havona, is the first one mentioned within the six concentric ellipses of the horizontal extension of pervaded space encircling the central Isle. (12:1.4). There is no mention at all about pervaded space being different in the six ellipses. The only place where space is different is between the two circulating rings of dark gravity bodies. But that space t is still pervaded space, it only behaves differently due to the presence of the dark bodies.

emanny3003 wrote:  Do you know if TUB says that the Unqualified Absolute pervades the space of Havona? The statement above says that the Unqualified Absolute pervades ALL space. Does it then pervade unpervaded space or is this a contradiction or a failure to qualify the different types of space (ie, pervaded, unpervaded, the unique space of between the dark gravity bodies, perhaps a different space that contains Triata in Havona)

Check out this quote:

0:11.8 Unqualified Absolute is a positive reality pervading the grand universe and, apparently, extending with equal space presence on out into the force activities and prematerial evolutions of the staggering stretches of the space regions beyond the seven superuniverses.

The above quote clearly states that the Unqualified Absolute pervades the grand universe, and the grand universe is pervaded space. Here are two definitions of the Grand Universe, both of which include Havona:

12:1.13 The Grand Universe is the present organized and inhabited creation. It consists of the seven superuniverses, with an aggregate evolutionary potential of around seven trillion inhabited planets, not to mention the eternal spheres of the central creation.

15:2.9 The Grand Universe. Seven superuniverses make up the present organized grand universe, consisting of approximately seven trillion inhabitable worlds plus the architectural spheres and the one billion inhabited spheres of Havona.

emanny3003 wrote:

My point relates to you previous assumption that space does not bend around the dark gravity bodies enshrouding Havona as does the energies and forces of pervaded space. You said that, “Bending energy and force around Havona does not necessarily mean that space will follow suit”. Are you saying that energies of pervaded space part ways as they are shunted around the dark gravity bodies?

There IS space between the two concentric rings of dark gravity bodies. The fact that this space zone behaves unlike any other space zone does not mean there is an absence of space there. We are told that space neutralizes gravity action, a sort of antigravity-type behavior, which apparently is unnecessary in this zone. The dark gravity bodies take alternate space paths, clockwise and counterclockwise. Between these two space paths is a semi-quiet zone of space intrusion which behaves differently. Intrusion means a forceful incursion or infringement, which means to me, that space is infiltrating this zone.

Where does this intrusion, incursion or infringement come from if not from the rest of space? And what makes its behavior different from the rest of space? Isn’t that the real question? Here’s were I begin to make theories: We know that the dark bodies neither reflect or absorb LIGHT energy; however, nothing is mentioned of other forms of energy, so we can say nothing about that. We also know that the gravity neutralizing effect of space functioning in the rest of pervaded space is probably unnecessary here due to the dark bodies which are capable, all on their own, of equalizing the lines of Havona gravity. Hence, this area of space is semi-quiet, which I theorize means that the potentials of space potency are in a “semi-quiet” state unlike anywhere else in the Grand Universe. That notwithstanding, it does not mean that space isn’t moving through this zone. It means that the behavior of space changes once it enters this zone due to the presence of the alternating paths and the enormous mass of the dark gravity bodies which seem to have their own gravity neutralizing effect.

emanny3003 wrote:  Havona materialization is Triata. If pervaded space comes through Havona, there would be a mixing three-fold energies with the two-fold energies of the evolutionary universes of space. Do you really think this happens? Do you still think that havona space is the pervaded space of the evolutionary universes? Pervaded space is not empty. It has matter, lots of wandering ‘calcium dust’. Do you think that all of this energy-matter of pervaded space ‘contaminates’ Havana or is it somehow filtered out?

It’s not me who thinks that Havona space is pervaded space. The UB clearly states that Havona is part of pervaded space, see quote 12:1.3-4. I don’t think it matters a hoot what stuff is contained within space or where it lies within space when it comes to space respiration, its primary motion. As I said before, when it comes to space respiration, the primary motion of space, I believe that this space motion is independent of the all the stuff that is within space. I don’t think that matter and energy follows space respiration up to Paradise, slams into the dark bodies and reroutes itself around Havona some how. It’s just space that is returning to nether Paradise, and space alone. Likewise, it is just space heading out from nether Paradise during the expansion phase of respiration, just space, and not necessarily all the stuff contained within it.
emanny3003Blocked
Nov 5, 2014, 1:15 AM

Bonita wrote:

I was asking you if you knew of any scientific proof, not what it says in the UB. I already know what it says in the UB.

Sorry, I misunderstood the question. Science knows of an expanding universe and, more recently, of expanding space. The Nobel Prize in 2010 was given to a couple of chaps that showed evidence of an accelerated expansion. We know that science has evidence that most of matter is ’empty space’ but this must be merely conjecture.

There is no ‘tagging of space’. To all of our instruments space is nothing. The first measurable unit of energy is the ultimaton. We can only measure rotating energy systems. Space is gravity unresponsive and, therefore, unmeasurable.

Bonita wrote:

The only place where space is different is between the two circulating rings of dark gravity bodies. But that space t is still pervaded space, it only behaves differently due to the presence of the dark bodies.

I disagree. The space between the dark gravity bodies is unique. This excludes comparison to any other space. Havona is unique and exclusive in every way conceivable from the superuniverses and outer space regions. The Havona day and Havona year are the same. This is based on the inner spheres of Havona where those sphere make one revolution around Paradise in about one thousand years. That means that these perfect spheres of Havona do not rotate. Their materialization are Triata. Motion is not inherent in space. I suspect that Triata contains no space because space is subabsolute and that would not be inconsistent with a perfect sphere of a perfect and eternal creation. They do not move except as they ‘revolve’ around Paradise.

Energies of pervaded space must be ‘filtered’ out in the transmuting channels around Paradise in order to become unpervaded.

Bonita wrote:

12:1.13 The Grand Universe is the present organized and inhabited creation. It consists of the seven superuniverses, with an aggregate evolutionary potential of around seven trillion inhabited planets, not to mention the eternal spheres of the central creation.

15:2.9 The Grand Universe. Seven superuniverses make up the present organized grand universe, consisting of approximately seven trillion inhabitable worlds plus the architectural spheres and the one billion inhabited spheres of Havona.

The fact that definition of The Grand Universe is inclusive of Havona takes no account of the exclusivity of Havona.

Bonita wrote:

0:11.8 Unqualified Absolute is a positive reality pervading the grand universe and, apparently, extending with equal space presence on out into the force activities and prematerial evolutions of the staggering stretches of the space regions beyond the seven superuniverses.

This does not answer my question as to whether the Unqualified Absolute functions in Havona IF in fact the space of Havona is the same pervaded space of the rest of the Grand Universe. What would be its function Havona.

Bonita wrote:

There IS space between the two concentric rings of dark gravity bodies. The fact that this space zone behaves unlike any other space zone does not mean there is an absence of space there.

I did not say that. I merely restated that TUB defined it as a space that was ‘unique’ in all the universe.

Bonita wrote:

Hence, this area of space is semi-quiet, which I theorize means that the potentials of space potency are in a “semi-quiet” state unlike anywhere else in the Grand Universe. That notwithstanding, it does not mean that space isn’t moving through this zone. It means that the behavior of space changes once it enters this zone due to the presence of the alternating paths and the enormous mass of the dark gravity bodies which seem to have their own gravity neutralizing effect.

I disagree. I think that Havona is essentially “hermetically sealed” off from the rest of creation. You cannot have an exclusive and perfect universe and have there be an intermingling of energies and their associated space forces of differing configurations altogether.

There is research on cloaking material called Metamaterials stated at Duke University. These material can shunt EM energies around then creating a cloaking effect. It reminded me of the dark gravity bodies.

12.1.3-4 Also says that the central universe is not a time creation. The remainder of concentric ellipses are indeed time creations. Pervaded space is associated with time. What this means to me is that Havona is exclusive of pervaded space. Nowhere in TUB does it state that havona expands and contracted relative to Paradise. These perfect spheres only revolve in single file procession on seven levels around Paradise in concentric ellipses.

Why would a Havona year be accounted for so precisely. If these Havona spheres moved towards and away from Paradise in space respirations then this year would be quite variable!

14:1.12 Besides Havona-circuit time, there is the Paradise-Havona standard day and other time designations which are determined on, and are sent out from, the seven Paradise satellites of the Infinite Spirit. The Paradise-Havona standard day is based on the length of time required for the planetary abodes of the first or inner Havona circuit to complete one revolution around the Isle of Paradise; and though their velocity is enormous, owing to their situation between the dark gravity bodies and gigantic Paradise, it requires almost one thousand years for these spheres to complete their circuit. You have unwittingly read the truth when your eyes rested on the statement “A day is as a thousand years with God, as but a watch in the night.” One Paradise-Havona day is just seven minutes, three and one-eighth seconds less than one thousand years of the present Urantia leap-year calendar.
BonitaParticipant
Nov 8, 2014, 6:11 PM

emanny3003 wrote: Space is gravity unresponsive and, therefore, unmeasurable.

So that’s my point! If you cannot measure the movements of space within matter, then there is no way to prove that space within matter moves with matter, as you say. This means that my theory that space moves independent of matter, and that includes the space within matter. Neither theory can be proven, not yours and not mine, which means you cannot randomly dismiss my theory as being ridiculous compared to your theory. They might both be wrong; we do not know.

emanny3003 wrote:I suspect that Triata contains no space because space is subabsolute and that would not be inconsistent with a perfect sphere of a perfect and eternal creation.

How can triata not contain space or not be located within space? How could triata constituted matter in the form of circulating discrete worlds remain discrete without intervening space? What is in-between these Havona circuits and Havona worlds if it is not space? And if this space is not pervaded, then what are triata energies and triata matter if not pervading substances within space?

emanny3003 wrote:

This does not answer my question as to whether the Unqualified Absolute functions in Havona IF in fact the space of Havona is the same pervaded space of the rest of the Grand Universe. What would be its function Havona.

The UB clearly states that the Unqualified Absolute is a universal presence that pervades ALL space and the ENTIRE grand universe (0:11.8; 11:7.4; 11:8.9; 12:6.13). That would include Havona since Havona is within the horizontal arm of pervaded space and part of the grand universe, which is also clearly stated in the UB. What is the function of the Unqualified Absolute in Havona? I think these next quotes explain it quite well, the Unqualified Absolute has to do with infinity potentials. Not all potentials have been actualized on Havona. Havona is only the revealed part of the First Source and Center; it is balanced by the yet unrevealed (104:3.13), making it only a partial manifestation.

0:11.1 When the combined thought of the Universal Father and the Eternal Son, functioning in the God of Action, constituted the creation of the divine and central universe, the Father followed the expression of his thought into the word of his Son and the act of their Conjoint Executive by differentiating his Havona presence from the potentials of infinity. And these undisclosed infinity potentials remain space concealed in the Unqualified Absolute and divinely enshrouded in the Deity Absolute, while these two become one in the functioning of the Universal Absolute, the unrevealed infinity-unity of the Paradise Father.

104:4.26 Paradise is the center of the force-energy activation of the cosmos – the universe position of the First Source and Center, the cosmic focal point of the Unqualified Absolute, and the source of all energy. Existentially present within this triunity is the energy potential of the cosmos-infinite, of which the grand universe and the master universe are only partial manifestations.

Moreover, the presence of the Unqualified Absolute is focalized in the outer zone of nether Paradise. This area is the central circuit point of emanations of the Unqualified Absolute which, “. . . proceed spaceward in every direction to the outermost borders of the seven super universes”(11:5.7). In order to proceed spaceward in every direction to the superuniverses, it must pass through the central universe of Havona. The quote says EVERY direction. To go in EVERY direction does NOT mean bypassing a certain direction such as through Havona.

.
emanny3003Blocked
Nov 8, 2014, 7:42 PM
118:3.6 It may help to an understanding of space relationships if you would conjecture that, relatively speaking, space is after all a property of all material bodies. Hence, when a body moves through space, it also takes all its properties with it, even the space which is in and of such a moving body.

Bonita wrote:

So that’s my point! If you cannot measure the movements of space within matter, then there is no way to prove that space within matter moves with matter, as you say. This means that my theory that space moves independent of matter, and that includes the space within matter.

Bonita, you are too clever. The way you twist my words around is quite masterful. What I have said, and continue to say, is no less and no more than quote 118:3.6. You asked me for proof and I gave you that specific quote. You then said that you knew what TUB says but asked me if there is “scientific proof” that matter contains space. I said that it was conjecture but no solid scientific proof. But are we not talking revelation when we hold up TUB as axiomatic?

Bonita wrote:

How can triata not contain space or not be located within space? How could triata constituted matter in the form of circulating discrete worlds remain discrete without intervening space?

I am not suggesting that Havona planets are not in space and moving in space but ‘wondering if’ triata materialization contains space as does the materialization of the remainder of the creations of time and space.

Bonita wrote:

The UB clearly states that the Unqualified Absolute is a universal presence that pervades ALL space and the ENTIRE grand universe (0:11.8; 11:7.4; 11:8.9; 12:6.13).

Since the Unqualified Absolute pervades ALL space, does it pervade unpervaded space? If it does, what is its function there? I cannot find any reference to that. OK, unpervaded space is not part of the grand universe, but it did say ‘ALL’ space. Just to make a point that the authors are not always a precise and as nit picky as some of us are about these things.

0:11.1 When the combined thought of the Universal Father and the Eternal Son, functioning in the God of Action, constituted the creation of the divine and central universe, the Father followed the expression of his thought into the word of his Son and the act of their Conjoint Executive by differentiating his Havona presence from the potentials of infinity. And these undisclosed infinity potentials remain space concealed in the Unqualified Absolute and divinely enshrouded in the Deity Absolute, while these two become one in the functioning of the Universal Absolute, the unrevealed infinity-unity of the Paradise Father.

What does the word ‘differentiating” mean to you in the above quote? The potentials of infinity are to be played out in the outstretches of the outer space levels. Havona is a completed creation.

“Havona is only the revealed part of the First Source and Center; it is balanced by the yet unrevealed (104:3.13), making it only a partial manifestation.”

Partially manifested does not mean incomplete. The central universe is perfectly balanced by the yet unrevealed. It is completed, we just do not know the details because it is only partially manifested, not partially completed.

Those quotes you provided say nothing of the functioning of the Unqualified Absolute in Havona. Just because the words ‘Havona’ and ‘Unqualified Absolute’ appear in the same paragraph does not relate them directly as to the presence and function of the Unqualified Absolute in the central universe.

Bonita wrote:

And if this space is not pervaded, then what are triata energies and triata matter if not pervading substances within space?

Havona space has different energies and different matter. Do you think Triata would be co-mingled with incoming different energy-matter from the superuniverses and beyond in the cycling of space respirations?

You keep dodging this one, Bonita. DOES HAVONA PARTICIPATE IN SPACE RESPIRATION CYCLES? Do you still say no even after acknowledging the following quote?

14:1.12 Besides Havona-circuit time, there is the Paradise-Havona standard day and other time designations which are determined on, and are sent out from, the seven Paradise satellites of the Infinite Spirit. The Paradise-Havona standard day is based on the length of time required for the planetary abodes of the first or inner Havona circuit to complete one revolution around the Isle of Paradise; and though their velocity is enormous, owing to their situation between the dark gravity bodies and gigantic Paradise, it requires almost one thousand years for these spheres to complete their circuit. You have unwittingly read the truth when your eyes rested on the statement “A day is as a thousand years with God, as but a watch in the night.” One Paradise-Havona day is just seven minutes, three and one-eighth seconds less than one thousand years of the present Urantia leap-year calendar.

TUB is very precise in its time description of a Paradise-Havona day. It is just seven minutes, three and one-eigth seconds and zero nanoseconds less than a thousand years of the present (c.1934) Urantia leap-year calendar.

This seems to me to be a fixed time period that would otherwise change if the Central Universe experienced space respirations. Don’t you think?
BonitaParticipant
Nov 8, 2014, 9:37 PM

emanny3003 wrote:

You then said that you knew what TUB says but asked me if there is “scientific proof” that matter contains space. I said that it was conjecture but no solid scientific proof. But are we not talking revelation when we hold up TUB as axiomatic?

Yes we are, but you have spouted mathematics and the physics of thermodynamics as proof that the universe only has a half a billion years to arrive at light and life due to something you called cosmic night. The point I’m trying to make is that you cannot use math or physics to understand these things. As you say, we are talking revelation here, not physics. I’m so glad you finally get that. As to quote 118:3.6, I split hairs over that to further illustrate my point. A body moving through space takes space with it, but is it always the same space? Is space still respiring through the traveling body? That information is not shared in the quote and I don’t think you can deduce an answer, nor can you find a mathematical formula or theory to prove it either way. The point being that, thermodynamics have nothing to do with determining the time frame for light and life and neither do cycles of space respiration. I never twisted your words. I may have twisted your mind, but not your words.

emanny3003 wrote:

I am not suggesting that Havona planets are not in space and moving in space but ‘wondering if’ triata materialization contains space as does the materialization of the remainder of the creations of time and space.

Why wouldn’t it? The way I understand it (and I’m not trying to say that my way is the only way), is that the forces and energies in triata physical bodies are perfectly equalized and stable, unlike dually constructed physical bodies which have ionized particles running amok colliding with one another, attracting, repelling, bombarding and doing all sorts of unorganized and untidy things. Moreover, the central universe also employs antigravity in its organization, which I believe is a function of space.

emanny3003 wrote:

Since the Unqualified Absolute pervades ALL space, does it pervade unpervaded space? If it does, what is its function there? I cannot find any reference to that. OK, unpervaded space is not part of the grand universe, but it did say ‘ALL’ space. Just to make a point that the authors are not always a precise and as nit picky as some of us are about these things.

Yeah, I agree. The authors force you to read the whole book and digest it. Even then we’re left wondering sometimes, and this is one of those times. As to your question about the Unqualified Absolute pervading unpervaded space, we are told that the Unqualified Absolute is a universal presence in 11:8.9. I’m taking universal to mean the entire Master Universe, but it could just mean the Grand Universe, or pervaded space (not easy to tell). In quote 11:7.4 it says that the space of the grand universe and ” . . . that of all outer regions is believed to be actually pervaded by the ancestral space potency of the Unqualified Absolute.” I’m interpreting that to mean more than just pervaded space, but also unpervaded space which would be the Master Universe as I understand it. Then finally, in 0:11.8 it sounds to me as though the “staggering stretches of space regions beyond the superuniverses” might be interpreted two ways as well. It could be referring only to outerspace, or it could be including the space reservoirs. Nevertheless, t seems to me that when they say ALL space, that they do mean both pervaded and unpervaded, otherwise, why use the word ALL?

emanny3003 wrote:

What does the word ‘differentiating” mean to you in the above quote? The potentials of infinity are to be played out in the outstretches of the outer space levels. Havona is a completed creation.

I think if differentiation did not take place then God would be unknowable and unable to be experienced. Havona is the pattern for experiential perfection. Without it, the rest of the grand universe couldn’t ever hope to attain perfection. Because it is the pattern, it means that it is complete and stable for this universe age. Once the Supreme Being fully evolves and all the superuniverses become stable and completed, then the patterns for the next age will have evolved due to the completion of that level of experience. So I think that once the potentials become actuals, more potentials need to be made available if it’s really infinity.

emanny3003 wrote:

Partially manifested does not mean incomplete. The central universe is perfectly balanced by the yet unrevealed. It is completed, we just do not know the details because it is only partially manifested, not partially completed.

Yeah, I agree. It is complete, but only for this universe age. In terms of infinity it is only partially manifested. But what is revealed or manifested at this time, IS perfect. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t more to manifest.

emanny3003 wrote:

Those quotes you provided say nothing of the functioning of the Unqualified Absolute in Havona. Just because the words ‘Havona’ and ‘Unqualified Absolute’ appear in the same paragraph does not relate them directly as to the presence and function of the Unqualified Absolute in the central universe.

Okay. I was taking for granted that you know what the function of the Unqualified Absolute is. It’s function is the same whether it is in Havona or outer space. Here’s the quote I use to explain Unqualified Absolute function:

105:3.7 The Unqualified Absolute. Static, reactive, and abeyant; the unrevealed cosmic infinity of the I AM; totality of nondeified reality and finality of all nonpersonal potential. Space limits the function of the Unqualified, but the presence of the Unqualified is without limit, infinite. There is a concept periphery to the master universe, but the presence of the Unqualified is limitless; even eternity cannot exhaust the boundless quiescence of this nondeity Absolute.

emanny3003 wrote:

You keep dodging this one, Bonita. DOES HAVONA PARTICIPATE IN SPACE RESPIRATION CYCLES? Do you still say no even after acknowledging the following quote?

You’re driving me crazy! I’ve answered this question several times but you seem to ignore my answer every time. You are the one who has been arguing against Havona’s participation in space respiration and I’ve been trying for weeks to get you to understand that it does. In post 10828 you said: “This is why I surmise that the Central Universe may not participate in space respirations.” I say Havona DOES participate in space respiration and have NEVER said otherwise.

And I’ve never dodged this question. In post 10779 I said that Havona is part of pervaded space and that all space, pervaded and unpervaded participate in space respiration. In post 10971 I wrote: “I attest that Havona DOES take part in space respiration.” You sound like a relatively young person, younger than me. You can’t be going senile just yet. I might be, but I don’t think you are. So, go back and read the entire thread to refresh your memory before you make me totally nuts.

emanny3003 wrote:

TUB is very precise in its time description of a Paradise-Havona day. It is just seven minutes, three and one-eigth seconds and zero nanoseconds less than a thousand years of the present (c.1934) Urantia leap-year calendar. This seems to me to be a fixed time period that would otherwise change if the Central Universe experienced space respirations. Don’t you think?

Time on Havona is arbitrary based upon the circuits’ orbit around the central and stationary Isle of Paradise, and has no relation at all to space respiration. Does space respiration alter time as reckoned on this planet? No. We’re not even aware of space respiration. I don’t think your point is relevant at all.
emanny3003Blocked
Nov 8, 2014, 11:06 PM

Bonita wrote:

Yes we are, but you have spouted mathematics and the physics of thermodynamics as proof that the universe only has a half a billion years to arrive at light and life due to something you called cosmic night.

I offered no proof, only conjecture for the sake of discussion. TUB offered a definition of density and it had to do with matter/mass and space. I only used that very definition to define our present space expansion as entropic, in keeping with the title of the topic stated by nelsong, “Entropy – who says!”. BTW, there are two papers, 41 and 42 that speak to these topics. You cannot divorce science from philosophy and religion.

Bonita wrote:

A body moving through space takes space with it, but is it always the same space? Is space still respiring through the traveling body?

The space of a material body is a property of that body, yes it is always the same space for as long as that material body exists, unless it sells its property is a yard sale. Space moves and unless told otherwise, the space that in a property of matter moves likewise in that matter.

Bonita wrote:

emanny3003 wrote:
I am not suggesting that Havona planets are not in space and moving in space but ‘wondering if’ triata materialization contains space as does the materialization of the remainder of the creations of time and space.

Why wouldn’t it?

It would not be consistent with my assertion that space as a property of dual energy organization moves. I agree that Triata materialization is equalized and stable. Thus my supposition that just maybe Havona material does not contain the property of non-absolute space and all of its motions.

Bonita wrote:

105:3.7 The Unqualified Absolute. Static, reactive, and abeyant; the unrevealed cosmic infinity of the I AM; totality of nondeified reality and finality of all nonpersonal potential. Space limits the function of the Unqualified, but the presence of the Unqualified is without limit, infinite. There is a concept periphery to the master universe, but the presence of the Unqualified is limitless; even eternity cannot exhaust the boundless quiescence of this nondeity Absolute.

This is your answer as to the function of the Unqualified Absolute. I can’t find any reference as to its function here in this quote, only that space limits its function. Function refers to what something actually does, and we are told it is unrevealed.

Bonita wrote:

emanny3003 wrote:
TUB is very precise in its time description of a Paradise-Havona day. It is just seven minutes, three and one-eigth seconds and zero nanoseconds less than a thousand years of the present (c.1934) Urantia leap-year calendar. This seems to me to be a fixed time period that would otherwise change if the Central Universe experienced space respirations. Don’t you think?

Time on Havona is arbitrary based upon the circuits’ orbit around the central and stationary Isle of Paradise, and has no relation at all to space respiration. Does space respiration alter time as reckoned on this planet? No. We’re not even aware of space respiration. I don’t think your point is relevant at all.

Time may be arbitrarily based on the Havona circuits but they do use time. Orbits take time, and their day and year are one and the same. That means that the perfect spheres of Havona do not rotate. This is clear. Their day-year is precise as to comparison to a specific Earth reference date. We do undergo space respirations and our year is affected by the change in the amount of space. The amount of space now is growing because it is coming from unpervaded space. Havona space is not increasing because their day-year is fixed. This is also clear and precludes changes in Havona space volume. If the volume of space does not change, Havona cannot have respiratory heaves. I cannot have density fluxuations. It cannot have growth and decay.

14:4.9 Decay and death are not a part of the cycle of life on the Havona worlds. In the central universe the lower living things undergo the transmutation of materialization. They do change form and manifestation, but they do not resolve by process of decay and cellular death.

Incidentally, I won’t state my age but I am a retired surgeon. I have had my differences with anesthesiologists in the past but I generally like them as a species. In fact, my son is an anesthesiologist and I love him very much.
BonitaParticipant
Nov 12, 2014, 4:15 PM

emanny3003 wrote: The space of a material body is a property of that body, yes it is always the same space for as long as that material body exists . . .

But I don’t see any concrete evidence that the space within a material body exists as long as the body exists. Are you telling me that the space within my cells is the same space I was born with? I can’t agree with that and the UB doesn’t spell that out definitively, so I don’t think either of us can be dogmatic on that point.

emanny3003 wrote: Thus my supposition that just maybe Havona material does not contain the property of non-absolute space and all of its motions.

I agree that you’ve made only a supposition, a supposition that Havona space is different from all other space; yet, we are told that only the zone between the dark gravity bodies contains space different from all other space. Why wouldn’t the authors mention Havona as part of that distinction? Furthermore, Havona is not absolute; it is subabsolute, or absonite. So why wouldn’t it also be filled with non-absolute space?

105:7.2 That which is transcendental is not necessarily nondevelopmental, but it is superevolutional in the finite sense; neither is it nonexperiential, but it is superexperience as such is meaningful to creatures. Perhaps the best illustration of such a paradox is the central universe of perfection: It is hardly absolute — only the Paradise Isle is truly absolute in the “materialized” sense. Neither is it a finite evolutionary creation as are the seven superuniverses. Havona is eternal but not changeless in the sense of being a universe of nongrowth. It is inhabited by creatures (Havona natives) who never were actually created, for they are eternally existent.Havona thus illustrates something which is not exactly finite nor yet absolute. Havona further acts as a buffer between absolute Paradise and finite creations, still further illustrating the function of transcendentals. But Havona itself is not a transcendental — it is Havona.

emanny3003 wrote: This is your answer as to the function of the Unqualified Absolute. I can’t find any reference as to its function here in this quote, only that space limits its function. Function refers to what something actually does, and we are told it is unrevealed.

Precisely! It is unrevealed. Therefore neither you nor I know what its function is in Havona . But the quote does tell us that the Unqualified Absolute’s presence is limitless, which means that there are no limits preventing it from being present in Havona, which is something I believe you were trying to deny. The Unqualified pervades all relative existence. Havona is an existence relative to Paradise and therefore pervaded by the Unqualified Absolute. Havona is not absolute; it is not at rest; and therefore, theoretically unfinished, which is why the Unqualified Absolute must be present.

105:3.4 The eternal Isle is absolutely at rest; all other organized and organizing energy is in eternal motion; in all space, only the presence of the Unqualified Absolute is quiescent, and the Unqualified is co-ordinate with Paradise. Paradise exists at the focus of space, the Unqualified pervades it, and all relative existence has its being within this domain.

emanny3003 wrote:  Havona space is not increasing because their day-year is fixed.

Yet nowhere does it say that the Havona day-year is fixed, at least I can’t find anything to support that claim. Time cannot be fixed, it is always relative. Havona time is relative to Paradise, which is motionless, or fixed.

130:7.4 The motion of time is only revealed in relation to something which does not move in space as a time phenomenon.

They say that Paradise-Havona time is arbitrarily recognized, but they do not say it is fixed.  And when they say that the entire grand universe cannot utilize Paradise-Havona as an absolute standard because of the TOTALITY of space respiration, they are not excluding the space respiration of the Central Universe as part of that TOTALITY.

Actually, there is more than one time standard on Havona. There is the Havona-circuit time and “. . . other time designations which are determined on, and are sent out from, the seven Paradise satellites of the Infinite Spirit.”(14:1.12) Although they recognize that the length of time for the inner Havona circuit to complete one revolution around Paradise is just seven minutes, three and 1/8th seconds less that 1000 years of our time, they do not say that this is a fixed time. It is merely a statement of what that time represented when the text was written.

emanny3003 wrote:This is also clear and precludes changes in Havona space volume. If the volume of space does not change, Havona cannot have respiratory heaves. I cannot have density fluxuations. It cannot have growth and decay.

You’ve based your assumption concerning the volume of space upon something that cannot exist – fixed time. You’ve also linked growth and decay to space volume, something that I find no evidence of being factual. The total volume of space is finite. When one area expands another area contracts but it does not necessarily affect density. Density is a dimensionless ratio. When space expands and contracts it does not change the ratio. Therefore, expansion does not equal growth and contraction does not equal decay of matter. I don’t know where you get that idea from. Do you think that space is squeezed out of matter during the contraction phase of space respiration? I’m not following that. I’m quite sure that the same amount of space will be within any given piece of matter regardless of space respiration.

As I said, I believe that space can move through matter since it is unresponsive to gravity. I do not think that the movement of space changes the ratios between space and mass making up any individual body. If those ratios changed with space respiration wouldn’t each of us be expanding right now along with space? But then again, if we do expand, that would explain why I no longer fit into some of my jeans. I used to blame that on the dryer . . . . hmmm . . . but I digress.

emanny3003 wrote:  Incidentally, I won’t state my age but I am a retired surgeon. I have had my differences with anesthesiologists in the past but I generally like them as a species. In fact, my son is an anesthesiologist and I love him very much.

So you love your son despite the fact that he is an anesthesiologist, huh? I generally did not have differences with the species surgeon. There was only one horribly vile, arrogant and chauvinistic chief of trauma surgery who constantly badgered me, mostly because he wanted to be in charge of the OR because he thought he was in charge of everything. He was fired. Boohoo.

Reply on the current forum