Yes of course, philosophy can transform the intellectual part of religion. The conscience is the intellect. If the conscience is saying that God will get angry if I don’t follow certain rituals, then my religion will be concerned about performing those rituals. Through revelation, the intellect might begin to learn that God doesn’t get angry about those rituals being performed. That is revelation changing a philosophy concerning God creating a different way of thinking. Because of this, I might now begin to forget about the rituals and change my religion to accommodate a new philosophical understanding about God. I’ve realized that the old idea that grew out of my conscience was a fairy tale, ideas evolved and that effects the practice of religion. This doesn’t make the religion a fairy tale, both the new religion and the old are attempting to do God’s will. It was the belief dictated by conscience that was the fairy tale. It’s a fine point but important because people’s religion, regardless of being based on fairy tales or not, is the most important force on the planet.
True Religion
56 posts · 8 participants · started Jul 17, 2014, 1:33 PM
1114.4)101:7.6 Philosophy transforms that primitive religion which was largely a fairy tale of conscience into a living experience in the ascending values of cosmic reality.
Religion IS the fairy tail of conscience. Until its transformed by philosophy. There is no other way to read this….Try giving this quote to someone who has never read TUB, they will read it the same way. Just because a religion is largely a fairy tale of conscience that doesn’t mean its not important. It just needs to be transformed into True Religion within a cosmic context. “Ascending values of cosmic reality” that is a reference to True Religion. That is what this primitive religion gets transformed into. That is one of the many reasons there is philosophy, to transform our religious life and take it up to a cosmic level.
Religion IS the fairy tail of conscience. Until its transformed by philosophy.
So, are you saying that religion cannot evolve unless transformed by philosophy? Do you think there is such a thing as a fairy tale philosophy?
I think religion can evolve without philosophy up to a certain point, but I don’t think there can be true religion with philosophy transforming it. Yea I think there is a fairy tale of philosophy, I would call those rationalization schemes.
. . . but I don’t think there can be true religion with philosophy transforming it.
So true religion is not transformed by philosophy?
So true religion is not transformed by philosophy?. . .
I don’t think there can be true religion with philosophy transforming it (mere evolutionary religion/primitive religion).
So primitive religion gets transformed by philosophy and becomes True Religion.
So primitive religion gets transformed by philosophy and becomes True Religion.
Okay, then where does revelation come in?
Well mota is superphilosophy and revelation compensates for a lack of mota insight. Revelation is essentially replacing this philosophical perspective. So if we have a good philosophy budding up it can join up with this revelation and complete the philosophic picture. If we were on the mansion worlds the lower levels of mota would join up with our true philosophy to form a more complete picture. Mota does the same thing that revelation is doing.
Science is man’s attempted study of his physical environment, the world of energy-matter; religion is man’s experience with the cosmos of spirit values; philosophy has been developed by man’s mind effort to organize and correlate the findings of these widely separated concepts into something like a reasonable and unified attitude toward the cosmos. Philosophy, clarified by revelation, functions acceptably in the absence of mota and in the presence of the breakdown and failure of man’s reason substitute for mota—metaphysics. ~
On the mansion worlds mota is a huge part of our progression.
Mansonia the third is a world of great personal and social achievement for all who have not made the equivalent of these circles of culture prior to release from the flesh on the mortal nativity worlds. On this sphere more positive educational work is begun. The training of the first two mansion worlds is mostly of a deficiency nature—negative—in that it has to do with supplementing the experience of the life in the flesh. On this third mansion world the survivors really begin their progressive morontia culture. The chief purpose of this training is to enhance the understanding of the correlation of morontia mota and mortal logic, the co-ordination of morontia mota and human philosophy. Surviving mortals now gain practical insight into true metaphysics. This is the real introduction to the intelligent comprehension of cosmic meanings and universe interrelationships. The culture of the third mansion world partakes of the nature of the postbestowal Son age of a normal inhabited planet. ~ The Urantia Book, (47:5.3)
Metaphysics is our philosophic attempt at mota. Revelation replaces mota, it essentially accomplishes what our metaphysics set out to do. Revelation is able to give a top down philosophy. We can provide the bottom part and the two can join. Philosophy “partially fails” because without revelation its just not able to get that top down perspective, there is only so much a person can come up with on their own without revelation we need that “authoritative elimination of error”. It just makes having a cosmic philosophy that much easier.
Metaphysics has proved a failure; mota, man cannot perceive. Revelation is the only technique which can compensate for the absence of the truth sensitivity of mota in a material world. Revelation authoritatively clarifies the muddle of reason-developed metaphysics on an evolutionary sphere. ~ The Urantia Book, (103:6.8)
Science ends its reason-search in the hypothesis of a First Cause. Religion does not stop in its flight of faith until it is sure of a God of salvation. The discriminating study of science logically suggests the reality and existence of an Absolute. Religion believes unreservedly in the existence and reality of a God who fosters personality survival. What metaphysics fails utterly in doing, and what even philosophy fails partially in doing, revelation does; that is, affirms that this First Cause of science and religion’s God of salvation are one and the same Deity. ~ The Urantia Book, (101:2.7)
But there is so much more to all of this, I am still trying to figure it all out.
So let me see if I understand you. Human philosophy transforms evolutionary religion, revelation upsteps human philosophy so it can turn evolutionary religion into true religion. Is that what you’re saying? So the goal of revelation is true religion then? And the UB tells us that true religion is the religion of revelation (155:5.5)
Where do you think the Spirit of Truth comes in with all of this?
Well this is how I see it. We experience a measure of True Philosophy first when we go to the higher domain of our mind and this small measure of philosophic comprehension is there by grace. Because we all have souls and an adjuster and the SOT those spiritual influences can get us started. Within that philosophic consciousness we can engage religion with a more objective hand and that allows us to have True Religion. So religion gets taken up to a cosmic domain within our mind and it becomes a more holistic experience encompassing our entire moral/philosophic consciousness. The SOT ministers to us.
Hey Scott, you’re supposed to have your own interpretation. It’s rare that two people share the same interpretation. Philosophy is an individualized thing. But since we’re talking about true religion, could you define your interpretation of the phrase “true philosophy”?
Because we all have souls and an adjuster and the SOT those spiritual influences can get us started.
Where do you think the adjutants and the Holy Spirit come in? Don’t they also get us started?
Within that philosophic consciousness we can engage religion with a more objective hand and that allows us to have True Religion.
I asked before and you didn’t answer. What is philosophic consciousness?
If the one truly objective reality is the Thought Adjuster (196:3.21) then what role does the Adjuster play in objectifying religious experience which is a “purely spiritual subjective phenomenon” (103:9.5)?
Where do you think the adjutants and the Holy Spirit come in? Don’t they also get us started?
Yes :).
Here is a quote that hints that we an have some objectivity mindally.
(1105.5) 101:2.1 The fact of religion consists wholly in the religious experience of rational and average human beings. And this is the only sense in which religion can ever be regarded as scientific or even psychological. The proof that revelation is revelation is this same fact of human experience: the fact that revelation does synthesize the apparently divergent sciences of nature and the theology of religion into a consistent and logical universe philosophy, a co-ordinated and unbroken explanation of both science and religion, thus creating a harmony of mind and satisfaction of spirit which answers in human experience those questionings of the mortal mind which craves to know how the Infinite works out his will and plans in matter, with minds, and on spirit.
I asked before and you didn’t answer. What is philosophic consciousness?
A true philosophic consciousness IMO is one that sees the cosmos, and is like the cosmos. A synthesis of a material and spiritual consciousness. Its a way of viewing of reality in a 3-fold perspective. Its also a moral consciousness and a cosmic consciousness. There is a lot more that could be said but I don’t speculate beyond what I feel confident in. IMO its a mindal domain in the Holy Spirit, and in this domain the SOT and the Adjuster are better able to minister to us. IMO this cosmic domain is the “temple within” the “kingdom of heaven within”. IMO its also a reflective domain, where we can look up and out of ourselves.
Just want to acknowledge my delight and appreciation for so many thoughtful and reflective posts on this topic. Nelson – I have been overwhelmed by personal and professional demands but also want to state my agreement with your premise – True Religion has many forms I think and can certainly be both experienced and expressed by anyone – including my atheist friends – regardless of beliefs or shared vocabulary of its description or definition. I have said elsewhere that I have come to believe that love is true religion and those who share this love in care for any others is experiencing true religion. It may not be “high” religion or congnizant or “enlightened” by the mind, but is there love and love response without Spirit? Nope. Is love an alignment of the individual with God and God’s way? You bet it is.
As Bonita points out, motive and intent are key in this regard. But there are many religionists living, in some form and manner, the True Religion and may not even recognize or acknowledge that truth. But soul grows by love and by service. Whatever grows soul is true….True Religion.
Thanks everyone….WOW….what a topic and such scholarship and intuition for our mutual upliftment. Peace.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
A true philosophic consciousness IMO is one that sees the cosmos, and is like the cosmos.
I’m curious what you think of my description of cosmic consciousness. It’s still in draft form, but it sounds close to what you’re trying to describe.
Cosmic consciousness is an experiential consciousness, part of the evolution of the Supreme Being. The cosmic mind is made accessible to personality by the ministration of the Holy Spirit, a personal mind ministry. And when combined with the presence of the Adjuster, creates the capacity for spiritual insight.
Cosmic consciousness is a personality realization of the interrelatedness of trifold experience: mind, body and spirit which are functionally inter-associated This requires a recognition of cosmic values and their potential for actualization. It is a process which begins in the seventh psychic, or cosmic circle and evolves through to the first circle with ever increasing cosmic consciousness.
Reality recognition, innate in the self-consciousness of personality, requires the quest of discovery as a first step. Once value is discovered, a reaction takes place with cosmic mind gravity, much like a universe handshake, a grasping form of recognition. The discovery, then recognized, must progress by the interpretation of meaning through experience. This indicates that the mind has identified a correlation or interrelatedness with other reality experiences. It is like an interlocking of puzzle pieces, a viola! moment of one’s personal relationship and identification with cosmic reality.
The more meanings and values recognized and chosen, the more potentials made actual, the more conscious one becomes of a trifold relationship with cosmic reality, the Supreme Being. This involves not only a cosmic mind recognition response, but an integrated personality validation through decision-action derived from cooperation with the triune spiritual forces within the soul (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). Cosmic consciousness grows along with the soul as the personality obtains cosmic insight into value and dares to actualize its meaning through living experience, thereby augmenting the soul’s awareness of its relation and contribution to the cosmos.
Lots of truth there :).
Religion comes from the root word “religio” which means “to bind back”. That is what religion is IMO, its a binding action, where we are binding our self back to God.
(1124.5) 102:6.3 The religionist of philosophic attainment has faith in a personal God of personal salvation, something more than a reality, a value, a level of achievement, an exalted process, a transmutation, the ultimate of time-space, an idealization, the personalization of energy, the entity of gravity, a human projection, the idealization of self, nature’s upthrust, the inclination to goodness, the forward impulse of evolution, or a sublime hypothesis. The religionist has faith in a God of love. Love is the essence of religion and the wellspring of superior civilization.
Seems some things are inseparable.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
(1124.5) 102:6.3 The religionist of philosophic attainment has faith in a personal God of personal salvation. . .
There you go! Faith is personal. The fruits of faith are social.
Observing minds and discriminating souls know religion when they find it in the lives of their fellows. Religion requires no definition; we all know its social, intellectual, moral, and spiritual fruits. And this all grows out of the fact that religion is the property of the human race; it is not a child of culture. True, one’s perception of religion is still human and therefore subject to the bondage of ignorance, the slavery of superstition, the deceptions of sophistication, and the delusions of false philosophy. (Paper 102)There you go! Faith is personal. The fruits of faith are social.
And the purpose of the ascension career is socialization of the personality, which means the bearing of much fruit.
p647:05 Cosmic socialization constitutes the highest form of personality unification.
p1946:3 In fact, the branch exists only for, and can do nothing except, fruit bearing, yielding grapes. So does the true believer exist only for the purpose of bearing the fruits of the spirit: to love man as he himself has been loved by God—that we should love one another, even as Jesus has loved us.
