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Reflectivity

52 posts · 7 participants · started Sep 11, 2017, 10:18 PM

BradlyParticipant
Sep 11, 2017, 10:18 PM
Quotes on “reflectivity”:

https://urassoc.arko.nyc/search/?zoom_sort=2&zoom_query=reflectivity&zoom_per_page=100&zoom_and=0&zoom_cat%5B%5D=-1

Reflectivity covers lots of issues and methods and connects every mind to the source of mind…and all minds to the circuit of reflectivity. The total system even “baffles” the authors of the Papers, including a Divine Counselor of Uversa! Notice the term “focalize” below:

9:7.1 [Part I]
The Conjoint Actor is able to co-ordinate all levels of universe actuality in such manner as to make possible the simultaneous recognition of the mental, the material, and the spiritual. This is the phenomenon of universe reflectivity, that unique and inexplicable power to see, hear, sense, and know all things as they transpire throughout a superuniverse, and to focalize, by reflectivity, all this information and knowledge at any desired point. The action of reflectivity is shown in perfection on each of the headquarters worlds of the seven superuniverses. It is also operative throughout all sectors of the superuniverses and within the boundaries of the local universes. Reflectivity finally focalizes on Paradise.

9:7.2 [Part I]
The phenomenon of reflectivity, as it is disclosed on the superuniverse headquarters worlds in the amazing performances of the reflective personalities there stationed, represents the most complex interassociation of all phases of existence to be found in all creation. Lines of spirit can be traced back to the Son, physical energy to Paradise, and mind to the Third Source; but in the extraordinary phenomenon of universe reflectivity there is a unique and exceptional unification of all three, so associated as to enable the universe rulers to know about remote conditions instantaneously, simultaneously with their occurrence.

This could get complicated….and answer so many questions about so much!! Cheers!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Sep 12, 2017, 12:24 PM
What’s interesting to me is that reflectivity allows the Conjoint Actor to ” . . . see, hear, sense and know all things as they transpire.”(9:7.1) That’s instantaneous and involves sensory input as well as thought generation and actions. What’s more,reflectivity enables ” . . . the universe rulers to know about remote conditions instantaneously, simultaneously with their occurrence.” (9:7.2). That’s twice they state that there’s no time delay, the information is available as it is happening in real time. It doesn’t seem to require someone to flip a switch and turn it on.

In the other thread BB claimed that reflectivity is a two-way operation which requires that the two parties involved cooperate. He stated that Lucifer does not cooperate with reflectivity and therefore it is not possible for anyone to know what he thinks, sees, hears, senses or does by that process. Which means that Lucifer keeps the switch turned off preventing reflectivity. This makes no sense to me.

Reflectivity includes more than just mind. It also includes the material and spiritual levels of reality. Reflectivity unifies all three levels of reality and focuses all of it in Majeston on Paradise (14:6.36; 17:8.7), who is the Chief of Reflectivity (17:1.10; 17:20; 17:2.2-3; 17:8.7).
Van AmadonParticipant
Sep 12, 2017, 1:42 PM
In a non-UB forum I frequent somebody initiated a new topic recently:

Lucifer’s Blessings

This person goes on to say that Lucifer is the deity that he worships.

Of course most of the responders (I won’t waste my time) are the atheist members of this forum who go on to say that like God, Lucifer doesn’t exist.

They want to “help.”

I just want to say that this idiot, Lucifer and his minions are the bottom.

I apologize for interrupting. But all these suggestions that reality isn’t real, really gets me going. To suggest this, is a problem in the world that seems to want to never end.

This thing about Lucifer having a way for his thoughts to not be monitored fits this mold.

Deny, deny, deny, but the truth will prevail.
BradlyParticipant
Sep 12, 2017, 3:12 PM
28:5.19 [Part I]
7. The Discerner of Spirits. A special liaison exists between the counselors and advisers of the second Havona circle and these reflective angels. They are the only seconaphim attached to the Universal Censors but are probably the most uniquely specialized of all their fellows. Regardless of the source or channel of information, no matter how meager the evidence at hand, when it is subjected to their reflective scrutiny, these discerners will forthwith inform us as to the true motive, the actual purpose, and the real nature of its origin. I marvel at the superb functioning of these angels, who so unerringly reflect the actual moral and spiritual character of any individual concerned in a focal exposure.

28:6.13 [Part I]
4. The Solemnity of Trust. Trust is the crucial test of will creatures. Trustworthiness is the true measure of self-mastery, character. These seconaphim accomplish a double purpose in the economy of the superuniverses: They portray to all will creatures the sense of the obligation, sacredness, and solemnity of trust. At the same time they unerringly reflect to the governing authorities the exact trustworthiness of any candidate for confidence or trust.

All minds are subjects of reflectivity and focal exposure! There is no exception. However, I still wonder about whether sin and iniquity, being a form of unreality and potential poison, are actually reflected? Or is just the results of sin embrace on the individual mind so registered (the ‘fade’ effect…less and less of T,B, & G to be reflected)? The more reality embraced is the mind, the more reflectivity occurs? And so the opposite?

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Sep 12, 2017, 3:36 PM
Well, if these reflectivity folks are able to discern true motives and actual purposes, wouldn’t that include erroneous (evil) motives and purposes? I don’t think they mean truth-oriented motives when they use the word “true”. I think they mean according to fact.

Perhaps you’re confusing reflectivity as it involves Majeston with experiential reality as it involves the Supreme Being?
BradlyParticipant
Sep 12, 2017, 4:36 PM
Well….I could be confusing a lot of things….hahahaha!

I’m starting with lots of questions and issues as an introduction to research and discussion. Let me add another – how are the psychic circles of mortal spiritization measured? Is the TA the only determiner? I doubt it. I think the reflectivity circuit also measures such progress both before and after TA Fusion…see the quotes above about The Discerner of Spirit and The Solemnity of Trust. Circle progress is measured both quantitatively and qualitatively and there is much to ‘measure’. I would assume that focalized reflectivity is a tool for the progressive measurement of the circles all the way to fusion, the new being to come!

110:6.3 (1209.3) The psychic circles are not exclusively intellectual, neither are they wholly morontial; they have to do with personality status, mind attainment, soul growth, and Adjuster attunement. The successful traversal of these levels demands the harmonious functioning of the entire personality, not merely of some one phase thereof. The growth of the parts does not equal the true maturation of the whole; the parts really grow in proportion to the expansion of the entire self — the whole self — material, intellectual, and spiritual.

110:6.16 (1211.1) Perhaps these psychic circles of mortal progression would be better denominated cosmic levels — actual meaning grasps and value realizations of progressive approach to the morontia consciousness of initial relationship of the evolutionary soul with the emerging Supreme Being. And it is this very relationship that makes it forever impossible fully to explain the significance of the cosmic circles to the material mind. These circle attainments are only relatively related to God-consciousness. A seventh or sixth circler can be almost as truly God-knowing — sonship conscious — as a second or first circler, but such lower circle beings are far less conscious of experiential relation to the Supreme Being, universe citizenship. The attainment of these cosmic circles will become a part of the ascenders’ experience on the mansion worlds if they fail of such achievement before natural death.

110:6.17 (1211.2) The motivation of faith makes experiential the full realization of man’s sonship with God, but action, completion of decisions, is essential to the evolutionary attainment of consciousness of progressive kinship with the cosmic actuality of the Supreme Being. Faith transmutes potentials to actuals in the spiritual world, but potentials become actuals in the finite realms of the Supreme only by and through the realization of choice-experience. But choosing to do the will of God joins spiritual faith to material decisions in personality action and thus supplies a divine and spiritual fulcrum for the more effective functioning of the human and material leverage of God-hunger. Such a wise co-ordination of material and spiritual forces greatly augments both cosmic realization of the Supreme and morontia comprehension of the Paradise Deities.

110:6.18 (1211.3) The mastery of the cosmic circles is related to the quantitative growth of the morontia soul, the comprehension of supreme meanings. But the qualitative status of this immortal soul is wholly dependent on the grasp of living faith upon the Paradise-potential fact-value that mortal man is a son of the eternal God. Therefore does a seventh circler go on to the mansion worlds to attain further quantitative realization of cosmic growth just as does a second or even a first circler.

110:6.19 (1211.4) There is only an indirect relation between cosmic-circle attainment and actual spiritual religious experience; such attainments are reciprocal and therefore mutually beneficial. Purely spiritual development may have little to do with planetary material prosperity, but circle attainment always augments the potential of human success and mortal achievement.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
GeneParticipant
Sep 12, 2017, 5:01 PM

Bonita wrote:

I can go along with that. Reality (truth) will prevail. And the interesting thing is that the less real something is, the more disorganized it is. Unstable, irrational, illogical thinking (which we so often see on this forum) is merely a symptom of the disease. Sad to know that this type of thing will inevitably end in destruction. Yet these people seem to cling to unreality with such relish! What a sickness.

sorry if this gets off track but this above response by Bonita to the thought, precipitated by Van Amadon takes me to paper 16:6 “the cosmic mind” where we are informed about the three cosmic intuitions and the reality response. Several times in the narrative, “reflective thinking” is mentioned as well as the mind responses to these intuitions that requires clear reasoning and deep thinking.

when we experience a real response to any one of these intuitions, do you think it may be part of the reflectivity process?? The responses are instantaneous, or close enough, only limited by our neural pathways.
BonitaParticipant
Sep 12, 2017, 7:31 PM

Gene wrote:

when we experience a real response to any one of these intuitions, do you think it may be part of the reflectivity process?? The responses are instantaneous, or close enough, only limited by our neural pathways.

I think the reality response has more to do with mind-gravity. I don’t think reflectivity and mind-gravity are the same thing. Mind gravity is the drawing power of mind unity (when things make sense and harmony ensues). Reflectivity registers actuality, which is not necessarily reality. At least that’s my current understanding . . . subject to change at a moment’s notice.

9:6.2 Much as the Father draws all personality to himself, and as the Son attracts all spiritual reality, so does the Conjoint Actor exercise a drawing power on all minds; he unqualifiedly dominates and controls the universal mind circuit. All true and genuine intellectual values, all divine thoughts and perfect ideas, are unerringly drawn into this absolute circuit of mind.
GeneParticipant
Sep 13, 2017, 1:46 PM
How about Edentia’s big crystal, the sea of glass? -Also found on other architectural planets- it serves a thing of beauty, receiving field for transport, energy transformation, adapting incoming energy streams and “reflectivity” portraying superuniverse reflectivity to “assembled” groups.

picking on Edentia, the residence of the the Faithful of Days, who’s residence is the constellation center of the Paradise system of “communication” and intelligence allowing him to stay in contact with his paradise staff and his order throughout the universe – think about this: I assume the sea of glass is for the rank and file in regard to reflective communication and the Faithful of Days has a different circuit?

see paper 43:4.3 and 43:1.11
Nigel NunnParticipant
Sep 13, 2017, 7:42 PM
One thing about reflectivity which really woke me up was the fact that it was a totally unexpected response of the Deity Absolute to the actualization of one aspect of evolutionary potential:

(200.3, 17:2.5) “[…] This will to action was volitional in the Supreme Being, but the stupendous reaction of the Deity Absolute was not foreknown. Not since the eternity-appearance of Havona had the universe witnessed such a tremendous factualization of such a gigantic and far-flung alignment of power and co-ordination of functional spirit activities. The Deity response to the creative wills of the Supreme Being and his associates was vastly beyond their purposeful intent and greatly in excess of their conceptual forecasts.”

This technique, by which “the Conjoint Actor is able to co-ordinate all levels of universe actuality in such manner as to make possible the simultaneous recognition of the mental, the material, and the spiritual” (105.1, 9:7.1) must surely tickle the fancy of any philosopher or cosmologist with sufficient imagination to appreciate the implications: instant awareness of everything with any bearing on, or of interest to, personality in the [inhabited, grand] universe.

Then add to this the fact that something analogous exists in the non-personal domain,

(29:4.37) “[…] They are to the physical universe what the vast reflectivity mechanism is to the minded universe.”

See living barometers (328.6, 29:4.37)

Such coordination of matter, mind and spirit — for the benefit of persons — instantly deepened my interest in all aspects of reality. As Bradly predicted, “this could get complicated”

Nigel
BonitaParticipant
Sep 14, 2017, 12:04 PM
Thanks for that Nigel. Question: Why do you think the commingling of existential (Deity Absolute) and experiential (Supreme Being) in the process of reflectivity is necessary? And why only the personal if reflectivity involves everything? Why not the Unqualified Absolute and the Almighty Supreme?
Nigel NunnParticipant
Sep 14, 2017, 3:29 PM
Bonita wrote:

“Question: Why do you think the commingling of existential (Deity Absolute) and experiential (Supreme Being) in the process of reflectivity is necessary?”

Reflectivity seems somehow to ignore both time-like and space-like separation; and since the authors describe reflectivity as a response by the Deity Absolute, this may mean that reflectivity is a bestowal beyond the capacity of the Ultimate level of Deity? Possibly even something absolutely essential for the achievement of the Father’s true purpose?

“And why only the personal if reflectivity involves everything?”

Maybe because to the Father, as a father, personality is the point of everything else?

(164.1, 15:0.1) “AS FAR as the Universal Father is concerned — as a Father — the universes are virtually nonexistent; he deals with personalities; he is the Father of personalities.”

Regarding how the non-personal potentials of the Unqualified and the Almighty might relate to reflectivity, well, I’m sure any speculation I might dream up would just be embarrassing. Nevertheless, the absolutely transcendent aspects of reflectivity were one of the things that got me so interested in how finite (i.e. time-dependent) things might actually work. I mean, how did the Conjoint Actor manage to make anything dependent on “time”? For example, how does he make it possible for humans to have the time to “pause to consider“? Or to allow photons to have a time-dependent frequency as they flicker through space the way they do?

The fact that reflectivity is absolutely independent of time is almost less miraculous than the fact that we humans DO have time to discover, recognize, interpret and choose. As Bradly said, this gets real complicated real quick!

Nigel
BonitaParticipant
Sep 14, 2017, 4:30 PM
Thanks for the reply Nigel.

Doesn’t time depend on motion? Once physical creation was put into motion, time seems to be an inevitable outcome to me. If the Father doesn’t move, then time is not an issue with him. The Conjoint Actor got things moving.

If reflectivity is independent of time and space and the Supreme Being exists in time and space, perhaps the Deity Absolute is necessary to circumvent that issue?

I like your explanation of personality involvement in reflectivity. I’m curious though, doesn’t reflectivity also involve things, the material level of reality, the non-personal? Another thing I was thinking about is the fact that the reflectivity service is personal; it’s not automatic. They tell us, ” . . . its precision results from perfection of personality co-operation and therefore can hardly be attributed to the impersonal presence-performances of the Absolutes.”(17:3.8)
Nigel NunnParticipant
Sep 16, 2017, 9:15 PM
Bonita wrote:

“If reflectivity is independent of time and space and the Supreme Being exists in time and space, perhaps the Deity Absolute is necessary to circumvent that issue?”

Bonita — exactly! The way I read it, the Supreme and his collaborators achieved everything which was possible for them to achieve with regard to finite awareness and coordination of the space-time domain entrusted to their care. Only “then” did the Deity Absolute respond. And respond in a way those finite agents and administrators could never have anticipated… a grand-universe-wide web of instant awareness and communication.

Since reflectivity has to do with communicating awareness, this brings to mind an analogy. Those time-dependent, space-separated administrators serving in the supreme (space-time) domain put up all the necessary poles and wires to make an old fashioned telephone exchange. Once this finite level of coordination had been achieved, the Deity Absolute upgraded their (extraordinary) achievement with an (unimaginable) 5G mobile broadband system. Complete with those subtle relativistic adjustments (for time dilation) that allow satellite GPS to work. Regarding which, Bonita wrote:

“Doesn’t time depend on motion? Once physical creation was put into motion, time seems to be an inevitable outcome to me. If the Father doesn’t move, then time is not an issue with him. The Conjoint Actor got things moving.”

Again, spot on. The tricky part is how to envision the motion of our measurable 3-space relative to the 7-space Jesus talked about that day in Carthage (see link 130:7.7 ). This business — of the global motions of the bit of space which we can measure — is the primary focus (and stumbling block!) of modern observational cosmology.

Regarding the involvement of persons with reflectivity, Bonita wrote:

“I like your explanation of personality involvement in reflectivity. I’m curious though, doesn’t reflectivity also involve things, the material level of reality, the non-personal? Another thing I was thinking about is the fact that the reflectivity service is personal; it’s not automatic. They tell us, ‘ … its precision results from perfection of personality co-operation and therefore can hardly be attributed to the impersonal presence-performances of the Absolutes.’ (17:3.8)”

“from perfection of personality co-operation” indeed! This really does seem like a service set up by Persons, for persons.

After revealing reflectivity in section 9.7, the authors introduce the “Reflective Spirits” in section 9.8.

(307.4, 28:3.2) “These seconaphim of the superuniverses are the offspring of the Reflective Spirits, and therefore reflectivity is inherent in their nature.”

Hey, I never noticed this before — these secoraphic offspring of the Reflective Spirits, these “ministering spirits of the superuniverses”, are ALL agents of reflectivity! And this bit concerning reflecting the presence of Adjusters is intriguing:

(307.4, 28:3.2) “They are reflectively responsive to all of each phase of every creature of origin in the Third Source and Center and the Paradise Creator Sons, but they are not directly reflective of the beings and entities, personal or otherwise, of sole origin in the First Source and Center.”

However, regarding the secoraphic “Discerners of Spirits”, they write:

(313.4, 28:5.22) “The discerners can and do reflect the presence of the Adjusters (and the Censors pronounce them divine), but they cannot decipher the content of the mindedness of the Mystery Monitors.”

Plenty to ponder. But then, with regard to the cosmic intuitions, Bonita reflected:

“[…] Reflectivity registers actuality, which is not necessarily reality. […]”

That’s a very neat distinction. As an information sharing service, reflectivity seems to be making accessible everything of interest to those who need to know. For us humans, such information might be awareness of weather and traffic conditions, and things like the emotional state and technical capacity of our colleagues. For supreme-level (finite) administrators, the analogous info might be the energy conditions evolving in certain space lanes, and things like the increasingly destabilizing delusions playing out in Lucifer’s mind.

PS: The thought of a belligerent little Lanonandek refusing to be visible to universe reflectivity is truly funny. In a deeply sad sort of way.

Nigel
BonitaParticipant
Sep 17, 2017, 1:10 PM

Nigel Nunn wrote:

Again, spot on. The tricky part is how to envision the motion of our measurable 3-space relative to the 7-space Jesus talked about that day in Carthage (see link 130:7.7 ). This business — of the global motions of the bit of space which we can measure — is the primary focus (and stumbling block!) of modern observational cosmology.

Nigel, was Jesus talking about space or reality in that quote? I think he was talking about personality’s ability to function in various reality levels, not space levels. Isn’t space just one of the levels of finite reality? The other two being mind and spirit, and spirit is independent of space. In that statement made in Carthage, I always thought Jesus was referring to the fact that personality can ultimately function on all seven levels of reality: three finite; three absonite; and one absolute (112:1.9). Right now our personalities function only on the three levels of finite reality, as explained in 12:8.9, but they potentially function on seven levels. So, are you saying that space has seven dimensions? or personality functions on seven dimensions? Or both?

Nigel Nunn wrote:

And this bit concerning reflecting the presence of Adjusters is intriguing: (307.4, 28:3.2) “They are reflectively responsive to all of each phase of every creature of origin in the Third Source and Center and the Paradise Creator Sons, but they are not directly reflective of the beings and entities, personal or otherwise, of sole origin in the First Source and Center.”

Yeah, I agree. The fact that the Adjusters can avail themselves of the reflectivity circuit but the reflectivity circuit can’t avail itself of the Adjusters is very cool. Also, I think the personality circuit is exclusive of reflectivity but I can’t find a quote saying that. Reflectivity seems to be a function of only the Third Source and Center, yet it can be utilized by all three of the Trinity and their offspring. Interesting too that ascending mortals can never access reflectivity without one of the reflective aids (17:4.3).

Nigel Nunn wrote:

But then, with regard to the cosmic intuitions, Bonita reflected: “[…] Reflectivity registers actuality, which is not necessarily reality. […]” That’s a very neat distinction.

Thanks for picking up on that. It’s something that just recently occurred to me. I’m still pondering the ramifications of that realization myself.

Nigel Nunn wrote:

PS: The thought of a belligerent little Lanonandek refusing to be visible to universe reflectivity is truly funny. In a deeply sad sort of way.

Couldn’t have said it any better myself. I can’t find any quote saying that reflectivity requires permission. Reflectivity doesn’t seem to take free will into consideration, at least as yet I haven’t seen anything to make me believe otherwise.
Van AmadonParticipant
Sep 17, 2017, 2:13 PM
I’ve been pondering actuality and reality lately too. Perhaps that actuality is even greater than reality.

“Reflectivity registers actuality, which is not necessarily reality.”

I can’t wait to hear more from you Nigel and Bonita about this. I’m sure you have more to say.
Nigel NunnParticipant
Sep 18, 2017, 10:10 AM
Bonita wrote:

“Nigel, was Jesus talking about space or reality in that quote? I think he was talking about personality’s ability to function in various reality levels, not space levels.”

Bonita – thanks for thinking so deeply about this. Regarding that seven dimensional statement by Jesus, since it appears in a “Discourse on Time and Space (130:7)“, I can’t help but think of the cosmological implications, in addition to the seven potential dimensions of self-expression or person-realization (112:1.9)

Regarding time, it does seem natural and familiar to think of time as being intimately related to motion. But the concept of space is not so… intuitively accessible. For example, think of a mother racing 10 miles to the hospital in 5 minutes of time. But then she sits motionless for the next 12 hours. In those 12 hours, while not moving relative to her space, she is still moving through time. For me, this hints at the way our larger place in space (Nebadon) may be moving through both time and space.

Think how Michael, as a seven-fold Master Son — and hence involved with the Trinity Ultimate (119:8.6) — has a truly more-than-finite relationship with his creation:

(1318.5, 119:8.6) “… the liberation of his potential for absonite function. Michael, a Creator Son, is a time-space creator, but Michael, a sevenfold Master Son, is a member of one of the divine corps constituting the Trinity Ultimate.”

And then think how Michael, as a Creator Son, has always been somehow independent of time (within his creation), but only at some single place; while the Divine Minister exists ubiquitously throughout Nebadon, but only at some single moment in time. This peculiar arrangement allows Michael and the Divine Minister to nurture Nebadon in almost a more-than-finite way ( 376.6, 34:3.3 ):

“In personal prerogatives a Creative Spirit is wholly and entirely independent of space, but not of time.”

“[…] A Creator Son is not handicapped by time, but he is conditioned by space; […].”

“[…], for when these two function in administrative union, they are practically independent of time and space within the confines of their local creation. […]”

Bonita wrote:

“Isn’t space just one of the levels of finite reality?”

Recall that space is included in that list of VERY non-finite things (1160.2, 105:7.4):

“Among those realities which are associated with the transcendental level are the following:

1. The Deity presence of the Ultimate.
2. The concept of the master universe.
3. The Architects of the Master Universe.
4. The two orders of Paradise force organizers.
5. Certain modifications in space potency.
6. Certain values of spirit.
7. Certain meanings of mind.
8. Absonite qualities and realities.
9. Omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence.
10. Space.”

Clearly, time does not belong in this list. By definition, time is a phenomenon bound up with the “time-dependent” finite domain. Again, in 118:3.5, space is described as something way beyond “finite” constraints ( 1297.6, 118:3.5 ):

“Space comes the nearest of all nonabsolute things to being absolute. Space is apparently absolutely ultimate. [ … ]”

While time may be thought of as relative to motion in space, the motions of space itself, relative to Paradise, are less easy to pin down. Think of that rotated Maltese cross analogy in paper 11:7.3:

( 124.4, 11:7.3 ): “The vertical cross section of total space would slightly resemble a Maltese cross, […]”

( 124.6, 11:7.5 ) “[…], and then visualize this plane in elliptical revolution about Paradise, its revolution would roughly outline the volume of pervaded space.”

Since Paradise, the still point in the turning of this system, is not actually IN space ( 120.2, 11:2.10 ), and since the non-pervaded reservoirs appear to be absolutely distinct from pervaded space, for me, this image conjures up the idea of our entire measurable 3-space moving around Paradise in some “curved space path of lessened resistance to motion” ( 125.2, 11:7.8 )

When we reflect on reflectivity, the actualities and realities being reflected must in all sorts of ways be utterly beyond our imagination. And when the revelators speak of some of their cosmological statements as “standing in need of revision”, one such thing may be the now-pressing need to model actual reality with more than 3 spacelike dimensions. Welcome to my world!

Nigel
BonitaParticipant
Sep 18, 2017, 12:29 PM
Hi Nigel,

No doubt there will be additional dimensions to space in coming universe ages. I guess my concern about those extra dimensions is the role of matter in space. Do you think morontia is another dimension? Physical matter (planets, stars, galaxies, etc.) exists in space, but morontia matter is also in the same space (not position). Morontia matter is different than physical matter, right? Is that a different dimension within the same space which accommodates everything outside of Paradise (yet another dimension). I think space itself doesn’t have multiple dimensions but is capable of potentially accommodating all seven dimensions, that is, if you consider the role of both pervaded and non-pervaded space. For instance, finites are projected into space and condition by time, whereas absonites, another dimension, are also in space but relative to time.(0:4.8) Will there ever be a reality level, other than Paradise, that is relative to space? Right now, I don’t think so, but I admit I’m working on assumptions.

As to Michael and time, I often wonder how it works being independent of time while only in a single space. While on this earth he was never in a single space because the earth is always moving through space, yet somehow that time thing applied. There must be a fudge factor involved. Still pondering that.

In further consideration of time, I recall that consciousness of time is not necessarily motion dependent. Personality has a built in sense of sequentiality, mind also has inherent awareness of both sequence and duration, and spirit perceived time depends on spirit motion (spirit-gravity), something independent of time and space. (12:5.1; 12:5.7-9). We’re told that sequentiality can consciousize time without motion (12:5.5). But when is human personality or mind motionless in this life? Well, I think the body is never motionless, but personality and mind are not body. Mind is capable of functioning on multiple dimensions because it is not entirely time dependent, which is how I think Paul was able to have that vision of the third heaven . . . which was elsewhere in space relative to his body at the time. Maybe I’m getting off track here, not sure. Certainly getting things muddled though.

1. Mind-perceived time—consciousness of sequence, motion, and a sense of duration.

2. Spirit-perceived time—insight into motion Godward and the awareness of the motion of ascent to levels of increasing divinity.

3. Personality creates a unique time sense out of insight into Reality plus a consciousness of presence and an awareness of duration. 12:5.7-9

So why doesn’t time make it to the list of transcendental reality in quote 105:7.3? I think that quote is referring to the Ultimate level of reality which would be a new level of perfection with the emergence of new realities. Isn’t the Ultimate level of perfected reality perfected beyond the level of the Supreme (time and space), which is so far in the future it’s almost incomprehensible. If time and space are perfected in Supremacy, then I can see the need for no more time, if time is required for perfection, but space itself would still have to exist. Otherwise, where would everyone exist?

Another question: why is the absonite level transcendent of both time and space? When mortal personality reaches the three absonite dimensions of functionality, will neither time or space matter? Isn’t absonity a function of ultimacy? That would mean that even with the ability to transcend space, you’re still in space?

Am I confusing you yet?
George ParkParticipant
Sep 19, 2017, 7:55 PM

Bonita wrote:

I think space itself doesn’t have multiple dimensions but is capable of potentially accommodating all seven dimensions…

You present a great list of very intriguing questions about time and space. My speculations on this also tend toward the idea that space “is capable of potentially accommodating all seven dimensions.” I lean this way because these seven dimensions co-exist within the master universe and the master universe exists within space, which is a transcendental reality (cf. 105:7.14) that is neither infinite nor absolute.

Space is not infinite, even though it takes origin from Paradise; not absolute, for it is pervaded by the Unqualified Absolute. We do not know the absolute limits of space, but we do know that the absolute of time is eternity. 12:5.2

The master universe is described as having a definite three-dimensional form; pervaded space extends from near peripheral Paradise to some distance beyond the fourth outer space level. While we might wonder if the master universe has more than three spatial dimensions, this sort of hypothesis now seems very speculative, based upon the latest evidence. The European Space Agency’s 2013 final report on the Planck mission, which measured the cosmic microwave background radiation, concluded that the space of the observable universe is indistinguishable from the three-dimensional space of Euclidean geometry. (Astrophysicists were expecting the detection of some degree of spacetime curvature, but there is no evidence of any.) This is the same Euclidean space in which we exist and observe the universe. On the basis of both revelation and science, then, it seems reasonably certain that space has three dimensions both in our finite spacetime frame and in the transcendental spacetime frame of the master universe.

There are seven different conceptions of space as it is conditioned by time. Space is measured by time, not time by space. 130:7.6

So, it seems that changes in the reality of time result in seven different realizations of three-dimensional space. We dwell in a space conditioned by the finite reality of time. Paradise is a (non-spatial) place conditioned by the reality of eternity, “the absolute of time.” Between these finite and absolute time-levels there appear to be five transcendental levels, or dimensions, of time-space. This speculation appears consistent with the text, which refers to our ascension from this finite level up through “perfecting levels of the cosmos” until we finally attain the consciousness of “a seven-dimensional universe.”

It must be apparent that universal reality has an expanding and always relative meaning on the ascending and perfecting levels of the cosmos. Ultimately, surviving mortals achieve identity in a seven-dimensional universe. 130:7.7

This idea may possibly be relatable to the distinction between finite mind-perceived time-space and ascending transcendental spirit-perceived time-space levels.
BonitaParticipant
Sep 19, 2017, 8:36 PM
Thanks George. I think I agree with everything you wrote. Nicely written and very understandable.

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