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Adjutant Mind-Spirits

149 posts · 9 participants · started Sep 15, 2014, 4:50 PM

BonitaParticipant
Sep 29, 2014, 3:27 PM

MidiChlorian wrote:  You are correct in suggesting that the soul is not dormant, but the soul is in essence a sleep, such like a persons subconscious.

The soul cannot be asleep. If the soul were asleep, it would be in a stagnant state which is the same as a dying soul.(133:6.5) The soul is part of an ever changing relationship and if the change should stop, the relationship would stop and the soul would cease to exist.(112:0.15) The moment the soul is born, it continues to grow, in and of itself. (117:3.6) The soul is a self-perpetuating relationship, alive and progressing. The only rest a soul needs is worship, a form of restful spiritual exertion. (143:7.7) The fact that, for the most part, people are not conscious of their souls, and the fact that the soul is not conscious of the mortal mind (111:3.4), has nothing at all to do with sleeping. It has to do circle progression. All of this changes as the personality ascends the circles and becomes more real, and likewise, more aware of reality.

MidiChlorian wrote:  Where a person’s various consciousness and self awareness and in association with the Thought Adjuster upon their first moral choice, indicates that this person has human potential.

The first moral choice is not made in association with the Adjuster. The first moral choice is made in association with the 6th and 7th adjutant mind-spirits. Morality is a superanimal phenomenon, which makes it altogether human. (5:5.1; 12:5.10; 196:3.25) Such a decision indicates to the universe that the individual personality has chosen to be guided by the spirits of worship and wisdom. And when this happens, the universe responds with additional ministries to assist that personality in its worship and wisdom craving: the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth and the Thought Adjuster. (65:7.7; 92:0.4; 110:6.13)

MidiChlorian wrote:  Even though the arrival of the Thought Adjuster “occasion of the birth of the soul”, it does not indicate that a soul did not exist prior to this first moral decision, it just means that without this first moral decision, the soul is without potential to evolve, but still a soul and somewhat acting on animal instincts.

No Midi, you are very much mistaken. The soul does not exist prior to the first moral decision. But there is pre-existent potential for the creation of a soul in any personality in contact with the 6th adjutant mind-spirit who is preparing to make that decision; and once made, is evidence of contact with the 7th adjutant. (62:6.5) This indicates that the way has been prepared by the adjutants for the coming of the Holy Spirit to that free-will deciding, worship craving and wisdom desiring mind. (36:5.16) The supra-adjutant presence of the Holy Spirit then makes it possible for the mind to also receive the Spirit of Truth and the Thought Adjuster. (34:5.4; 110:6.13)

There are three antecedent requirements for the creation of a soul: a human mind influenced by the higher mind adjutants; a divine spirit, the Adjuster; and a relationship between the human mind and the divine spirit. (111:2.4-7)The relationship IS the soul and there cannot be a soul without both human mind and spirit mind relating to one another, and this takes place within the soul. The first moral decision is the signal to the universe that the personality wants to begin the relationship, and that is when the soul is born.

If it the soul pre-exists, as you claim, then it exists without the contribution of the human mind and without the free-will desire of the personality. This is not possible because the soul is a relationship and it cannot exist without both parties. The relationship also requires personality experience, experience with human mind making decisions in line with the will of God. Pre-existence would deny the existence of the relationship, the value of free-will choice and the importance of personality experience in the evolution of the Supreme.

A soul is a joint creation from two substances: material and spiritual. If what you are saying is true concerning pre-existence, then there would have to be some kind of inert morontia soul substance pre-created, hanging around waiting to be activated by a decision. A pre-created soul would deny the personality an opportunity for cocreation of its divine nature. Therefore, if the soul pre-exists, it must have a pre-existent creator other than the individual personality which defeats its whole purpose.

Think about it. If the soul is unique to the personality’s experience, then if what you say is true, the personality would have to come already equipped with its own unique empty morontia soul sack just waiting to be filled with the experience of decision-making. Yet we are told that the soul is entirely NEW, ORIGINAL and UNIQUE. (111:2.3) I’m quite certain that a brand new morontia reality (0:5.10; 111:2.3; 111:2.10) couldn’t possibly come ready-made. If so, it wouldn’t be NEW. The creation of a soul depends on individual, original and unique personality experience using free will. What you’re suggesting is that the PRE-existing soul has had PRE-experience with PRE-will, then just sits around waiting for another experience of moral decision-making to spring it to life as part of some remembrance ritual, or gnosis, of a PRE-existent life. That’s just a bunch of piffle! utter ordure! and totally inconsistent with the revelation.

MidiChlorian wrote:  With the onset of that moral decision, this person’s attention now has evolved from the selfish self-consciousness and recognized that they have will, whereby they recognize that others have will as well.

The awareness of otherness is a built-in feature of personality (16:8.6; 16:9.7; 102:4.3). It is the denial of self-will in favor of other-than-self will that makes a decision unselfish. And an unselfish decision is a religious experience, religious because it has to do with soul growth. (103:2.8) The mere presence of personality is sufficient for the recognition of other personalities as well as recognizing one’s own will as it interacts with the will of others. Volition and personality are inseparable. (5:6.4: 16:8.5; 54:2.3; 118:7.7) When personality is bestowed upon evolutionary material creatures, it causes spirit to strive for the mastery of energy-matter through the mediation of mind. (12:8.14; 112:0.6; 116:6.1; 117:3.2), and it does this through the function of volition. Personality responds directly to other personality presence and is characterized by morality-awareness of the relativity of relationships with other persons. Personality innately discerns conduct levels within these relationships and choosingly discriminates between them. (112:0.11) But this is another topic altogether.
AnonymousInactive
Sep 29, 2014, 3:45 PM

Bonita wrote:

MidiChlorian wrote:

In other words, would nothing have changed since your original thoughts, which would modify them in any way,

NO. The soul does not pre-exist. It is the Adjuster who pre-exists. The soul is born right here on earth with the first moral decision around age 5. Prior to that point in time and space, it does not exist. The soul is not lying around dormant somewhere waiting to be activated, as you suggest.

There is a subtle inference that the Thought Adjuster is a pattern of a sleeping survivor, who may have been absorbed into the Supreme Deity, and reworked as part of the Thought Adjuster, although not a soul but a pattern of a soul, where:

(63.5)5:1.7 Man is spiritually indwelt by a surviving Thought Adjuster. If such a human mind is sincerely and spiritually motivated, if such a human soul desires to know God and become like him, honestly wants to do the Father’s will, there exists no negative influence of mortal deprivation nor positive power of possible interference which can prevent such a divinely motivated soul from securely ascending to the portals of Paradise.

The birth of the soul, is the activation of the person’s first moral action, whereby the adjuster appears, but this action is significant in that the Thought Adjuster chooses the person, based on this action, something like a matching identifier pattern, which associates the two patterns as being compatible to a personality, where it is the personality which is being constructed. So in essence it is the birth of a personality, which consists of body, mind, spirit and soul.

(8.6)0:5.6 These qualities of universal reality are manifest in Urantian human experience on the following levels:

(8.7)0:5.7 1. Body. The material or physical organism of man. The living electrochemical mechanism of animal nature and origin.

(8.8)0:5.8 2. Mind. The thinking, perceiving, and feeling mechanism of the human organism. The total conscious and unconscious experience. The intelligence associated with the emotional life reaching upward through worship and wisdom to the spirit level.

(8.9)0:5.9 3. Spirit. The divine spirit that indwells the mind of man — the Thought Adjuster. This immortal spirit is prepersonal — not a personality, though destined to become a part of the personality of the surviving mortal creature.

(8.10)0:5.10 4. Soul. The soul of man is an experiential acquirement. As a mortal creature chooses to “do the will of the Father in heaven,” so the indwelling spirit becomes the father of a new reality in human experience. The mortal and material mind is the mother of this same emerging reality. The substance of this new reality is neither material nor spiritual — it is morontial. This is the emerging and immortal soul which is destined to survive mortal death and begin the Paradise ascension.

(9.1)0:5.11 Personality. The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul. Personality is the one changeless reality in an otherwise ever-changing creature experience; and it unifies all other associated factors of individuality. The personality is the unique bestowal which the Universal Father makes upon the living and associated energies of matter, mind, and spirit, and which survives with the survival of the morontial soul.

(9.2)0:5.12Morontia is a term designating a vast level intervening between the material and the spiritual. It may designate personal or impersonal realities, living or nonliving energies. The warp of morontia is spiritual; its woof is physical.

So, the soul is just a pattern piece, which is being reconstructed from the collection of eternal pattern pieces retained by the Supreme, an ingredient, like the breath of life, for the re-personalization of the sleeping survivor. Although the body may be different, thereby not being associated to reincarnation, but it is the personality, a unique person, being created, from previous personal patterns.
BonitaParticipant
Sep 29, 2014, 4:43 PM

MidiChlorian wrote:  There is a subtle inference that the Thought Adjuster is a pattern of a sleeping survivor, who may have been absorbed into the Supreme Deity, and reworked as part of the Thought Adjuster, although not a soul but a pattern of a soul . . .

Midi, I’m not talking about dead people waiting to be resurrected on the mansion worlds. I’m talking about live people here on earth. But even so, what you’re saying is not supported anywhere within the revelation. Once a personality is absorbed into the Supreme, it no longer exists as a reality. And more importantly, NEVER again can it appear as a personality because its identity becomes as though it NEVER existed at all. (2:3.4) The use of the word NEVER means that the personality cannot be “reworked” as a part of anything.

The Thought Adjuster is not a pattern. The Thought Adjuster is an actual fragment of the pre-personality of the Father, a pre-Trinity endowment of the First Source and Center. (2:7.7; 5:2.4; 30:1.99; 32:4.5; 56:3.5; 107:0.3; 107:4.1; 112:5.2; 117:3.9) This means that the Adjuster pre-exists, NOT the soul. The Adjusters bring with them the plans for model careers and the ideal lives. They bring these plans with them, but they themselves are not the plans, or patterns, as you suggest.

MidiChlorian wrote:  The birth of the soul, is the activation of the person’s first moral action . . .

You have it completely backwards. The action of the first moral decision results in the birth of the soul. The soul is not activated or reactivated. It is not a machine. It is born as an entirely new, unique and original morontia reality.

MidiChlorian wrote:  So in essence it is the birth of a personality, which consists of body, mind, spirit and soul.

The first moral decision of the personality marks entry into the 7th psychic circle. This results in universe RECOGNITION of the potential cosmic citizenship of the concerned personality. It marks the beginning of TRUE personality function because it has chosen an opportunity to do God’s will, and this is evidence that it has the capacity to attain SPIRITUAL individuality, sonship. The first moral decision, the choice to perfect oneself, makes the personality an OBSERVABLE, active and functional reality in the eyes of the universe. (5:6.6; 108:2.1; 110:6.1; 110:6.13; )

Personality does not consist of body, mind, spirit and soul. Personality is none of those things. Personality is the unifier of those aspects of selfhood because it has the ability to choose. (9:4.6; 56:10.15; 112:1.18; 112:1.19)

0:5.11  The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul.
BradlyParticipant
Sep 29, 2014, 6:28 PM
On this issue, the UB could not be simpler, plainer, clearer, or more redundant from front to back:

1. The Mind Arena of Choice

(1216.2) 111:1.1 Though the work of Adjusters is spiritual in nature, they must, perforce, do all their work upon an intellectual foundation. Mind is the human soil from which the spirit Monitor must evolve the morontia soul with the co-operation of the indwelt personality.

(1216.3) 111:1.2 There is a cosmic unity in the several mind levels of the universe of universes. Intellectual selves have their origin in the cosmic mind much as nebulae take origin in the cosmic energies of universe space. On the human (hence personal) level of intellectual selves the potential of spirit evolution becomes dominant, with the assent of the mortal mind, because of the spiritual endowments of the human personality together with the creative presence of an entity-point of absolute value in such human selves. But such a spirit dominance of the material mind is conditioned upon two experiences: This mind must have evolved up through the ministry of the seven adjutant mind-spirits, and the material (personal) self must choose to co-operate with the indwelling Adjuster in creating and fostering the morontia self, the evolutionary and potentially immortal soul.

(1186.8) 108:2.1 Though the Adjusters volunteer for service as soon as the personality forecasts have been relayed to Divinington, they are not actually assigned until the human subjects make their first moral personality decision. The first moral choice of the human child is automatically indicated in the seventh mind-adjutant and registers instantly, by way of the local universe Creative Spirit, over the universal mind-gravity circuit of the Conjoint Actor in the presence of the Master Spirit of superuniverse jurisdiction, who forthwith dispatches this intelligence to Divinington. Adjusters reach their human subjects on Urantia, on the average, just prior to the sixth birthday. In the present generation it is running five years, ten months, and four days; that is, on the 2,134th day of terrestrial life.

(1187.1) 108:2.2 The Adjusters cannot invade the mortal mind until it has been duly prepared by the indwelling ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits and encircuited in the Holy Spirit. And it requires the co-ordinate function of all seven adjutants to thus qualify the human mind for the reception of an Adjuster. Creature mind must exhibit the worship outreach and indicate wisdom function by exhibiting the ability to choose between the emerging values of good and evil — moral choice.

(1187.2) 108:2.3 Thus is the stage of the human mind set for the reception of Adjusters, but as a general rule they do not immediately appear to indwell such minds except on those worlds where the Spirit of Truth is functioning as a spiritual co-ordinator of these different spirit ministries. If this spirit of the bestowal Sons is present, the Adjusters unfailingly come the instant the seventh adjutant mind-spirit begins to function and signalizes to the Universe Mother Spirit that it has achieved in potential the co-ordination of the associated six adjutants of prior ministry to such a mortal intellect. Therefore have the divine Adjusters been universally bestowed upon all normal minds of moral status on Urantia ever since the day of Pentecost.

(1187.3) 108:2.4 Even with a Spirit of Truth endowed mind, the Adjusters cannot arbitrarily invade the mortal intellect prior to the appearance of moral decision. But when such a moral decision has been made, this spirit helper assumes jurisdiction direct from Divinington. There are no intermediaries or other intervening authorities or powers functioning between the divine Adjusters and their human subjects; God and man are directly related.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Sep 29, 2014, 6:39 PM
Thanks Brad.

It’s been really bugging me the past few days that none of the so-called readers and proponents of this revelation are coming forward to argue against the pre-existence of the soul. What is wrong with people? Don’t they understand that the explanation and description of the soul and its purpose in the cosmos is one of the biggest revelations since the days that Jesus walked the earth? Where are all of you people? Hiding? From what?

It’s discouraging.
Nigel NunnParticipant
Sep 29, 2014, 7:03 PM
Bonita wrote:

[B]: “The soul is not activated or reactivated. It is not a machine. It is born as an entirely new, unique and original morontia reality.”

[B]: “The first moral decision, the choice to perfect oneself, makes the personality an OBSERVABLE, active and functional reality in the eyes of the universe.”

[B]: “Personality does not consist of body, mind, spirit and soul. Personality is none of those things. Personality is the unifier of those aspects of selfhood because it has the ability to choose.”

From the Foreword:

(0:5.11) The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul.

* * *

Bonita, thanks for insisting on this. To those engaged with traditional mystic notions, this idea of building from scratch something “new, unique and original” must seem unfamiliar, even surprising. Much easier to believe in black and white: a worm-like shell suffering illusion suddenly revealed as perfect pristine spirit. But we should note that in revealing the nature and purpose of the soul, the UB authors do redefine a traditional term (“soul”). For communication to occur, discussion of such things requires an extra mile or two, for sorting out such terms.

Regarding “making the personality an OBSERVABLE”, for those citizens of Paradise observing the nontime sequence of our personalization of an Adjuster fragment of the uncaused cause of their Paradise existence, such observations must cause a cheer every time this outlandish scheme succeeds (Yay!!)

PS: Regarding my alleged “re-naming of the adjutants”, was this a simple misreading on your part, or do you enjoy hacking at straw men of your own design

Nigel
BradlyParticipant
Sep 29, 2014, 8:15 PM
Bonita wrote:

Thanks Brad. It’s been really bugging me the past few days that none of the so-called readers and proponents of this revelation are coming forward to argue against the pre-existence of the soul. What is wrong with people? Don’t they understand that the explanation and description of the soul and its purpose in the cosmos is one of the biggest revelations since the days that Jesus walked the earth? Where are all of you people? Hiding? From what?

It’s discouraging.

Be not discouraged good sister. Consider the challenge as a “devil’s advocate” (a quaint phrase) or a recital of very common misconceptions that many students bring to the UB. Preexistence, as Nigel says, is a common belief, if primitive held by many. So, your pointed, patient, and persistent refutation of such falsehood can hardly be construed as anything other than an important lesson with much text offered to clarify such confusions and reduce such errors. The circular repetition of falsehood may be frustrating to the teacher (and fellow students) but it has provided so many different aspects for the text to illuminate the falsehoods presented by so many tangents of approach….none of which have gained any traction or made any progress. But I would reiterate the value and benefit of such discourse. You need not convince any to be correct nor helpful…especially for those students still to come to this fountain of knowledge and experience. Courage and patience Bonita. You shine!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Sep 29, 2014, 8:24 PM

Nigel Nunn wrote:

PS: Regarding my alleged “re-naming of the adjutants”, was this a simple misreading on your part, or do you enjoy hacking at straw men of your own design

Regardless of what you meant, I don’t think the adjutants are the 7 psychosomatic interfaces, nor do I think that the human brain has 7 psychosomatic inherited interfaces with which they interact. It’s far too simplistic and the human nervous system, as we all know, is not that cut and dry. I think your idea is a neat and tidy way to make diagrams and possible connections to chakras, but I don’t think it’s reality. Just my opinion though, an opinion of my own design which I do enjoy hacking around with. (Said tongue-in-cheek).

But pray tell . . . do explain further what you meant by the 7 psychosomatic interfaces, because I have no idea what they are and I’ve been studying neuroanatomy for 39 years now. I don’t mean to sound like a smart-ass, but if these 7 psychosomatic interfaces are our “default, innate, inherited tendencies of response to adjutant motivation”, what are they talking about when they say that there are 24 basic orders of inherited psychic organization?

Nigel Nunn wrote:

But we should note that in revealing the nature and purpose of the soul, the UB authors do redefine a traditional term (“soul”).

I’m not sure they do redefine it. They make it clear right at the beginning of Paper 111 that many ancient people actually got the idea of the soul correct. That being said . . . gnosticism has done a great deal to confuse people on this issue. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this revelation appeared around the time of the resurfacing of gnostic texts once buried away in the sands of time.
BonitaParticipant
Sep 29, 2014, 8:31 PM

Bradly wrote:

Courage and patience Bonita. You shine!

Thanks Brad. BUT WHY AM I ALL ALONE IN THIS ENDEAVOR? (yes I’m shouting) Where are all the UB readers who know in their heart that pre-existence of the soul is nonsense? Don’t any of them have something to say on the subject? You know, I have other things to do too. Surely I’m not the only one who can type.
BradlyParticipant
Sep 29, 2014, 8:45 PM
Bonita wrote:

Thanks Brad. BUT WHY AM I ALL ALONE IN THIS ENDEAVOR? (yes I’m shouting) Where are all the UB readers who know in their heart that pre-existence of the soul is nonsense? Don’t any of them have something to say on the subject?

Well….can’t say for sure. I have been not silent but reluctant….your responses are so on point and clear and consistent that I did not want to muddy the waters of response or reduce clarity. And I haven’t had the time or patience personally to respond to each nuance of error presented. You have a sharp mind and wit and clearly understand the words written in the Revelation. I have truly enjoyed the “class” on pre-existence (and have answered many such claims on other forums…but not nearly so well!).

So….back to the Adjutants….once again. Detours and diversions enjoyed by me….but so much to learn that is more central to the topic at hand. Thanks all.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
AnonymousInactive
Sep 29, 2014, 11:04 PM

Bonita wrote:

They make it clear right at the beginning of Paper 111 that many ancient people actually got the idea of the soul correct.

I’m not sure of what you are referring too, where in the preface to PAPER 111 (111:0.*) it mentions or gives many examples. Are you indicating that this section and these “ancient peoples” did not believe in the pre-existence of the “soul”?

But if the soul is immortal, rather than mortal, would it not have pre-existed prior to it birth? Does not a fetus exist before birth, thereby at birth, become separated from its mother and become independent life. Therefore, an embryonic soul, is pre-existent-soul waiting for birth.

Then if the human mind can be associated with a or the soul, then would the following quote not indicate that something does not spring into existence from nothing, that there is a method and that even “Mind can be derived only from pre-existent mind.” And that these components are made through “the activating living spark.”

(403.7) 36:6.2 Things material may enjoy an independent existence, but life springs only from life. Mind can be derived only from pre-existent mind. Spirit takes origin only from spirit ancestors. The creature may produce the forms of life, but only a creator personality or a creative force can supply the activating living spark.

But also, I’m not sure as to your use of the following statement:

Bonita wrote:

That being said . . . gnosticism has done a great deal to confuse people on this issue. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this revelation appeared around the time of the resurfacing of gnostic texts once buried away in the sands of time.

Where there’s that dirty word again, “gnosticism”, and that you say that these doctrine “confuse people” regarding what “issue”? Are you referring back to Paper 111?

Then there is that which follows where I assume that you are referring to the Nag Hammadi Library, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, but the first three books of the UB came along far before these, and where the publication would seem to have been delayed on the reception of the Jesus Papers, and even still those codex’s which were uncovered where not made available until long after. So, are you implying that the Urantia Book was published on account of the finding of these archives, to discredit them in some way? I can understand that Gnosticism may confuse you but there is substantial information presented therein, but keep in mind that the discovery of these libraries and scrolls were not the only text available, where many were released from the Vatican Library, in the late nineteenth century, and some later. I don’t see a problem with any text, as long as it is used to study other documents or doctrine to compare context.
BradlyParticipant
Sep 30, 2014, 12:55 PM

MidiChlorian wrote:

I’m not sure of what you are referring too, where in the preface to PAPER 111 (111:0.*) it mentions or gives many examples. Are you indicating that this section and these “ancient peoples” did not believe in the pre-existence of the “soul”? But if the soul is immortal, rather than mortal, would it not have pre-existed prior to it birth? Does not a fetus exist before birth, thereby at birth, become separated from its mother and become independent life. Therefore, an embryonic soul, is pre-existent-soul waiting for birth.

Me here: The soul is not immortal Midi – only potentially so. Which further refutes your claim of its pre-existence. If it were pre-existent it would not be personal – unless you also claim reincarnation(?). There is hardly any point in arguing the matter…the UB is very clear in many ways about this topic, so we must conclude that you simply disagree with that clarity of the UB’s clearly written position and cling to your own cosmic construct. That’s okay; but if you claim that any form of soul pre-existence is stipulated or articulated in text, please post those quotes for our education. The principal function of the universes appears to be the plan of mortal ascension and each mortal is a unique presentation of the gifts of mind, personality, and free will to provide for the birth of the individual soul for the collection and unification of experiential and survivable values chosen by the individual by the circuitry of spirit ministry. For the soul to become immortal (again it is only potentially so upon its birth) it must fuse with an Adjuster or Father Fragment. So, if one believes in fusion, then from whence comes a supposed immortal soul for all the mortals born in all the worlds of time and space?

Regarding the ancients and soul:

(1215.2) 111:0.2 The concept of a soul and of an indwelling spirit is not new to Urantia; it has frequently appeared in the various systems of planetary beliefs. Many of the Oriental as well as some of the Occidental faiths have perceived that man is divine in heritage as well as human in inheritance. The feeling of the inner presence in addition to the external omnipresence of Deity has long formed a part of many Urantian religions. Men have long believed that there is something growing within the human nature, something vital that is destined to endure beyond the short span of temporal life.

(1215.3) 111:0.3 Before man realized that his evolving soul was fathered by a divine spirit, it was thought to reside in different physical organs — the eye, liver, kidney, heart, and later, the brain. The savage associated the soul with blood, breath, shadows and with reflections of the self in water.

(1215.4) 111:0.4 In the conception of the atman the Hindu teachers really approximated an appreciation of the nature and presence of the Adjuster, but they failed to distinguish the copresence of the evolving and potentially immortal soul. The Chinese, however, recognized two aspects of a human being, the yang and the yin, the soul and the spirit. The Egyptians and many African tribes also believed in two factors, the ka and the ba; the soul was not usually believed to be pre-existent, only the spirit.

It should not be surprising that the more ancient peoples still had more truth in the teachings of Dalmatia and the Garden and many of those teachings became degenerated and distorted over time by the oral traditions required to sustain them. Many of those examples are also articulated in the UB to demonstrate legends, fables, and scriptures that originated from facts taught long, long ago.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
AnonymousInactive
Sep 30, 2014, 2:31 PM

Bradly wrote:

The soul is not immortal Midi – only potentially so.

“So”, So what, are you saying here, that the UB is stating lies, where “immortal soul” is listed 53 time. If you would actually study the book instead of posting imbedded deceptive opinion, which may or may not be of your on volition, you might see that the pen is mightier than the double edged sword of a forked tongue.

Yet you take on to answer questions addressed to others and still do not answer them but through innuendo by implying that all other interpretations are false but one, based on literal segmented statement, where context is overshadowed by the individual word contained within. So, it would seem that a disseminating debate is not such but an argument of who is right and wrong, thereby no longer a debate but a pulpit.

Bradly wrote:

It should not be surprising that the more ancient peoples still had more truth in the teachings of Dalmatia and the Garden and many of those teachings became degenerated and distorted over time by the oral traditions required to sustain them. Many of those examples are also articulated in the UB to demonstrate legends, fables, and scriptures that originated from facts taught long, long ago.

If you actually made sense of your natation above, and read some of what you wrote, and applied it to actually reading some of the authors of the so called ancients mentioned in the UB, whereby being able to present substance other than conjecture, I might regard the narration above as valid, but I can only compare, that which is in my library, and what has passed through and over the visual page read. Then would there be some meeting of the mind’s and not as understood as “legends, fables, and scriptures that originated from facts”, where I await the fact you propose here, if you can?
BradlyParticipant
Sep 30, 2014, 4:44 PM
I have never and would not ever claim the UB contains lies or even inconsistencies Midi. But it is certainly possible for me to misstate, misinterpret, or misrepresent the Revelation in my fallibility….but not on either of these topics (the potential immortality of soul vs. the absolute immortality; and the many facts presented in Dalmatia, The Garden, and Machiventa that have carried on throughout human history from a factual presentation by celestials long, long ago. The UB is full of such examples….and the soul is the most replete presentation in the text. It is not my scholarship or lack thereof on display here Midi. Happy to oblige your request but perhaps it best we do so on another topical thread. Bonita started this one focused on the Adjutants.

(8.10) 0:5.10 4. Soul. The soul of man is an experiential acquirement. As a mortal creature chooses to “do the will of the Father in heaven,” so the indwelling spirit becomes the father of a new reality in human experience. The mortal and material mind is the mother of this same emerging reality. The substance of this new reality is neither material nor spiritual — it is morontial. This is the emerging and immortal soul which is destined to survive mortal death and begin the Paradise ascension.

(63.4) 5:1.6 If mortal man is wholeheartedly spiritually motivated, unreservedly consecrated to the doing of the Father’s will, then, since he is so certainly and so effectively spiritually endowed by the indwelling and divine Adjuster, there cannot fail to materialize in that individual’s experience the sublime consciousness of knowing God and the supernal assurance of surviving for the purpose of finding God by the progressive experience of becoming more and more like him.

(64.2) 5:1.11 Mortal man may draw near God and may repeatedly forsake the divine will so long as the power of choice remains. Man’s final doom is not sealed until he has lost the power to choose the Father’s will. There is never a closure of the Father’s heart to the need and the petition of his children. Only do his offspring close their hearts forever to the Father’s drawing power when they finally and forever lose the desire to do his divine will — to know him and to be like him. Likewise is man’s eternal destiny assured when Adjuster fusion proclaims to the universe that such an ascender has made the final and irrevocable choice to live the Father’s will.

(64.3) 5:1.12 The great God makes direct contact with mortal man and gives a part of his infinite and eternal and incomprehensible self to live and dwell within him. God has embarked upon the eternal adventure with man. If you yield to the leadings of the spiritual forces in you and around you, you cannot fail to attain the high destiny established by a loving God as the universe goal of his ascendant creatures from the evolutionary worlds of space.

(65.2) 5:2.6 The entire experience of Adjuster communion is one involving moral status, mental motivation, and spiritual experience. The self-realization of such an achievement is mainly, though not exclusively, limited to the realms of soul consciousness, but the proofs are forthcoming and abundant in the manifestation of the fruits of the spirit in the lives of all such inner-spirit contactors.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Sep 30, 2014, 4:54 PM
(1232.5) 112:5.4 Human beings possess identity only in the material sense. Such qualities of the self are expressed by the material mind as it functions in the energy system of the intellect. When it is said that man has identity, it is recognized that he is in possession of a mind circuit which has been placed in subordination to the acts and choosing of the will of the human personality. But this is a material and purely temporary manifestation, just as the human embryo is a transient parasitic stage of human life. Human beings, from a cosmic perspective, are born, live, and die in a relative instant of time; they are not enduring. But mortal personality, through its own choosing, possesses the power of transferring its seat of identity from the passing material-intellect system to the higher morontia-soul system which, in association with the Thought Adjuster, is created as a new vehicle for personality manifestation.

(1233.1) 112:5.5 And it is this very power of choice, the universe insignia of freewill creaturehood, that constitutes man’s greatest opportunity and his supreme cosmic responsibility. Upon the integrity of the human volition depends the eternal destiny of the future finaliter; upon the sincerity of the mortal free will the divine Adjuster depends for eternal personality; upon the faithfulness of mortal choice the Universal Father depends for the realization of a new ascending son; upon the steadfastness and wisdom of decision-actions the Supreme Being depends for the actuality of experiential evolution.

(1237.6) 112:7.4 When fusion with the Adjuster has been effected, there can be no future danger to the eternal career of such a personality. Celestial beings are tested throughout a long experience, but mortals pass through a relatively short and intensive testing on the evolutionary and morontia worlds.

(1237.7) 112:7.5 Fusion with the Adjuster never occurs until the mandates of the superuniverse have pronounced that the human nature has made a final and irrevocable choice for the eternal career. This is the at-onement authorization, which, when issued, constitutes the clearance authority for the fused personality eventually to leave the confines of the local universe to proceed sometime to the headquarters of the superuniverse, from which point the pilgrim of time will, in the distant future, enseconaphim for the long flight to the central universe of Havona and the Deity adventure.

(1238.1) 112:7.6 On the evolutionary worlds, selfhood is material; it is a thing in the universe and as such is subject to the laws of material existence. It is a fact in time and is responsive to the vicissitudes thereof. Survival decisions must here be formulated. In the morontia state the self has become a new and more enduring universe reality, and its continuing growth is predicated on its increasing attunement to the mind and spirit circuits of the universes. Survival decisions are now being confirmed. When the self attains the spiritual level, it has become a secure value in the universe, and this new value is predicated upon the fact that survival decisions have been made, which fact has been witnessed by eternal fusion with the Thought Adjuster. And having achieved the status of a true universe value, the creature becomes liberated in potential for the seeking of the highest universe value — God.

(1238.2) 112:7.7 Such fused beings are twofold in their universe reactions: They are discrete morontia individuals not altogether unlike seraphim, and they are also beings in potential on the order of the Paradise finaliters.

(1238.3) 112:7.8 But the fused individual is really one personality, one being, whose unity defies all attempts at analysis by any intelligence of the universes. And so, having passed the tribunals of the local universe from the lowest to the highest, none of which have been able to identify man or Adjuster, the one apart from the other, you shall finally be taken before the Sovereign of Nebadon, your local universe Father. And there, at the hand of the very being whose creative fatherhood in this universe of time has made possible the fact of your life, you will be granted those credentials which entitle you eventually to proceed upon your superuniverse career in quest of the Universal Father.

(1238.4) 112:7.9 Has the triumphant Adjuster won personality by the magnificent service to humanity, or has the valiant human acquired immortality through sincere efforts to achieve Adjusterlikeness? It is neither; but they together have achieved the evolution of a member of one of the unique orders of the ascending personalities of the Supreme, one who will ever be found serviceable, faithful, and efficient, a candidate for further growth and development, ever ranging upward and never ceasing the supernal ascent until the seven circuits of Havona have been traversed and the onetime soul of earthly origin stands in worshipful recognition of the actual personality of the Father on Paradise.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Sep 30, 2014, 5:14 PM
(1027.1) 94:0.1 THE early teachers of the Salem religion penetrated to the remotest tribes of Africa and Eurasia, ever preaching Machiventa’s gospel of man’s faith and trust in the one universal God as the only price of obtaining divine favor. Melchizedek’s covenant with Abraham was the pattern for all the early propaganda that went out from Salem and other centers. Urantia has never had more enthusiastic and aggressive missionaries of any religion than these noble men and women who carried the teachings of Melchizedek over the entire Eastern Hemisphere. These missionaries were recruited from many peoples and races, and they largely spread their teachings through the medium of native converts. They established training centers in different parts of the world where they taught the natives the Salem religion and then commissioned these pupils to function as teachers among their own people.

(1042.1) 95:0.1 AS INDIA gave rise to many of the religions and philosophies of eastern Asia, so the Levant was the homeland of the faiths of the Occidental world. The Salem missionaries spread out all over southwestern Asia, through Palestine, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Iran, and Arabia, everywhere proclaiming the good news of the gospel of Machiventa Melchizedek. In some of these lands their teachings bore fruit; in others they met with varying success. Sometimes their failures were due to lack of wisdom, sometimes to circumstances beyond their control.

(1043.7) 95:2.1 The original Melchizedek teachings really took their deepest root in Egypt, from where they subsequently spread to Europe. The evolutionary religion of the Nile valley was periodically augmented by the arrival of superior strains of Nodite, Adamite, and later Andite peoples of the Euphrates valley. From time to time, many of the Egyptian civil administrators were Sumerians. As India in these days harbored the highest mixture of the world races, so Egypt fostered the most thoroughly blended type of religious philosophy to be found on Urantia, and from the Nile valley it spread to many parts of the world. The Jews received much of their idea of the creation of the world from the Babylonians, but they derived the concept of divine Providence from the Egyptians.

Me here: And there is far more evidence much earlier than Melchizedek’s teaching that reached every tribe and nation with their roots from the Garden, Van, and Dalmatia before that. This is hardly new or surprising or controversial so far as I know…..we are the result of those who came before us. Thankfully, the UB gives far more detail than our written records due to how recent such human records are of the divine ministry of planetary epochal upliftment that we have certainly enjoyed!!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Sep 30, 2014, 5:53 PM
By the way Midi – I really appreciate your insistence on text verification of any and all claims or contentions by students, especially here on this Forum. My wife and I are always “playing” the put up or shut up game of proving or substantiating any claim made by either of us – “Prove It” is a fun way to drive us into the Revelation and verify perspective and memory or to change perspective accordingly. I am happy to participate in such truth discovery and fact verification. But you know what they say – what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. So now it’s your turn to provide substantiating text.

To be clear, I claim:

The mortal self has no pre-existence.

The soul has no pre-existence.

The mortal self originates the soul by our first moral choice on the planet of birth.

The soul is not immortal until it achieves fusion with the TA.

Fusion assures immortality of the self and soul.

Much of the legends, fables, and scriptures of old originate from the factual teachings of celestials upon the earth and are verified by the UB in its narration of history.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
KerynMember
Sep 30, 2014, 6:16 PM
The mortal self has no pre-existence.

The soul has no pre-existence.

The mortal self originates the soul by our first moral choice on the planet of birth.

The soul is not immortal until it achieves fusion with the TA.

Fusion assures immortality of the self and soul.

This is my understanding, as well. Our soul is co-creation of our identity and our Thought Adjuster.

“The material self has personality and identity, temporal identity; the prepersonal spirit Adjuster also has identity, eternal identity. This material personality and this spirit prepersonality are capable of so uniting their creative attributes as to bring into existence the surviving identity of the immortal soul.

“Having thus provided for the growth of the immortal soul and having liberated man’s inner self from the fetters of absolute dependence on antecedent causation, the Father stands aside. Now, man having thus been liberated from the fetters of causation response, at least as pertains to eternal destiny, and provision having been made for the growth of the immortal self, the soul, it remains for man himself to will the creation or to inhibit the creation of this surviving and eternal self which is his for the choosing. No other being, force, creator, or agency in all the wide universe of universes can interfere to any degree with the absolute sovereignty of the mortal free will, as it operates within the realms of choice, regarding the eternal destiny of the personality of the choosing mortal. As pertains to eternal survival, God has decreed the sovereignty of the material and mortal will, and that decree is absolute.” (71.2) 5:6.7
AnonymousInactive
Sep 30, 2014, 10:46 PM

Bradly wrote:

But you know what they say – what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. So now it’s your turn to provide substantiating text.

OK, let me get your expert opinion on the following UB quotes:

(531.5) 47:2.1 The infant-receiving schools of Satania are situated on the finaliter world, the first of the Jerusem transition-culture spheres. These infant-receiving schools are enterprises devoted to the nurture and training of the children of time, including those who have died on the evolutionary worlds of space before the acquirement of individual status on the universe records. In the event of the survival of either or both of such a child’s parents, the guardian of destiny deputizes her associated cherubim as the custodian of the child’s potential identity, charging the cherubim with the responsibility of delivering this undeveloped soul into the hands of the Mansion World Teachers in the probationary nurseries of the morontia worlds.

(531.6) 47:2.2 It is these same deserted cherubim who, as Mansion World Teachers, under the supervision of the Melchizedeks, maintain such extensive educational facilities for the training of the probationary wards of the finaliters. These wards of the finaliters, these infants of ascending mortals, are always personalized as of their exact physical status at the time of death except for reproductive potential. This awakening occurs at the exact time of the parental arrival on the first mansion world. And then are these children given every opportunity, as they are, to choose the heavenly way just as they would have made such a choice on the worlds where death so untimely terminated their careers.

It would or could be said that the “probationary nursery” has been established for infants who had experienced death, on an evolutionary world, where these infants where not old enough to act out or make a first moral decision, and receive a thought adjuster. Regardless of the development of this infant, it would be considered as not having passed through, what you have considered as the birth of the soul. But, if the birth of the soul is dependent on this event, WHY would the narration use the phrase above, “delivering this undeveloped soul” where regardless of the birth factor and that fact that the cherubim is given “the responsibility of delivering” this non-soul, as you would put it, call it a “soul”. Would it not be logical to say that “if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck”, or in this case a “soul”.

There is a lot of information in the section of the UB which is extremely interesting in that as you read on you would see that these infants, as they get older, and if they don’t choose a specific way or path, they are eliminated as though they had not been, no exceptions, but one way to choose. I wonder if these infants, as they grow older are given this information before they make that choice?
BradlyParticipant
Sep 30, 2014, 11:52 PM
Very interesting questions Midi and also perplexing to me. I do not claim any expertise Midi but I appreciate the compliment; I am but a serious student for some decades now and well read. But I have not penetrated the text so deeply as many others with more education and insight I have studied with or read their reflections and understandings. So I rely heavily on the text itself to explain itself as best I can.

I doubt these children are given much education about the choices to come but, rather, are raised in an environment of total love and engagement and security and wisdom that they will quite naturally make a moral choice at the normal time…..or sooner perhaps by some months of our time. But, is a soul now born? Or is the child a morontia being with Morontia mind? Very interesting. I would doubt many of these ones actually result in defiance and iniquity and elimination….maybe none? Perhaps undeveloped signifies that soul is more than “potential” but that it requires a moral choice for “birth”. Another interesting topic.

This issue also goes to the Adjutants I think. What is the mind ministry at work with these children of time and space in these nurseries?

Finally, it might be better to quote my words rather than put words in my mouth: “….this non-soul, as you would put it….” – actually I’ve never used that term in my life so I wouldn’t put it that way at all. I appreciate your efforts to understand me but no reason to misquote or misrepresent my words which does not reflect well on any discussion or debate or research on this or any topic.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

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