Thanks to all those with positive and respectful responses. I appreciate your opinion on the subject.
BB
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What kind of influence (if any) do angels have over decisions we make?
44 posts · 8 participants · started May 20, 2015, 9:26 PM
- Bonita wrote: I can’t believe that anyone would entertain the notion of manipulating celestial forces.I think BB is sincere in his questions, Bonita.Brooklyn_born wrote: Is there a struggle. . . .Yes, a fascinating one:(P.22 – §3) This is the true meaning of that divine command, “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect,” which ever urges mortal man onward and beckons him inward in that long and fascinating struggle for the attainment of higher and higher levels of spiritual values and true universe meanings. This sublime search for the God of universes is the supreme adventure of the inhabitants of all the worlds of time and space.
I think BB is sincere in his questions, Bonita.
Yes, and I sincerely cannot believe that anyone in love with truth, beauty and goodness would entertain such a question sincerely.
Thoughts are important. Dark thinking leads to dark deeds. Even to entertain the idea of celestial manipulation of free will, sincerely or not, is, in my opinion, very dark. Remember when the Master said, “Get you behind me?” He said that because he recognized a subtle temptation entertained within Peter’s sincere mind. I see more than a subtle temptation behind this question of celestial manipulation, and I say, “get you behind me!”
- Mark Kurtz wrote: TUB informs us seraphim are somehow involved.Yes, and Bonita points this out too. Yes. I, too, am fascinated by the subject of celestial influences on us. We have tons of help on this launch-pad called earth. Our job is to cooperate,with the proffered help. And if you are honestly and sincerely in doubt about these matters, formulate your questions and direct them to God, himself, as you would to your best friend.You and I are spiritual friends, otherwise we would not be in the least interested in friendly sharing with each other on this blog. It is important for us to help each other on this subject. We talk to each other to share our insight, knowledge and wisdom about it. In this respect we need each other. It is very lonely not to have other people with whom to talk regarding The Urantia Book.And while we talk about influences, I remind you:8:5:4 There are many spiritual influences, and they are all as one.
The most powerful influence for all of us is the Father’s divine presence within our very own souls. The Father freely bestows himself and his influence without limit or favor. Why waste thought on anything other than this one most dynamic truth! While the Father is busy revealing himself to us within, the angels are busy revealing the combination of the Father’s love and the Son’s mercy to us from without. How can any mind contemplate evil manipulation at the same time it is surrounded by such love and mercy. The two ideas cannot occupy the same space without dire conflict. It seems wise to choose light over darkness unless one is obsessed with conflict and rebellion . . . which inevitably leads to these really inane topics about truly ridiculous ideas like manipulative raping angels! Aarrgh!
- Bonita wrote: . . . about truly ridiculous ideas like manipulative . . . angels!I think you err, as no one is saying this on this thread.
We are told that the people of Urantia suffer from the influence of primitive concepts of God . Besides gods who, ” . . . go on a rampage in the storm; who shake the earth in their wrath and strike down men in their anger; who inflict their judgments of displeasure in times of famine and flood . . .”(4:5.3), we also suffer from the influence of equally bad ideas like the one presented here in this thread: manipulative celestials. If there’s any trolling going on, I would say that it is the act of putting forth these primitive and evil notions as though they were even possibilities. Why bring it up at all? It seems that this topic of rebellious angels trying to control people and make them do things against their will has already been thoroughly debunked. And lest you missed it, the question is whether or not celestial forces (angels) can influence or manipulate the will of men.
- Bonita wrote: . . .the question is whether or not celestial forces (angels) can influence or manipulate the will of men.And I think this is a worthy question, Bonita. I edited out the word troll from my previous post, because thought it didn’t fit, thus, I re-wrote my statement. ()Bonita wrote: Why bring it up at all?Why not bring it up? Each subject and question deserves discussion, even though some of us have previously done so. I prefer to take inquiries as they are presented here without assuming the inquirer not only has read everything on this forum, but also has digested everything.
We are surrounded by spiritual influences and they are all positive. None of those influences manipulate the will of man. Man is the one who manipulates, unfortunately. The word manipulate connotes control. Personalities cannot be controlled. Personalities often attempt to control one another, but we know how horrible that is. (Watch the news any day.) Forces, on the other hand, may be controlled and sometimes need to be controlled. This is simple. There’s little to digest here.
- Brooklyn_born wrote: Is there a struggle over the will of men?\I am wondering what you are really asking? Are suggesting there is some sort of tug-o-war going on over the will of men?
Mara, I really appreciate your input. Thank you. At this point, I am no longer discussing this topic and disengaging participation from this forum. There is an element of negativity that has persisted a while now on the forum and, frankly, I have grown tired of it. I am moving on. People’s opinions should be respected but I guess there is always that one bully in the crowd. This is the internet and I expect that. It is what it is.
It was nice knowing everyone. Hopefully our lives will cross path again. I enjoyed my stay here. Take care to all.
BB
I already miss your interesting questions, BB, and you will be missed too.
Come back any time. God bless and keep you!
One of the many things I like about our various forums around the web is the opportunity they offer for developing, and then trying to exercise, tact and tolerance. This is not to say I tolerate fools, nor struggle with the insincere. But sincere questions, even if they somehow offend me, are a welcome challenge.
(1740.5, 156:5.18) “Tact is the fulcrum of social leverage, and tolerance is the earmark of a great soul. If you possess these rare and charming gifts, …”
(1774.1, 160:1.9) “You simply must have tact and tolerance.”
(1778.2, 160:3.4) “but I doubt not that the Master, with a more mature type of personality, would easily and gracefully gain an equal victory by his superior and winsome technique of tact and tolerance.”
Nigel
But sincere questions, even if they somehow offend me, are a welcome challenge.
So where is your answer to the question Nigel? What is your response concerning the manipulation of the human will by celestial “forces”? We’re all anxious to hear!
I just got an email from Moderator 2 accusing me of making personally offensive remarks towards BB. Let it be known that my so-called offensive remarks were not made towards BB at all. My comments were made towards a question, an idea . . . a bad one at that! I never referenced BB at any time and am sorry if he thinks that I did. I’ve been very careful to avoid getting into any conversation with or about BB for months now since his last blow-up aimed at me. Also, there’s no need for BB to leave the forum because I am leaving it. I’m done.
No idea or question would be possible were there not a person to conceive it.
P.1765 – §4 Always respect the personality of man. Never should a righteous cause be promoted by force; spiritual victories can be won only by spiritual power. This injunction against the employment of material influences refers to psychic force as well as to physical force. Overpowering arguments and mental superiority are not to be employed to coerce men and women into the kingdom. Man’s mind is not to be crushed by the mere weight of logic or overawed by shrewd eloquence. While emotion as a factor in human decisions cannot be wholly eliminated, it should not be directly appealed to in the teachings of those who would advance the cause of the kingdom. Make your appeals directly to the divine spirit that dwells within the minds of men. Do not appeal to fear, pity, or mere sentiment. In appealing to men, be fair; exercise self-control and exhibit due restraint; show proper respect for the personalities of your pupils. Remember that I have said: “Behold, I stand at the door and knock, and if any man will open, I will come in.”
Here is a cautionary reference for our mutual edification. Said Jesus:
P.1898 – §5 “Your inability or unwillingness to forgive your fellows is the measure of your immaturity, your failure to attain adult sympathy, understanding, and love. You hold grudges and nurse vengefulness in direct proportion to your ignorance of the inner nature and true longings of your children and your fellow beings. Love is the outworking of the divine and inner urge of life. It is founded on understanding, nurtured by unselfish service, and perfected in wisdom.”
And I am also reminded of that reference pertaining to failure in that failure is nothing more than an educational experience. And I want to tell you what I do when I have failed at something. I know when I have failed to live up to the high standard I set for myself. Once I recognize it, I look at the clock on the wall, because I want to find out how much actual time it takes for me to regain my balance, morally and spiritually speaking. The longer it takes, the worse it is in terms of personal strain and inner suffering. For me it boils down to forgiving myself for failing. Simply said, such failures are educational to the extent that one gains insight into yourself and sympathetic understanding of your fellows. More insight and understanding is a good thing.
One of my favorite pages in the book is page 1,739. I have it all marked up in crayon. I used crayon because the paper in my book is so thin and I didn’t want to use a product that would bleed to the other side of the paper. Anyhow, I’d like to share this with you as well.
P.1739 – §6 You are destined to live a narrow and mean life if you learn to love only those who love you. Human love may indeed be reciprocal, but divine love is outgoing in all its satisfaction-seeking. The less of love in any creature’s nature, the greater the love need, and the more does divine love seek to satisfy such need. Love is never self-seeking, and it cannot be self-bestowed. Divine love cannot be self-contained; it must be unselfishly bestowed.
From time to time, it becomes necessary for the moderators to remind all participants on the forum about the critical importance of using tact, tolerance and kindly forbearance when posting their comments. The following rule needs to be closely observed:
- Be kind, fair, respectful and courteous at all times without personal attacks or foul language.
All of us at times find this challenging; this is particularly true when we encounter views that trigger within us a strong negative reaction. We may be tempted to attack the person expressing these views or to speak in disparaging terms about the views themselves. As people who have such a high regard for the supernal values and spiritual principles embodied in this Fifth Epochal Revelation, it behooves us to conduct ourselves in harmony with these high levels of human living. Here are a few examples:
You can best discover values in your associates by discovering their motivation. If some one irritates you, causes feelings of resentment, you should sympathetically seek to discern his viewpoint, his reasons for such objectionable conduct. If once you understand your neighbor, you will become tolerant, and this tolerance will grow into friendship and ripen into love. P.1098:1
Self is man’s invincible foe, and self is manifested as man’s four greatest passions: anger, pride, deceit, and greed. Man’s greatest victory is the conquest of himself. When man looks to God for forgiveness, and when he makes bold to enjoy such liberty, he is thereby delivered from fear. Man should journey through life treating his fellow creatures as he would like to be treated. P.1451:0
These twenty-four men had a truly remarkable experience these two weeks when they were compelled to face problems and compose difficulties without Jesus. They learned to differ, to debate, to contend, to pray, and to compromise, and throughout it all to remain sympathetic with the other person’s viewpoint and to maintain at least some degree of tolerance for his honest opinions. P.1625:8
May we all continue to strive to imitate the attitude of our Master and friend, of whom it was said: “While he does not hesitate to reprove us, it is plain to all that he truly loves us. The better you know him, the more you will love him. You will be charmed by his unswerving devotion. Through all these years of our failure to comprehend his mission, he has been a faithful friend. While he makes no use of flattery, he does treat us all with equal kindness; he is invariably tender and compassionate.” P.1785:3
Peace and Love to you all!
Bonita asked:
So where is your answer to the question Nigel?
What is your response concerning the manipulation of the human will by celestial “forces”?Recall that BB’s question was: “What kind of influence (if any) …”
Think of the many rough edges, where this revelation is meeting evolution. It’s in such places that such questions burn. I see our beloved BB as part of the Supreme’s personal interface into these fascinating fringes, helping to leak and sneak truth into the circus that plays out there.
In such places, it’s tact and tolerance that allow truth to transfer. Forums like this allow us to exercise such skills, even to practice the unnatural art of being friendly.
And Ok, while I did say such questions are a welcome challenge, need this mean I have answers?
Nigel
