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Suffering

99 posts · 4 participants · started May 30, 2023, 4:53 PM

  1. Donald Trump devrait arrêter ses petites  et hypocrites manœuvres théoriques, historiques et géopolitiques pour se donner des “droits” sur des territoires extérieurs.

    Venir dire à l’Europe que, sans l’Amérique, celle-ci parlerait allemand, ce n’est quand même pas la France qui a nommé Hitler “personnalité de l’année”, qui a installé l’Union européenne à ses ordres, qui a recruté les cerveaux nazis, que sais-je encore … mais ça va pour nous ; tant qu’on ne vient pas nous faire des leçons de morale hypocrites pour nous dépouiller encore plus.

    On croirait les pharisiens qui utilisent les responsabilités comme des privilèges et non comme des devoirs. Quelques bons coups de fouet là-dedans feraient le plus grand bien.

     

    Par contre, à l’intérieur, il procède à un nettoyage exemplaire sur les pseudo droits de minorités ” très très exploitées par les très méchants blancs hétéros”.

    Ça suffit la culpabilité systématique envers les professionnels de la pleurniche pour disposer gratuitement et immédiatement des fruits du labeur des autres.

    Si un cas de racisme est véritablement caractérisé, ce qui est rarissime, alors il convient de prendre les décisions adéquates mais je crois que c’est ce qui est fait par l’administration Trump.

    Ensuite, venir accaparer la puissance scientifique pour justifier leur indolence (quel noir a aujourd’hui réellement connu les douleurs de l’esclavage dans nos pays ? La science n’a pas vocation à entretenir les mythes de culpabilité et les errances de mœurs), cela doit cesser en Amérique comme ailleurs.

    Un peu de droiture n’a jamais fait de mal à personne.

    J’aime voir l’Amérique regarder vers les étoiles et non cela monter sur elle-même.

    C’est intéressant de voir pratiquer à l’extérieur l’hypocrisie que l’on chasse à l’intérieur. Serait-ce à l’image de moi ? Probablement au moins un peu, voilà une méditation à opérer -et non une culpabilité à nourrir.

    Que Dieu refasse l’Amérique et le monde grands encore.

    Pulchrum nimis ut sit falsus

  2. Donald Trump devrait arrêter ses petites et hypocrites manœuvres théoriques, historiques et géopolitiques pour se donner des « droits » sur des territoires extérieurs.

     

    Venir dire à l’Europe que, sans l’Amérique, celle-ci parlerait allemand, ce n’est quand même pas la France qui a nommé Hitler “personnalité de l’année”, qui a installé l’Union européenne à ses ordres, qui a recruté les cerveaux nazis, que sais-je encore … mais ça va pour nous ; tant qu’on ne vient pas nous faire des leçons de morale hypocrites pour nous dépouiller encore plus.

     

    On croirait les pharisiens qui utilisent les responsabilités comme des privilèges et non comme des devoirs. Quelques bons coups de fouet là-dedans feraient le plus grand bien.

     

     

     

     

    Par contre, à l’intérieur, il procède à un nettoyage exemplaire sur les pseudo droits de minorités ” très très exploitées par les très méchants blancs hétéros “.

     

    Ça suffit la culpabilité systématique envers les professionnels de la pleurniche pour disposer gratuitement et immédiatement des fruits du travail des autres.

     

    Si un cas de racisme est véritablement caractérisé, ce qui est rarissime, alors il convient de prendre les décisions adéquates mais je crois que c’est ce qui est fait par l’administration Trump.

     

    Ensuite, venir accaparer la puissance scientifique pour justifier leur indolence (quel noir a aujourd’hui réellement connu les douleurs de l’esclavage dans nos pays ? La science n’a pas vocation à entretenir les mythes de culpabilité et les errances de mœurs), cela doit cesser en Amérique comme ailleurs.

     

    Un peu de droiture n’a jamais fait de mal à personne.

     

    J’aime voir l’Amérique regarder vers les étoiles et non cela monter sur elle-même.

     

    C’est intéressant de voir pratiquer à l’extérieur l’hypocrisie que l’on chasse à l’intérieur. Serait-ce à l’image de moi ? Probablement au moins un peu, voilà une méditation à opérer – et non une culpabilité à nourrir.

     

    Que Dieu refasse l’Amérique et le monde grands encore.

    Pulchrum nimis ut sit falsus

  3. Donald Trump devrait arrêter ses petites et hypocrites manœuvres théoriques, historiques et géopolitiques pour se donner des « droits » sur des territoires extérieurs.

    Venir dire à l’Europe que, sans l’Amérique, celle-ci parlerait allemand, ce n’est quand même pas la France qui a nommé Hitler “personnalité de l’année”, qui a installé l’Union européenne à ses ordres, qui a recruté les cerveaux nazis, que sais-je encore … mais ça va pour nous ; tant qu’on ne vient pas nous faire des leçons de morale hypocrites pour nous dépouiller encore plus.

    On croirait les pharisiens qui utilisent les responsabilités comme des privilèges et non comme des devoirs. Quelques bons coups de fouet là-dedans feraient le plus grand bien.

     

    Par contre, à l’intérieur, il procède à un nettoyage exemplaire sur les pseudo droits de minorités « très très exploitées par les très méchants blancs hétéros ».

    Ça suffit la culpabilité systématique envers les professionnels de la pleurniche pour disposer gratuitement et immédiatement des fruits du travail des autres.

    Si un cas de racisme est véritablement caractérisé, ce qui est rare de nos jours, alors il convient de prendre les décisions adéquates mais je crois que c’est ce qui est fait par l’administration Trump.

    Ensuite, venir accaparer la puissance scientifique pour justifier leur indolence (quel noir a aujourd’hui réellement connu les douleurs de l’esclavage dans nos pays ? La science n’a pas vocation à entretenir les mythes de culpabilité et les errances de mœurs), cela doit cesser en Amérique comme ailleurs.

    Un peu de droiture n’a jamais fait de mal à personne.

    J’aime voir l’Amérique regarder vers les étoiles et non cela monter sur elle-même.

    C’est intéressant de voir pratiquer à l’extérieur l’hypocrisie que l’on chasse à l’intérieur. Serait-ce à l’image de moi ? Probablement au moins un peu, voilà une méditation à opérer – et non une culpabilité à nourrir.

    Que Dieu refasse l’Amérique et le monde grands encore.

    Pulchrum nimis ut sit falsus

  4. Donald Trump devrait arrêter ses petites  et hypocrites manœuvres théoriques, historiques et géopolitiques pour se donner des “droits” sur des territoires extérieurs.

    Venir dire à l’Europe que, sans l’Amérique, celle-ci parlerait allemand, ce n’est quand même pas la France qui a nommé Hitler “personnalité de l’année”, qui a installé l’Union européenne à ses ordres, qui a recruté les cerveaux nazis, que sais-je encore … mais ça va pour nous ; tant qu’on ne vient pas nous faire des leçons de morale hypocrites pour nous dépouiller encore plus.

    On croirait les pharisiens qui utilisent les responsabilités comme des privilèges et non comme des devoirs. Quelques bons coups de fouet là-dedans feraient le plus grand bien.

    Par contre, à l’intérieur, il procède à un nettoyage exemplaire sur les pseudo droits de minorités ” très très exploitées par les très méchants blancs hétéros”.

    Ça suffit la culpabilité systématique envers les professionnels de la pleurniche pour disposer gratuitement et immédiatement des fruits du labeur des autres. Si un cas de racisme est véritablement caractérisé, ce qui est rarissime, alors il convient de prendre les décisions adéquates mais je crois que c’est ce qui est fait par l’administration Trump.

    Ensuite, venir accaparer la puissance scientifique pour justifier leur indolence (quel noir a aujourd’hui réellement connu les douleurs de l’esclavage dans nos pays ? La science n’a pas vocation à entretenir les mythes de culpabilité et les errances de mœurs), cela doit cesser en Amérique comme ailleurs.

    Un peu de droiture n’a jamais fait de mal à personne.

    J’aime voir l’Amérique regarder vers les étoiles et non cela monter sur elle-même.

    C’est intéressant de voir pratiquer à l’extérieur l’hypocrisie que l’on chasse à l’intérieur. Serait-ce à l’image de moi  Probablement au moins un peu, voilà une méditation à opérer -et non une culpabilité à nourrir.

    Que Dieu refasse l’Amérique et le monde grands encore.

    Translator app:

    “Donald Trump should stop his petty and hypocritical theoretical, historical, and geopolitical maneuvers to give himself “rights” over foreign territories.

    Coming to tell Europe that, without America, it would speak German, it wasn’t France who named Hitler “Person of the Year,” who installed the European Union at its command, who recruited Nazi masterminds, and whatnot… but that’s fine with us; as long as no one comes along to give us hypocritical moral lessons to strip us of even more.

    You’d think the Pharisees were using responsibilities as privileges and not as duties. A few good lashes in that regard would do the world of good.

    On the other hand, at home, he is carrying out an exemplary cleanup of the pseudo-rights of minorities “very, very exploited by very nasty straight whites.”

    Enough with the systematic guilt directed at whining professionals who freely and immediately dispose of the fruits of others’ labor.

    If a case of racism is truly established, which is rare these days, then appropriate decisions must be made, but I believe that’s what the Trump administration is doing.

    Then, monopolizing scientific power to justify their indolence (what Black person today has truly experienced the pain of slavery in our countries? Science is not intended to perpetuate myths of guilt and moral errors) must stop in America as elsewhere.

    A little rectitude never hurt anyone.

    I like to see America looking to the stars and not looking inward.

    It’s interesting to see the hypocrisy that we banish internally practiced on the outside. Could it be a reflection of me? Probably at least a little. This is something to reflect on—not something to feel guilty about.

    May God make America and the world great again.”

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  5. littlewashu wrote:

    Yes, with Trump in office, (BBB) was passed and signed by him, resulting in wealth becoming concentrated among the elite while taking resources away from the original citizens. This situation forces many to work harder and sacrifices them to the $4.5 trillion cuts intended for the wealthy. He and the GOP, following Project 2025, dismantled programs that support the welfare of the people, including food and health safety nets, which led to around 17 million people being removed from these programs. It is disheartening to witness this in real life, and we, the people, struggle to fight against the elite class. The MAGA Republicans seem to want to see others suffer out of pure hatred and align themselves with the elite in hopes of benefiting from their wealth. Additionally, the MAGA Republicans exhibit racist behaviors, marginalizing diverse communities and attempting to create a singular race. Consequently, our rights and freedoms are being eroded by the MAGA Republicans, who wish to transform our country into a Christian nationalist state.

    While I generally agree with your political assessment,  I recommend we consider a couple of things.

    Mr. Trump was elected by democratic process and is supported by a majority of House Representatives and Senators who were also democratically elected.

    The USA suffers by its own choices and priorities.  Some might say we deserve whatever suffering must consequently be endured.  Indeed, many of those who will suffer the most by these policies actually voted for the congressional representatives and the president who deliver their suffering.   Go figure.

    The innocent victims of such national mismanagement offer all of us an opportunity to serve, to share and to care for one another.

    Another thought is that politics, whether local, national, or otherwise is a divisive topic beyond our purpose here, where students of the Urantia Papers share in the study and discussion of that text.

    I suggest tying our comments and posts more directly to our purpose and that shared text.  Posting relevant text or asking questions about the Papers leads to such study and related discussions.

    Recent and local politics may be interesting to those so affected and engaged, but how does such relate to the Papers?  Specifically. (?)

     

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  6. “May God make America and the world great again.”

    A most interesting sentiment.   As a student of American history, I am most uncertain when America was “great”.

    Our greatness in agriculture and industry has been based on slavery, indentured labor, sweat shops, child labor, and the subjugation of workers (still is today, both domestically and by trade/import policies).

    Since R. Reagan’s trickle down voodoo economic revolution 40 years ago, the rich have gotten richer and the poor poorer and the middle class shrinks and sinks in debt to fat cats and bankers and enriched politicians who betray the working class.

    The USA has openly or seruptiously overthrown dozens of countries and governments,  including democracies and peaceful nations offering no threat to America, to pursue an agenda of domination and commercial exploitation without direct colonization.

    We are a nation of immigrants, yet every generation of immigrants has been reviled and unwanted and unwelcome and mistreated by all those who immigrated before them.

    Our farms and factories and cities are situated on land claimed by the genocide of native/original populations who were here for tens of thousands of years prior to the greed, violence, betrayals, and disease the European immigrants delivered to them.

    The world at large has hardly been tranquil or stable or enlightened in its past either.

    My understanding of the Papers is that God delivers progress primarily by evolutionary self determination by the development and expression of experiential wisdom of mortals, individually and collectively.

    Our world is surrounded and inhabited by Ministering Celestials, making lemonade from human lemons, but progress requires the evolutionary process of learning by doing and learning better by suffering the repercussions of imperfection.

    Only the future holds the potential for the greatness of humanity still to come and only our spiritization can deliver our destiny.

    God’s intervention and deliverance from evil is a primitive myth.

    The Urantia Papers teach that the golden age is a myth.  Hope lies in the future and by the Spirit within.

    Enlightenment and utopia are our destiny…but not our past.

    Yet, we may each know both Enlightenment and Utopia in this short and personal life no matter the planetary progress, or lack thereof, and despite all circumstances and situations and suffering by our own spiritual life.

    68:1.7 (764.3) The modern phrase, “back to nature,” is a delusion of ignorance, a belief in the reality of the onetime fictitious “golden age.” The only basis for the legend of the golden age is the historic fact of Dalamatia and Eden. But these improved societies were far from the realization of utopian dreams.

    P.S.  To be clear, I am proud of being human (tadpole), and from Urantia (the “world of the cross”), and an American too.

    We have the greatest constitutional potential and idealism and this country has thrived by the endurance and tenacity and spirituality of our most oppressed populations.

    I have a great hope that our suffering will lead to more wisdom and greater compassion to realize our potential.

    But….I certainly do not hope for the past or any return to the nightmares we have already endured.

    Just saying….

    = )

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  7. Le Père ne veut jamais que ses enfants souffrent ?

    Moi je crois que la souffrance fait partie du plan des créatures expérientielles :

    L’univers de votre origine se forge entre l’enclume de la justice et le marteau de la souffrance, mais ceux qui manient le marteau sont des enfants de miséricorde, la descendance spirituelle de l’Esprit Infini.

     

    Nulle souffrance ne sera vaine car la souffrance est une légitimité.

    Pulchrum nimis ut sit falsus

  8. Le Père ne veut jamais que ses enfants souffrent ? Moi je crois que la souffrance fait partie du plan des créatures expérientielles :

    L’univers de votre origine se forge entre l’enclume de la justice et le marteau de la souffrance, mais ceux qui manient le marteau sont des enfants de miséricorde, la descendance spirituelle de l’Esprit Infini.

    Nulle souffrance ne sera vaine car la souffrance est une légitimité.

    Translator app:

    “Does the Father never want his children to suffer? I believe that suffering is part of the plan for experiential beings:

    The universe of your origin is shaped between the anvil of justice and the hammer of suffering, but those who wield the hammer are children of mercy, the spiritual descendants of the Infinite Spirit.

    No suffering will be in vain because suffering is a legitimacy.”

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  9. Nulle souffrance ne sera vaine car la souffrance est une légitimité.

     

    Accidents happen. Inheritances happen. Shit happens. No one is immune to nor exempt from the struggles of time –  the tribulations of temporal existence. Are we not fortunate to live in this day and age?  Imagine 200 years ago or 2,000 years ago.

    147:3.3 [Part IV]
    In speaking to those assembled, Jesus said: “Many of you are here, sick and afflicted, because of your many years of wrong living. Some suffer from the accidents of time, others as a result of the mistakes of their forebears, while some of you struggle under the handicaps of the imperfect conditions of your temporal existence. But my Father works, and I would work, to improve your earthly state but more especially to insure your eternal estate. None of us can do much to change the difficulties of life unless we discover the Father in heaven so wills. After all, we are all beholden to do the will of the Eternal. If you could all be healed of your physical afflictions, you would indeed marvel, but it is even greater that you should be cleansed of all spiritual disease and find yourselves healed of all moral infirmities. You are all God’s children; you are the sons of the heavenly Father. The bonds of time may seem to afflict you, but the God of eternity loves you. And when the time of judgment shall come, fear not, you shall all find, not only justice, but an abundance of mercy. Verily, verily, I say to you: He who hears the gospel of the kingdom and believes in this teaching of sonship with God, has eternal life; already are such believers passing from judgment and death to light and life. And the hour is coming in which even those who are in the tombs shall hear the voice of the resurrection.”

     

    Later Nathaniel asked Jesus a question.

     

    148:5.1 [Part IV]
    At another of these private interviews in the garden Nathaniel asked Jesus: “Master, though I am beginning to understand why you refuse to practice healing indiscriminately, I am still at a loss to understand why the loving Father in heaven permits so many of his children on earth to suffer so many afflictions.” The Master answered Nathaniel, saying:
     “Nathaniel, you and many others are thus perplexed because you do not comprehend how the natural order of this world has been so many times upset by the sinful adventures of certain rebellious traitors to the Father’s will. And I have come to make a beginning of setting these things in order. But many ages will be required to restore this part of the universe to former paths and thus release the children of men from the extra burdens of sin and rebellion. The presence of evil alone is sufficient test for the ascension of man — sin is not essential to survival.

     

    “But, my son, you should know that the Father does not purposely afflict his children. Man brings down upon himself unnecessary affliction as a result of his persistent refusal to walk in the better ways of the divine will. Affliction is potential in evil, but much of it has been produced by sin and iniquity. Many unusual events have transpired on this world, and it is not strange that all thinking men should be perplexed by the scenes of suffering and affliction which they witness. But of one thing you may be sure: The Father does not send affliction as an arbitrary punishment for wrongdoing. The imperfections and handicaps of evil are inherent; the penalties of sin are inevitable; the destroying consequences of iniquity are inexorable. Man should not blame God for those afflictions which are the natural result of the life which he chooses to live; neither should man complain of those experiences which are a part of life as it is lived on this world. It is the Father’s will that mortal man should work persistently and consistently toward the betterment of his estate on earth. Intelligent application would enable man to overcome much of his earthly misery.

     

    “Nathaniel, it is our mission to help men solve their spiritual problems and in this way to quicken their minds so that they may be the better prepared and inspired to go about solving their manifold material problems. I know of your confusion as you have read the Scriptures. All too often there has prevailed a tendency to ascribe to God the responsibility for everything which ignorant man fails to understand. The Father is not personally responsible for all you may fail to comprehend. Do not doubt the love of the Father just because some just and wise law of his ordaining chances to afflict you because you have innocently or deliberately transgressed such a divine ordinance.

     

    “But, Nathaniel, there is much in the Scriptures which would have instructed you if you had only read with discernment. Do you not remember that it is written: ‘My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction, for whom the Lord loves he corrects, even as the father corrects the son in whom he takes delight.’ ‘The Lord does not afflict willingly.’ ‘Before I was afflicted, I went astray, but now do I keep the law. Affliction was good for me that I might thereby learn the divine statutes.’ ‘I know your sorrows. The eternal God is your refuge, while underneath are the everlasting arms.’ ‘The Lord also is a refuge for the oppressed, a haven of rest in times of trouble.’ ‘The Lord will strengthen him upon the bed of affliction; the Lord will not forget the sick.’ ‘As a father shows compassion for his children, so is the Lord compassionate to those who fear him. He knows your body; he remembers that you are dust.’ ‘He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds.’ ‘He is the hope of the poor, the strength of the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, and a shadow from the devastating heat.’ ‘He gives power to the faint, and to them who have no might he increases strength.’ ‘A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax he will not quench.’ ‘When you pass through the waters of affliction, I will be with you, and when the rivers of adversity overflow you, I will not forsake you.’ ‘He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and to comfort all who mourn.’ ‘There is correction in suffering; affliction does not spring forth from the dust.’”

  10. Nice Mara.

    God does not impose nor require suffering.   I don’t think suffering is part of the plan so much as it is an inevitable and inherent result of imperfection and evolutionary and experiential perfecting.

    We are taught in the Papers that God seeks the contributions of experiential wisdom to existential wisdom.  The combination of both is apparently superior, or even more perfect, than either without the other.

    Freewill and evolutionary progress based on experience will always mean imperfection in perfecting.

    God does not wish for or impose suffering but cannot prevent it and also gain the benefits from experiential wisdom which benefits all beings everywhere for evermore.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  11. Alors pourquoi n’existe-t-il pas (ou une relative) de légitimité par la sagesse ?

    … plutôt que de faire passer le Maître d’un univers par les souffrances de la similitude de la chair mortelle ?

    Parce que la souffrance est la condition de l’imperfection et que nul n’est en droit d’exiger la souffrance d’autrui s’il n’est capable de la souffrir pour lui-même.

    La souffrance est la légitimité.

    La souffrance est module par la tolérance. La perfection rend fondamentalement intolérant au mal et c’est ce différentiel qui explique pourquoi Micael a souffert plus que nous tous réunis et donc sa totale légitimité sur ce grand monde.

     

    En France, on dit que ce n’est pas le monde des bisounours.

     

    https://youtu.be/6U4VOWuMdyc?si=3l54VryNpXYmZWat

    Pulchrum nimis ut sit falsus

  12. Alors pourquoi n’existe-t-il pas (ou une relative) de légitimité par la sagesse ?

    … plutôt que de faire passer le Maître d’un univers par les souffrances de la similitude de la chair mortelle ?

    Parce que la souffrance est la condition de l’imperfection et que nul n’est en droit d’exiger la souffrance d’autrui s’il n’est capable de la souffrir pour lui-même.

    La souffrance est la légitimité.

    La souffrance est module par la tolérance. La perfection rend fondamentalement intolérant au mal et c’est ce différentiel qui explique pourquoi Micael a souffert plus que nous tous réunis et donc sa totale légitimité sur ce grand monde.

     

    En France, on dit que ce n’est pas le monde des bisounours.

     

    https://youtu.be/6U4VOWuMdyc?si=3l54VryNpXYmZWat

    Pulchrum nimis ut sit falsus

  13. Alors pourquoi n’existe-t-il pas (ou une relative) de légitimité par la sagesse ?

    … plutôt que de faire passer le Maître d’un univers par les souffrances de la similitude de la chair mortelle?

    Parce que la souffrance est la condition de l’imperfection et que nul n’est en droit d’exiger la souffrance d’autrui s’il n’est capable de la souffrir pour lui-même.

    La souffrance est la légitimité.

    La souffrance est module par la tolérance. La perfection rend fondamentalement intolérant au mal et c’est ce différentiel qui explique pourquoi Micael a souffert plus que nous tous réunis et donc sa totale légitimité sur ce grand monde.

    En France, on dit que ce n’est pas le monde des bisounours. https://youtu.be/6U4VOWuMdyc?si=3l54VryNpXYmZWat

    Translator app:

    So why is there not (or a relative) legitimacy through wisdom?

    … rather than making the Master of a universe go through the sufferings of the similarity of mortal flesh?

    Because suffering is the condition of imperfection and no one has the right to demand the suffering of others if they are not capable of enduring it for themselves.

    Suffering is legitimacy.

    Suffering is moderated by tolerance. Perfection is fundamentally intolerant of evil, and this differential explains why Micael suffered more than all of us combined, thus his total legitimacy in this great world.

    In France, we say that this is not the world of care bears.”

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  14. “Suffering is moderated by tolerance. Perfection is fundamentally intolerant of evil, and this differential explains why Micael suffered more than all of us combined, thus his total legitimacy in this great world.”

    It is likely there is a translation gap from the original post to the translator version above to be considered.

    Is suffering reduced or “moderated” by our endurance or tolerance??  There are those who must endure situational and unavoidable suffering and nothing, truly, can be done by such victims of circumstance over which they have no influence or control.

    I think the message of the Papers is that our Deity Connections and spirituality and love are the only succor and shelter that delivers true relief in such times.  What overcomes despair and hopelessness or endless agonies?  What gives peace and strength and courage to overcome and tame such suffering?

    I cannot say…and do not know how our beloved fellows tolerate such intolerable suffering…without knowing love and the certainty of God’s grace and personal affection and the eternal adventure to come.  Surely such a one must have a reality perspective with eternal light at the end of this world’s dark tunnel or a Paradise horizon and certainty of personal triumph and destiny.

    Certainly not all suffering should be endured or tolerated at all I do not think.  Is the suffering of slavery or hunger or injustice “moderated by tolerance”?  It is one thing to tolerate our own unavoidable suffering, but it is quite another to be blind to or ignore or tolerate the sufferings of others.

    Suffering is always an opportunity for better and wiser choices, either by the individual who suffers or the community where suffering is found.  Should we tolerate the suffering of others?  It seems today, oddly enough considering social/global digital connectivity, it is far too easy to tolerate evil and suffering.  Collectively we appear blind and indifferent to obvious suffering that simple compassion and social priorities should easily overcome.

    I wonder if suffering should ever be tolerated prior to being obliterated by caring and sharing and promoting the Golden Rule?

    I don’t think perfection is “intolerant of evil” but is, rather, simply without evil.  If there is error or any form of imperfection then there is not perfection.  But, obviously, perfection is tolerant of the imperfection and inherent errors (evil) of perfecting.

    God created perfecting as well as perfection.

    The Urantia Papers teach us that the repercussions of evil are limited and bound within time.  Perfection can tolerate the imperfections of perfecting because suffering those repercussions only exist in time and imperfection, and there only locally and temporally (or temporarily).

    Evidently, our temporal sufferings do have eternal effects and those who endure and overcome the greatest suffering by their personal spiritization are great gifts to both perfecting AND perfection.  The greatest compassion for others comes forth from those souls who experience both suffering and it’s true relief and release by the power of the Spirit within.

    Or so I understand…

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  15. “Because suffering is the condition of imperfection and no one has the right to demand the suffering of others if they are not capable of enduring it for themselves.”

    Hmmm…no being, Deity, Divine, or Celestials “demand the suffering of others”.  Doesn’t happen.  As has been explained extensively here by text quotes, God must allow (but does not impose, require, nor demand) the repercussions of freewill, if freewill and personality are to realize their potential and progressive evolutionary and experiential perfecting by freewill.

    God demands freewill, not suffering.   How can God prevent suffering and also bestow freewill to imperfect, perfecting beings, whose experiential wisdom is an irreplaceable jewel in the crown of creation and perfection itself?  The realization and actualization of potential is not otherwise attained but perfection demands and requires the contribution of experiential perfecting.

    This is such an important point and teaching of the Papers!!

    It is true the Creator Sons do live through 7 incarnations of the lower order local universe beings in order to gain their own experiential wisdom and to become even more sympathetic and merciful in their roles as creators and administrators in the  evolutionary creations of time and space.

    21:4.6 (240.2)Creator Sons, subsequent to the completion of their bestowal careers, are reckoned as a separate order, sevenfold Master Sons. In person the Master Sons are identical with the Creator Sons, but they have undergone such a unique bestowal experience that they are commonly regarded as a different order. When a Creator deigns to effect a bestowal, a real and permanent change is destined to take place. True, the bestowal Son is still and none the less a Creator, but he has added to his nature the experience of a creature, which forever removes him from the divine level of a Creator Son and elevates him to the experiential plane of a Master Son, one who has fully earned the right to rule a universe and administer its worlds. Such beings embody all that can be secured from divine parentage and embrace everything to be derived from perfected-creature experience. Why should man bemoan his lowly origin and enforced evolutionary career when the very Gods must pass through an equivalent experience before they are accounted experientially worthy and competent finally and fully to rule over their universe domains!

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  16. It is one thing to tolerate our own unavoidable suffering, but it is quite another to be blind to or ignore or tolerate the sufferings of others.

    This Is how I see it.

     

    1. Suffering experienced by an individual person, due to many causes, such as: accidents, inheritances, traumas, breakdowns, addictions, other mishigas. I’m talking about individual and personal suffering – personal pain, anguish, grief, torment, despair, whatever the cause/s.  It includes your personal suffering, due to you watching someone else whom you know and love suffer.  It’s very personal.

    .

     2.  Group suffering, due to accidents, war, earthquakes, weather, intolerance, bigotry, famine, fires, and so on. Some of the causes of group suffering seem to be beyond the the scope of man to prevent. Train wrecks cause group suffering. As an individual though, and I speak for myself, I suffer to see starved children. I suffer to see buildings collapse on people and torrents of water pull people under. Even if it is not personal to me, I feel it. We live on a mixed up world.

     

    Based on my experience, it is easy to become self-absorbed when personally suffering. I think it is easy to look away from the sight of others who suffer. It’s too painful.

     

    Now I’m going to tell you about something I learned many years ago in order to make a point about group suffering.

     

    I lived in the countryside with two of my daughters. On the property was a good sized pond of water which was partly bounded by a winding country road. In front of my dwelling was a good sized ravine full of willows, brambles and other vegetation. From where I lived surrounded by trees, I could not see the road. If a car were headed southbound, it would have to come over a small hill and swerve, as the road curved in the downhill approach to the next stretch of road which stretched past my property and beyond to a 90° curve and to the next bit of road.  At that time there were no road signs, no barriers, no lights, no warnings about the terrain or about upcoming curves.

     

    Friday nights and Saturday nights were the worst nights. I would suddenly be awakened by the screech of tires followed by the sound of a crash. I could see nothing, but I could hear whether the crash were to my left (the pond curve) or to the right. Then I’d call 911. They always asked me if anyone were injured. I had no idea. But the fire truck and paramedics always came. I watched their lights through the trees.  This happened over and over and over again. Sometimes I saw the fire truck go slowly with a searchlight looking to see where the crash happened. I began to feel embarrassed to call 911, because it seemed like so many awful sounding crashes were no big deal. Maybe vehicles got unstuck and drove away. I decided not to call 911 again. I figured my neighbors would call. After that, there were still crashes and fire trucks.

     

    One Friday night around 10 PM I heard a crash and then a splash. I rushed outside through the garden to the tree line and watched the headlights of a vehicle going down in the greenish water. I stood there and watched. Neighbors from the hill across the street rushed down to the water. I heard a splash. He jumped in and pulled someone out and got him to the bank. He shouted to his wife, Give him CPR just lie they do on TV! And he went back into the water to pull out someone else. By this time all was dark in the dark night, until the emergency vehicles arrived.

     

    I learned a couple of things that night. One, it’s not my responsibility to save everyone. Two, other people at the scene will be Good Samaritans to the best of their ability. People, complete strangers, do step up to do heroic things to help others in a crisis – countries help other countries and ordinary people do extraordinary things to help other people like you and me.  It happens every day.

     

    Ordinary people do ordinary things every day to help alleviate the suffering of others.  Caring, compassion, empathy, a smile, a personal visit to someone. These are not extraordinary things.  But to the one who receives your smile or personal visit, it can be immense.

  17. Il n’est pas question de lamentation mais de compréhension.

    Si la compréhension est supralogique, je n’ai rien contre … je dis juste qu’il ne faut pas nous faire avaler qu’il est logique de mettre un enfant dans une pièce vide avec une prise électrique en lui ordonnant de ne pas y mettre les doigts puis de le traiter de luciferien (porteur de lumière et nous dire qu’il convient de toujours chercher la lumière mais attention, ne pas aller vers le porteur de lumière parce que oh là là, c’est très très mal) qui croit à une fausse liberté quand il se voit électrocuté.

    Je veux juste qu’on nous dise honnêtement que nous n’avons pas notre mot à dire et qu’il faut faire ceci et pas cela et cesser de nous faire porter un chapeau trop grand pour nous.

    Ou alors, je suis dans un rêve lucide et absolument libre de faire exactement tout ce que je veux mais cela implique une grande maîtrise de soi pour ne pas créer involontairement son propre malheur mais … jusqu’à quel point ? Qui évalue ? Jusqu’à quand ?

    Combien de temps vais-je encore boire une coupe qui s’apparente plus au tonneau des danaïdes qu’à celle des Champions Fils de Dieu et souffrir d’une laideur ambiante et de lourdeurs indues ?

    “Jusqu’à la lie”, d’accord mais c’est ajouter de la souffrance gratuite que de me dire que c’est logique et de ma faute.

    Être neutre dans une situation inégalitaire, c’est prendre parti.

     

    Me faire savoir que c’est une question de foi et que je souffre pour la bonne cause, alors je me tais, baisse la tête et continue mais cesser de dire qu’en haut, il n’est voulut que mon bien et que “c’est ma faute”. Voilà près de 25 ans que je suis tétraplégique (la tétraplégie en elle-même n’étant pas La plus grande souffrance), ça va être de ma faute encore combien de temps ?

    Non, c’est un chemin de souffrance d’une matière obstinément désobéissante et c’est le jeu, il n’y a rien à en dire.

    Pulchrum nimis ut sit falsus

  18. Il n’est pas question de lamentation mais de compréhension.

    Si la compréhension est supralogique, je n’ai rien contre … je dis juste qu’il ne faut pas nous faire avaler qu’il est logique de mettre un enfant dans une pièce vide avec une prise électrique en lui ordonnant de ne pas y mettre les doigts puis de le traiter de luciferien (porteur de lumière et nous dire qu’il convient de chercher toujours la lumière mais attention, ne pas aller vers le porteur de lumière parce que oh là là, c’est très très mal) qui croit à une fausse liberté quand il se voit électrocuté.

    Je veux juste qu’on nous dise honnêtement que nous n’avons pas notre mot à dire et qu’il faut faire ceci et pas cela et cesser de nous faire porter un chapeau trop grand pour nous.

    Ou alors, je suis dans un rêve lucide et absolument libre de faire exactement tout ce que je veux mais cela implique une grande maîtrise de soi pour ne pas créer involontairement son propre malheur mais … jusqu’à quel point ? Qui importe ? Jusqu’à quand ?

    Combien de temps vais-je encore boire une coupe qui s’apparente plus au tonneau des danaïdes qu’à celle des Champions Fils de Dieu et souffrir d’une laideur ambiante et de lourdes indues ?

    “Jusqu’à la mensonge”, d’accord mais c’est ajouter de la souffrance gratuite que de me dire que c’est logique et de ma faute.

    Être neutre dans une situation inégalitaire, c’est prendre parti.

     

    Me faire savoir que c’est une question de foi et que je souffre pour la bonne cause, alors je me tais, baisser la tête et continuer mais cesser de dire qu’en haut, il n’est voulu que mon bien et que “c’est ma faute”. Voilà près de 25 ans que je suis tétraplégique (la tétraplégie en elle-même n’étant pas La plus grande souffrance), ça va être de ma faute encore combien de temps ?

    Non, c’est un chemin de souffrance d’une matière obstinément désobéissante et c’est le jeu, il n’y a rien à en dire.

    Pulchrum nimis ut sit falsus

  19. Je réponds moi-même à mes interrogations sur la souffrance.

    Le Fils éternel, la spiritualité, c’est l’habitude ?

     

    Pulchrum nimis ut sit falsus

  20. Il n’est pas question de lamentation mais de compréhension. Si la compréhension est supralogique, je n’ai rien contre … je dis juste qu’il ne faut pas nous faire avaler qu’il est logique de mettre un enfant dans une pièce vide avec une prise électrique en lui ordonnant de ne pas y mettre les doigts puis de le traiter de luciferien (porteur de lumière et nous dire qu’il convient de toujours chercher la lumière mais attention, ne pas aller vers le porteur de lumière parce que oh là là, c’est très très mal) qui croit à une fausse liberté quand il se voit électrocuté. Je veux juste qu’on nous dise honnêtement que nous n’avons pas notre mot à dire et qu’il faut faire ceci et pas cela et cesser de nous faire porter un chapeau trop grand pour nous. Ou alors, je suis dans un rêve lucide et absolument libre de faire exactement tout ce que je veux mais cela implique une grande maîtrise de soi pour ne pas créer involontairement son propre malheur mais … jusqu’à quel point ? Qui évalue ? Jusqu’à quand ? Combien de temps vais-je encore boire une coupe qui s’apparente plus au tonneau des danaïdes qu’à celle des Champions Fils de Dieu et souffrir d’une laideur ambiante et de lourdeurs indues ? “Jusqu’à la lie”, d’accord mais c’est ajouter de la souffrance gratuite que de me dire que c’est logique et de ma faute. Être neutre dans une situation inégalitaire, c’est prendre parti. Me faire savoir que c’est une question de foi et que je souffre pour la bonne cause, alors je me tais, baisse la tête et continue mais cesser de dire qu’en haut, il n’est voulut que mon bien et que “c’est ma faute”. Voilà près de 25 ans que je suis tétraplégique (la tétraplégie en elle-même n’étant pas La plus grande souffrance), ça va être de ma faute encore combien de temps ? Non, c’est un chemin de souffrance d’une matière obstinément désobéissante et c’est le jeu, il n’y a rien à en dire.

    Translator app:

    “It is not a question of lamentation but of understanding.

    If the understanding is supralogical, I have nothing against it… I’m just saying that we shouldn’t be swallowed that it’s logical to put a child in an empty room with an electrical outlet and order him not to put his fingers in it and then call him a luciferian (bearer of light) and tell us that we should always look for the light but be careful, not to go to the bearer of light because oh my, it’s very, very bad) who believes in a false freedom when he sees himself electrocuted.

    I just want us to be honestly told that we have no say and that we must do this and not that, and stop making us wear a hat that is too big for us.

    Or, I am in a lucid dream and absolutely free to do exactly what I want but this implies great self-control so as not to involuntarily create one’s own unhappiness but… To what extent? Who evaluates?

    Until when? How much longer will I drink from a cup that resembles more the bottomless pit than that of the Champions, Sons of God, and suffer from an ambient ugliness and undue heaviness? “Until the dregs,” fine, but it adds unnecessary suffering to say that it’s logical and my fault.

    Being neutral in an unequal situation is taking a side. Letting me know that it’s a matter of faith and that I suffer for the right cause, then I keep quiet, lower my head, and continue but stop saying that up there, it is only meant for my good and that “it’s my fault.”

    I’ve been a quadriplegic for nearly 25 years (quadriplegia itself not being the greatest suffering), how much longer will it be my fault? No, it’s a path of suffering from a stubbornly disobedient matter, and that’s the game, there’s nothing more to say about it.”

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

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