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Reflectivity

52 posts · 7 participants · started Sep 11, 2017, 10:18 PM

BradlyParticipant
Sep 23, 2017, 10:09 PM
Well….my prediction came true….and already so….this got real complicated real fast!! Thanks to Bonita, Nigel, and George for adding and adjoining so many pieces of this million piece puzzle (and 500-1000 piece jigsaw puzzles are my personal limit – haha!). I readily admit I don’t understand much of that posted, as much as I am enjoying it and learning thereby. You are presenting material read over and over by me….and I mean ‘over’ as in high altitude with appreciation for but ignorance and confusion of the terrain so far below my altitude of perspective and understanding but so high above my own education, experience, and understanding….personal ignorance is always a good hole to be filled!

Regarding time and Michael’s relationship to it….apparently he is not the only being that moves ‘in’ time in ways mortals have no understanding.

137:4.13 [Part IV]
But this was in no sense a miracle. No law of nature was modified, abrogated, or even transcended. Nothing happened but the abrogation of time in association with the celestial assembly of the chemical elements requisite for the elaboration of the wine. At Cana on this occasion the agents of the Creator made wine just as they do by the ordinary natural processes except that they did it independently of time and with the intervention of superhuman agencies in the matter of the space assembly of the necessary chemical ingredients.

Regarding time, Jesus sent word to Lazarus’s family that his sickness was not unto death…but it was….until it was not! Fifteen minutes before Lazarus breathed his last breath, the TA in service to Jesus notified the TA of Lazarus to stay nearby – this days before the Master’s arrival when he asked where the family had laid the body…the one he said would not die.

I surmise these are both examples of George’s presentation on those “…transcendental levels, or dimensions…”?

Nigel – while the presentation you began on the ‘utility-grid’ of time and space is not specifically related to reflectivity (I do not think), nonetheless I would appreciate further education and illumination on how this grid is built, functions, and is maintained by beings within and beyond time and space. This personal management, design, and power that deliver the functionality of force/energy/organization, in harmony with and balanced by reflectivity’s function and ‘utility’ grid of its own, are very related in my mind, now (thank you), for a greater appreciation and integrated understanding of how our universe operates. I’ve been studying Paper 29 with a whole new appreciation! (But I must confess that it is a new appreciation for frandalanks and dissociators…haha.)

Again, thanks to all. Fascinating. And I encourage you all to get as deep and complex one with another as you may and enjoy such obvious discussion and discovery!!!! I’ll keep up as best I can…but please do go on….regardless of my understanding. It’s great to see big brains buzzing together and enjoying it so much! (Seriously and sincerly.)

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Sep 24, 2017, 12:09 PM

Bradly wrote:

I’m starting with lots of questions and issues as an introduction to research and discussion. Let me add another – how are the psychic circles of mortal spiritization measured? Is the TA the only determiner? I doubt it. I think the reflectivity circuit also measures such progress both before and after TA Fusion…see the quotes above about The Discerner of Spirit and The Solemnity of Trust. Circle progress is measured both quantitatively and qualitatively and there is much to ‘measure’. I would assume that focalized reflectivity is a tool for the progressive measurement of the circles all the way to fusion, the new being to come!

Sorry, I just glossed over this before and didn’t consider it. I would think such a measurement would be accomplished, in part, by the Solemnity of Trust seconaphim, who are members of the reflectivity team. They measure self-mastery which is what the psychic circles are all about. Perhaps the angels of Greatness and Goodness would also participate, among others.
Nigel NunnParticipant
Sep 27, 2017, 5:54 PM
Regarding the quote attributed to Jesus, about surviving mortals achieving identity in a “seven-dimensional universe” ( 1439.5, 130:7.7 ), Bonita wrote:

“Nigel, was Jesus talking about space or reality in that quote? I think he was talking about personality’s ability to function in various reality levels, not space levels. Isn’t space just one of the levels of finite reality?”

The thing about “absolutely ultimate space” ( 1297.6, 118:3.5 ) is that it needs to ACCOMMODATE all those “seven dimensions of self-expression or person-realization” ( 1226.13, 112:1.9 ). What does it imply about space (“a bestowal of Paradise” ( 124.5, 11:7.4 ) that it CAN accommodate ultimate/absonite “pre-echo” actualized manifestations of eventuating reality?

Previously I wrote: “Reflectivity seems somehow to ignore both time-like and space-like separation“. Upon reflection, I think this misses a fascinating aspect. While I envisage the (finite) superuniverses moving like seven membranes of creation, relative to their absonite pre-echo, the central universe — Havona — is simply there. And yet, reflectivity somehow synchronizes absonite observation of supreme evolution. Does this mean that the seven teams of Ancients-of-Days can somehow reflectively observe events at any moment in the evolution of their superuniverse domains, as well as at any location ?!

“The superuniverse headquarters are the abiding places of the Reflective Spirits and the Reflective Image Aids. From this midway position these marvelous beings conduct their tremendous reflectivity operations, thus ministering to the central universe above and to the local universes below.” ( 178.2, 15:10.2 )

Could this mean that reflectivity not only reflects the actual (achieved) state of the evolving supreme aspect of the eventuating “grand universe” (at some moment in time) but also can also reveal (to non-finite administrators) the “echo” part of that absonite pre-echo?

Getting back to the nature of absolutely ultimate ( 1297.6, 118:3.5 ) space, I can see how a philosopher might be tempted to settle for George’s very “reasonable” picture (see above). And following Bonita’s line of thought, I can appreciate that, for a PERSON in relationship with the source and center of Personality, space may seem of little account. This could explain why students might mistake space for some mere finite-supreme level utility. As I mentioned earlier, the concept and fact of absolutely ultimate space is not easy for a philosopher or religionist to pin down. After all, the mathematical form of the cosmic discrimination ( 192.2, 16:6.6 ) offers a completely distinct perspective into reality.

My more literal, alternate view (of seven actual dimensions of space) was encouraged by some papers by Harvard’s Lisa Randall (e.g. link – Relaxing to Three Dimensions ), but such papers require some technical background. However, her 2005 book, link – Warped Passages, does a great job at breaking the ice with regard to imagining the motion of 3-dimensional subspaces relative to a seven dimensional manifold. My simple assumption is that what we call “time” is literally caused by the motion of our measurable 3-space relative to the (N-dimensional) bestowal of Paradise. Whether this 3-space is actually part of the complicated spacetime “faintly glimpsed” ( 2078.8, 195:7.5 ) by Einstein, or a Euclidean slice in relativistic flight through the absonite, is something I expect to be speculating about for eons to come!!

Bonita wrote:

“I guess my concern about those extra dimensions is the role of matter in space. Do you think morontia is another dimension?”

No, not in the sense of another “dimension of space”. I imagine morontia material to be an ingenious way of arranging energies WITHIN a tiny finite slice of absolutely ultimate space, part of the necessary technique for salvaging us from death.

Bonita also wrote:

“So why doesn’t time make it to the list of transcendental reality in quote 105:7.3? I think that quote is referring to the Ultimate level of reality […]”

Indeed it IS! As I understand it, space is the (“absolutely ultimate“) stage within which that “Ultimate level of reality” is eventuating. Once again ( 1297.6, 118:3.5 )

“Space comes the nearest of all nonabsolute things to being absolute. Space is apparently absolutely ultimate. [ … ]”

Bradley, I blame you for all this

Nigel
BonitaParticipant
Sep 27, 2017, 9:04 PM

Nigel Nunn wrote:

the “echo” part of that absonite pre-echo?

What is an absonite pre-echo?

Nigel Nunn wrote:

Bonita wrote: “I guess my concern about those extra dimensions is the role of matter in space. Do you think morontia is another dimension?” No, not in the sense of another “dimension of space”. I imagine morontia material to be an ingenious way of arranging energies WITHIN a tiny finite slice of absolutely ultimate space, part of the necessary technique for salvaging us from death.

But that’s not what I asked. I asked if morontia is another dimension. I did not ask if it is another dimension OF SPACE. The point I was trying to make is that to us now living, the morontia level is another dimension of existence (we cannot perceive it), yet it exists within the same space as all other reality. Even absonity (another dimension we cannot perceive) exists within space, while functioning relative to it. Likewise, Paradise functions prior to space but is located within space.

As I see it, subject to change at any moment, multiple dimensions exist within space without space itself being multidimensional. That is, of course, much dependent upon how you use the word dimension. Space does indeed have dimensions, meaning it is delimited; it has boundaries. There are also many levels of space, but I don’t think they are referred to as dimensions, neither are the zones of space. Least I can tell, that is . . . don’t have total recall unfortunately.

I’m curious Nigel, why do you think the morontia level of reality only occupies a tiny slice of space? It’s my understanding that a great deal of the seven superuniverses consist of morontia reality. Isn’t that huge?

Nigel Nunn wrote:

Does this mean that the seven teams of Ancients-of-Days can somehow reflectively observe events at any moment in the evolution of their superuniverse domains, as well as at any location ?!

I don’t understand the question. Is it rhetorical? By location do you mean outer space levels? If so, no. Reflectivity is limited to the seven super universes. Are you asking if one superuniverse can observe reflectivity from another superuniverse? Not following.

(105.1) 9:7.1 The Conjoint Actor is able to co-ordinate all levels of universe actuality in such manner as to make possible the simultaneous recognition of the mental, the material, and the spiritual. This is the phenomenon of universe reflectivity, that unique and inexplicable power to see, hear, sense, and know all things as they transpire throughout a superuniverse, and to focalize, by reflectivity, all this information and knowledge at any desired point. The action of reflectivity is shown in perfection on each of the headquarters worlds of the seven superuniverses. It is also operative throughout all sectors of the superuniverses and within the boundaries of the local universes. Reflectivity finally focalizes on Paradise.

(105.2) 9:7.2 The phenomenon of reflectivity, as it is disclosed on the superuniverse headquarters worlds in the amazing performances of the reflective personalities there stationed, represents the most complex interassociation of all phases of existence to be found in all creation. Lines of spirit can be traced back to the Son, physical energy to Paradise, and mind to the Third Source; but in the extraordinary phenomenon of universe reflectivity there is a unique and exceptional unification of all three, so associated as to enable the universe rulers to know about remote conditions instantaneously, simultaneously with their occurrence.
George ParkParticipant
Sep 28, 2017, 7:38 PM

Nigel Nunn wrote:

My more literal, alternate view (of seven actual dimensions of space) was encouraged by some papers by Harvard’s Lisa Randall (e.g. link – Relaxing to Three Dimensions ), but such papers require some technical background…. My simple assumption is that what we call “time” is literally caused by the motion of our measurable 3-space relative to the (N-dimensional) bestowal of Paradise.

The reasoning behind your speculation that there are “seven actual dimensions of space” apparently comes from (is encouraged by) the work of Lisa Randall, a theoretical particle physicist. Why did you select this work instead of her 5 dimensional Randall-Sundrum model? Why is her model superior to the numerous versions of string theory, which have anywhere from 10 to 26 dimensions? This sort of abstract metaphysical speculation about the reality of space by mathematical physicists goes on all the time. Why do you think her idea of 7 spatial dimensions is so much more credible than all of the many other speculative theories? As far as I’m aware, the general scientific consensus about the space of the universe among astrophysicists is that it is three-dimensional.

Revelation describes the form of the universe in terms of three-dimensional space: The master universe contains multiple concentrically arranged, elliptically shaped space levels which are in eternal revolution about Paradise. This three-dimensional space is the space of Euclidean geometry, the space we can imagine, what astrophysicists refer to as flat spacetime (as opposed to the curved spacetime described by general relativity.) This revealed insight into the nature of universal space is consistent with the most current and exacting scientific analysis of universal space reported in 2013 at the end of the Planck Mission, which I mentioned in a previous post. The last paragraph in the section on the spacetime curvature in this report reaches a very definite conclusion that leaves very little wiggle room for speculation. It reads:

In summary, there is no evidence from Planck for any departure from a spatially ﬂat geometry. The results of (the equations) suggest that our Universe is spatially ﬂat to an accuracy of better than a percent.

In arriving at this conclusion, the astrophysicists on the Planck Mission team rely exclusively upon the mathematical form of cosmic discrimination, to use your phrase, so none of the philosophical or religious influences you mention in your post have any influence upon their thinking. Nevertheless, there is close agreement between revelation and science on the three-dimensionality of master universe space. This seems to effectively exclude the idea of “seven actual dimensions of space” on both a scientific and revelatory basis.

I am left wondering by your post where the idea of “N-dimensional” Paradise comes from, if by this ambiguous phrase you are implying the existence of more than three dimensions. As you note, we are told that three-dimensional space is a bestowal of Paradise; that is, the absolute reality of Paradise is the source from which three-dimensional space is bestowed. We are also definitively informed that Paradise does not exist in space or time. “On Paradise, time and space are nonexistent; the time-space status of Paradise is absolute.” 0:1.13 However, despite the fact that Paradise does not exist in space, it still has a three-dimensional form which can be measured.

It is definitely ellipsoid, being one-sixth longer in the north-south diameter than in the east-west diameter. The central Isle is essentially flat, and the distance from the upper surface to the nether surface is one tenth that of the east-west diameter. 11:2.2

The definite geometric form of Paradise has a real three-dimensional relationship with the universe, since this form establishes absolute direction in the universe.

These differences in dimensions, taken in connection with its stationary status and the greater out-pressure of force-energy at the north end of the Isle, make it possible to establish absolute direction in the master universe. 11:2.3

Paradise does not exist in space, but it does have an absolute location relative to the space of the master universe, and the absolute direction to Paradise can be determined from any location within space. The reality of absolute direction in the universe necessarily requires the existence of an absolute three-dimensional universe frame centered on Paradise. Space is a subinfinite transcendental reality which exists relative to the absolute three-dimensionality of Paradise. In the bestowal of space by Paradise, something real emerges (eventuates) which “contains and conditions motion … even moves” relative to the infinite universe frame of Paradise three-dimensionality, which is absolutely stationary.

One speculation about the bestowal of space by Paradise is that the three-dimensional nature of space comes from the absolute form of Paradise and the temporal nature of space comes from absolute and relative motions occurring with respect to Paradise.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 1, 2017, 1:07 PM

Bradly wrote:

However, I still wonder about whether sin and iniquity, being a form of unreality and potential poison, are actually reflected?

I’ve been thinking about this ever since you brought it up, Bradly. I’m not sure of the answer, but I read that, “Everything of import transpiring on a local universe headquarters is inherently reflected to the capital of its superuniverse.”(201.6) 17:3.8 Does everything of import mean both good and bad, right and wrong? It’s possible, given what we know about Lucifer’s situation, that this is the case. Then elsewhere we’re told that, “Everything of true spiritual value is registered in duplicate, and one impression is preserved in the personal equipment of some member of one of the numerous orders of secoraphic personalities belonging to the vast staff of the Reflective Spirits.”(201.3) 17:3.5 Perhaps it is that everything that happens is reflected but only that which has spirit value is recorded for posterity?
BonitaParticipant
Oct 1, 2017, 1:29 PM

George Park wrote:

One speculation about the bestowal of space by Paradise is that the three-dimensional nature of space comes from the absolute form of Paradise and the temporal nature of space comes from absolute and relative motions occurring with respect to Paradise.

I like this idea. Paradise is pre-space, and the theoretical eventuation of space resulted in motion (respiration), in and out, which provides another dimension. But what about midspace? Midspace comes in actual contact with Paradise, incapsulates all of space, but doesn’t move, as far as I can tell. What’s up with that? Why isn’t midspace part of space? Is it the transition zone between pre-space and space, pre-time and time? I have to say I never bothered to study that.
George ParkParticipant
Oct 1, 2017, 4:43 PM

Bonita wrote:

I like this idea. Paradise is pre-space, and the theoretical eventuation of space resulted in motion (respiration), in and out, which provides another dimension. But what about midspace? Midspace comes in actual contact with Paradise, incapsulates all of space, but doesn’t move, as far as I can tell. What’s up with that? Why isn’t midspace part of space? Is it the transition zone between pre-space and space, pre-time and time? I have to say I never bothered to study that.

Midspace is described as “the transition zone from time to eternity.” (12:5.4) Midspace is not part of space, but we are informed that space is a modification of midspace, which completely encompasses the space of the master universe.

Even space itself is but an ultimate condition, a condition of qualification within the relative absoluteness of the quiet zones of midspace. 106:7.7

Paradise is the actually motionless nucleus of the relatively quiescent zones existing between pervaded and unpervaded space. Geographically these zones appear to be a relative extension of Paradise, but there probably is some motion in them. 11:7.2

Space is absolutely ultimate, but it is not more than ultimate; it moves relative to Paradise, but it does not extend beyond the ultimate borders of the master universe. Midspace is relatively motionless with respect to Paradise (“there is probably some motion”) and encompasses the master universe. Midspace is something more than an ultimate reality but something less than an absolute one. It would seem that midspace is first bestowed by Paradise pre-space (I rather like your turn of phrase for the infinitely extended three-dimensionality of Paradise) and then relatively motionless midspace is qualified by Paradise to eventuate the movable space of the master universe.

A common characteristic of infinite pre-space, relatively absolute midspace, and transcendental space is three-dimensionality. Static pre-space contains relatively motionless midspace and midspace contains movable space. Pre-space is unqualifiedly eternal, midspace is relatively eternal, and space is temporal; “Space is measured by time.” (130:7.6) Although, in trying to make logical sense of this sequence by writing “relatively eternal,” I’m not exactly sure what this really means.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 1, 2017, 5:22 PM

George Park wrote: . . . I’m not exactly sure what this really means.

And with that I can certainly agree!

So I’m not really sure I understand everything you said . . . are you saying pre-space, mid-space, and space are three dimensions of total space? Or are they merely three zones or levels of total space? I do agree with what I think you said (could be wrong), that the universe is three dimensional when it comes to the finite.

And . . . if midspace is the transition zone between time and eternity, is it also the transition zone between finite and infinity?

One more . . . I’ve often wondered what this quote means:

112:1.12 Much trouble experienced by mortals in their study of human personality could be avoided if the finite creature would remember that dimensional levels and spiritual levels are not co-ordinated in experiential personality realization.

What exactly do they mean by dimensional levels and spiritual levels, what do they have to do with personality, and how are they “not coordinated”? I ask because I don’t think this quote nor Nigel’s pet quote about the seven dimensions of personality realization (112:1.9) have anything whatsoever to do with space . . . or reflectivity for that matter . . . so I blame Nigel for this, not Bradly ???? )

Oh heck Bradly, I did try to bring this all back to reflectivity two posts ago, but alas . . . . glad you’re patient with us.????
Nigel NunnParticipant
Oct 1, 2017, 6:12 PM
Bonita asked:

“What is an absonite pre-echo?”

Good question. This concept appears in 105:7, “Eventuation of Transcendentals” ( 1159.6, 105:7.1 )

(1159.6, 105:7.1) “[…] From the creature standpoint, that which is transcendental would appear to have eventuated as a consequence of the finite; from the eternity viewpoint, in anticipation of the finite; and there are those who have considered it as a “pre-echo” of the finite.”

The “echo” would be that which “eventuates as a consequence of” finite-supreme actualization; the “pre” part of such a pre-echo would be the master architects sketching out the nature of the foundations their post-master universe plans require ( 1170.1, 106:7.8 ),

(1170.1, 106:7.8) “At the inconceivably distant future eternity moment of the final completion of the entire master universe, no doubt we will all look back upon its entire history as only the beginning, simply the creation of certain finite and transcendental foundations… “

These two statements illustrate beautifully how the Urantia Book presents a larger frame in which to think. The issue is that so few readers have yet noticed this breathtaking backdrop upon which the revelatory commission sketched their finite descriptions.

Bonita asked:

“I’m curious Nigel, why do you think the morontia level of reality only occupies a tiny slice of space? It’s my understanding that a great deal of the seven superuniverses consist of morontia reality. Isn’t that huge?”

Ah, I think I see the problem: in the personal, social, experiential domain, the values encapsulated in the morontia “woof” (0:5.12) of superuniverse energies are mind-bogglingly complex; but to an astronomer measuring (physical) space, the entire superuniverse space level (i.e. the “grand” universe) is a vanishingly small kernel at the heart of that “master” universe” referred to above.

Regarding the sort of “dimensions” that reflectivity transcends, that book by Lisa Randall does a good job of setting up appropriate definitions for the sort of discussion we are attempting here.

With regard to this “pre-echo” concept, I asked:

“Does this mean that the seven teams of Ancients-of-Days can somehow reflectively observe events at any moment in the evolution of their superuniverse domains, as well as at any location ?!”

Bonita replied:

“I don’t understand the question. Is it rhetorical? By location do you mean outer space levels? If so, no. Reflectivity is limited to the seven super universes. Are you asking if one superuniverse can observe reflectivity from another superuniverse? Not following.”

Bonita, by location, I meant any point in the space of their respective superuniverse domain; by any moment in the evolution of said domain, I meant any moment between that “pre” and “echo“. You can see the problem: from the Father’s absolute perspective, all supreme-level potentials are actuals. Thus in this unimaginable sense, the Father knows the perfected state of Michael’s Nebadon. Hence my question: as Supreme Trinity Personalities ( 208.7 18:2.2 ), how much of this eternal trinity perspective do the Ancients of Days share? Does reflectivity via Havona make available to them knowledge of the perfected state of Nebadon?

Clearly, the UB idea of transcendental subabsolute absonites being pre-echoes of finite realities does take a little reflection,

( 7.6, 0:4.8 ) “[…] Subabsolute realities are projected on two levels: Absonites — realities which are relative with respect to both time and eternity. Finites — realities which are projected in space and are actualized in time.

Regarding the actual nature of space, Bonita asked:

“But what about midspace? Midspace comes in actual contact with Paradise, incapsulates all of space, but doesn’t move, as far as I can tell. What’s up with that? Why isn’t midspace part of space? Is it the transition zone between pre-space and space, pre-time and time? I have to say I never bothered to study that.”

George, with regard to your comments and questions, I’d suggest further reflection on Bonita’s (perfectly timed) question. Once we consider midspace (a “relative extension of Paradise”), our assumptions about what we think we know start to soften.

Regarding the assumptions woven into that Planck report, recall that the microwave background is assumed to be a surface of last scattering a mere 14 billion years old. As I understand the UB, Michael of Nebadon had finished training his Lanonandeks way before that. If so, then every assumption in that Planck report (e.g. red-shifting that surface to microwaves) melts away.

Which, for cosmologists, means we are in interesting times

Thanks for this excellent discussion,

Nigel
BonitaParticipant
Oct 1, 2017, 6:58 PM

Nigel Nunn wrote:

Hence my question: as Supreme Trinity Personalities ( 208.7 18:2.2 ), how much of this eternal trinity perspective do the Ancients of Days share? Does reflectivity via Havona make available to them knowledge of the perfected state of Nebadon?

Oh, okay. So you want to know if reflectivity can make available all past, present and future occurrences and possibilities . . . the ability to see the work already completed, already perfected, all the available potentials made actual? Well, so far I haven’t read anything that says that, but I’m still reading. I think reflectivity is about actualities rather than potentialities . . . but I could be wrong, still studying this.

Nigel Nunn wrote:

The “echo” would be that which “eventuates as a consequence of” finite-supreme actualization; the “pre” part of such a pre-echo would be the master architects sketching out the nature of the foundations their post-master universe plans require ( 1170.1, 106:7.8 ),

So, to help me understand, are you saying that all transcendentals are absonite? Another question: Why wouldn’t a pre-echo be absolute, the original first ‘sound’ be absonite and the echo be finite? I would think transcendentals are the fulfillment of the maximum potential of finites while still being subabsolute.
George ParkParticipant
Oct 1, 2017, 8:50 PM

Bonita wrote:

…are you saying pre-space, mid-space, and space are three dimensions of total space? Or are they merely three zones or levels of total space? I do agree with what I think you said (could be wrong), that the universe is three dimensional when it comes to the finite.

My thought is that Paradise pre-space and midspace are three-dimensional in the same way that finite space is three-dimensional. This seems to follow from the fact that Paradise has a definite geometric form, even though it does not exist in space. However, these different “spaces” co-exist in the same “place” but on different levels of reality: pre-space is absolute and actually infinite; midspace is relatively absolute and potentially infinite; master universe space is transcendental and ultimate in extent; grand universe space is finite and supreme in extent. What finally distinguishes these different levels of three-dimensionality is the nature of time on each, and time changes according to motion relative to Paradise.

Time comes by virtue of motion and because mind is inherently aware of sequentiality. From a practical viewpoint, motion is essential to time… 12:5.1

There are seven different conceptions of space as it is conditioned by time. Space is measured by time, not time by space. 130:7.6

I think the “seven dimensions of personality realization” refer to spiritual (vertical depth), mindal (breadth), and material (length) dimensions of personal experience on finite, absonite, and absolute levels of reality. I don’t think they refer to seven actual spatial dimensions.
George ParkParticipant
Oct 1, 2017, 9:19 PM

Nigel Nunn wrote:

Regarding the assumptions woven into that Planck report, recall that the microwave background is assumed to be a surface of last scattering a mere 14 billion years old.

Nigel, if you will take the time to review their work, you will discover their mathematically based conclusion that universe spacetime is flat does not assume the CMB radiation has any specific age, such as 13.8 billion years. Neither does it require any assumptions about what or how this radiation is originally emitted. It only looks at how this highly uniform radiation should appear to us after passing through space with a particular type of geometry, which they definitely determine is Euclidean.

Given the high level of credibility which virtually all astrophysicists attribute to this finding from the Planck Mission, perhaps it is time to reconsider your assumptions about the universe having seven spatial dimensions.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 1, 2017, 9:53 PM

George Park wrote:

There are seven different conceptions of space as it is conditioned by time. Space is measured by time, not time by space. 130:7.6

Great quote! It states there are seven conceptions, not seven dimensions, of space. Don’t conceptions have to do with mind and consciousness? The ability to perceive and understand all seven is possible only if considering the elliptic symmetry of all reality and the curvature of all relation concepts (103:6.14) which result in circular simultaneity (130:7.5). It appears to be a mind thing.
George ParkParticipant
Oct 2, 2017, 4:16 PM
Bonita wrote:

… there are seven conceptions, not seven dimensions, of space. Don’t conceptions have to do with mind and consciousness? The ability to perceive and understand all seven is possible only if considering the elliptic symmetry of all reality and the curvature of all relation concepts (103:6.14) which result in circular simultaneity (130:7.5). It appears to be a mind thing.

You offer a valuable insight here, I think. There are seven different conceptions of three-dimensional space, as conditioned by seven different perceptions of time, and the perception of time certainly depends upon the level of mind; it is “a mind thing.” The level of mind depends, in turn, upon its association with spirit, which has a different perception of time than does mind.

Spirit-perceived time—insight into motion Godward and the awareness of the motion of ascent to levels of increasing divinity. 12:5.8

Spirit is cognizant of ascending levels of time consciousness which condition the conception of space. It recognizes the possibility of motion from the finite level of time-space to the absolute level of eternal Paradise. Your reference to the relationship between the linear sequence of time and the circular simultaneity of eternity is an illustration of how time perception changes as man ascends toward higher levels of spiritual mindedness.

…to man, because of his sectional and circumscribed view, time appears as a succession of events; but as man ascends, as he progresses inward, the enlarging view of this event procession is such that it is discerned more and more in its wholeness. That which formerly appeared as a succession of events then will be viewed as a whole and perfectly related cycle; in this way will circular simultaneity increasingly displace the onetime consciousness of the linear sequence of events. 130:7.5

While Jesus gives a clear explanation, it is still quite difficult to relate our perception of the linear sequence of temporal events to the circular simultaneity of eternity events; to associate spirit-perceived time and mind-perceived time in personal experience.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 2, 2017, 6:22 PM
Thanks George. They do tell us that we humans, while living in the flesh, change our time perception as we mature. The following quotes give us a glimpse into how maturity leads to the elliptic symmetry of all reality, the curvature of all relation concepts resulting in circular simultaneity.

118:1.5 In the maturity of the developing self, the past and future are brought together to illuminate the true meaning of the present. As the self matures, it reaches further and further back into the past for experience, while its wisdom forecasts seek to penetrate deeper and deeper into the unknown future. And as the conceiving self extends this reach ever further into both past and future, so does judgment become less and less dependent on the momentary present. In this way does decision-action begin to escape from the fetters of the moving present, while it begins to take on the aspects of past-future significance.

118:18 The time unit of immaturity concentrates meaning-value into the present moment in such a way as to divorce the present of its true relationship to the not-present–the past-future. The time unit of maturity is proportioned so to reveal the co-ordinate relationship of past-present-future that the self begins to gain insight into the wholeness of events, begins to view the landscape of time from the panoramic perspective of broadened horizons, begins perhaps to suspect the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time.

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BradlyParticipant
Oct 3, 2017, 5:18 PM

Bonita wrote:

George Park wrote:

There are seven different conceptions of space as it is conditioned by time. Space is measured by time, not time by space. 130:7.6

Great quote! It states there are seven conceptions, not seven dimensions, of space. Don’t conceptions have to do with mind and consciousness? The ability to perceive and understand all seven is possible only if considering the elliptic symmetry of all reality and the curvature of all relation concepts (103:6.14) which result in circular simultaneity (130:7.5). It appears to be a mind thing.

I look forward to tying these concepts to the functionality of reflectivity…..how are time and space related to the collection and transfer of data by reflectivity? I agree that mind transcends both time and space…the more spiritized and experienced, the more mind itself can be independent of either/both. And the relationship of the Creator Sons and the Creative Spirit to both time and space is a fascinating harmonization of local universe balance. While I like the idea of “seven different conceptions” of space as conditioned by “time” – further in the same text of 130:7 we also read confirmation of seven dimensions:

130:7.7 (1439.5) It must be apparent that universal reality has an expanding and always relative meaning on the ascending and perfecting levels of the cosmos. Ultimately, surviving mortals achieve identity in a seven-dimensional universe.

Bonita wrote:

Nigel Nunn wrote: Hence my question: as Supreme Trinity Personalities ( 208.7 18:2.2 ), how much of this eternal trinity perspective do the Ancients of Days share? Does reflectivity via Havona make available to them knowledge of the perfected state of Nebadon?

Bonita: Oh, okay. So you want to know if reflectivity can make available all past, present and future occurrences and possibilities . . . the ability to see the work already completed, already perfected, all the available potentials made actual? Well, so far I haven’t read anything that says that, but I’m still reading. I think reflectivity is about actualities rather than potentialities . . . but I could be wrong, still studying this.

I don’t know about the reflectivity of the future but past and present to be sure – and if time or time within eternity also includes something we call the future, then those minds with such dimensionality should also be able to utilize reflectivity to share that with other minds of such dimensionality. I recall that the great pageants performed and reversion are both aided by reflectivity and that reflectivity can be ‘focalized’ to anywhere and anywhen and any mind with sufficient ability to discern. I’m wondering if it wasn’t reflectivity that ‘took’ John to his vision of personal revelation (‘delivered’ would be a more accurate term than ‘took’ as John did not personally attend this in body – there’s the ‘mind’ thing again Bonita brought up)?

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Oct 3, 2017, 7:57 PM

Bradly wrote:

While I like the idea of “seven different conceptions” of space as conditioned by “time” – further in the same text of 130:7 we also read confirmation of seven dimensions:130:7.7 (1439.5) It must be apparent that universal reality has an expanding and always relative meaning on the ascending and perfecting levels of the cosmos. Ultimately, surviving mortals achieve identity in a seven-dimensional universe.

I think they’re still talking about the seven dimensions of self-expression, person-realization, or identity for personality rather than space dimensions. That would be three on the finite, three on the absonite and one on the absolute universe levels of reality. The finite level is three dimensional, (length,breadth and depth); on the absonite level I would guess there are three brand new transcendental dimensions, and yet another on the absolute level, for seven in all.

Bradly wrote:

I’m wondering if it wasn’t reflectivity that ‘took’ John to his vision of personal revelation (‘delivered’ would be a more accurate term than ‘took’ as John did not personally attend this in body

Are you suggesting that humans can access reflectivity services while in the flesh and without an Adjuster? And without a harp of God? Interesting.
BradlyParticipant
Oct 3, 2017, 10:01 PM
I am suggesting that humans can access reflectivity …..with…an Adjuster’s help as they can avail themselves of the circuit. And that some humans receive personal revelation that is a visualization delivered by reflectivity. I wouldn’t know about without…..do people have personal revelation and a source for that without a TA?

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Oct 3, 2017, 11:01 PM

Bradly wrote:

I am suggesting that humans can access reflectivity …..with…an Adjuster’s help as they can avail themselves of the circuit. And that some humans receive personal revelation that is a visualization delivered by reflectivity. I wouldn’t know about without…..do people have personal revelation and a source for that without a TA?

But John had his vision of the third heaven when he was asleep, while his Adjuster was absent, and when he was presumably being babysat by a midwayer. Are you saying that the Adjuster deliberately used the reflectivity service to project a vision of the mansion world back to John’s material mind? Who made the projection in the following quote, the Adjuster or John? It says the projection was made TO the mansion world, but from where? I don’t understand.

48:6.23 When the apostle spoke of being “caught up to the third heaven,” he referred to that experience in which his Adjuster was detached during sleep and in this unusual state made a projection to the third of the seven mansion worlds.

Would you mind explaining your understanding of the mechanism by which humans have visions by utilizing reflectivity? I haven’t heard that before and I don’t recall reading anything about it, although I’m still studying the subject. Coulda missed it. I did read that ascending mortals cannot access reflectivity without utilizing a person, agent, of reflectivity. I don’t know if they mean ascending sons or faith sons, but regardless, it seems like it’s something we might need to arrange in order to have access to, which is not really possible while in the flesh. And the quote doesn’t mention the Adjuster.

17:4.3 As a class, ascending mortals do not intimately contact with reflectivity. Always some being of the reflective nature will be interposed between you and the actual operation of the service.

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