deleted
Preview: a read-only copy of the forum. To post or reply, use the current forum.
What is conscience?
73 posts · 9 participants · started Aug 5, 2016, 9:00 PM
For kicks, I did a search on the word conscientious, which I believe has the word conscience as its root. It means the desire to do what is right. The word appears in TUB 8 times and the word overconscientious shows up once only to say that it gets in the way of spiritual attainment.
34:7.7 Those God-knowing men and women who have been born of the Spirit experience no more conflict with their mortal natures than do the inhabitants of the most normal of worlds, planets which have never been tainted with sin nor touched by rebellion. Faith sons work on intellectual levels and live on spiritual planes far above the conflicts produced by unrestrained or unnatural physical desires. The normal urges of animal beings and the natural appetites and impulses of the physical nature are not in conflict with even the highest spiritual attainment except in the minds of ignorant, mistaught, or unfortunately overconscientious persons.
My guess is that it stifles the creative imagination which can cause stagnation due to slavish conformity to cultural morality. When society teaches one thing and your inner convictions differ, there is conflict that must be solved. I think we are given those three cosmic insights in order to find a way to make it work without stagnating, caving in or sacrificing our principles and highest ideals. Jesus dared to break the morality code of his time by doing things on the sabbath that were considered immoral, in that they broke God’s law. He was a bit of a maverick, certainly not overly conscientious. He was more balanced because he could discriminate true value, but he had to learn how to do that, just like we do. He worked it out the way we are supposed to work it out.
124:4.9He was distraught by the conflict between the urge to be loyal to his own convictions and the conscientious admonition of dutiful submission to his parents; his supreme conflict was between two great commands which were uppermost in his youthful mind. The one was: “Be loyal to the dictates of your highest convictions of truth and righteousness.” The other was: “Honor your father and mother, for they have given you life and the nurture thereof.” However, he never shirked the responsibility of making the necessary daily adjustments between these realms of loyalty to one’s personal convictions and duty toward one’s family, and he achieved the satisfaction of effecting an increasingly harmonious blending of personal convictions and family obligations into a masterful concept of group solidarity based upon loyalty, fairness, tolerance, and love.
Thanks Bonita. If conscience means the desire to do what is right, then we can find all kinds of examples in the book and in this day and age of people who by their desire to do what is right demonstrate amazing bravery and courage against prejudice, intolerance, unfairness, and stupidity in spite of all manner of cruel treatment to them for taking a stand for what is right. I’m thinking of the civil rights movement in the USA. The story of the good Samaritan applies to doing what is right. Here is one about Jesus doing a miracle on the Sabbath to proclaim an open break with the Pharisees. This was intentional. Why?
164:3:16 Jesus gave this man his sight by miraculous working, on this Sabbath morning and in Jerusalem near the temple, for the prime purpose of making this act an open challenge to the Sanhedrin and all the Jewish teachers and religious leaders. This was his way of proclaiming an open break with the Pharisees. He was always positive in everything he did. And it was for the purpose of bringing these matters before the Sanhedrin that Jesus brought his two apostles to this man early in the afternoon of this Sabbath day and deliberately provoked those discussions which compelled the Pharisees to take notice of the miracle.- Mara wrote: This was intentional. Why?
I think it’s because of what I wrote in my last post There is a difference between doing what is culturally right and a higher “right”. Jesus was trying to show them there are higher levels of conduct worth pursuing rather than being tied to the letter of the law as written in the Torah. Jesus was able to discriminate what is truly right, in addition to what society says is right and work a deal. He was pushing the envelope, moving the fulcrum of decision making towards including spiritual insight. We need to utilize all three of the intuitions in the decision making process and not just follow society’s definition of right and wrong.
The Sanhedrin set the law on what was right and wrong back then, and they weren’t all that enlightened. It’s the same today. There are segments of society which cling to old mores and will not budge. Mores and ethics are supposed to grow, if not, we would still be burying our children in walls or eating them. Jesus was just giving them a little nudge, perhaps by awakening their consciences.
Bonita, thanks for shining your laser-light on this great topic. Your last two posts, about the way Jesus tried to nudge local sentiment, illuminate the issue beautifully
Nigel
And what about today? What shall we do to elevate this conscience, and the consciousness of where to find the greatest human knowledge of all, the Life and Teachings of Jesus? Many are looking for this like never before.
How will the flock be fed?
- VanAmadon wrote: What shall we do to elevate this conscience . . .
Which “we” are you referring to?
Nigel Nunn wrote: Bonita, thanks for shining your laser-light on this great topic.It is a great topic Nigel, and thanks to Mara for starting it. I’ve been reflecting on these issues for decades. New ideas keep popping up, along with new ways to integrate them all. So, I’m not sure how laser-like my ideas are, but I can surely say that it’s all been going around in circles in my mind for a long, long time, maybe picking up speed, I don’t know. It’s nice to have a place to discuss it and share it. - VanAmadon wrote: What shall we do to elevate this conscience . . .
Which “we” are you referring to?
We is us. We who know where to find the greatest of all human knowledge.
Who else?
And what about today? What shall we do to elevate this conscience, and the consciousness of where to find the greatest human knowledge of all, the Life and Teachings of Jesus? Many are looking for this like never before. How will the flock be fed?
Thanks to all…a fascinating topic and discussion. Very illuminating…whether by laser, flood, or flash LIGHT!! In reply to VanAmadon’s query above, I know of 3 ways that such elevation may be occurring. Let’s begin with the planetary/cultural effect/impact of the Spirit of Truth, the higher Adjutants (Holy Spirit), and the Angels of ______(fill in the blank). Their results create mass and momentum that serves the entire world. I agree with Mara that recent history of the past few centuries provides a glimpse:
Mara wrote:
Thanks Bonita. If conscience means the desire to do what is right, then we can find all kinds of examples in the book and in this day and age of people who by their desire to do what is right demonstrate amazing bravery and courage against prejudice, intolerance, unfairness, and stupidity in spite of all manner of cruel treatment to them for taking a stand for what is right. I’m thinking of the civil rights movement in the USA. The story of the good Samaritan applies to doing what is right.
This would be the individual’s response to the Spirit ministries that enthuses and inspires others to change and aspire and act and to choose differently than the “norms” imposed upon them, often despite the consequences of personal harm/cost but knowing that they must do so to satisfy and serve their own higher conscience! Related to this is the very real impact of “kindred spirits” who are energized and galvanized into functional groups of conscience driven activism which may share a spirit source if not always a “religious” cause – still a higher cause and one that lies outside current culture – I agree that abolition, suffrage, and resistance to the heavy hand of colonialism demonstrate such righteous if not religious issues which bring progressive results despite cultural resistance.
A third influence is the new instant global communication system that has suddenly delivered a dynamic and evolutionary thrust to “shared” conscience and timely group awareness which also means far more rapid “response” to societal challenges. So, I think the “flock” is being fed and is responding to the feeding in ways which nurture personal religiosity and spirit ministry by the Golden Rule methodology which then is, more and more, being translated to planetary progress at many levels. Transparency and accountability will, I believe, be served by all of these factors over time as the individual conscience becomes a shared conscience which demands fairness and justice…or equal protection under the law.
I know my answer lacks any form of purely religious or evangelical answer as to “what shall we do”. I have no answer to that except that we must each shine our light and the more who do so, the brighter that light will become for those who seek such light. We cannot make those who do not seek to seek I do not think….not ever by any means. The Spirit of Truth is restating the gospel of Jesus to every mind of every generation….I think the best “we” might do is to add our light by our example and by our own loving service to the greatest good for the greatest number.
Thanks again to all!!
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
We is us. We who know where to find the greatest of all human knowledge. Who else?
You didn’t answer the question. Which “we”, which “us”? Where does one find the greatest of all human knowledge?
Us, Urantia Book readers.
Where does one find the greatest of all human knowledge?
In the Urantia Book, 196:1.3
- VanAmadon wrote:Where does one find the greatest of all human knowledge? In the Urantia Book, 196:1.3
Is that right? If you read the quote carefully, human knowledge with the greatest value, is “to know” the religious life of Jesus. There is a huge difference between knowledge “of” the religious life of Jesus, which can be read in a book, and knowing the religions life of Jesus as a personal experience.
196:1.3 To “follow Jesus” means to personally share his religious faith and to enter into the spirit of the Master’s life of unselfish service for man. One of the most important things in human living is to find out what Jesus believed, to discover his ideals, and to strive for the achievement of his exalted life purpose. Of all human knowledge, that which is of greatest value is to know the religious life of Jesus and how he lived it.
Reading even more carefully, note that the way to know the religious life of Jesus is to share his religious faith and enter into his life of unselfish service. It says nothing about throwing books at people or getting them to read them. Unselfish service does not have to include TUB.
If you want to personally share the Master’s religious faith, you have to get to know him intimately. He is not in the book, he’s in your soul. True, reading the book inspires the mind to seek a relationship with him in the soul, but it is not necessary. Plenty of people have found Jesus without TUB. He’s a pretty active and very busy guy. He’s working his buns off. You could join him, maybe?
Us, Urantia Book readers. Where does one find the greatest of all human knowledge? In the Urantia Book, 196:1.3
You (and we) are doing something here and now!! The internet has unleashed a response mechanism of gigantean proportions to any and all who seek to find. This is but one example of how those who find the Papers to share them one with another. There are so many opportunities to bring the Revelation to others. The Foundation and the Association are not in the business of evangelism – there simply isn’t time or resources as all of those are directed in response to a growing interest and readership and activated student body around the world. There is so much going on and still to do. It’s an “all hands on deck” kind of environment. Never seen anything like it in 4 decades of dissemination!!!!
Notice the “Get Involved” button at the upper right of this screen – enter your email address to get lots of information on events, gatherings, classes, service projects, etc., all designed simply to provide response to growing demand. And the “News and Publications” as well. There are many hundreds engaged and coordinated in committees and teams to provide a vehicle for every talent and passion! Much is already being done by “us/we”….but there is always more to be done too. What would you like to do?
Apologies for the “plug” everyone. Every time I hear “what should we do to spread the Good News”, I succumb to recruiting all sincere requests for such opportunity!! Oh…and we don’t throw books at anyone….but to whomever wants one, there is a way to get one to them. The efforts of dissemination are not limited to providing access to books to all who wish it, but also to connect those who have them and request them to serve a dynamic demand growth cycle that provides sufficient challenges without looking for targets of evangelism. What’s the point in giving light to those who do not seek such light or attempting conversion of those who are already fully engaged in personal religious experience and ascendance? “We” cannot make anyone hunger or thirst….that must come from within!
= )
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Thanks to all…
And to you too!
The topic at prayer circle today was on the subject of taking a detour, due the the many things in life that crop up, and how we handle the circumstances of the unexpected. A woman told us the following story about a girl at her church. The girl helped out with the children during church service and had been doing this service work at church for quite awhile. She loved the children and had an affinity for them. It was a happy arrangement for the parishioners, for her and for the children. Then she got pregnant. The church people who are the deciders of such matters told her she could no longer continue working with the kids, because she was pregnant. The girl was crushed. She was heartbroken.
We were outraged, and not a one of us defended that church. Where is conscience in that church-group?
And I wonder if the church broke the girl’s faith by banning her and discriminating against her? But that will be up to her, won’t it?
- Mara wrote: Where is conscience in that church-group?
Of the four phases? I’d say the first or second. They’re confirmative and submissive to tradition and authority, or are just progressive enough to keep the boat afloat, but don’t like it when something rocks the boat.
101.7.4 The great difference between a religious and a nonreligious philosophy of living consists in the nature and level of recognized values and in the object of loyalties. There are four phases in the evolution of religious philosophy: Such an experience may become merely conformative, resigned to submission to tradition and authority. Or it may be satisfied with slight attainments, just enough to stabilize the daily living, and therefore becomes early arrested on such an adventitious level. Such mortals believe in letting well enough alone. A third group progress to the level of logical intellectuality but there stagnate in consequence of cultural slavery. It is indeed pitiful to behold giant intellects held so securely within the cruel grasp of cultural bondage. It is equally pathetic to observe those who trade their cultural bondage for the materialistic fetters of a science, falsely so called. The fourth level of philosophy attains freedom from all conventional and traditional handicaps and dares to think, act, and live honestly, loyally, fearlessly, and truthfully.
Let’s begin with the planetary/cultural effect/impact of the Spirit of Truth, the higher Adjutants (Holy Spirit), and the Angels of ______(fill in the blank).
Hey Bradly, don’t get mad at my nitpicking, but the higher Adjutants are not the Holy Spirit. Maybe that’s not what you meant, but that’s what it looks like.
I agree with you that it begins with the individual. There is no way to change the world without changing yourself first. You can’t feed the masses unless your attitude is properly aligned with spirit. Do you remember that time during the Transfiguration when the apostles left behind tried to heal a kid who was possessed? They couldn’t do it. I’ve always been impressed by what Jesus told them. He said they didn’t have the right motive and if they did, they could move mountains. I think the first thing to do when you want to change the world is to get your motives straight.
I found the quote which says you cannot do spiritual work without spiritual power. Yah gotta get da powah!
158:6.4 “How long will it take you to learn that you cannot time-shorten the course of established natural phenomena except when such things are in accordance with the Father’s will? nor can you do spiritual work in the absence of spiritual power. And you can do neither of these, even when their potential is present, without the existence of that third and essential human factor, the personal experience of the possession of living faith. Must you always have material manifestations as an attraction for the spiritual realities of the kingdom? Can you not grasp the spirit significance of my mission without the visible exhibition of unusual works? When can you be depended upon to adhere to the higher and spiritual realities of the kingdom regardless of the outward appearance of all material manifestations?”
. . . says you cannot do spiritual work without spiritual power.
Jesus said, “. . . nor can you do spiritual work in the absence of spiritual power.” Nor can you do it without “. . . the personal experience of the possession of living faith.”
What is spiritual work? What is spiritual power? Is it a “spiritual” ego-trip in the sense of a person advertising him/herself as a spiritual healer?
This evening a friend told me she “prayed over” her sick dog. I previously heard of the expression praying over. I imagine my friend actually standing or bending over her dog. But I’m not sure how she did it. She said she prayed and prayed over him. And the next day (which was yesterday) she said her dog was healed. She told me God healed her dog. But this afternoon the dog is sick again. (I meant to empathize with her. I told her I was sorry her dog was sick. She knows I am not a pet person. Animals are fine for what they are, but I’m not into them.)
He said they didn’t have the right motive and if they did, they could move mountains.
It seems to me I read something about moving mountains, but I couldn’t find it. Here Jesus explains why they couldn’t heal the epileptic boy.
158:6:3 “No sooner does your faith grasp the identity of the Son of Man than your selfish desire for worldly preferment creeps back upon you, and you fall to discussing among yourselves as to who should be greatest in the kingdom of heaven, a kingdom which, as you persist in conceiving it, does not exist, nor ever shall. Have not I told you that he who would be greatest in the kingdom of my Father’s spiritual brotherhood must become little in his own eyes and thus become the server of his brethren? Spiritual greatness consists in an understanding love that is Godlike and not in an enjoyment of the exercise of material power for the exaltation of self. In what you attempted, in which you so completely failed, your purpose was not pure. Your motive was not divine. Your ideal was not spiritual. Your ambition was not altruistic. Your procedure was not based on love, and your goal of attainment was not the will of the Father in heaven.”I thought Jesus said faith would remove mountains.
144:2:6 “But when you pray, you exercise so little faith. Genuine faith will remove mountains of material difficulty which may chance to lie in the path of soul expansion and spiritual progress.”Bonjour,
Is conscience a reliable guide in decision-making, as in “Let your conscience be your guide? Mara post #22113
What is spiritual work? What is spiritual power? Is it a “spiritual” ego-trip in the sense of a person advertising him/herself as a spiritual healer?
Long ago I had a topic on soul powers. I can’t remember which forum incarnation it was in or I’d look it up and give you a link. I’m not sure it has much to do with conscience, but if you want to go there I will. Your decision, since it’s your topic. And no, it has nothing to do with ego-trips. Ego is why the apostles couldn’t cast out the demon, their motives weren’t pure. And that could be another topic, true and effective prayer.
Mara wrote: I thought Jesus said faith would remove mountains.Mara, faith is the proper attitude. This is something else that can be covered in a topic on prayer if you like. Remember, Jesus said if we have a spiritual connection with him, if his living spirit (the Spirit of Truth) infuses us to the point where our desires become his (the Jesus mind exchange), this makes our prayer according to God’s will and it will be granted. That is spiritual power, prayer on steroids. But there is no self-interest (ego) involved.
180:2.1 If you will maintain this living spiritual connection with me, you will bear abundant fruit. If you abide in me and my words live in you, you will be able to commune freely with me, and then can my living spirit so infuse you that you may ask whatsoever my spirit wills and do all this with the assurance that the Father will grant us our petition. Herein is the Father glorified: that the vine has many living branches, and that every branch bears much fruit. And when the world sees these fruit-bearing branches—my friends who love one another, even as I have loved them—all men will know that you are truly my disciples.
